Destruction Staff Feedback

Billium813

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

LittlePinkDot

Jazraena wrote: »

As a magsorc PvP main, and at least occasional magsorc PvE player... Ayup. Why bother with a staff now?

I mean, mine is an Imperial even. That Stam option is looking more tempting by the minute.

I love my Dual wield PvP StamSorc!
Shes so fun in Battlegrounds.

ESO_Nightingale

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

f047ys3v3n

"Destruction Staff

Ancient Knowledge
Flame Staff: This passive now increases your damage done by the initial hit of status effects by 250/500, rather than increasing single target damage done by 5/10%."

I don't understand this change. Flame staffs are probably the front bar weapon for fewer PVE and PVP builds now than at any other time in the history of the game. Why remove their passive? Also, don't kid yourself, 500 damage every status effect is essentially nothing. This change is basically a complete removal of the passive. I don't get it, but RIP what few NB and LA sorc DD's still existed. There weren't many, and their damage was already bad, but they are gone now.

ESO_Nightingale

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

"Destruction Staff

Ancient Knowledge
Flame Staff: This passive now increases your damage done by the initial hit of status effects by 250/500, rather than increasing single target damage done by 5/10%."

I don't understand this change. Flame staffs are probably the front bar weapon for fewer PVE and PVP builds now than at any other time in the history of the game. Why remove their passive? Also, don't kid yourself, 500 damage every status effect is essentially nothing. This change is basically a complete removal of the passive. I don't get it, but RIP what few NB and LA sorc DD's still existed. There weren't many, and their damage was already bad, but they are gone now.

500 damage per status effect direct isn't nothing, but it's only good for status effect builds like frost warden that have a ton of sources of application and with charged. but frost warden uses an ice staff so the bonus doesn't help anyone much at all. conclusion is that this is still a terrible change for inferno staff, but the idea of increased status effect damage is actually good as a general concept.

Billium813

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

Billium813

The closest analogy I could find between the current Flame Staff Tri Focus and an existing set is Savage Werewolf

Notice that every time you perform a LA, the Savage Werewolf debuff is applied and every 2 seconds that Savage Werewolf debuff deals 2 damage. The difference is that Savage Werewolf also does damage "instantly".

I think this could also be considered a "bug" of sorts. Unlike the current Tri Focus, which errors on the side of less damage, Savage Werewolf doing the damage "instantly" errors on the side of more damage! If you had PERFECT timing with Savage Werewolf, you could perform another LA at exactly 1.9 seconds on the Savage Werewolf debuff. That would allow you to double dip on the DoT damage! You would get the previous DoT AND the new "instantly" applied DoT.

So, IMO, ZOS has two options to fix the current design

1. Add a cooldown like "This effect can occur every 20 seconds". This has the issue though that any HAs made within that 20 second window aren't re-upping the debuff.
2. Make the initial hit deal damage "instantly". This has the issue though that now it'll be possible where some weaving could actually do MORE damage by either skill or luck. And holding HA constantly will deal more damage then simply letting the DoT play out for 20 seconds.

I think the "instant" damage, initial hit is probably better as long as the DoT damage tick is low and tied to a "long" channel effect, like Fully Charged HA.

ALTERNATIVELY, ZOS could go with a totally different design that is cleaner for a buff that continuously re-applies. Something like Unleashed Ritualist would be a much better, and more interesting design

Perhaps something like "Fully charged Inferno Staff Heavy Attacks Singe the target for 10 seconds. Elemental damage over time effects applied Singed targets are increased by 10%". This might be too involved for the Tri Focus passive tho...

ESO_Nightingale

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Billium813

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Thankfully, you can't/shouldn't spam those abilities, since they cost resources and are NOT spammables. The player is incentivized to pay attention to their Skill timer and players are punished for spamming / re-applying before the timeout is done. Players have cooldowns on Skills and timers that show the player they should/shouldnt use the Skill again. The Player has control here.

HAs and LAs are different, especially with weaving. They fall more into the realm of "Spammable". There is no HUD timer to show this HA timer. Consecutive LA and HA should not be discouraged through bad design. Weaving is baked into the game and should be at the forefront of HA/LA design. Weaving Inferno Staff, with this current design, is skipping every other damage tick of the Inferno Staff Tri Focus passive simply based on this re-applying behavior.

If ZOS does not expect Inferno Staff HA to be weaved then, they should add a GUI display of the timer for HA procs so that the player can track it the same way as Skill Timers.

