PTS Update 40 - Feedback Thread for Infinite Archive

code65536

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

So other than a few tweaks around the edges, EA is going to go live the way it was in 9.2.0, thanks, got it...

Why even bother having a feedback thread if you are not even going to implement any of the feedback?

Is this your first PTS? You typically don't see much in the even weeks, and it's usually the odd weeks (3, 5) that have the most substantial changes. Week 2 usually contain simple fixes or changes that were already in the pipeline when PTS launched.

Toxic_Hemlock

code65536 wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

So other than a few tweaks around the edges, EA is going to go live the way it was in 9.2.0, thanks, got it...

Why even bother having a feedback thread if you are not even going to implement any of the feedback?

Is this your first PTS? You typically don't see much in the even weeks, and it's usually the odd weeks (3, 5) that have the most substantial changes. Week 2 usually contain simple fixes or changes that were already in the pipeline when PTS launched.

Actually yes, as this was the first PTS I cared enough to watch. There might have been others I commented on, but I didn't care so much about them.

Thanks though, here's hoping they do more work in 9.2.2.

Edit: clarity

FantasticFreddie

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

So other than a few tweaks around the edges, EA is going to go live the way it was in 9.2.0, thanks, got it...

Why even bother having a feedback thread if you are not even going to implement any of the feedback?

Is this your first PTS? You typically don't see much in the even weeks, and it's usually the odd weeks (3, 5) that have the most substantial changes. Week 2 usually contain simple fixes or changes that were already in the pipeline when PTS launched.

Actually yes, as this was the first PTS I cared enough to watch. There might have been others I commented on, but I didn't care so much about them.

Thanks though, here's hoping they do more work in 9.2.2.

Edit: clarity

Yeah I am amazed they changed corrosive armor and the DK set. Usually you see some UI fixes, and corrected spellings in NPC dialog on week 2.

tomofhyrule

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

So other than a few tweaks around the edges, EA is going to go live the way it was in 9.2.0, thanks, got it...

Why even bother having a feedback thread if you are not even going to implement any of the feedback?

I'll just enjoy the jewelry crafting update and not bother until next year when the 2% of people that are left playing it move on to other games. What a waste of an opportunity, I was looking forward to it last month.

Edit: spelling

You... do realize that feedback usually takes a bit of time to implement, right?

I know people can have their issues with the amount of feedback that is taken in the first place, but the PTS has always been set up that the X.X.1 patch addresses pretty well just the known issues from the X.X.0 update. Most feedback needs to be taken, processed, and then implemented, which is a two week cycle.

Everyone who is a regular here knows that the even weeks of PTS don't contain much. Most of the biggest changes come on week 3 with the X.X.2 patch.

OtarTheMad

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

So other than a few tweaks around the edges, EA is going to go live the way it was in 9.2.0, thanks, got it...

Why even bother having a feedback thread if you are not even going to implement any of the feedback?

I'll just enjoy the jewelry crafting update and not bother until next year when the 2% of people that are left playing it move on to other games. What a waste of an opportunity, I was looking forward to it last month.

Edit: spelling

You... do realize that feedback usually takes a bit of time to implement, right?

I know people can have their issues with the amount of feedback that is taken in the first place, but the PTS has always been set up that the X.X.1 patch addresses pretty well just the known issues from the X.X.0 update. Most feedback needs to be taken, processed, and then implemented, which is a two week cycle.

Everyone who is a regular here knows that the even weeks of PTS don't contain much. Most of the biggest changes come on week 3 with the X.X.2 patch.

To be fair, lately the patch notes during all weeks have been pretty empty. We will see though, week 3 will hopefully be good.

RaddlemanNumber7

Leader board pay outs. This sweetens the deal somewhat.

I received 2 pay outs in the mail, one for solo and one for "with Companion". I assume both were the minimum since I didn't get out of Arc 1.

The two rewards were the same, a gold piece of the Warden's set with a random trait and a trans crystal that split into 10 gems.

So, two leader board rewards, per character, per week?

