PTS Update 40 - Feedback Thread for New Class Item Sets

IZZEFlameLash

Class sets seem quite bad for the amount of time wasted on the endless archive thing...

ESO_CenturionPlayer

13,000 views on 250+ comments just on this thread and the final PTS version is still not at all what the players wanted or suggested.

the new sets are below utility compared to many overland or base dungeon sets. this is insane to me. new content is supposed to enticing and exciting. this is the opposite.

another huge let down. why is the direction of the developers so incongruent with that of the player base?

Tannus15

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Class sets seem quite bad for the amount of time wasted on the endless archive thing...

This is kinda the crux of it. For effort vs reward these sets are very underwhelming

OtarTheMad

Tannus15 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Sure, as a meta endgame set Monolith of Storms is garbage but I'd love to see how it operates in Cyrodiil. I think the set is okay for most situations in the game, except leaderboard HM stuff.

not, it's really bad.

it's static aoe that does a small amount of damage every 2 seconds. super easy to avoid and even if it hits the damage isn't impactful.

for most content by the time you have 2 pylons up to start doing damage whatever it is you're trying to damage will be dead. once 3 pylons are spawned you can't spawn any more until the first one times out, so on any sort of mobile fight the pylons will be getting left behind. even if there are multiple targets you can only spawn 1 pylon per second so unless you're spamming lightning splash or lightning form or mages fury on 100% health targets the pylons won't be effective.

if you're running it off your aoe skills like lightning splash or lightning form then the pylons tend to clump up preventing any aoe damage.

the only way i can see to make it work is to manually cast mages fury on 1 target and then cat it on the next target to place your pylons properly. you need to replace the pylons every 10 seconds with method which means you're casting mages fury 2 or 3 times every 10 seconds to keep the pylons up. mages fury does 30% of the damage of a spammable when not in execute so you've sacrificed most of your dps to place the pylons effectively.

seriously, the set sucks.

I know you want to try and have an optimistic or positive spin on it, but i've tried and as it is in PTS right now it's unusable.

If you're looking for a shock themed sorc set I recommend either Overwhelming Surge from Tempest island or Auroran's Thunder from Depths of Malatar.

both sets feel much more in theme than the class set, are easier to use and are honestly just better.

Well, the build I was using was definitely different and unique. I tested it with 5pc Orders Wrath and 2pc Simecraw but I had more health than a typical DPS would, somewhere around 26k-28k... more of a build you'd probably use for tougher fights like EA or World Boss soloing. Closer to the PvP health minimum of 30k.

I also used Streak offensively and I can honestly say I did not have to wait for a Monolith pylon to disappear to get 3 again. If I had 3 up and streaked again one of the Pylons would be replaced and with the usage of Streak it meant I was stunning them exactly where I wanted them. So the 3 could be up as long as I wanted. You obviously have to be careful with this kind of play because of the Streak penalty but it's possible. You Streak-LA-Force Pulse-Mage Fury-Streak-LA-Force-Maybe Encase-Fury-Streak. You can use Wall of Storms as a DoT and I used Atronach as an Ult. You can do whatever rotation, I suck at those but I am just saying this is what I did, and had no issues with World Bosses or anything PvE I tried on the PTS.

PvP Cyrodiil might be different because players aren't as stupid as NPC's, they don't stay stunned or immobilized so I could see where the set could be less useful and basically crap but hard to tell until this hits live and people get their hands on it.

I don't really do dungeons, at least not a lot, so I wouldn't really be able to get those sets in Tempest Island or Depths of Malatar anytime soon. I am not saying the set is top-tier, it's far from it... but it has a place as a set that is useful in the right situation/build.

Lalothen

I am so, so disappointed. I'll perhaps do EA for furnishings and the DK set - just because why not - but this shiny new content is DOA for me. I think it's going to be DOA for a lot of people once they realise how mediocre the class sets are; why is anyone going to waste their time grinding for them when they can go pick up better 5-piece sets from a guild vendor or craft them?

Talk about failure to captilise on new content to energise the ESO community.............

OtarTheMad wrote: »

PvP Cyrodiil might be different because players aren't as stupid as NPC's, they don't stay stunned or immobilized so I could see where the set could be less useful and basically crap but hard to tell until this hits live and people get their hands on it.

