Templar & Necro have been in a very bad spot for 5-6 updates now.

KainedED

I’m going to be honest, this seems extremely unacceptable from a consumer standpoint. As much as I really enjoy the game I really feel like my time is being wasted.

We’re talking about a span of almost a year and some change of abysmal conditions for these two classes who barely feel intact when compared to something like Dragon Knight or Night Blade who have continued to receive drastic changes since update 35.

There are a lot of folks like me who main these classes who enjoy the fantasy they bring and theme, I dont want to be the next DK or NB I simply want to know that the development team for this game understands just how bad the current design for these classes are, and how abysmal they are to play at the moment and that it has been this way for several months to a year now.

A simple acknowledgment is all we want to give us at least a minimal amount of hope that these classes are being looked at.

Cloudrest

Don't worry. It'll only be another 5-6 more updates before they're buffed and before DK/NB are nerfed.

propertyOfUndefined

Hear hear...

Normally, I do my best to keep negative criticism to myself. I come from a software development background, and like to think I'm more sympathetic than most when it comes to dev teams. I am finding it extremely difficult to bite my tongue these days though. The changes being made are one head-scratcher after another, and it feels like if I don't speak up, the downward spiral will continue.

Are we feeling the effects of the microsoft acquisition? Is this the result of a slower-than-normal return-to-office post-pandemic? Both?

Hoping this team can get its act together as I love the game and have enjoyed it immensely for many years.

CameraBeardThePirate

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Hear hear...

Normally, I do my best to keep negative criticism to myself. I come from a software development background, and like to think I'm more sympathetic than most when it comes to dev teams. I am finding it extremely difficult to bite my tongue these days though. The changes being made are one head-scratcher after another, and it feels like if I don't speak up, the downward spiral will continue.

Are we feeling the effects of the microsoft acquisition? Is this the result of a slower-than-normal return-to-office post-pandemic? Both?

Hoping this team can get its act together as I love the game and have enjoyed it immensely for many years.

Speaking up won't change anything either - your wallet will.

Urvoth

Cloudrest wrote: »

Don't worry. It'll only be another 5-6 more updates before they're buffed and before DK/NB are nerfed.

And the “buff” will just be 60% damage bonus on skulls up from 50%

boi_anachronism_

This is really an apples and oranges thing and i really dont get it. Dk is strong to exceptional in every kind of game play in almost every role. Pvp, solo, full damage dps, support dps, tanking. Its good in 4 man and essential in 12 man... the list goes on. Nb is exceptional in exactly one area. Pvp. Its trash in 12 man, like you dont/can't bring it to serious comps at all and its ok in 4 man. Necro sees more use in 12 man. All of its skills are designed around pvp which is why it draws so much hate but overall its not even close to dk.
Not by any stretch of the imagination. They have buffed it because pre 35 it hadnt gotten anything useful in ages and was literally binned for group content. The class was utterly devastated during the elswyer patch (look up those patch notes if you think they have never seen hard nerfs lol) and didnt recover for a long long time.

That said i 💯 think the necro seriously needs to be looked at far and above every other class, yes templars as well but necros have been in the bin dps wise for absolutely ages, heck they are 6 feet in the ground under the bin. They are simply not viable beyond buff and support. full damage crow is a joke.Its skills are clunky and buggy and it makes the rotation wierd and frankly not enjoyable to play. I rarely hear someone say they love necros as a class but that they have to use it for the sake of group comp.

Urvoth

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

This is really an apples and oranges thing and i really dont get it. Dk is strong to exceptional in every kind of game play in almost every role. Pvp, solo, full damage dps, support dps, tanking. Its good in 4 man and essential in 12 man... the list goes on. Nb is exceptional in exactly one area. Pvp. Its trash in 12 man, like you dont/can't bring it to serious comps at all and its ok in 4 man. Necro sees more use in 12 man. All of its skills are designed around pvp which is why it draws so much hate but overall its not even close to dk.
Not by any stretch of the imagination. They have buffed it because pre 35 it hadnt gotten anything useful in ages and was literally binned for group content. The class was utterly devastated during the elswyer patch (look up those patch notes if you think they have never seen hard nerfs lol) and didnt recover for a long long time.