FantasticFreddie

Companion really ought to be counted in the solo leaderboard. Or make a third leaderboard.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Posted this in another thread but just so you all are aware as well, we are planning to make some adjustments to the difficulty curve in next week's PTS patch. Thanks for all the feedback so far and keep it coming!

CheeseTuber

My main feedback is that I really wish there was a way to save our progress. I can't spend hours reaching the double-digit Arcs.

thepandalore

Fall damage from the Lord Warden boss mechanics doesn't seem to be avoidable at the moment. I/we had the neat little animation and everything, still died specifically to fall damage.

Dagoth_Rac

Trials did not have Normal and Veteran versions when they came out. Maelstrom had no ability to save progress when it came out. Set drops were stingy and rare in dungeons when they first came out. You could not share bound gear with groupmates for 2 hours. You had to queue for Cyrodiil and ride halfway across the province to get to Imperial City when it came out. New functionality and quality of life has been added to content in the past. So, I am hoping some of these suggestion for Endless Archive can one day be added, even if getting them in during PTS and before live launch is not likely.

1). Ironman Leaderboard mode: Leaderboard that will always start from beginning with no buffs or perks or anything like that. A clean slate with everyone on same playing field, and you just push as deep as you can. You have a life/threads limit.

2). Progression Leaderboard mode: A separate Leaderboard. You start from the highest Arc you have reached but not cleared. If in a duo, the highest arc in common that you reached but not cleared. I am not sure how verses and visions and buffs like that will work but that does not seem crucial to idea. In this one, for Leaderboard, starting at arc 12 and getting to arc 13 will be no different than starting at arc 10 and getting to arc 13. You got to arc 13 is what counts. You have a life/threads limit.

3). Exploration mode: No leaderboard. You go into a library and there are books you can read to take you to different arcs. The books will be unreadable if you have never reached that arc. If in a duo, you need to have both reached arc before for book to be readable. The books are just one possible UI. Maybe you have a Watcher NPC who lists arcs and choose the one to jump to based on dialog. A key point of this is you do not just pick up where you left off. You pick an arc to customize the difficulty to what you are in the mood for. Once you clear arc, you move on to next arc, but no matter how far you progress, it does not count toward leaderboard. You do not have a life/threads limit.

4). Static mode: No leaderboard. Just like Exploration mode above, but you never go to next arc. When you finish an arc, you automatically start the same arc over. RNG will still apply so you will likely see different enemies with each repeat of arc, but difficulty will not ramp up. Ideal if you and a buddy want to pick something not too easy and not too hard and just stick with that. You do not have a life/threads limit.

prof-dracko

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

3). Exploration mode: No leaderboard. You go into a library and there are books you can read to take you to different arcs. The books will be unreadable if you have never reached that arc. If in a duo, you need to have both reached arc before for book to be readable. The books are just one possible UI. Maybe you have a Watcher NPC who lists arcs and choose the one to jump to based on dialog. A key point of this is you do not just pick up where you left off. You pick an arc to customize the difficulty to what you are in the mood for. Once you clear arc, you move on to next arc, but no matter how far you progress, it does not count toward leaderboard. You do not have a life/threads limit.

This bit gave me an idea. A little side area where, once you've encountered a boss in the main run, you can summon and fight whichever ones you want. No rewards, just pick a boss and practice. It'd alleviate some of the issues with learning mechanics plus it'd be fun for people who aren't that invested in actually running EA to brush up or blow off steam on a particular enemy.

code65536

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Posted this in another thread but just so you all are aware as well, we are planning to make some adjustments to the difficulty curve in next week's PTS patch. Thanks for all the feedback so far and keep it coming!

@ZOS_GinaBruno I've been reading the replies in this thread since the first day of PTS, and while there are people like me who think that the early arcs are boring and pointless, there seem to be even more voices saying the opposite, that they are having difficulty clearing even Arc 1.

I'm thus wary of shifts in the difficulty. Make the earlier stuff harder, and it might satisfy the veteran players (though will they get more rewards for that earlier difficulty? the other common refrain here is that the rewards are pitiful), but it'll impact accessibility for many.