It has no execute or vicinity scaling, is static, only tics once every 2s and what damage it does do would be further blunted by evasion. Being honest, I doubt it can even outdamage the 2s heal from Necro's Spirit Guardian. I'm sure folk will give it a try in PvP, but I just don't see how it can make a meaningful contribution - especially when you can go craft a set that will work with any sorc skill rather than being forced to slot specific ones to get any use out of it.

I don't really do dungeons, at least not a lot, so I wouldn't really be able to get those sets in Tempest Island or Depths of Malatar anytime soon. I am not saying the set is top-tier, it's far from it... but it has a place as a set that is useful in the right situation/build.

Tempest Island is actually pretty straightforward to solo, so I think acquiring a set of Overwhelming Surge would be quicker and easier than grinding out Monolith. I get it if dungeons aren't your thing, but EA is basically a dungeon with some enemy rng & linear difficulty scaling thrown in, so you - or anyone else - looking for a shock-themed set to use in PvP would honestly be better off doing Tempest. Your choice though obviously!

Tannus15

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't really do dungeons, at least not a lot, so I wouldn't really be able to get those sets in Tempest Island or Depths of Malatar anytime soon. I am not saying the set is top-tier, it's far from it... but it has a place as a set that is useful in the right situation/build.

solo normal tempest island is significantly easier and takes about as long as arc 1 of EA.
plus you'll get 4 body peices and a weapon/jewel per run vs 1 item from EA.

As for using monolith on your build, i'm not sure what to say. your build certainly is unique.
i recommend trying the same thing with literally any proc set in the game. red mountain for instance. I'd wager good money you'd get better results.

Galeriano

I have a strange feeling ZoS doesn't care that much about the feedback since class sets will be dropping from base game not from paid DLC content.

ZhuJiuyin

Galeriano wrote: »

I have a strange feeling ZoS doesn't care that much about the feedback since class sets will be dropping from base game not from paid DLC content.

Indeed, I have also wondered if because this is free content, they don't care about our feedback.
But looking at the changes they made to other class sets, in contrast, sorc's relative deprivation is very serious, and sorc's feedback is basically ignored. (Improve proc conditions, increase damage, give additional buffs, etc.)

In fact, according to the latest tests, Monolith of Storms can compete (at least in terms of damage) with Whorl of the Depths by simply increasing the damage given by the 5 items bonus by 1.5 times.
Why are they not even willing to give sorc a buff such as simply adjusting the bonus parameters?

Monolith of Storms has "NO ANY CHANGES" since PTS
In addition to bug fixes, Monolith of Storms received 0 changes!

ESO_CenturionPlayer

i find the outgoing communication from the team these days to be very cringe.

i’ll never forget watching the live stream announcing ToT thinking… who even wanted this? Are they doing it because it’s super easy to make and put in game or is it what players actually want? the chat was blowing up with negative reactions and those reactions never got better.

they act like everything is going to be amazing publicly when their player base is indicating they don’t want what is being pushed on us.

why is there such a disconnect?

OtarTheMad

Tannus15 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't really do dungeons, at least not a lot, so I wouldn't really be able to get those sets in Tempest Island or Depths of Malatar anytime soon. I am not saying the set is top-tier, it's far from it... but it has a place as a set that is useful in the right situation/build.

solo normal tempest island is significantly easier and takes about as long as arc 1 of EA.
plus you'll get 4 body peices and a weapon/jewel per run vs 1 item from EA.

As for using monolith on your build, i'm not sure what to say. your build certainly is unique.
i recommend trying the same thing with literally any proc set in the game. red mountain for instance. I'd wager good money you'd get better results.

Me using Monolith really depends on if the class sets are bind on pickup or you can sell them. If you can sell them then I’d just buy the sets but if you can’t then I’ll just stick with the build I have now which works fine.

RaptorRodeoGod

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

i find the outgoing communication from the team these days to be very cringe.

i’ll never forget watching the live stream announcing ToT thinking… who even wanted this? Are they doing it because it’s super easy to make and put in game or is it what players actually want? the chat was blowing up with negative reactions and those reactions never got better.

they act like everything is going to be amazing publicly when their player base is indicating they don’t want what is being pushed on us.

why is there such a disconnect?

"These days"

You mean always?

katorga

Where monolith will shine is PVP ball groups. Think about it:

3 stationary pillars, 28m tethers, aoe dot, with a "per target" 2s cooldown to calculate. Multiply by X number of sorcs
in the pack spamming their execute. The calculations and server/clients chatter will be monumental. It will dramatically increase the lag bubble that follows ball groups around.