That said i 💯 think the necro seriously needs to be looked at far and above every other class, yes templars as well but necros have been in the bin dps wise for absolutely ages, heck they are 6 feet in the ground under the bin. They are simply not viable beyond buff and support. full damage crow is a joke.Its skills are clunky and buggy and it makes the rotation wierd and frankly not enjoyable to play. I rarely hear someone say they love necros as a class but that they have to use it for the sake of group comp.

I'm not sure how Necro was designed around pvp when blastbones is the only damage skill that's actually good in pvp, and even then it's quite inconsistent and buggy.

CameraBeardThePirate

Urvoth wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

This is really an apples and oranges thing and i really dont get it. Dk is strong to exceptional in every kind of game play in almost every role. Pvp, solo, full damage dps, support dps, tanking. Its good in 4 man and essential in 12 man... the list goes on. Nb is exceptional in exactly one area. Pvp. Its trash in 12 man, like you dont/can't bring it to serious comps at all and its ok in 4 man. Necro sees more use in 12 man. All of its skills are designed around pvp which is why it draws so much hate but overall its not even close to dk.
Not by any stretch of the imagination. They have buffed it because pre 35 it hadnt gotten anything useful in ages and was literally binned for group content. The class was utterly devastated during the elswyer patch (look up those patch notes if you think they have never seen hard nerfs lol) and didnt recover for a long long time.

That said i 💯 think the necro seriously needs to be looked at far and above every other class, yes templars as well but necros have been in the bin dps wise for absolutely ages, heck they are 6 feet in the ground under the bin. They are simply not viable beyond buff and support. full damage crow is a joke.Its skills are clunky and buggy and it makes the rotation wierd and frankly not enjoyable to play. I rarely hear someone say they love necros as a class but that they have to use it for the sake of group comp.

I'm not sure how Necro was designed around pvp when blastbones is the only damage skill that's actually good in pvp, and even then it's quite inconsistent and buggy.

Wdym? The class with mostly stationary ground abilities and pets that you can't command is absolutely meant for a dynamic and mobile environment like PvP!

lillybit

I do think the teams get tunnel vision to some extent - they think "this needs help" and focus on that to the exclusion of all else, without considering the bigger picture.

One day it'll be templars turn again. One day!

Naftal

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Templar has been buffed and is very good in both pvp and pve. Nightblade and warden are the two worst trial dds.

gariondavey

Naftal wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Templar has been buffed and is very good in both pvp and pve. Nightblade and warden are the two worst trial dds.

Not sure what pvp you are participating in but this is completely untrue.

KainedED

Naftal wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Templar has been buffed and is very good in both pvp and pve. Nightblade and warden are the two worst trial dds.

Templar does not have access to a reliable delayed burst, its offensive skills are literally 40% bad.

See the following skills:
- sunshield
- Jabs
- sunfire
- Solar flare ( solar barrage )
- Restoring Aura
- Backlash

See the following passives:
- Burning Light
- Enduring Rays
- Master ritualist

Thats about a full slill line worth of skills mostly offensive and passives that have near no functionality or are underdeveloped compared to skills like Nightblades concealed weapon.

The recent change to power of the light was good, but realistically in a PvP scenario its still a bad ability when compared to assassins will, shalks, blastbones, deep breath, etc.

The delivery system for our burst ability is so clunky, high risk & low reward that in most cases slotting more passive damage or personal buffs is more beneficial overall. I could easily wager Elemental Susceptibility is more damage than using power of the light

CameraBeardThePirate

Naftal wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Templar has been buffed and is very good in both pvp and pve. Nightblade and warden are the two worst trial dds.

