Templar & Necro have been in a very bad spot for 5-6 updates now.

CameraBeardThePirate

i11ionward wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

No need to apologize, @KainedED. I use my phone 60% of the time and am in a constant state of fixing my typos on here haha. More participation is better than worrying about the little things.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post. Imo with some adjustments to the regularly used buffs that necromancer has having brutality, etc, its defensive kit would be much easier to bring in line compared to its offensive kit which has problems just like templars.

One thing I personally liked about Pre-Nerf Oakensoul is that it allowed me to use scythe as a spammable for my necromancer and man did it feel amazing. Taking that option away for me was a real bummer and I'd love to have the ability more used as an alternative to the regular spammables. Really Pre-Nerf Oakensoul allowed everyone with the mythic to be OP and outside of the obvious offenders like Perma Corro DKs, it felt alot more balanced compared to how the game is now.

I've been running this build in pvp for a few days in a row, and damn, I really like Scythe as a spam skill, much better for me than D-Swing. True, there is a problem: sometimes I just don’t hit the person in front of me with my scythe, as far as I understand, this happens due to ping/desync of the game, it’s a little frustrating.

5/12 necro abilities, woof

Alas, if there were alternatives, there would be more class skills.

That's my point haha, necromancer just has 0 options in their class kit. Too many god-awful skills. I hope that didn't come across as taking a shot at you!

TechMaybeHic

i11ionward wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

No need to apologize, @KainedED. I use my phone 60% of the time and am in a constant state of fixing my typos on here haha. More participation is better than worrying about the little things.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post. Imo with some adjustments to the regularly used buffs that necromancer has having brutality, etc, its defensive kit would be much easier to bring in line compared to its offensive kit which has problems just like templars.

One thing I personally liked about Pre-Nerf Oakensoul is that it allowed me to use scythe as a spammable for my necromancer and man did it feel amazing. Taking that option away for me was a real bummer and I'd love to have the ability more used as an alternative to the regular spammables. Really Pre-Nerf Oakensoul allowed everyone with the mythic to be OP and outside of the obvious offenders like Perma Corro DKs, it felt alot more balanced compared to how the game is now.

I've been running this build in pvp for a few days in a row, and damn, I really like Scythe as a spam skill, much better for me than D-Swing. True, there is a problem: sometimes I just don’t hit the person in front of me with my scythe, as far as I understand, this happens due to ping/desync of the game, it’s a little frustrating.

You don't have an execute? With hemorrhage on on ruinous scythe, it helps get kills when they're max health pops back up causing their percentage to drop.

Still; I've felt I've lacked Ooomph when trying Scythe as a spammable

i11ionward

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

No need to apologize, @KainedED. I use my phone 60% of the time and am in a constant state of fixing my typos on here haha. More participation is better than worrying about the little things.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post. Imo with some adjustments to the regularly used buffs that necromancer has having brutality, etc, its defensive kit would be much easier to bring in line compared to its offensive kit which has problems just like templars.

One thing I personally liked about Pre-Nerf Oakensoul is that it allowed me to use scythe as a spammable for my necromancer and man did it feel amazing. Taking that option away for me was a real bummer and I'd love to have the ability more used as an alternative to the regular spammables. Really Pre-Nerf Oakensoul allowed everyone with the mythic to be OP and outside of the obvious offenders like Perma Corro DKs, it felt alot more balanced compared to how the game is now.

I've been running this build in pvp for a few days in a row, and damn, I really like Scythe as a spam skill, much better for me than D-Swing. True, there is a problem: sometimes I just don’t hit the person in front of me with my scythe, as far as I understand, this happens due to ping/desync of the game, it’s a little frustrating.

5/12 necro abilities, woof

Alas, if there were alternatives, there would be more class skills.

That's my point haha, necromancer just has 0 options in their class kit. Too many god-awful skills. I hope that didn't come across as taking a shot at you!

I've been trying to build necro since the start of PTS, after reading a bunch of negative reviews about the necro class set. Unfortunately the most productive build in my opinion is maarselok/master dw/ice vate/dragon's appetite, but such a build leaves no class identity at all. I had to take 2h vate, stuhn's favor and scythe to somehow differentiate myself from a lot of proc clones (haha but I still use proc sets). I've only played BG and I'll say that overall it's not bad, but the more I play the stronger opponents I get (MMR I guess) and what's really missing is a guaranteed stan.

i11ionward

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

No need to apologize, @KainedED. I use my phone 60% of the time and am in a constant state of fixing my typos on here haha. More participation is better than worrying about the little things.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post. Imo with some adjustments to the regularly used buffs that necromancer has having brutality, etc, its defensive kit would be much easier to bring in line compared to its offensive kit which has problems just like templars.

One thing I personally liked about Pre-Nerf Oakensoul is that it allowed me to use scythe as a spammable for my necromancer and man did it feel amazing. Taking that option away for me was a real bummer and I'd love to have the ability more used as an alternative to the regular spammables. Really Pre-Nerf Oakensoul allowed everyone with the mythic to be OP and outside of the obvious offenders like Perma Corro DKs, it felt alot more balanced compared to how the game is now.

I've been running this build in pvp for a few days in a row, and damn, I really like Scythe as a spam skill, much better for me than D-Swing. True, there is a problem: sometimes I just don’t hit the person in front of me with my scythe, as far as I understand, this happens due to ping/desync of the game, it’s a little frustrating.

You don't have an execute? With hemorrhage on on ruinous scythe, it helps get kills when they're max health pops back up causing their percentage to drop.