Soarora

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Thankfully, you can't/shouldn't spam those abilities, since they cost resources and are NOT spammables. The player is incentivized to pay attention to their Skill timer and players are punished for spamming / re-applying before the timeout is done. Players have cooldowns on Skills and timers that show the player they should/shouldnt use the Skill again. The Player has control here.

HAs and LAs are different, especially with weaving. They fall more into the realm of "Spammable". There is no HUD timer to show this HA timer. Consecutive LA and HA should not be discouraged through bad design. Weaving is baked into the game and should be at the forefront of HA/LA design. Weaving Inferno Staff, with this current design, is skipping every other damage tick of the Inferno Staff Tri Focus passive simply based on this re-applying behavior.

If ZOS does not expect Inferno Staff HA to be weaved then, they should add a GUI display of the timer for HA procs so that the player can track it the same way as Skill Timers.

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive are not spammables? Cutting dive is the warden class spammable and frost reach is frost warden spammable. In fact, in parses I’ve seen if frost reach isn’t used as the spmmable… cutting dive or screeching cliffracer is. Personally, I use frost reach as my spammable and it’s amazing.
Just because there’s a DoT doesn’t mean it’s not a spammable, especially in cases where there is upfront damage (ex. Unstable wall can be an AoE spammable due to the explosions).

Billium813

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Thankfully, you can't/shouldn't spam those abilities, since they cost resources and are NOT spammables. The player is incentivized to pay attention to their Skill timer and players are punished for spamming / re-applying before the timeout is done. Players have cooldowns on Skills and timers that show the player they should/shouldnt use the Skill again. The Player has control here.

HAs and LAs are different, especially with weaving. They fall more into the realm of "Spammable". There is no HUD timer to show this HA timer. Consecutive LA and HA should not be discouraged through bad design. Weaving is baked into the game and should be at the forefront of HA/LA design. Weaving Inferno Staff, with this current design, is skipping every other damage tick of the Inferno Staff Tri Focus passive simply based on this re-applying behavior.

If ZOS does not expect Inferno Staff HA to be weaved then, they should add a GUI display of the timer for HA procs so that the player can track it the same way as Skill Timers.

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive are not spammables? Cutting dive is the warden class spammable and frost reach is frost warden spammable. In fact, in parses I’ve seen if frost reach isn’t used as the spmmable… cutting dive or screeching cliffracer is. Personally, I use frost reach as my spammable and it’s amazing.
Just because there’s a DoT doesn’t mean it’s not a spammable, especially in cases where there is upfront damage (ex. Unstable wall can be an AoE spammable due to the explosions).

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive ARE spammables?

I'm pretty sure Subterranean Assault is the Warden stam spammable, right? Granted, I dont play Warden, but I can see how Screaming Cliff Racer is a spammable, not Cutting Dive. A spammable that also has a 10 second DoT sounds terrible. As I already explained, you are leaving alot of damage on the table every time you spam out something like Cutting Dive that resets the DoT each time.

Same thing with Destructive Touch, the Clench morph sounds more applicable to "spammable" then the Reach morph.

I'll grant you that players can "spam" these if they want, but using them that way sounds like a bad rotation. You want your spammable to re-up buffs/debuffs, not reset DoTs. It sounds terribly inefficient and counter to the design. They balance the skills based on duration, DoT damage, AND initial hit. You're essentially only using the initial hit and maybe 1 damage tick? You don't use the duration at all? Just sounds wrong imo.

Soarora

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Thankfully, you can't/shouldn't spam those abilities, since they cost resources and are NOT spammables. The player is incentivized to pay attention to their Skill timer and players are punished for spamming / re-applying before the timeout is done. Players have cooldowns on Skills and timers that show the player they should/shouldnt use the Skill again. The Player has control here.

HAs and LAs are different, especially with weaving. They fall more into the realm of "Spammable". There is no HUD timer to show this HA timer. Consecutive LA and HA should not be discouraged through bad design. Weaving is baked into the game and should be at the forefront of HA/LA design. Weaving Inferno Staff, with this current design, is skipping every other damage tick of the Inferno Staff Tri Focus passive simply based on this re-applying behavior.

If ZOS does not expect Inferno Staff HA to be weaved then, they should add a GUI display of the timer for HA procs so that the player can track it the same way as Skill Timers.