Lol what? Templar is only above Necro in PvP. It has 0 offense outside of coordinated Nova drops and J-Beaming as a healer in the backline.

xDeusEJRx

KainedED wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Templar has been buffed and is very good in both pvp and pve. Nightblade and warden are the two worst trial dds.

Templar does not have access to a reliable delayed burst, its offensive skills are literally 40% bad.

See the following skills:
- sunshield
- Jabs
- sunfire
- Solar flare ( solar barrage )
- Restoring Aura
- Backlash

See the following passives:
- Burning Light
- Enduring Rays
- Master ritualist

Thats about a full slill line worth of skills mostly offensive and passives that have near no functionality or are underdeveloped compared to skills like Nightblades concealed weapon.

The recent change to power of the light was good, but realistically in a PvP scenario its still a bad ability when compared to assassins will, shalks, blastbones, deep breath, etc.

Zenimax logic: Hmm, we buff beam morph by giving it magic restore

Templar is just the beam class(DD wise) and every change is meant to supplement beam only.

KainedED

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

KainedED wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Templar has been buffed and is very good in both pvp and pve. Nightblade and warden are the two worst trial dds.

Templar does not have access to a reliable delayed burst, its offensive skills are literally 40% bad.

See the following skills:
- sunshield
- Jabs
- sunfire
- Solar flare ( solar barrage )
- Restoring Aura
- Backlash

See the following passives:
- Burning Light
- Enduring Rays
- Master ritualist

Thats about a full slill line worth of skills mostly offensive and passives that have near no functionality or are underdeveloped compared to skills like Nightblades concealed weapon.

The recent change to power of the light was good, but realistically in a PvP scenario its still a bad ability when compared to assassins will, shalks, blastbones, deep breath, etc.

Zenimax logic: Hmm, we buff beam morph by giving it magic restore

Templar is just the beam class(DD wise) and every change is meant to supplement beam only.

And thats realistically the problem, its strong during the execute phase but its not fun to play at all. The class used to be pretty fun, its a former shell of what it was and from a design standpoint it seems like an absolute failure.

reazea

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Hear hear...

Normally, I do my best to keep negative criticism to myself. I come from a software development background, and like to think I'm more sympathetic than most when it comes to dev teams. I am finding it extremely difficult to bite my tongue these days though. The changes being made are one head-scratcher after another, and it feels like if I don't speak up, the downward spiral will continue.

Are we feeling the effects of the microsoft acquisition? Is this the result of a slower-than-normal return-to-office post-pandemic? Both?

Hoping this team can get its act together as I love the game and have enjoyed it immensely for many years.

Rudderless is how balance feels now days and has for a couple years. Certainly since U35. It's like they're making changes just to make changes without much rhyme or reason.

TechMaybeHic

I've tried solar barrage to pump more damage but let me ask you this. Would you like solar barrage and 5% damage on class abilities? Or something like deadly cloak that hits a little harder AOE on its own and gives 20% damage reduction to AOEs? Or blood mist giving you about the same damag, a heal for some of the damage, and a movement tool?

I ask this as people will say "oh. You get an unamed buff that stacks with other named ones" but fail to realize there's limited space and better options. That really can apply to most templar abilities.

KainedED

reazea wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Hear hear...

Normally, I do my best to keep negative criticism to myself. I come from a software development background, and like to think I'm more sympathetic than most when it comes to dev teams. I am finding it extremely difficult to bite my tongue these days though. The changes being made are one head-scratcher after another, and it feels like if I don't speak up, the downward spiral will continue.

Are we feeling the effects of the microsoft acquisition? Is this the result of a slower-than-normal return-to-office post-pandemic? Both?

Hoping this team can get its act together as I love the game and have enjoyed it immensely for many years.

Rudderless is how balance feels now days and has for a couple years. Certainly since U35. It's like they're making changes just to make changes without much rhyme or reason.