Still; I've felt I've lacked Ooomph when trying Scythe as a spammable

This is my execute haha.
In all seriousness, it's quite possible that the build is not optimized, but I have fun playing with it.

KainedED

Seems legit

FoJul

Dekrypted wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Arguing with templar mains, is equivalent to fist fighting a brick wall.

The only argument that templar now has, is that there jabs aren't that good. I have seen personally almost 5 different build archetypes working in pvp for plar. They have the best base stat passives in the game. Unique spell damage, minor sorcery, crit damage, and the built in Way of Fire. There's some more but that's just getting started.

They have a unblockable RANGED stun. They have Beam that actually is the best execute in the game. For group play in PvP, Nova (Whatever morph) is mandatory. PotL and PL as much as templars want to cope, have damage. No it's not assassins will damage, but it cant be roll dodged. Even if you block it, it still does a chunk of damage. A simple javelin can enforce this.

I saw someone make a drain health/drain mag build with Dark Flare. That was actually toxic. There are some jab builds that still do unfair damage.

Templar also has the second best Survivability, and in some cases they are the best. A reliable purge, a reliable burst heal, a sustain heal that heals more if you stand in it, a bubble heal that heals every half second (im pretty sure the only heal in the game that does that)

In a 40k hp DK with damage shields, I was hit by a 15k PotL. No this doesn't happen ALL the time, but it shows its possible. If that was my nightblade (less tankier) it would've easily been 17k+.

Jabs, I won't lie is underwhelming. As far as the rest of the class it doesn't need anything else. We already got to see when templar gets 20k delayed burst that has very little counterplay.

The point of my post, is to say Templar is just fine. However, necro is very very underwhelming, and not a single soul can argue with that.

There's just quite a bit in this one post, so I'll respond to the bolded parts I have bolded in the quoted text.

- Nova is primarily used in coordinated group play and was commonly used prior to the adjustment to harmony that removed the synergy damage. I don't recall personally seeing it in my adventures into cyrodiil or ic, but within the context, that's where it was used.

- Prior to its most recent adjustment, Backlash and it's respective morphs was hitting consistently 3-5k and after the recent adjustment lowering the threshold for damage done, you're seeing on average 5-6k on the ability. To see large numbers requires some specific conditions and certain gear, which outside of certain circumstances just is not reliable. The ability is arguably better than it was after its massive nerf, but I've seen whips, on average hit harder than backlash and require alot less work as well as half the time to prepare before firing the ability. On the top end, nightblades can do numbers that I'm still surprised have been curbed and looking at classes like Sorc, necro, and warden, the averages as well as conditions to activate are in a much better situation.

- Survivability in this game can at times be a complex topic to break down and that's mainly how each class handles it. Some classes will heal primarily through hots like templar, some are a bit in the middle leaning into a passive like Battle Roar to cover the tracks like DK, mitigation and other hots as well as some low hp crit healing for cro, nightblade has a combination of escape abilities, a strong burst heal, and some hot potential, and I could continue with the other classes, but I think the point is made. This is a bit of apples to oranges, but typically if a class has alot of hots, they're going to be susceptible to some huge burst damage. Possibly zenimax needs to focus more on class balance as a whole and getting back to basics where counterplay between the classes felt like it had alot more of a focus than it does now. (I would like to add that an arcanist does have heals that can tick at a similar frequency to Living Dark, but when stacking hots on any class, a similar experience can be achieved)

- I'd like to state for the record that I am the templar you're referring to in this interaction with your dragonknight. The dragonknight in question was not using a set like Rallying cry for additional critical resistance and my templar was in a dueling build that can reach as high as 9.6k spell damage, 26k armor penetration, and a whooping 14% crit chance. When I use my mechanical acuity build on a khajiit templar, I don't see these kind of numbers. I see consistently 7-11k. That number is only going to happen if I am able to wail on my opponent for 6 seconds straight, uninterrupted, while using a set that gives me 100% crit chance.


Now I'm not here to discount @FoJul's experience encountering templars and I too agree that jabs is underwhelming. I've stated in previous threads that templar does not feel good right now. Worse before, but just not in a spot where it feels good. Necromancers? Oh man alot of reworks need to be done. The lack of the basic buffs is more than an oversight. Being replaced in PvE by 2 sets is just insane. For a class that players are asked to pay for, a major disservice is being done.

I hope that more classes and forgotten archetypes can be brought up to the level of Hybrid Blade and Dragonknight so we can move on from the endless debate about balance and onto better things. United we stand, apart we fall.

Again, with our differences set aside, I'm not saying templar is OP in any means, I'm simply just comparing it to necro itself.

Templar>Necro by a far shot.

mmtaniac

Templar have zero burst damage, it's hard too play at all in this times. Too much gear depended. People will tell stop using jabs and use something else than i tell than stop using whip on dk and use poop fist no one will do this. No one want to resign from something they like , we want our tools to work as they should , purifying light is Gar'bage ability right now too.
Purge do nothing if people have 6 debuffs for free and your cost are 5-6k magicka. Ok i have good heal but what i can do with heal if i can't counterattack because of my smol not existed damage. This new set is still not good enough, you can't force this nova to attack target you want ,it will attack random person. Pressure is evertyhing in pvp but templar have none of it without proc sets and this is bad thing. This show how bad this class is right now. Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

KainedED

Not going to judge until the final changes are out for this cycle but its not looking too good again.