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive are not spammables? Cutting dive is the warden class spammable and frost reach is frost warden spammable. In fact, in parses I’ve seen if frost reach isn’t used as the spmmable… cutting dive or screeching cliffracer is. Personally, I use frost reach as my spammable and it’s amazing.
Just because there’s a DoT doesn’t mean it’s not a spammable, especially in cases where there is upfront damage (ex. Unstable wall can be an AoE spammable due to the explosions).

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive ARE spammables?

I'm pretty sure Subterranean Assault is the Warden stam spammable, right? Granted, I dont play Warden, but I can see how Screaming Cliff Racer is a spammable, not Cutting Dive. A spammable that also has a 10 second DoT sounds terrible. As I already explained, you are leaving alot of damage on the table every time you spam out something like Cutting Dive that resets the DoT each time.

Same thing with Destructive Touch, the Clench morph sounds more applicable to "spammable" then the Reach morph.

I'll grant you that players can "spam" these if they want, but using them that way sounds like a bad rotation. You want your spammable to re-up buffs/debuffs, not reset DoTs. It sounds terribly inefficient and counter to the design. They balance the skills based on duration, DoT damage, AND initial hit. You're essentially only using the initial hit and maybe 1 damage tick? You don't use the duration at all? Just sounds wrong imo.

Sub assault is definitely not a spammable. It’s delayed direct damage. If you spam it, you’ll end up doing no damage because the shalks never pop back up. Cutting dive/screaming cliff racer, no matter morph, 100% is the warden class spammable. Both frost reach and cutting dive have direct upfront damage which is what makes them a spammable. If you were spamming a DoT like entropy from mages guild then yes you’d be right, that’s not a spammable and you’re just wasting time making the DoT tick over and over. But such is not the case here. In a 2-bar rotation or in a multi-large-enemy fight the DoT still sees use for these spammables. Its part of why I love warden so much. Your spammable turns into a DoT while you’re refreshing your other skills and you can easily DoT up multiple enemies. And on your point about clench… frost wardens can’t use clench. Ice clench taunts. Screaming cliff racer is just generally worse to use than frost reach as a spammable, especially when dragonstar ice staff comes into play.

Jazraena

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

As a magsorc PvP main, and at least occasional magsorc PvE player... Ayup. Why bother with a staff now?

I mean, mine is an Imperial even. That Stam option is looking more tempting by the minute.

I love my Dual wield PvP StamSorc!
Shes so fun in Battlegrounds.

I have no doubt Stamsorcs can be fun in PvP.

I just actually wanted to play a mage, not a spellsword, you know?

Billium813

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Thankfully, you can't/shouldn't spam those abilities, since they cost resources and are NOT spammables. The player is incentivized to pay attention to their Skill timer and players are punished for spamming / re-applying before the timeout is done. Players have cooldowns on Skills and timers that show the player they should/shouldnt use the Skill again. The Player has control here.

HAs and LAs are different, especially with weaving. They fall more into the realm of "Spammable". There is no HUD timer to show this HA timer. Consecutive LA and HA should not be discouraged through bad design. Weaving is baked into the game and should be at the forefront of HA/LA design. Weaving Inferno Staff, with this current design, is skipping every other damage tick of the Inferno Staff Tri Focus passive simply based on this re-applying behavior.

If ZOS does not expect Inferno Staff HA to be weaved then, they should add a GUI display of the timer for HA procs so that the player can track it the same way as Skill Timers.

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive are not spammables? Cutting dive is the warden class spammable and frost reach is frost warden spammable. In fact, in parses I’ve seen if frost reach isn’t used as the spmmable… cutting dive or screeching cliffracer is. Personally, I use frost reach as my spammable and it’s amazing.
Just because there’s a DoT doesn’t mean it’s not a spammable, especially in cases where there is upfront damage (ex. Unstable wall can be an AoE spammable due to the explosions).

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive ARE spammables?

I'm pretty sure Subterranean Assault is the Warden stam spammable, right? Granted, I dont play Warden, but I can see how Screaming Cliff Racer is a spammable, not Cutting Dive. A spammable that also has a 10 second DoT sounds terrible. As I already explained, you are leaving alot of damage on the table every time you spam out something like Cutting Dive that resets the DoT each time.

Same thing with Destructive Touch, the Clench morph sounds more applicable to "spammable" then the Reach morph.

I'll grant you that players can "spam" these if they want, but using them that way sounds like a bad rotation. You want your spammable to re-up buffs/debuffs, not reset DoTs. It sounds terribly inefficient and counter to the design. They balance the skills based on duration, DoT damage, AND initial hit. You're essentially only using the initial hit and maybe 1 damage tick? You don't use the duration at all? Just sounds wrong imo.