The design changes since U35 have seen a pretty drastic population decline inside of Cyrodill. I cant speak on much of the rest of the game but I haven't seen it this bad ever and its got a lot of players worried about the future of the game.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I've tried solar barrage to pump more damage but let me ask you this. Would you like solar barrage and 5% damage on class abilities? Or something like deadly cloak that hits a little harder AOE on its own and gives 20% damage reduction to AOEs? Or blood mist giving you about the same damag, a heal for some of the damage, and a movement tool?

I ask this as people will say "oh. You get an unamed buff that stacks with other named ones" but fail to realize there's limited space and better options. That really can apply to most templar abilities.

I would take more AoE damage like deep breath any day all day. Or giving it a pulsing aoe major breach.

In its current variation its ticks are negligible so as a damage ability it fails, its 5% unique buff is tied to templar offensive skills that are mostly pointless or bad.

Necrotech_Master

for me this patch will be a huge buff to my stamplar, as i use jesus beam during execute in pve and it can be difficult to maintain that for a long period due to the smaller mag pool and worse mag recov

i definitely think that necromancer needs help, 100%, its just not fun to play in its current form

Stx

This game is a cash cow. Minimal effort viable product. Ever since update 35 which made the game worse, there has been almost zero effort to improve the classes or balance them. They also haven’t finished the hybridization of stats they started in 2021. The Templar jabs animation looks like something an intern created on their lunch break.

KlauthWarthog

Week 1 of U40 PTS has made it quite clear what the intended role for a templar is - beambot. You get to deal damage on execute, and that is it. Sure, it beats necro, but... that is a very low bar to clear.

OtarTheMad

At least Templar’s offensive skills are slottable. Sure they need attention but the majority of necro offensive abilities are complete crap and are not worth slotting in most content.

Need a pet that get lost and forgets to attack? Cool, you got Skeletal summons and BB. Oh and the damage is inconsistent too. Good luck!

Need a slow spammable that can be insanely easy to dodge? Flame skulls is your go to!

How about a once great skill that could be used in many different ways and is unique… but got stomped on and nerfed to Oblivion… yes? Graveyard come on down! You’re the next contestant on Classes That Are Memes!

Let’s not forget a new set that requires a bone tyrant skill to proc a condition that doesn’t work. Oh and one of the bone tyrant abilities that procs it has one of the unique buffs in minor protection already… and that ability has been broken for some time… yay?

You also got tethers that were a unique idea but don’t work in most content and a corpse system that isn’t super great.

KainedED

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I've tried solar barrage to pump more damage but let me ask you this. Would you like solar barrage and 5% damage on class abilities? Or something like deadly cloak that hits a little harder AOE on its own and gives 20% damage reduction to AOEs? Or blood mist giving you about the same damag, a heal for some of the damage, and a movement tool?

I ask this as people will say "oh. You get an unamed buff that stacks with other named ones" but fail to realize there's limited space and better options. That really can apply to most templar abilities.

Idk Templars offensive kit is pretty bad, the only realistic skill worth slotting is beam as it make up 60% of the templars offensive kit, the other 40% is the ultimate.

Both are equally bad, but at least templar has a very strong defensive kit.

Necro is just suffering on all fronts.

IncultaWolf

OtarTheMad wrote: »

At least Templar’s offensive skills are slottable. Sure they need attention but the majority of necro offensive abilities are complete crap and are not worth slotting in most content.

Need a pet that get lost and forgets to attack? Cool, you got Skeletal summons and BB. Oh and the damage is inconsistent too. Good luck!

Need a slow spammable that can be insanely easy to dodge? Flame skulls is your go to!

How about a once great skill that could be used in many different ways and is unique… but got stomped on and nerfed to Oblivion… yes? Graveyard come on down! You’re the next contestant on Classes That Are Memes!