Think a lot of players especially in the pvp scene are on their last legs for patience with this what can only be described as neglect and complete disregard.

Erikx

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.

lol are you for real? necro is not "fine" Necro is by far the worst class in game. Its horrible actually how low the dps is on that class.

boi_anachronism_

Erikx wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.

lol are you for real? necro is not "fine" Necro is by far the worst class in game. Its horrible actually how low the dps is on that class.

It objectively has the lowest full damage dps in the game currently. It is used almost solely in support roles for trials as either an off tank or a support dps. The skills are clunky and misfire constantly. The class needs help. I put a ton of work into my cro but compared to the others its more frustrating then fun. Love to use him, i really would but it needs an overhaul. Bad.

Turtle_Bot

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

LukosCreyden

I'm voting with my wallet until they get off their butts and actually fix something.
Necromancer is broken, literally broken and needing repair. Templar, for some reason, STILL has that god-awful animation that I am confident even a novice animator could improve upon.

I can't sell crowns anymore anyway, but even if I could, they ain't getting money from me until they actually put some effort into ESO, instead of putting all their manpower into this other mystery game of theirs.

KainedED

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

To be fair sorcs offensive utility via curse and crystal weapom/frag and even overload is pretty strong. One of the most reliable offensive tools in the game.

Sorc is A+ tier in pvp without a doubt in terms of its utility and damage. It could use a sprinkle of healing or mitigation but its borderline S tier

Its a class that does extremely well melding in other weapon line spammables

EDIT:

If the developers genuinely dont play the game enough and dont understand the core functions of their combat thats OK. But at least be willing to listen to commmunity feedback that can reasonably and logically explain

1.) The issue
2.) Solution
3.) potential impacts of the solution
4.) mitigation of risk for intended solution

Being realistic the quality of the combat is this game has degraded substantially since 2016. The game feels clunkier and more twitchy. That extremely satisfying reactionary feeling is mostly gone and most criminally of all the removal of player agency in terms of limits to what they can do with the combat system has taken a lot of the polished feeling away.

Asking for functioning classes in the bare minimum man.

The sad truth is even a 20 year old game like WoW classic has a more polished feeling combat system at this point in terms of flow. ESO was the reigning king of action combat but now its faint echo of what it was.

xDeusEJRx

KainedED wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

To be fair sorcs offensive utility via curse and crystal weapom/frag and even overload is pretty strong. One of the most reliable offensive tools in the game.

Sorc is A+ tier in pvp without a doubt in terms of its utility and damage. It could use a sprinkle of healing or mitigation but its borderline S tier

Its a class that does extremely well melding in other weapon line spammables

I think most of this is true at least potential wise, as opposed to in actuality. A lot of debates on Sorc and nightblade use hypotheticals describing the class. Specifically pointing out potentials that they have. If I were to revamp that statement I'd say it's A tier or borderline S tier potential, but the vast majority of sorc players are proc abusers or just not amazing in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think we should be setting the scale based on potential or the Top tier players alone.

Does sorc have great potential as a class? Yes. Is it an A tier or S tier class? Probably not. The learning curve to be a good sorc is high unless you abuse procs, but ultimately procs work on any and every build.

Turtle_Bot

KainedED wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

To be fair sorcs offensive utility via curse and crystal weapom/frag and even overload is pretty strong. One of the most reliable offensive tools in the game.

Sorc is A+ tier in pvp without a doubt in terms of its utility and damage. It could use a sprinkle of healing or mitigation but its borderline S tier

Sigh... another one that comes in to say "sorc is strong" while completely ignoring that it's 1 specific build only of sorc that is strong and neglecting the reason its strong at all...

It is PROC STAMINA sorcerer that is A-tier with potential to be S-tier (but this also does assume there is a broken proc set to pair with a strong weapon/global ability to bring it to this level such as savage werewolf, way of fire, masters DW, vate destro, maaselok, etc).

Magsorc however is definitely not anywhere near this level of playability or competence or even potential for that matter. That is because Magsorc is defined by its class kit due to the non-class mag options being vastly inferior to the non-class stamina options combined with most magicka based proc sets tend to be weaker than their stamina counter parts due to the imbalance between light and medium armor weights.

A few things to note also:

- Curse is a decent ability, but it suffers every time a cleanse becomes popular (warden, plar, mara's balm, etc).
- Frags is a good single target delayed burst ability, but over the years it has been stripped of a ton of utility and extras that made it viable to run it as the main spammable.
- Weapon is another delayed ability, it used to be strong, but its just mediocre now thanks to the nerfs in U35. Most will seriously consider crushing weapon over it.
- Overload is wonky. The removal of its third bar back in OCT 2018 also severely gutted the class since the class doesn't have the room to slot much of the utility it needs anymore thanks to majority of its kit being 1 dimensional by design and nothing has been given to overload/sorc since then to make up for this. Overload by itself is also not as strong as many like to claim, especially against competent players. It's main "strength" comes from desyncs (see bugs), which would not be happening if the game worked like it's supposed to.

The only thing that's even remotely close to reliable of those mentioned abilities is curse, but it has its downsides of cleanses and being an obvious visual (and sound) indicator of an incoming burst combo. The other abilities all fall to a dodge roll (insanely cheap). These downsides make them all very unreliable against anyone who even remotely knows what they are doing in this game.