Sub assault is definitely not a spammable. It’s delayed direct damage. If you spam it, you’ll end up doing no damage because the shalks never pop back up.

I believe Subterranean Assault does damage after 3 seconds, then does additional damage after another 3 seconds when they burrow? 3 seconds is a good window to weave Subterranean Assault. It's just like Stalking Blastbones. And if you spam Cutting Dive, you only get the initial hit, never any DoT damage. If you wait 3 seconds, you get the initial hit and 1 Dot hit. You're still ignoring 90% of the effect by spamming it. So, how is that any different?

With your definition of "spammable", any skill that has initial damage could be considered "spammable". That's a really loose definition IMO. You're essentially ignoring 2/3 of the effects on the skill. What makes me nervous is that players that uses these sort of loose definitions are also the ones that get on the forums and argue that the initial damage hit isnt high enough or that Warden isn't hitting hard enough and skills like Cutting Dive or Destructive Touch need buffed. It sounds like your usage isn't using the whole skill, only part of it. Otherwise, casting a DoT Skill every 20 seconds is hardly a "spammable"

jaws343

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Thankfully, you can't/shouldn't spam those abilities, since they cost resources and are NOT spammables. The player is incentivized to pay attention to their Skill timer and players are punished for spamming / re-applying before the timeout is done. Players have cooldowns on Skills and timers that show the player they should/shouldnt use the Skill again. The Player has control here.

HAs and LAs are different, especially with weaving. They fall more into the realm of "Spammable". There is no HUD timer to show this HA timer. Consecutive LA and HA should not be discouraged through bad design. Weaving is baked into the game and should be at the forefront of HA/LA design. Weaving Inferno Staff, with this current design, is skipping every other damage tick of the Inferno Staff Tri Focus passive simply based on this re-applying behavior.

If ZOS does not expect Inferno Staff HA to be weaved then, they should add a GUI display of the timer for HA procs so that the player can track it the same way as Skill Timers.

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive are not spammables? Cutting dive is the warden class spammable and frost reach is frost warden spammable. In fact, in parses I’ve seen if frost reach isn’t used as the spmmable… cutting dive or screeching cliffracer is. Personally, I use frost reach as my spammable and it’s amazing.
Just because there’s a DoT doesn’t mean it’s not a spammable, especially in cases where there is upfront damage (ex. Unstable wall can be an AoE spammable due to the explosions).

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive ARE spammables?

I'm pretty sure Subterranean Assault is the Warden stam spammable, right? Granted, I dont play Warden, but I can see how Screaming Cliff Racer is a spammable, not Cutting Dive. A spammable that also has a 10 second DoT sounds terrible. As I already explained, you are leaving alot of damage on the table every time you spam out something like Cutting Dive that resets the DoT each time.

Same thing with Destructive Touch, the Clench morph sounds more applicable to "spammable" then the Reach morph.

I'll grant you that players can "spam" these if they want, but using them that way sounds like a bad rotation. You want your spammable to re-up buffs/debuffs, not reset DoTs. It sounds terribly inefficient and counter to the design. They balance the skills based on duration, DoT damage, AND initial hit. You're essentially only using the initial hit and maybe 1 damage tick? You don't use the duration at all? Just sounds wrong imo.

Sub assault is definitely not a spammable. It’s delayed direct damage. If you spam it, you’ll end up doing no damage because the shalks never pop back up.

I believe Subterranean Assault does damage after 3 seconds, then does additional damage after another 3 seconds when they burrow? 3 seconds is a good window to weave Subterranean Assault. It's just like Stalking Blastbones. And if you spam Cutting Dive, you only get the initial hit, never any DoT damage. If you wait 3 seconds, you get the initial hit and 1 Dot hit. You're still ignoring 90% of the effect by spamming it. So, how is that any different?

With your definition of "spammable", any skill that has initial damage could be considered "spammable". That's a really loose definition IMO. You're essentially ignoring 2/3 of the effects on the skill. What makes me nervous is that players that uses these sort of loose definitions are also the ones that get on the forums and argue that the initial damage hit isnt high enough or that Warden isn't hitting hard enough and skills like Cutting Dive or Destructive Touch need buffed. It sounds like your usage isn't using the whole skill, only part of it. Otherwise, casting a DoT Skill every 20 seconds is hardly a "spammable"

That's not a loose definition. Cutting dive is balanced explicitly within Zos' power budget for a spammable.