Let’s not forget a new set that requires a bone tyrant skill to proc a condition that doesn’t work. Oh and one of the bone tyrant abilities that procs it has one of the unique buffs in minor protection already… and that ability has been broken for some time… yay?

You also got tethers that were a unique idea but don’t work in most content and a corpse system that isn’t super great.

Necro IS a meme, go ask any pvp streamer what they think about necromancer, and they will laugh and tell you how bad it is.

OtarTheMad

IncultaWolf wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

At least Templar’s offensive skills are slottable. Sure they need attention but the majority of necro offensive abilities are complete crap and are not worth slotting in most content.

Need a pet that get lost and forgets to attack? Cool, you got Skeletal summons and BB. Oh and the damage is inconsistent too. Good luck!

Need a slow spammable that can be insanely easy to dodge? Flame skulls is your go to!

How about a once great skill that could be used in many different ways and is unique… but got stomped on and nerfed to Oblivion… yes? Graveyard come on down! You’re the next contestant on Classes That Are Memes!

Let’s not forget a new set that requires a bone tyrant skill to proc a condition that doesn’t work. Oh and one of the bone tyrant abilities that procs it has one of the unique buffs in minor protection already… and that ability has been broken for some time… yay?

You also got tethers that were a unique idea but don’t work in most content and a corpse system that isn’t super great.

Necro IS a meme, go ask any pvp streamer what they think about necromancer, and they will laugh and tell you how bad it is.

It really is, it’s so sad because it had potential. My original plan was to retire it from PvP when I got to AR 50, it’s at 41 right now. However, I’ve just grown frustrated with it and retired it early until it’s worth playing again.

boi_anachronism_

So look lets just talk raw numbers for a second, plain old parse numbers. We not talking content damage right now as thing switch up quite a bit there. We are talking maximum possible under ideal circumstances. So with that in mind - At the absolute tippy top end right now based on vids i could find we have:

Sorc: 141k
Blade: 133k+
Templar: 133k+
Arcanist: 133k+
Warden: 131k+
Dk: 130k+

🥁

Necro: 123k+

whats wrong with this picture?

IncultaWolf

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

So look lets just talk raw numbers for a second, plain old parse numbers. We not talking content damage right now as thing switch up quite a bit there. We are talking maximum possible under ideal circumstances. So with that in mind - At the absolute tippy top end right now based on vids i could find we have:

Sorc: 141k
Blade: 133k+
Templar: 133k+
Arcanist: 133k+
Warden: 131k+
Dk: 130k+

🥁

Necro: 123k+

whats wrong with this picture?

Dragonknight needs a buff, obviously

boi_anachronism_

IncultaWolf wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

So look lets just talk raw numbers for a second, plain old parse numbers. We not talking content damage right now as thing switch up quite a bit there. We are talking maximum possible under ideal circumstances. So with that in mind - At the absolute tippy top end right now based on vids i could find we have:

Sorc: 141k
Blade: 133k+
Templar: 133k+
Arcanist: 133k+
Warden: 131k+
Dk: 130k+

🥁

Necro: 123k+

whats wrong with this picture?

Dragonknight needs a buff, obviously

So note the part where i say in content is different. Dks in content damage is actually much higher then a blade in pve by virtue of it being nearly impossible to keep a rotation that puts out that kind of damage, its highly inconsistent, sorcs also perform worse i content then dks. Necro in content is still lower then anything else here by a mile. It performs well as a dps in no situation. At the moment for in content the damage goes closer to:

Arc
Dk
Sorc
Templar
Blade
Warden
Necro

1 & 2 swap occasionally depending on the content.

merpins

I'd be okay with the bad damage if they just reverted the jabs animation, NGL.

boi_anachronism_

merpins wrote: »

I'd be okay with the bad damage if they just reverted the jabs animation, NGL.

In content its not terrible. Its basically middle of the pack. But yeah, the jabs animation needs to go..

sneakymitchell

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.