I went over it in another thread, but the reason sorc (well stamina) pairs so well with strong weapon abilities/proc sets is because all of sorcs class damage that is viable in PvP is back ended (delayed).
Frags/weapon - delayed burst
Curse - delayed burst
Bound Armaments - delayed burst
Mages Fury - delayed burst
When a weapon ability/proc set that is front loaded becomes strong, then of course sorcerer is going to be a strong class, since that combo of up front pressure and delayed burst rounds out sorcs offensive kit enough to make up for the lack of defensive (healing) options, but as soon as that option is no longer viable, then sorc just falls off again because the class itself is fundamentally flawed and its design is not suited to the current state of ESO combat where a combination of burst and pressure is needed to bring someone down.

This gets compounded heavily by sorcs lack of reliable healing and inability to combine healing with block, dodge, sprint, etc, since once the sorc gets pressured there's no way for them to recover outside of running far away with streak (assuming the enemy is not running any move speed ability, RaT, and/or CC immunity to easily keep up with the fleeing sorc).

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think most of this is true at least potential wise, as opposed to in actuality. A lot of debates on Sorc and nightblade use hypotheticals describing the class. Specifically pointing out potentials that they have. If I were to revamp that statement I'd say it's A tier or borderline S tier potential, but the vast majority of sorc players are proc abusers or just not amazing in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think we should be setting the scale based on potential or the Top tier players alone.

Does sorc have great potential as a class? Yes. Is it an A tier or S tier class? Probably not. The learning curve to be a good sorc is high unless you abuse procs, but ultimately procs work on any and every build.

You're right here, majority of players who play sorc rely on procs to carry them or are so insanely good on the class that they would make any class (even necro) look A+ tier or S tier if they were to switch classes.

If we balance every class and not just sorc based on its potential and the top 1% of players of those classes, then every other class would be getting extremely harsh nerfs and NB in particular would never have been given any of the buffs it received in the past 18 months.

i11ionward

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

KainedED wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

To be fair sorcs offensive utility via curse and crystal weapom/frag and even overload is pretty strong. One of the most reliable offensive tools in the game.

Sorc is A+ tier in pvp without a doubt in terms of its utility and damage. It could use a sprinkle of healing or mitigation but its borderline S tier

Sigh... another one that comes in to say "sorc is strong" while completely ignoring that it's 1 specific build only of sorc that is strong and neglecting the reason its strong at all...

It is PROC STAMINA sorcerer that is A-tier with potential to be S-tier (but this also does assume there is a broken proc set to pair with a strong weapon/global ability to bring it to this level such as savage werewolf, way of fire, masters DW, vate destro, maaselok, etc).

Magsorc however is definitely not anywhere near this level of playability or competence or even potential for that matter. That is because Magsorc is defined by its class kit due to the non-class mag options being vastly inferior to the non-class stamina options combined with most magicka based proc sets tend to be weaker than their stamina counter parts due to the imbalance between light and medium armor weights.

A few things to note also:

- Curse is a decent ability, but it suffers every time a cleanse becomes popular (warden, plar, mara's balm, etc).
- Frags is a good single target delayed burst ability, but over the years it has been stripped of a ton of utility and extras that made it viable to run it as the main spammable.
- Weapon is another delayed ability, it used to be strong, but its just mediocre now thanks to the nerfs in U35. Most will seriously consider crushing weapon over it.
- Overload is wonky. The removal of its third bar back in OCT 2018 also severely gutted the class since the class doesn't have the room to slot much of the utility it needs anymore thanks to majority of its kit being 1 dimensional by design and nothing has been given to overload/sorc since then to make up for this. Overload by itself is also not as strong as many like to claim, especially against competent players. It's main "strength" comes from desyncs (see bugs), which would not be happening if the game worked like it's supposed to.

The only thing that's even remotely close to reliable of those mentioned abilities is curse, but it has its downsides of cleanses and being an obvious visual (and sound) indicator of an incoming burst combo. The other abilities all fall to a dodge roll (insanely cheap). These downsides make them all very unreliable against anyone who even remotely knows what they are doing in this game.

I went over it in another thread, but the reason sorc (well stamina) pairs so well with strong weapon abilities/proc sets is because all of sorcs class damage that is viable in PvP is back ended (delayed).
Frags/weapon - delayed burst
Curse - delayed burst
Bound Armaments - delayed burst
Mages Fury - delayed burst
When a weapon ability/proc set that is front loaded becomes strong, then of course sorcerer is going to be a strong class, since that combo of up front pressure and delayed burst rounds out sorcs offensive kit enough to make up for the lack of defensive (healing) options, but as soon as that option is no longer viable, then sorc just falls off again because the class itself is fundamentally flawed and its design is not suited to the current state of ESO combat where a combination of burst and pressure is needed to bring someone down.

This gets compounded heavily by sorcs lack of reliable healing and inability to combine healing with block, dodge, sprint, etc, since once the sorc gets pressured there's no way for them to recover outside of running far away with streak (assuming the enemy is not running any move speed ability, RaT, and/or CC immunity to easily keep up with the fleeing sorc).

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think most of this is true at least potential wise, as opposed to in actuality. A lot of debates on Sorc and nightblade use hypotheticals describing the class. Specifically pointing out potentials that they have. If I were to revamp that statement I'd say it's A tier or borderline S tier potential, but the vast majority of sorc players are proc abusers or just not amazing in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think we should be setting the scale based on potential or the Top tier players alone.

Does sorc have great potential as a class? Yes. Is it an A tier or S tier class? Probably not. The learning curve to be a good sorc is high unless you abuse procs, but ultimately procs work on any and every build.