I really think that the best thing to do, which will satisfy players across the entire spectrum, is to just cut out one trash stage per cycle. The trash stages are, frankly, meaningless, as they offer absolutely no net reward (you get a verse at the end, but you consumed the verse from the previous stage). It will make the earlier "boring" phase shorter for veteran players, and for people who are struggling to clear the earlier content, at least it won't take them as long to get back to whatever it was that stumped them.

And for veteran players in the later arcs, the trash stages are just slow grinds against bullet sponges who have too much health. Therefore, the single most important thing that you can do to improve the experience across the board is to trim down on this unnecessary filler.

kojou

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Posted this in another thread but just so you all are aware as well, we are planning to make some adjustments to the difficulty curve in next week's PTS patch. Thanks for all the feedback so far and keep it coming!

Thanks for the update. Please keep in mind it is not just the difficulty curve, but the amount of "trash" that you have to clear before you get to a boss fight. Boss fights are by far the best part of any dungeon including this one and given that this one is effectively endless there is no reason to have as many trash rounds before you get to a boss.

IMO it should be 1 round of trash, 1 boss, repeat. I think that will fix the rate of reward complaint (more bosses = more currency) and reduce the non-fun grind complaint since less time will be spent killing stuff that rewards nothing.

thepandalore

In general, this is some of the most fun I've had in the game, and I would personally change very little aside from the odd bug fix here and there. If it's truly meant to be endless, 9.2.1's slow upward difficulty curve makes score pushing as much test of patience and endurance as anything else. The only difficulty adjustments I could consider appropriate at the moment are minor. It'd be nice to see a slight upgrade in the presence of a couple elite or dangerous foes in each verse for a greater variety of threat for support-biased players to manage. A slight downgrade on the Ruinach score boss when it appears at the 55k score mark could be appropriate if that's the direction you want to take the EA. While tanking that boss in particular, its casts per minute felt slightly higher than other score bosses I've encountered, possibly because one of its skills simply lasts longer than the skills of other bosses, leaving less time between its scripted actions. On the other hand, and this is my personal opinion, a jarring encounter like that as early as a 55k score has the effect of raising the stakes, and fun-factor, of the whole experience, so I'd honestly recommend slightly decreasing the time between casts on the other score bosses, leaving the Ruinach as it is.

Overall 10/10, will play more later

Toxic_Hemlock

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Posted this in another thread but just so you all are aware as well, we are planning to make some adjustments to the difficulty curve in next week's PTS patch. Thanks for all the feedback so far and keep it coming!

Thanks for the update, it is nice to get feedback.

So long as I can do the daily associated with EA, I will be happy. I don't want a challenge, I just want to be able to have a bit of fun TBH.

Capricas_Kirito

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Posted this in another thread but just so you all are aware as well, we are planning to make some adjustments to the difficulty curve in next week's PTS patch. Thanks for all the feedback so far and keep it coming!

I'll join the others in saying thanks for the update, and for letting us know that something is in the pipeline.

I would also add my support to the idea of removing one wave from the trash stages. But I also question the decision to make the spawn of the waves triggered by time as opposed to location. This is a departure from every other single dungeon, trial, and delve in the game. (Maybe it's a feature of "Rouge Like" games, I am not familiar with that genre.) Switching back to the tried and true spawn trigger of location will, in my opinion, solve most of the issues surrounding the time to grind through easier content. The highly skilled trifecta runners (aka Sweaty End Gamers) will be able to zip to the end of the stage and burn everything down in one pile. Casual players like me will have the option to proceed a little slower to let our resources regen The only places I see this being an issue are the stages where everything spawns in the same location but perhaps those areas could be reserved for higher arcs.

Anywho... I ran Endless Archive again today. I didn't expect much in the way of changes but I did want to see if I encountered the same types of issues I had before. Made it as far as Arc 1, Cycle 3, Stage 2 without encountering any game breakers, I'll let my commentary in the video speak for itself.

https://youtube.com/live/pqthZDMJJ2A

Tandor

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Posted this in another thread but just so you all are aware as well, we are planning to make some adjustments to the difficulty curve in next week's PTS patch. Thanks for all the feedback so far and keep it coming!