Sub assault is pretty much the same skill as Curse and Curse is also not a spammable.

Billium813

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Wait, Cutting Dive isn't even a 2 second delay. Even when continuously casting it it (sort of like continuously casting HA), you still get the DoT damage tick because it's every 1 second, not 2. You can't even cast the skill fast enough to NOT get the DoT, rendering this whole example moot.

ESO_Nightingale

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Wait, Cutting Dive isn't even a 2 second delay. Even when continuously casting it it (sort of like continuously casting HA), you still get the DoT damage tick because it's every 1 second, not 2. You can't even cast the skill fast enough to NOT get the DoT, rendering this whole example moot.

What about other dots like crippling grasp, poison injection, blood craze and burning embers? And is that dot you have in your gif actually cutting dive's one? Or is it hemo proc damage? You aren't using any settings that show debuffs on dummies but it makes sense that it could tick faster as it is a 10 second dot. I think i just gave bad examples before.

Soarora

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just FYI, the new Flame Staff Tri Focus passive is bugged.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638247/flame-staff-and-tri-focus

Every time you HA, it re-applies the Tri Focus debuff. However, since the damage only procs every 2 seconds, for 20 seconds, you end up cutting off the damage before it applies. If you are trying to weave HA with the new Flame Staff, the damage is going to be way lower then it should be.


Green is when damage is occurring
Black represents when a new HA occurs, resetting back to the start

If you initiate another HA just before the damage was going to proc, say at second 16.25, you reset the Tri Focus debuff and have to wait ANOTHER 2 seconds for the damage. Meaning you've waited 3.75 seconds, performed HAs, and got no dot damage at all. You might be skipping damage procs every other time when weaving!

Thats not a bug, dots like that tend to start after 2 seconds usually after a big initial hit. in this case I'd assume they see the heavy attack like that.

Can you provide such an example?

When they do DoTs like this, they tend to add "This effect can occur every X seconds" so that it doesn't continuously keep re-applying for this exact reason.

frost reach, cutting dive are examples

Thankfully, you can't/shouldn't spam those abilities, since they cost resources and are NOT spammables. The player is incentivized to pay attention to their Skill timer and players are punished for spamming / re-applying before the timeout is done. Players have cooldowns on Skills and timers that show the player they should/shouldnt use the Skill again. The Player has control here.

HAs and LAs are different, especially with weaving. They fall more into the realm of "Spammable". There is no HUD timer to show this HA timer. Consecutive LA and HA should not be discouraged through bad design. Weaving is baked into the game and should be at the forefront of HA/LA design. Weaving Inferno Staff, with this current design, is skipping every other damage tick of the Inferno Staff Tri Focus passive simply based on this re-applying behavior.

If ZOS does not expect Inferno Staff HA to be weaved then, they should add a GUI display of the timer for HA procs so that the player can track it the same way as Skill Timers.

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive are not spammables? Cutting dive is the warden class spammable and frost reach is frost warden spammable. In fact, in parses I’ve seen if frost reach isn’t used as the spmmable… cutting dive or screeching cliffracer is. Personally, I use frost reach as my spammable and it’s amazing.
Just because there’s a DoT doesn’t mean it’s not a spammable, especially in cases where there is upfront damage (ex. Unstable wall can be an AoE spammable due to the explosions).

Why do you think frost reach and cutting dive ARE spammables?

I'm pretty sure Subterranean Assault is the Warden stam spammable, right? Granted, I dont play Warden, but I can see how Screaming Cliff Racer is a spammable, not Cutting Dive. A spammable that also has a 10 second DoT sounds terrible. As I already explained, you are leaving alot of damage on the table every time you spam out something like Cutting Dive that resets the DoT each time.

Same thing with Destructive Touch, the Clench morph sounds more applicable to "spammable" then the Reach morph.

I'll grant you that players can "spam" these if they want, but using them that way sounds like a bad rotation. You want your spammable to re-up buffs/debuffs, not reset DoTs. It sounds terribly inefficient and counter to the design. They balance the skills based on duration, DoT damage, AND initial hit. You're essentially only using the initial hit and maybe 1 damage tick? You don't use the duration at all? Just sounds wrong imo.

Sub assault is definitely not a spammable. It’s delayed direct damage. If you spam it, you’ll end up doing no damage because the shalks never pop back up.