You're right here, majority of players who play sorc rely on procs to carry them or are so insanely good on the class that they would make any class (even necro) look A+ tier or S tier if they were to switch classes.

If we balance every class and not just sorc based on its potential and the top 1% of players of those classes, then every other class would be getting extremely harsh nerfs and NB in particular would never have been given any of the buffs it received in the past 18 months.

What do you think of Malcolm's Mage Sorc build (Mighty Chudan, Crafty Alfiq, Wretched Vitality)? I find this build quite competitive, it's certainly not S tier, but A tier for sure.

Turtle_Bot

i11ionward wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

KainedED wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

To be fair sorcs offensive utility via curse and crystal weapom/frag and even overload is pretty strong. One of the most reliable offensive tools in the game.

Sorc is A+ tier in pvp without a doubt in terms of its utility and damage. It could use a sprinkle of healing or mitigation but its borderline S tier

Sigh... another one that comes in to say "sorc is strong" while completely ignoring that it's 1 specific build only of sorc that is strong and neglecting the reason its strong at all...

It is PROC STAMINA sorcerer that is A-tier with potential to be S-tier (but this also does assume there is a broken proc set to pair with a strong weapon/global ability to bring it to this level such as savage werewolf, way of fire, masters DW, vate destro, maaselok, etc).

Magsorc however is definitely not anywhere near this level of playability or competence or even potential for that matter. That is because Magsorc is defined by its class kit due to the non-class mag options being vastly inferior to the non-class stamina options combined with most magicka based proc sets tend to be weaker than their stamina counter parts due to the imbalance between light and medium armor weights.

A few things to note also:

- Curse is a decent ability, but it suffers every time a cleanse becomes popular (warden, plar, mara's balm, etc).
- Frags is a good single target delayed burst ability, but over the years it has been stripped of a ton of utility and extras that made it viable to run it as the main spammable.
- Weapon is another delayed ability, it used to be strong, but its just mediocre now thanks to the nerfs in U35. Most will seriously consider crushing weapon over it.
- Overload is wonky. The removal of its third bar back in OCT 2018 also severely gutted the class since the class doesn't have the room to slot much of the utility it needs anymore thanks to majority of its kit being 1 dimensional by design and nothing has been given to overload/sorc since then to make up for this. Overload by itself is also not as strong as many like to claim, especially against competent players. It's main "strength" comes from desyncs (see bugs), which would not be happening if the game worked like it's supposed to.

The only thing that's even remotely close to reliable of those mentioned abilities is curse, but it has its downsides of cleanses and being an obvious visual (and sound) indicator of an incoming burst combo. The other abilities all fall to a dodge roll (insanely cheap). These downsides make them all very unreliable against anyone who even remotely knows what they are doing in this game.

I went over it in another thread, but the reason sorc (well stamina) pairs so well with strong weapon abilities/proc sets is because all of sorcs class damage that is viable in PvP is back ended (delayed).
Frags/weapon - delayed burst
Curse - delayed burst
Bound Armaments - delayed burst
Mages Fury - delayed burst
When a weapon ability/proc set that is front loaded becomes strong, then of course sorcerer is going to be a strong class, since that combo of up front pressure and delayed burst rounds out sorcs offensive kit enough to make up for the lack of defensive (healing) options, but as soon as that option is no longer viable, then sorc just falls off again because the class itself is fundamentally flawed and its design is not suited to the current state of ESO combat where a combination of burst and pressure is needed to bring someone down.

This gets compounded heavily by sorcs lack of reliable healing and inability to combine healing with block, dodge, sprint, etc, since once the sorc gets pressured there's no way for them to recover outside of running far away with streak (assuming the enemy is not running any move speed ability, RaT, and/or CC immunity to easily keep up with the fleeing sorc).

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think most of this is true at least potential wise, as opposed to in actuality. A lot of debates on Sorc and nightblade use hypotheticals describing the class. Specifically pointing out potentials that they have. If I were to revamp that statement I'd say it's A tier or borderline S tier potential, but the vast majority of sorc players are proc abusers or just not amazing in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think we should be setting the scale based on potential or the Top tier players alone.

Does sorc have great potential as a class? Yes. Is it an A tier or S tier class? Probably not. The learning curve to be a good sorc is high unless you abuse procs, but ultimately procs work on any and every build.

You're right here, majority of players who play sorc rely on procs to carry them or are so insanely good on the class that they would make any class (even necro) look A+ tier or S tier if they were to switch classes.

If we balance every class and not just sorc based on its potential and the top 1% of players of those classes, then every other class would be getting extremely harsh nerfs and NB in particular would never have been given any of the buffs it received in the past 18 months.

What do you think of Malcolm's Mage Sorc build (Mighty Chudan, Crafty Alfiq, Wretched Vitality)? I find this build quite competitive, it's certainly not S tier, but A tier for sure.

it's ok, it's too squishy though (especially if you're playing with any sort of lag/ping/delay).

It's an old school build and it works if you're a top tier sorc player like Malcolm, but it doesn't keep up with the current levels of burst, especially with how shields work and scale.

NB loves to see this build because to them its free AP (especially gankers who can kill with a single AW cast), same with DK since they go corrosive and their whips instantly bring you to execute range.

Hardened ward being less than 7k even with nearly 50k max magicka and bastion CP combined with 28k health (barely getting above 30k after max DDF stacks and casting hardened ward to proc the expert summoner passive is just not enough).

DDF also takes too long to ramp up (60 seconds) to its full potential, great if you can get the combat bug, but sitting at 25k health (like for example riding to a fight or shield goes down because its only 7k is begging to get ganked by incap into spec bow 1 shot.