Nebs

katorga wrote: »

Where monolith will shine is PVP ball groups. Think about it:

3 stationary pillars, 3x28m tethers, aoe dot, with a per target 2s cooldown to calculate. Multiply by X number of sorcs
in the pack spamming their execute. The calculations and server/clients chatter will be monumental. It will dramatically increase the lag bubble that follows ball groups around.

That's probably part of the reason a target can only be affected by one set at a time. A shame though that it's not "a player" can only be affected by one of these at a time, but with that 28m range and the way so many of these sets work is seems the class sets are all directed at PVP despite their arena source.

acastanza_ESO

katorga wrote: »

Where monolith will shine is PVP ball groups. Think about it:

3 stationary pillars, 28m tethers, aoe dot, with a "per target" 2s cooldown to calculate. Multiply by X number of sorcs
in the pack spamming their execute. The calculations and server/clients chatter will be monumental. It will dramatically increase the lag bubble that follows ball groups around.

No ballgroup will give up their optimization to run something as straight up bad as this set.

Twohothardware

I'm honestly not excited for any of these sets. None of them are going to shift the current meta because the devs are afraid to release something too strong.

katorga

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Where monolith will shine is PVP ball groups. Think about it:

3 stationary pillars, 28m tethers, aoe dot, with a "per target" 2s cooldown to calculate. Multiply by X number of sorcs
in the pack spamming their execute. The calculations and server/clients chatter will be monumental. It will dramatically increase the lag bubble that follows ball groups around.

No ballgroup will give up their optimization to run something as straight up bad as this set.

the server lag it will cause will be more useful than any damage the set doesn't do. It is a freebie on top of the optimized role of a sorc.

acastanza_ESO

katorga wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Where monolith will shine is PVP ball groups. Think about it:

3 stationary pillars, 28m tethers, aoe dot, with a "per target" 2s cooldown to calculate. Multiply by X number of sorcs
in the pack spamming their execute. The calculations and server/clients chatter will be monumental. It will dramatically increase the lag bubble that follows ball groups around.

No ballgroup will give up their optimization to run something as straight up bad as this set.

the server lag it will cause will be more useful than any damage the set doesn't do. It is a freebie on top of the optimized role of a sorc.

It really isn't. The proc condition is so bad that it just doesn't work that way. And it'd involve giving up a much more useful set. There is precisely zero reason for anyone in any role in any group to slot this set.

Tannus15

pretty sure @katorga is joking.

Tannus15

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't really do dungeons, at least not a lot, so I wouldn't really be able to get those sets in Tempest Island or Depths of Malatar anytime soon. I am not saying the set is top-tier, it's far from it... but it has a place as a set that is useful in the right situation/build.

solo normal tempest island is significantly easier and takes about as long as arc 1 of EA.
plus you'll get 4 body peices and a weapon/jewel per run vs 1 item from EA.

As for using monolith on your build, i'm not sure what to say. your build certainly is unique.
i recommend trying the same thing with literally any proc set in the game. red mountain for instance. I'd wager good money you'd get better results.

Me using Monolith really depends on if the class sets are bind on pickup or you can sell them. If you can sell them then I’d just buy the sets but if you can’t then I’ll just stick with the build I have now which works fine.

it's BOP and probably the most grind of all sets in the game to get.

OtarTheMad

Tannus15 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't really do dungeons, at least not a lot, so I wouldn't really be able to get those sets in Tempest Island or Depths of Malatar anytime soon. I am not saying the set is top-tier, it's far from it... but it has a place as a set that is useful in the right situation/build.

solo normal tempest island is significantly easier and takes about as long as arc 1 of EA.
plus you'll get 4 body peices and a weapon/jewel per run vs 1 item from EA.

As for using monolith on your build, i'm not sure what to say. your build certainly is unique.
i recommend trying the same thing with literally any proc set in the game. red mountain for instance. I'd wager good money you'd get better results.

Me using Monolith really depends on if the class sets are bind on pickup or you can sell them. If you can sell them then I’d just buy the sets but if you can’t then I’ll just stick with the build I have now which works fine.

it's BOP and probably the most grind of all sets in the game to get.

Well, if that's the case and I figured it was I have a build now that works good and will continue to so no worries on that. I still think the set can be useful in some builds/situations but can say for such a grind that EA is... I doubt any set is worth it when the sets we all have right now work well.