I think what would be especially helpful, and capable of being addressed outside of any patch changes, would be an indication of whether the intention is for Endless Archive to be solely an arena for max level, elite build, players or whether there is any intention to enable casual players of any level to participate in it.

Again, it should be possible outside of any patch changes to indicate whether the intention is to introduce some sort of save or checkpoint facility or whether ZOS remains determined to have the endless aspect completed in one session.

These points address the approach behind the whole thing, and are at the heart of a lot of the feedback provided here. There seems to be a pretty strong consensus that as it currently appears to be designed, it doesn't really work - to the point where nobody much is going to bother with it. It would help to know whether any changes are just going to be tweaks, or whether some major thought is going into redesigning it.

skinnycheeks

This whole "slow progression" thing is a point we've come back to a lot now this PTS. A lot of people have pointed to the 1-3 Stages as the root cause of this. I've seen a lot of good discussion around this today and thought I'd share a few things.

So a common request to help speed things up is to "remove a stage of adds." But why is this an area that players are frequently targeting to speed things up and not the other parts of the archive?

1.) No lasting rewards

Stages 1-3 only offer Verses that benefit you for the following stage. No currency to carry over. No buffs to stay with you throughout. So moving through them feels like filler to get to the part where you actually earn stuff.

2.) Not Much Variety

It didn't take long before the formula was figured out. Big wave > Small Wave > Big Wave. And the number of different enemies used within the 1-3 Stages are pretty limited too. After just a few runs you keep running into the same small mobs and same elites over and over.

3.) Nothing Meaningful Added in 3 Stages vs 1 or 2

The special bonus side rooms are cool, but they could easily pop up just as often only doing 1 or 2 stages before the Cycle boss each time instead of 3 Stages. Other than those, there isn't anything to introduce excitement like that wonder of which boss you'll get, or getting to open a chest of loot that has lasting value. There are verses, yes. But the main verses you end up caring about are just for the Cycle boss, or the ones on the off-chance you get a Marauder. And multiple stages plays no real part in those two things.

So I thought it might be helpful to dig into the WHY of the feeling of slow progression. Instead of just saying "the trash takes too long." If some lasting rewards, more overall variety, or just something more meaningful all together could be added to these, I don't think they would feel like they move so slowly.

oogaboogaoogabooga

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Posted this in another thread but just so you all are aware as well, we are planning to make some adjustments to the difficulty curve in next week's PTS patch. Thanks for all the feedback so far and keep it coming!

Don't forget to adjust marauders lol

Wildberryjack

This is turning out like Torghast in WoW. It was horribly overtuned, had very little rewards, you had few deaths allowed until you were kicked out, there was no way to save progression in case you had to leave or got DCd, and it took way too long to complete! Blizzard had to make some major changes to get anyone to do it other than elite hardcore players. The way it is now is quite different from the beginning. They went from a horrifically low engagement to a decent one, about middle of the road which is what they had wanted in the beginning.

Elvenheart

Wildberryjack wrote: »

This is turning out like Torghast in WoW. It was horribly overtuned, had very little rewards, you had few deaths allowed until you were kicked out, there was no way to save progression in case you had to leave or got DCd, and it took way too long to complete! Blizzard had to make some major changes to get anyone to do it other than elite hardcore players. The way it is now is quite different from the beginning. They went from a horrifically low engagement to a decent one, about middle of the road which is what they had wanted in the beginning.

What were the changes they made?

kojou

Elvenheart wrote: »

Wildberryjack wrote: »

This is turning out like Torghast in WoW. It was horribly overtuned, had very little rewards, you had few deaths allowed until you were kicked out, there was no way to save progression in case you had to leave or got DCd, and it took way too long to complete! Blizzard had to make some major changes to get anyone to do it other than elite hardcore players. The way it is now is quite different from the beginning. They went from a horrifically low engagement to a decent one, about middle of the road which is what they had wanted in the beginning.

What were the changes they made?