I'd much rather run something similar to the max health build with draugrkin + wretched, get 40k health, 27k-30k resistances and still have an 11k ward, enough sustain with wretched + dark conversion, with draugrkin somewhat making up for the lost damage.

EDIT: in the hands of a top player such as Malcolm, the build is potentially B+ to A tier, but for an average player (or someone playing with lag/ping/delay), its barely B tier. Wards just don't make up for the raw defense provided by blocking, max health and proper heals that can all be combined at the same time.

Turtle_Bot

All of these builds are just far inferior to Masters DW + Vate combo though and that's the issue, there's only 1 build that is truly strong on sorc and it's only the 1 meta proc build that every class also runs.

Cast_El

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

All of these builds are just far inferior to Masters DW + Vate combo though and that's the issue, there's only 1 build that is truly strong on sorc and it's only the 1 meta proc build that every class also runs.

No. I play gathe mother+rally cry+engine guardian. Ranged shock staff/bow. This is very strong without any proc set. Just stay away from melee range

Proc build are a cancer for PvP.
That's so boring and frustrating. And no proc campaign is not an option: CP are desabled and not enough good player to fight against

Cast_El

Sorc need dark deal to be instant. Anyway, this is a thread about templar and Necro being weak, not other classes

i11ionward

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

All of these builds are just far inferior to Masters DW + Vate combo though and that's the issue, there's only 1 build that is truly strong on sorc and it's only the 1 meta proc build that every class also runs.

But you do realise that if Masters DW + Vate are nerfed, after a while the community will find a new meta build that will annoy everyone again. Though that's certainly no reason not to balance.
Personally the thing that annoys me most about Masters DW is the 20 second action time, that's a lot for a DoT of that strength. Would 10 seconds be enough? In second place is that Masters DW is spam + DoT in one skill, but I can live with that.
I don't consider Vate to be a very strong proc, it's just a combination of a good proc and a strong Elemental Susceptibility skill. I think Elemental Susceptibility should at least get a manacost, and maybe reduce the duration to 15-20 seconds.

CameraBeardThePirate

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

You're right here, majority of players who play sorc rely on procs to carry them or are so insanely good on the class that they would make any class (even necro) look A+ tier or S tier if they were to switch classes.

This. I could go into a BG right now on Necro and go 15-0 or better with relative ease, but that doesn't mean the class is good at all - I'd be relying on procs and my own comfort and knowledge on the class.

Sorc is in a similar spot to Templar and Necro. As bad? Maybe, maybe not - you either rely on proc sets as a stam sorc or rely on spamming executes to steal kills as a magsorc. They have some of the best tools in the game (namely Streak) but at the end of the day their damage is limited to proc sets, RNG, and executes.

The difference, in my humble opinion, is that Sorc would need fewer tweaks than say, Necro, to get to a good spot. They already have great tools to work with, but they need a little TLC.

mmtaniac

Most of POTL's are maximnum 3-4k damage chance to deal 15k is minimal ,first it's almost impossible to collect that much damage in those 6seconds.
Second most of our damage is reduced by easy to get buffs like Major Evasion or minor evasion and Undeath. Our spammable do nothing.

Turtle_Bot

Dekrypted wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

KainedED wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

To be fair sorcs offensive utility via curse and crystal weapom/frag and even overload is pretty strong. One of the most reliable offensive tools in the game.

Sorc is A+ tier in pvp without a doubt in terms of its utility and damage. It could use a sprinkle of healing or mitigation but its borderline S tier

Sigh... another one that comes in to say "sorc is strong" while completely ignoring that it's 1 specific build only of sorc that is strong and neglecting the reason its strong at all...

It is PROC STAMINA sorcerer that is A-tier with potential to be S-tier (but this also does assume there is a broken proc set to pair with a strong weapon/global ability to bring it to this level such as savage werewolf, way of fire, masters DW, vate destro, maaselok, etc).

Magsorc however is definitely not anywhere near this level of playability or competence or even potential for that matter. That is because Magsorc is defined by its class kit due to the non-class mag options being vastly inferior to the non-class stamina options combined with most magicka based proc sets tend to be weaker than their stamina counter parts due to the imbalance between light and medium armor weights.

A few things to note also:

- Curse is a decent ability, but it suffers every time a cleanse becomes popular (warden, plar, mara's balm, etc).
- Frags is a good single target delayed burst ability, but over the years it has been stripped of a ton of utility and extras that made it viable to run it as the main spammable.
- Weapon is another delayed ability, it used to be strong, but its just mediocre now thanks to the nerfs in U35. Most will seriously consider crushing weapon over it.
- Overload is wonky. The removal of its third bar back in OCT 2018 also severely gutted the class since the class doesn't have the room to slot much of the utility it needs anymore thanks to majority of its kit being 1 dimensional by design and nothing has been given to overload/sorc since then to make up for this. Overload by itself is also not as strong as many like to claim, especially against competent players. It's main "strength" comes from desyncs (see bugs), which would not be happening if the game worked like it's supposed to.

The only thing that's even remotely close to reliable of those mentioned abilities is curse, but it has its downsides of cleanses and being an obvious visual (and sound) indicator of an incoming burst combo. The other abilities all fall to a dodge roll (insanely cheap). These downsides make them all very unreliable against anyone who even remotely knows what they are doing in this game.