Lalothen

I like how the promotional content that's been published talks about "Powerful new class sets" and I'm here like "Other than the DK set, [snip] are they talking about?" [snip]

[edited for bashing]

mmtaniac

Wrathsun is too random. I need option to decide when and where i use nova from this set. Right now it's set in style of "Fu.. that one skeleon in the corner with 5% hp"

ESO_CenturionPlayer

Lalothen wrote: »

I like how the promotional content that's been published talks about "Powerful new class sets" and I'm here like "Other than the DK set, [snip] are they talking about?" [snip]

It feels like there is more time spent on marketing and moderating than developing a desirable product.

[edited to remove quote]

CameraBeardThePirate

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

Lalothen wrote: »

I like how the promotional content that's been published talks about "Powerful new class sets" and I'm here like "Other than the DK set, [snip] are they talking about?" [snip]

It feels like there is more time spend on marketing and moderating than developing a desirable product.

You feel that way because that's the truth lol

[edited to remove quote]

ZhuJiuyin

Basically there is no change in sorc class set
In this PTS, except for Monolith of Storms, all other class sets have received significant changes.
Why do feedback on sorc always get no response?

Tannus15

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Basically there is no change in sorc class set
In this PTS, except for Monolith of Storms, all other class sets have received significant changes.
Why do feedback on sorc always get no response?

it's worth noting that people were raising serious issues with the set from week 1. it's not like there are no changes because the set is good or even functional

Vaqual

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Basically there is no change in sorc class set
In this PTS, except for Monolith of Storms, all other class sets have received significant changes.
Why do feedback on sorc always get no response?

If it is any consolation, the changes on the other sets were definitively a mixed bag and not necessarily reflecting feedback either.

katorga

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Where monolith will shine is PVP ball groups. Think about it:

3 stationary pillars, 28m tethers, aoe dot, with a "per target" 2s cooldown to calculate. Multiply by X number of sorcs
in the pack spamming their execute. The calculations and server/clients chatter will be monumental. It will dramatically increase the lag bubble that follows ball groups around.

No ballgroup will give up their optimization to run something as straight up bad as this set.

the server lag it will cause will be more useful than any damage the set doesn't do. It is a freebie on top of the optimized role of a sorc.

It really isn't. The proc condition is so bad that it just doesn't work that way. And it'd involve giving up a much more useful set. There is precisely zero reason for anyone in any role in any group to slot this set.

Remember the no-proc tests for server performance? How many proc sets did ZOS modify to simplify server calculations?

Monolith by virtue of its overly complicated mechanics and proc conditions is exactly the sort of proc set that exacerbates server load. IMO it seems ridiculously calculation intensive for cyrodil:

• did player use lighting direct damage or dot
• if dot, is it 5th tick
• place and track where monolith location
• is there another monolith within 28m
• where are tethers in xyz axis between monoliths
• how many clients are in range of tethers
• For each client in range, has client been damaged by the tether in the last 2s

Tannus15

katorga wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Where monolith will shine is PVP ball groups. Think about it:

3 stationary pillars, 28m tethers, aoe dot, with a "per target" 2s cooldown to calculate. Multiply by X number of sorcs
in the pack spamming their execute. The calculations and server/clients chatter will be monumental. It will dramatically increase the lag bubble that follows ball groups around.

No ballgroup will give up their optimization to run something as straight up bad as this set.

the server lag it will cause will be more useful than any damage the set doesn't do. It is a freebie on top of the optimized role of a sorc.

It really isn't. The proc condition is so bad that it just doesn't work that way. And it'd involve giving up a much more useful set. There is precisely zero reason for anyone in any role in any group to slot this set.

Remember the no-proc tests for server performance? How many proc sets did ZOS modify to simplify server calculations?

Monolith by virtue of its overly complicated mechanics and proc conditions is exactly the sort of proc set that exacerbates server load. IMO it seems ridiculously calculation intensive for cyrodil:

• did player use lighting direct damage or dot
• if dot, is it 5th tick
• place and track where monolith location
• is there another monolith within 28m
• where are tethers in xyz axis between monoliths
• how many clients are in range of tethers
• For each client in range, has client been damaged by the tether in the last 2s

i mean, just look at the known issues:

Monolith of Storms:
This set currently ignores Line of Sight checks and can damage enemies through walls.
The damage from this set does not currently aggro enemies.

just tracking where the monoliths are and whose monolith it is and if it should have a LOS issue or if a mob is under attack.