I believe Subterranean Assault does damage after 3 seconds, then does additional damage after another 3 seconds when they burrow? 3 seconds is a good window to weave Subterranean Assault. It's just like Stalking Blastbones. And if you spam Cutting Dive, you only get the initial hit, never any DoT damage. If you wait 3 seconds, you get the initial hit and 1 Dot hit. You're still ignoring 90% of the effect by spamming it. So, how is that any different?

With your definition of "spammable", any skill that has initial damage could be considered "spammable". That's a really loose definition IMO. You're essentially ignoring 2/3 of the effects on the skill. What makes me nervous is that players that uses these sort of loose definitions are also the ones that get on the forums and argue that the initial damage hit isnt high enough or that Warden isn't hitting hard enough and skills like Cutting Dive or Destructive Touch need buffed. It sounds like your usage isn't using the whole skill, only part of it. Otherwise, casting a DoT Skill every 20 seconds is hardly a "spammable"

Weave sub assault with what? A spammable? As with your blastbones example... remember that blastbones is not the spammable of necromancers either. Necromancer DPS has blastbones but then they use silver shards, flaming skull, or some other actual spammable. This isn't just my definition of spammable, it's the definition of spammable. Cutting dive and frost reach are spammables (in fact, both of them are used in meta warden parses for both magicka and stamina... frost reach is used every 4 seconds to proc dsa ice staff). Your generalization is one I have no evidence for. I've never seen anyone complain about the damage of destructive touch needing buffed, nor do I hold that opinion myself. As for cutting dive, it was a situation of the class spammable for warden genuinely not being very good, a problem necromancers also have with flaming skull. Screaming cliffracer is still not very good. And I already explained how I do in fact use the DoT portion of frost reach without waiting a whole 20 seconds. If I waited a whole 20 seconds I would have no spammable. I would be standing there doing nothing. I'm not a heavy attack build and I don't want to use cutting dive.

SEINTDARKNES

Lalothen wrote: »

I've been thinking about things for the past couple of days, and I would actually like to see the heavy attack for all three staff types converted to a 3-tic channel like lightning staff. That then standardises ALL staves as having a channeled 3-tic HA. With that in mind I would then propose the following:

Trifocus:
Flame Staff - keep the DoT but give it a respective 10/20s cd or stop the overwrite so it's not constantly being refreshed
Lightning staff - increase the AoE DD to 60/120%
Ice staff - procs a shield for 15/30% of the caster's HP each channeled tic - which refreshes rather than stacks - and drop the conversion to magicka block cost (add it as a passive CP star instead so players can still choose it if they want).

Ancient Knowledge:
Flame Staff - increases channeled & over time attacks by 6/12%
Lightning staff - increases direct damage attacks by 6/12%
Ice staff - maintain the current block-related bonuses

Additionally Ancient Knowledge would increase the initial status damage by 250/500 for the effect type associated with the staff's damage type.

This would do the following:

1) Open up HA build options to all three staff types.
2) Open up staves as a more interesting option for non-HA builds.

EDIT: the above proposition for Ancient Knowledge is also a much better fit for the respective Unstable Wall, Destructive Clench & Pulsar/Ele Ring destro skill morphs.

Shock Clench, Pulsar/Ring and the explosion portion of Unstable Wall - all being AoE DD - would then be buffed by Lightning Staff's Ancient Knowledge passive. The flame-related Afterburn DoT from Flame Pulsar/Ring and the AoE DoT of Unstable Wall would be buffed by Flame Staff's Ancient Knowledge passive. This would serve to further delineate Flame staff as the "burn 'em over time" staff, whilst Lightning would be more appropriately set up as the "shock 'em hard" staff, and it increase the overall cohesion between the passive and destro skills rather than add a counterintuitive element as things stand with the current iteration in U39.

I like these changes but i think the shields with ice staff could be very broken in pvp so i think it need some changes

Jsmalls

Yeah this change doesn't make much sense..
. Speaking from a MagSorc perspective you gave us 5% damage with minor berserk last patch then just took away 10% damage this patch.... But this going further than MagSorc obviously. You make this change and I'll just switch to a bow since you actually made that a viable replacement for a staff with it's changes.

Change penetrating to be for all ATTACKS using a staff instead of abilities to be consistent with other weapons otherwise you're just nerfing staves in general (something that really doesn't need to be nerfed).