I went over it in another thread, but the reason sorc (well stamina) pairs so well with strong weapon abilities/proc sets is because all of sorcs class damage that is viable in PvP is back ended (delayed).
Frags/weapon - delayed burst
Curse - delayed burst
Bound Armaments - delayed burst
Mages Fury - delayed burst
When a weapon ability/proc set that is front loaded becomes strong, then of course sorcerer is going to be a strong class, since that combo of up front pressure and delayed burst rounds out sorcs offensive kit enough to make up for the lack of defensive (healing) options, but as soon as that option is no longer viable, then sorc just falls off again because the class itself is fundamentally flawed and its design is not suited to the current state of ESO combat where a combination of burst and pressure is needed to bring someone down.

This gets compounded heavily by sorcs lack of reliable healing and inability to combine healing with block, dodge, sprint, etc, since once the sorc gets pressured there's no way for them to recover outside of running far away with streak (assuming the enemy is not running any move speed ability, RaT, and/or CC immunity to easily keep up with the fleeing sorc).

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think most of this is true at least potential wise, as opposed to in actuality. A lot of debates on Sorc and nightblade use hypotheticals describing the class. Specifically pointing out potentials that they have. If I were to revamp that statement I'd say it's A tier or borderline S tier potential, but the vast majority of sorc players are proc abusers or just not amazing in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think we should be setting the scale based on potential or the Top tier players alone.

Does sorc have great potential as a class? Yes. Is it an A tier or S tier class? Probably not. The learning curve to be a good sorc is high unless you abuse procs, but ultimately procs work on any and every build.

You're right here, majority of players who play sorc rely on procs to carry them or are so insanely good on the class that they would make any class (even necro) look A+ tier or S tier if they were to switch classes.

If we balance every class and not just sorc based on its potential and the top 1% of players of those classes, then every other class would be getting extremely harsh nerfs and NB in particular would never have been given any of the buffs it received in the past 18 months.

I'm only just attempting to catch up on this thread now. Shouldn't this post be it's own thread? Like bro, it says Templar and Necromancer in the title.

I play one and am aware of its issues, but like the NB main (Who doesnt even play templar) that came in here who tried to say that Templar is fine because they got hit by a rare 15k potl while the entire thread is talking about issues, time and place...

I apologise for side tracking as far as I did, that was never my intention. I was simply trying to emphasize the point I highlighted in my post that that person replied to, that proc builds should not be used when considering balance discussions for classes because any class can use those proc builds, which is relevant for all 3 classes, sorc, necro and plar.

Unfortunately as you can see from the reply to my comment that I then replied to, it didn't take long for someone to jump up and down claiming that sorc is OP (equal to DK/NB) because of the 1 proc set build.

As for its own thread, there were countless of them made and all but 1 got completely ignored by the devs and the one that did get a dev response, the response was simply to say "the devs see sorc as fine and not in need of any changes" (right before they announced the changes for U37).
Unfortunately all of the sorc threads ended up the same way with mains of other classes (usually NB mains) coming in to claim that sorc is super OP and needs more nerfs (usually quoting the 1 proc build), typically baiting/bashing until they got the thread shut down or the sorc mains and those who were trying to have a reasonable discussion just left the thread because it wasn't worth the headaches that these others were constantly creating.

VinnyGambini

mmtaniac wrote: »

Most of POTL's are maximnum 3-4k damage chance to deal 15k is minimal ,first it's almost impossible to collect that much damage in those 6seconds.
Second most of our damage is reduced by easy to get buffs like Major Evasion or minor evasion and Undeath. Our spammable do nothing.

Its impossible to deal maximum Potl dmg. For your info Potl needs 36k dmg to reach its 200% boost. When somebody is marked with Potl, he will block, roll dodge and you will deal maxium 10k. Not to mention, you have only 5s to reach this 36k, so you need like 7k dps - while jabs are hitting 4k. Skill is useable only with ranged build, when you use meteor+javelin combo. It adds like 4k dmg to the burst and thats all. Its nowhere close to for example molten whip or assasins will.

CameraBeardThePirate

Dekrypted wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

KainedED wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Proc set should't be remedium to every balance problems.

This, right here.

Getting real sick of everyone saying "sorc is strong right now" when in actuality its the current meta proc build of masters DW, vate destro, dragons appetite, maarselok that is completely carrying the class and masking the glaring issues the class has.

To be fair sorcs offensive utility via curse and crystal weapom/frag and even overload is pretty strong. One of the most reliable offensive tools in the game.

Sorc is A+ tier in pvp without a doubt in terms of its utility and damage. It could use a sprinkle of healing or mitigation but its borderline S tier

Sigh... another one that comes in to say "sorc is strong" while completely ignoring that it's 1 specific build only of sorc that is strong and neglecting the reason its strong at all...

It is PROC STAMINA sorcerer that is A-tier with potential to be S-tier (but this also does assume there is a broken proc set to pair with a strong weapon/global ability to bring it to this level such as savage werewolf, way of fire, masters DW, vate destro, maaselok, etc).

Magsorc however is definitely not anywhere near this level of playability or competence or even potential for that matter. That is because Magsorc is defined by its class kit due to the non-class mag options being vastly inferior to the non-class stamina options combined with most magicka based proc sets tend to be weaker than their stamina counter parts due to the imbalance between light and medium armor weights.