I would like to know this as well. This content looks really good on paper, but in its current state on the PTS it will not be very popular. The amount of reward you get in one hour of play is too small, and the trash fights make up for how plentiful they are by being meaningless and boring.

Wildberryjack

Elvenheart wrote: »

Wildberryjack wrote: »

This is turning out like Torghast in WoW. It was horribly overtuned, had very little rewards, you had few deaths allowed until you were kicked out, there was no way to save progression in case you had to leave or got DCd, and it took way too long to complete! Blizzard had to make some major changes to get anyone to do it other than elite hardcore players. The way it is now is quite different from the beginning. They went from a horrifically low engagement to a decent one, about middle of the road which is what they had wanted in the beginning.

What were the changes they made?

They broke it up into shorter wings. Made it scale better with how many players went in and even to your gear level so it wasn't impossible to solo, but it was still challenging so you didn't get bored. Added more character empowerment items along to make it easer for the weaker classes. Added a lot of rewards to get along and at the end. And added ways to extend your death allowance. The only thing they didn't do is add a 'save' feature.

I hated it at first, it was overly hard and had little to offer. Now, I still go in to get the rewards even though we're into another expansion. There are mounts and cosmetics worth having. Sure they're RNG but what isn't in games like this?

AJTC5000

So a very big change that went undocumented in the PTS patch notes was that the special secret buffs that you can purchase from the lobby vendor have now drastically increased prices - the highest now being 30,000 Archival Fortunes, up from 8,000.

Whether the Week 1 prices were placeholder or not, and granted, these are one-time-purchases, but the common sentiment from Week 1 was that the stages and cycle bosses did not feel very rewarding - and this change now makes things feel even less rewarding, requiring a significant increase in the legwork required to obtain them.

maitrescott_ESO

Yolnahkriin has such a small arena for his knock-back. While I can position most of the time to avoid being knocked off the ledge, it is not always possible. While blocking is sufficient for most attacks, there is often not enough time for me to get to a safe area to avoid the worse of the attacks. This boss has been at my 1 4 1 the last two of my plays, ending my progress. Very frustrating boss so early on.

OolongSnakeTea

Even with the balance changes from the latest PTS Patch 9.2.2 -- of arc 1 vs arcs after arc 1 still feels punishing. I should not be punished for wanting to take a break for my game play. I should not feel like I'm glued to a chair because I have not been defeated. I just want to be able to log out, sleep maybe eat, then log back to where I was before. Like I can in other content such as vet-Maelstrom Area (no score) or vet-Vatashran Hallows (no score). I still get the loot and I don't break my hands over something.

I don't get why we are punishing players to grind so hard and force upon them unhealthy gaming habbits by making them play hours and hours on end to get deeper and deeper.

code65536

The Week 3 patch notes are disappointing.

I want to reiterate: YOU SHOULD ELIMINATE ONE OF THE STAGES PER CYCLE.

OtarTheMad

OolongSnakeTea wrote: »

Even with the balance changes from the latest PTS Patch 9.2.2 -- of arc 1 vs arcs after arc 1 still feels punishing. I should not be punished for wanting to take a break for my game play. I should not feel like I'm glued to a chair because I have not been defeated. I just want to be able to log out, sleep maybe eat, then log back to where I was before. Like I can in other content such as vet-Maelstrom Area (no score) or vet-Vatashran Hallows (no score). I still get the loot and I don't break my hands over something.

I don't get why we are punishing players to grind so hard and force upon them unhealthy gaming habbits by making them play hours and hours on end to get deeper and deeper.

^ this

I don’t mind EA having a leaderboard, perfectly fine but you should have a no score option where you can save progress but with the sacrifice of a leaderboard score.

kojou

code65536 wrote: »

The Week 3 patch notes are disappointing.

I want to reiterate: YOU SHOULD ELIMINATE ONE OF THE STAGES PER CYCLE.

I was looking for this change as well... unless they change it then I am not going to do Endless Archive more than a couple times.

The new difficulty scaling sounds like it will just mean that it is harder for mere mortals to get any of the achievements.