All to get a set working that is bad. So depressing.
Imagine being the guy trying to fix that set how disheartening to read the feedback for it...

You finally get it doing what it's meant to do and then read a thread pointing out the many other issues with it and how no one wants to use it.

Meanwhile the nightblade guy is all "oh, i just put a damage % on the skill line and went to lunch"

Turtle_Bot

@ZOS_Kevin I know you're busy and I (and many others) appreciate all you do here to try and communicate with us, but as you can see from this thread (the official feedback thread for class sets) and the countless other threads here on the forums, the sorcerer class set Monolith of Storms is still a complete mess and it is going to go live in such a state that it is not worth running the new content for this set.

Every other set got either huge changes (complete reworks) to them despite minimal feedback for those sets except to point out glaring imbalance/oversight issues (such as DK getting both heroism buffs and necro set not working with tether skills) or the changes made were directly in line with the feedback given, yet the sorcerer set despite having some of the highest amount of feedback including parse numbers, combat metrics and ideas proposed to make the set useful while keeping its original design, has been completely ignored and is being left to go live in a state that is effectively saying that sorcerers should just not bother to do the new endless archive content at all.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Basically there is no change in sorc class set
In this PTS, except for Monolith of Storms, all other class sets have received significant changes.
Why do feedback on sorc always get no response?

With the set being in the state that it is in, it has given us players the feeling that the team is effectively telling all sorc mains that they are not welcome in new content and combined with the state of the class outside of specifically pet builds (which a large number of sorcs don't like being forced to use), this set and the seemingly comparatively little amount of work put into it** compared to the other class sets just feels like a huge targeted, and frankly speaking, spiteful, middle finger to sorc players, especially since there was so much good, data based feedback provided for the set and a huge number of different options presented in that feedback that gave ideas that would have helped make the set at least usable for this patch while a longer term fix was worked on for the set and/or the skill line it is supposed to represent.

**Note:

• I want you to know that we realise that a lot of work has been put into fixing the issues with critical strike etc with the set, but it needs to be understood that from an outside perspective, the work done to monolith of storms seems very limited compared to many sets that either got a complete rework to how they function or the changes made to those other sets were much closer to the given feedback regarding those other sets, hence why sorcerer players are feeling the way they do about Monolith of Storms and the perceived attitude of the team towards sorcerer in general.

I also understand that @ZOS_GinaBruno recently asked about how to better communicate with us, the player base, keeping this in mind, I would consider asking to maybe encourage the team to reach out to some class mains that aren't just on the stream team or on the in house teams to open a dialogue.
I know this will be daunting for the sorcerer class in particular, since there are theoretically so many different ways the class could be played, but I'm sure there are many of us that would be more than willing to donate some time to sit down and lay out the issues of the class we as players have with it, find out why we the players see the class so differently to how the team sees it and what can be done to help bridge that gap.

I also understand that you don't want to distract the dev team from their jobs developing the game, so at the bare minimum, putting out a thread where the team takes an hour or 2 to sit down with the community managers and list out their visions for each class and the directions they see the class going in and where they want to take each class would help a lot.
This would go a long way to helping create constructive dialogue, where players can understand where the team is coming from with the different classes and their visions for the classes and can provide more information to the team about the classes to give the team more perspectives and use cases for each class that may not have been considered by the team in their visions to better help creating an understanding in how each class is being played for different content and how to best address issues for those classes in that content while keeping the dev teams visions, but allowing for a direction for the classes to be taken that better aligns the dev teams visions with the communities expectations.

@ZOS_Kevin I hope you can take the time to read this (I know its long) as well as the many sorc/monolith of storms threads here on the forums (particularly the PTS section of the forums). Please everyone, understand that this comment (and those threads) is not intended to bash on anyone, but to try and put forward some reasons as to why there is such discourse regarding this set (Monolith of Storms) and the sorcerer class in general in the hopes of getting some clarifications and hopefully lead to creating an understanding between sorcerer players and the dev team to better understand both sides of this so that we can hopefully all get to be on the same page regarding the class, its direction, the teams visions for it and the sorcerer players expectations of it to get those better aligned.

P.S. sorry Kevin for the double ping, you did state on another thread though that maybe an additional ping is required to get your attention considering how busy you are.