ESO_Nightingale

Jsmalls wrote: »

Yeah this change doesn't make much sense..
. Speaking from a MagSorc perspective you gave us 5% damage with minor berserk last patch then just took away 10% damage this patch.... But this going further than MagSorc obviously. You make this change and I'll just switch to a bow since you actually made that a viable replacement for a staff with it's changes.

Change penetrating to be for all ATTACKS using a staff instead of abilities to be consistent with other weapons otherwise you're just nerfing staves in general (something that really doesn't need to be nerfed).

Yeah i agree, they needed to bring lightning staff up to fire and surpass it in certain situations and vice versa, not make make the fire staff insanely niche.

LukosCreyden

Jazraena wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

As a magsorc PvP main, and at least occasional magsorc PvE player... Ayup. Why bother with a staff now?

I mean, mine is an Imperial even. That Stam option is looking more tempting by the minute.

I love my Dual wield PvP StamSorc!
Shes so fun in Battlegrounds.

I have no doubt Stamsorcs can be fun in PvP.

I just actually wanted to play a mage, not a spellsword, you know?

Ugh, ain't that the bloody truth.
I don't want to be running around with two melee weapons in my hands if I want my magicka necromancer to retain what little power and playability it has.

ESO_Nightingale

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

As a magsorc PvP main, and at least occasional magsorc PvE player... Ayup. Why bother with a staff now?

I mean, mine is an Imperial even. That Stam option is looking more tempting by the minute.

I love my Dual wield PvP StamSorc!
Shes so fun in Battlegrounds.

I have no doubt Stamsorcs can be fun in PvP.

I just actually wanted to play a mage, not a spellsword, you know?

Ugh, ain't that the bloody truth.
I don't want to be running around with two melee weapons in my hands if I want my magicka necromancer to retain what little power and playability it has.

i'm not a massive fan of it either tbh. i think we still need a legitimate spellsword weapon anyway . magicka dps weapon options are few in number concerning skill sustainability and therefore viability. i could see the spellsword line working uniquely as a kind of hybrid between destruction staff and dual wield (with it's skills costing the higher of your maximum resource), if i was to design it, it would have a close range light/heavy attacking style to other melee weapons, with passive bonuses for enchants and including a tether dot into the line and a viable single target execute ability, in addition, you should be able to customize or farm the damage type like how we currently can with destro staves, with the ability to focus on magic, flame, shock or frost damage depending on what passive bonus you need and/or what works best with your class/build. i also would really hope that the frost bonus would be for dps as the frost staff has already been taken partially by tank and supports which has made it really hard to balance for dps, so having the option to finally have a frost damage focused weapon untouched by supportive effects for other roles would be great.

VvwvenomwvV

The change to Tri Focus for lighting staves is a bad move. I know many people who play with a lightning staff and they do so for this very purpose. They like being able to deal damage to all enemies in the area for every tick of their staff. It was bad enough that they changed it from 4 tick to 3 ticks awhile back. Now this to Tri Focus?

I seriously hope this doesn't go live.

ESO_Nightingale

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

The change to Tri Focus for lighting staves is a bad move. I know many people who play with a lightning staff and they do so for this very purpose. They like being able to deal damage to all enemies in the area for every tick of their staff. It was bad enough that they changed it from 4 tick to 3 ticks awhile back. Now this to Tri Focus?

I seriously hope this doesn't go live.

i don't think all of the original changes will go live, i think they've got some pretty big iterating to do

NolansGoons

VixxVexx wrote: »

I agree that it makes more sense for the fire staff to be dot/channel related instead of the lightning. But the heavy attack enjoyers are not going to be very happy about that. And there is a lot of them.

Frost & Inferno staff heavy attacks are slow projectiles and just feel bad to use. Maybe that should be changed first.
Here's my idea (sorry for my paint skills):

I love this concept, as well as most everything that's been presented in this thread (life-long staff main here) but my biggest issue is that I just... am not sure I can see ZOS ever making changes this sweeping. Now, I've never been the biggest patch-notes creeper, so maybe they have done updates like this a million times and I've just never noticed, but an overhaul to an entire weapon class's passives, visuals/functionality, and likely even active skills would need retooled as well, would be some pretty gargantuan changes that would take some severe consideration. Now, I'm basically in favor of ALL of this, but I'm just afraid this thread might be hoping really hard for some things that'll be doomed to never really come... Or maybe I'm just doomer-mode over this game at this point

acastanza_ESO

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

"Destruction Staff

Ancient Knowledge
Flame Staff: This passive now increases your damage done by the initial hit of status effects by 250/500, rather than increasing single target damage done by 5/10%."