A few things to note also:

- Curse is a decent ability, but it suffers every time a cleanse becomes popular (warden, plar, mara's balm, etc).
- Frags is a good single target delayed burst ability, but over the years it has been stripped of a ton of utility and extras that made it viable to run it as the main spammable.
- Weapon is another delayed ability, it used to be strong, but its just mediocre now thanks to the nerfs in U35. Most will seriously consider crushing weapon over it.
- Overload is wonky. The removal of its third bar back in OCT 2018 also severely gutted the class since the class doesn't have the room to slot much of the utility it needs anymore thanks to majority of its kit being 1 dimensional by design and nothing has been given to overload/sorc since then to make up for this. Overload by itself is also not as strong as many like to claim, especially against competent players. It's main "strength" comes from desyncs (see bugs), which would not be happening if the game worked like it's supposed to.

The only thing that's even remotely close to reliable of those mentioned abilities is curse, but it has its downsides of cleanses and being an obvious visual (and sound) indicator of an incoming burst combo. The other abilities all fall to a dodge roll (insanely cheap). These downsides make them all very unreliable against anyone who even remotely knows what they are doing in this game.

I went over it in another thread, but the reason sorc (well stamina) pairs so well with strong weapon abilities/proc sets is because all of sorcs class damage that is viable in PvP is back ended (delayed).
Frags/weapon - delayed burst
Curse - delayed burst
Bound Armaments - delayed burst
Mages Fury - delayed burst
When a weapon ability/proc set that is front loaded becomes strong, then of course sorcerer is going to be a strong class, since that combo of up front pressure and delayed burst rounds out sorcs offensive kit enough to make up for the lack of defensive (healing) options, but as soon as that option is no longer viable, then sorc just falls off again because the class itself is fundamentally flawed and its design is not suited to the current state of ESO combat where a combination of burst and pressure is needed to bring someone down.

This gets compounded heavily by sorcs lack of reliable healing and inability to combine healing with block, dodge, sprint, etc, since once the sorc gets pressured there's no way for them to recover outside of running far away with streak (assuming the enemy is not running any move speed ability, RaT, and/or CC immunity to easily keep up with the fleeing sorc).

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think most of this is true at least potential wise, as opposed to in actuality. A lot of debates on Sorc and nightblade use hypotheticals describing the class. Specifically pointing out potentials that they have. If I were to revamp that statement I'd say it's A tier or borderline S tier potential, but the vast majority of sorc players are proc abusers or just not amazing in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think we should be setting the scale based on potential or the Top tier players alone.

Does sorc have great potential as a class? Yes. Is it an A tier or S tier class? Probably not. The learning curve to be a good sorc is high unless you abuse procs, but ultimately procs work on any and every build.

You're right here, majority of players who play sorc rely on procs to carry them or are so insanely good on the class that they would make any class (even necro) look A+ tier or S tier if they were to switch classes.

If we balance every class and not just sorc based on its potential and the top 1% of players of those classes, then every other class would be getting extremely harsh nerfs and NB in particular would never have been given any of the buffs it received in the past 18 months.

I'm only just attempting to catch up on this thread now. Shouldn't this post be it's own thread? Like bro, it says Templar and Necromancer in the title.

I play one and am aware of its issues, but like the NB main (Who doesnt even play templar) that came in here who tried to say that Templar is fine because they got hit by a rare 15k potl while the entire thread is talking about issues, time and place...

I apologise for side tracking as far as I did, that was never my intention. I was simply trying to emphasize the point I highlighted in my post that that person replied to, that proc builds should not be used when considering balance discussions for classes because any class can use those proc builds, which is relevant for all 3 classes, sorc, necro and plar.

Unfortunately as you can see from the reply to my comment that I then replied to, it didn't take long for someone to jump up and down claiming that sorc is OP (equal to DK/NB) because of the 1 proc set build.

As for its own thread, there were countless of them made and all but 1 got completely ignored by the devs and the one that did get a dev response, the response was simply to say "the devs see sorc as fine and not in need of any changes" (right before they announced the changes for U37).
Unfortunately all of the sorc threads ended up the same way with mains of other classes (usually NB mains) coming in to claim that sorc is super OP and needs more nerfs (usually quoting the 1 proc build), typically baiting/bashing until they got the thread shut down or the sorc mains and those who were trying to have a reasonable discussion just left the thread because it wasn't worth the headaches that these others were constantly creating.

It'd be nice of Zenimax would communicate

FTFY

mmtaniac

As a templar we just can't decide when and how use our burst we have burst that is mostly dictated by our team or enemy if enemy have buffs his more durable if his not distracted than his less viable to our burst. This is is not controllable things compared to other classes burst ,on sorc i just click on curse and it explode with whole damage after 6 seconds on templar i need to charge my burst to charge it i need to be effective in damage dealing. If im not effective than it's useless before changes to one target my team could charge this skill right now it's not possible to deal damage. POTL need complete rework and make it first unpurgable second change how damage it's stacking maybe damage stacking is doubled you deal your 100% damage and stacking is doubled not your damage on target. Only Charging. Second option is just change this to from me release skill that i need to charge first by dealing damage too enemy ,something similiar too ultimate. You need to charge it and realease somehow. Grim focus is something like that. But templar one can be different realease form that. We need more skills with eclipse motif in templar skills so they can add something with it. More Shadowy skills.

gariondavey

Potl should just be a 6 second curse

mmtaniac

You can't deal damage while playing templar without potl but at the same time potl need too be charged by good damage to deal damage ,it's just absurd mechanic.

TechMaybeHic

Whats wrong with a bust ability that requires you to fill with damage and practically impossible to do enough to make it match other burst abilities while also being purgeable? Seems perfectly reasonable

/s