I don't understand this change. Flame staffs are probably the front bar weapon for fewer PVE and PVP builds now than at any other time in the history of the game. Why remove their passive? Also, don't kid yourself, 500 damage every status effect is essentially nothing. This change is basically a complete removal of the passive. I don't get it, but RIP what few NB and LA sorc DD's still existed. There weren't many, and their damage was already bad, but they are gone now.

It certianly feels like someone on the ZOS combat team hates ranged magic weapons and is intent on deleting them from any serious gameplay. That's the only conclusion I've been able to draw after the repeated unwarranted nerfs this playstyle has gotten and the simultaneous buffs that have gone to melee. We were given repeated assurances that they were monitoring the nerfs to ensure that ranged play didn't fall too far behind, but with this latest series of nerfs that was clearly a bald-faced lie @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Gilliam.

katorga

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

"Destruction Staff

Ancient Knowledge
Flame Staff: This passive now increases your damage done by the initial hit of status effects by 250/500, rather than increasing single target damage done by 5/10%."

I don't understand this change. Flame staffs are probably the front bar weapon for fewer PVE and PVP builds now than at any other time in the history of the game. Why remove their passive? Also, don't kid yourself, 500 damage every status effect is essentially nothing. This change is basically a complete removal of the passive. I don't get it, but RIP what few NB and LA sorc DD's still existed. There weren't many, and their damage was already bad, but they are gone now.

It certianly feels like someone on the ZOS combat team hates ranged magic weapons and is intent on deleting them from any serious gameplay.

Yeah, they seem to be reversing course on lowering the ceiling, raising the floor. Then again, I don't have enough fingers to count the builds I've used over the years that were completely deleted by ZOS' wild 180 degree changes of heart.

Lightning staff will be the Ball Group Arcanist's weapon of choice. Maybe some sort of PVE dot dps build, but bow will probably be better for ranged dps, and DW for melee.

Firestaff will be over the top in pvp and rapidly nerfed, along with all of the sets that synergize with it. ZOS never adjusts; they nerf a thing to useless, and nerf everything associated with the thing being nerfed just to be certain.

Lumenn

katorga wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

"Destruction Staff

Ancient Knowledge
Flame Staff: This passive now increases your damage done by the initial hit of status effects by 250/500, rather than increasing single target damage done by 5/10%."

I don't understand this change. Flame staffs are probably the front bar weapon for fewer PVE and PVP builds now than at any other time in the history of the game. Why remove their passive? Also, don't kid yourself, 500 damage every status effect is essentially nothing. This change is basically a complete removal of the passive. I don't get it, but RIP what few NB and LA sorc DD's still existed. There weren't many, and their damage was already bad, but they are gone now.

It certianly feels like someone on the ZOS combat team hates ranged magic weapons and is intent on deleting them from any serious gameplay.

Yeah, they seem to be reversing course on lowering the ceiling, raising the floor. Then again, I don't have enough fingers to count the builds I've used over the years that were completely deleted by ZOS' wild 180 degree changes of heart.

Been thinking that myself with a lot of the changes to weapons, endeavours, and the endless dungeon coming up. I'm the last of a group that started over 7 years ago, mainly for these 180 changes.

kojou

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

"Destruction Staff

Ancient Knowledge
Flame Staff: This passive now increases your damage done by the initial hit of status effects by 250/500, rather than increasing single target damage done by 5/10%."

I don't understand this change. Flame staffs are probably the front bar weapon for fewer PVE and PVP builds now than at any other time in the history of the game. Why remove their passive? Also, don't kid yourself, 500 damage every status effect is essentially nothing. This change is basically a complete removal of the passive. I don't get it, but RIP what few NB and LA sorc DD's still existed. There weren't many, and their damage was already bad, but they are gone now.

500 damage per status effect direct isn't nothing, but it's only good for status effect builds like frost warden that have a ton of sources of application and with charged. but frost warden uses an ice staff so the bonus doesn't help anyone much at all. conclusion is that this is still a terrible change for inferno staff, but the idea of increased status effect damage is actually good as a general concept.

Its not nothing, but even on my Magicka DK it is weaker than switching to a bow in my testing, and this should be the class that benefits the most from a burning buff.

I'm sure someone at ZOS is going to see comments like this and nerf bow to be inline with destruction staff as an answer...