Destruction Staff Feedback

jaws343

jaws343 wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

xXCJsniperXx7 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Weapons
Destruction Staff
Ancient Knowledge: Based on player feedback, we’ve re-adjusted the bonuses granted for these staff types to fit more into their theme, while moving to be more generic amplifications so more builds can easily derive meaningful power without intense specialization.
Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 6/12%, rather than the initial hit of status effects by 250/500.
Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 6/12%, rather than Damage over Time and channeled effects by 6/12%

Fire Staves still have low use cases as they will not buff single-target attacks. At least lightning will be used somewhere due to direct damage.

12% dot buff is a much better bonus than the current single target damage. Making both single target and aoe dots stronger is much more versatile. If your a magdk for example next to all of your skills are better with this change now. Comparing to live, where only Molten Whip, Burning Embers, Flames of Oblivion, and Unrelenting Grip are buffed, this change will make the majority of skills better instead. This change includes Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Eruption, Unstable Wall, Destructive Reach, Barbed Trap, Standard of Might, etc. This is just picturing a magdk to. All classes will benefit from this change as flame staffs capabilities are increased.

So what will happen with my magsorc now that pretty much everything is singe target?

If you want to run staves, lightning will likely be BiS for a heavy spammable, single target setup. Especially for PVP.

For PVE, lightning might still be best. Basically, you will see a slight damage increase depending on the build you currently run given that inferno doesn't buff AOE, only single target on live.

So, for example, in my solo setup damage skills:

FB: Meteor, Crushing, Curse, Frag
BB: Destro Ult, WoE, LL, Boundless

On Live: Fire stave only buffs Crushing, Curse, and Frag, all by 10%
On PTS: Lightning stave buffs Crushing, Curse, and Frag, all by 12%

Neither of the AOEs are buffed in either stave type. So, in all, a slight buff to my Sorc setup swapping to lightning stave.
You could swap to Fire stave and that should buff WoE, LL, Boundless, but I think that would be less damage in a parse than buffing the single target damage, for the same reasons builds would run inferno on live right now over lightning.

Oh, I missed that the initial impact damage from Meteor will also be buffed by Lightning.

As would the initial impact damage of the Storm Attro as well.

Syiccal

techprince wrote: »

xXCJsniperXx7 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Weapons
Destruction Staff
Ancient Knowledge: Based on player feedback, we’ve re-adjusted the bonuses granted for these staff types to fit more into their theme, while moving to be more generic amplifications so more builds can easily derive meaningful power without intense specialization.
Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 6/12%, rather than the initial hit of status effects by 250/500.
Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 6/12%, rather than Damage over Time and channeled effects by 6/12%

Fire Staves still have low use cases as they will not buff single-target attacks. At least lightning will be used somewhere due to direct damage.

12% dot buff is a much better bonus than the current single target damage. Making both single target and aoe dots stronger is much more versatile. If your a magdk for example next to all of your skills are better with this change now. Comparing to live, where only Molten Whip, Burning Embers, Flames of Oblivion, and Unrelenting Grip are buffed, this change will make the majority of skills better instead. This change includes Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Eruption, Unstable Wall, Destructive Reach, Barbed Trap, Standard of Might, etc. This is just picturing a magdk to. All classes will benefit from this change as flame staffs capabilities are increased.

Dot classes are DK, Warden and Necro. Wardens wont be using it as Ice Staves buffs all damage by 12%. The remaining 2 will see some use of it but thats about it. Every other class directly benefits from Lightning Staff. In PvP, front-barring vateshran flame staff with backbar Master DW will be extremely out of balance. You will see this setup everywhere.

Maybe I'm not sure sure, ice staff is so common not just because of ele but because of the block mitigation etc, ppl don't like dying and build to be tanky

jaws343

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Neither of the AOEs are buffed in either stave type.

Why it isnt? (In pts) patch notes doesnt diffentiate between st and aoe. Only between direct and dot. So at least the direct part of meteor should be buffed by lightning

On live, Fire staves do not buff AOE dots.

On PTS, Lightning staves do not buff AOE dots.

That is what I mean by either stave type, comparing live setups using fire staves to PTS setups using lightning.

Now, yes, fire staves will now buff AOE dots on PTS, but lightning staves buff them on Live. It is basically a switch of stave abilities, with the added overall channel and direct damage. It is a significant buff for lightning staves on PTS compared to what fire staves on live currently do (single target only)

(I also added another comment afterwards mentioning that I missed the initial impact of meteor. But really, outside of PVP, no one is really casting meteor.)

Syiccal

From a PvP perspecrive - I'm not great at eos math so if someone can help me out here. Using dw maces nern/charged currently on live and looking at the change to lighting staff being 12% buff to direct and channeled attacks, what will be better for a templar/arcanist. Now I appreciate going staff will lose the second enchant and trait but will that 12% buff make up the difference of not having 2 maces and loosing the pen and the charged enchants etc. If it doesn't I think the meta will stay exactly as it is...to fair it probably will unless master dw/ wrath of elements gets nerfed

techprince

Syiccal wrote: »

From a PvP perspecrive - I'm not great at eos math so if someone can help me out here. Using dw maces nern/charged currently on live and looking at the change to lighting staff being 12% buff to direct and channeled attacks, what will be better for a templar/arcanist. Now I appreciate going staff will lose the second enchant and trait but will that 12% buff make up the difference of not having 2 maces and loosing the pen and the charged enchants etc. If it doesn't I think the meta will stay exactly as it is...to fair it probably will unless master dw/ wrath of elements gets nerfed

Magicka -> Sharpened Lightning. Stamina -> Mauls/Maces

Necrotech_Master

Syiccal wrote: »

lQrukl wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I was under the impression that channeled attacks count as dots. Since they arent explicitly excluded from flame staves: are channels buffed by both staves?

No, try it wit thurmaturge or even valkyn Skoria which procs off dots, skills like jabs or beam will not benifit or proc the set

Fair enough, jabs is a channeled and definitely is not buffed by thurmaturge and definitely doesn't proc skoria any more, so I assumed fate carver followed the same rules..I shouldn't assume anything when comes to Zos I guess.

jabs and flurry were incorrectly classed as dots for years, they only fixed them within the past year to be direct dmg

jabs and flurry would be direct dmg channels instead of fatecarver which is a dot channel (just like jesus beam is a dot channel)

lightning staves for a templar would be buffing both the jesus beam and jabs (it might actually double dip on jabs being both a channel and direct dmg)

ESO_Nightingale

I'm happy they listened, now the only problem is individual tuning as 12% direct and channeled is a lot stronger than 12% dot

FrancisCrawford

Overamera wrote: »

xXCJsniperXx7 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Weapons
Destruction Staff
Ancient Knowledge: Based on player feedback, we’ve re-adjusted the bonuses granted for these staff types to fit more into their theme, while moving to be more generic amplifications so more builds can easily derive meaningful power without intense specialization.
Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 6/12%, rather than the initial hit of status effects by 250/500.
Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 6/12%, rather than Damage over Time and channeled effects by 6/12%

Fire Staves still have low use cases as they will not buff single-target attacks. At least lightning will be used somewhere due to direct damage.

12% dot buff is a much better bonus than the current single target damage. Making both single target and aoe dots stronger is much more versatile. If your a magdk for example next to all of your skills are better with this change now. Comparing to live, where only Molten Whip, Burning Embers, Flames of Oblivion, and Unrelenting Grip are buffed, this change will make the majority of skills better instead. This change includes Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Eruption, Unstable Wall, Destructive Reach, Barbed Trap, Standard of Might, etc. This is just picturing a magdk to. All classes will benefit from this change as flame staffs capabilities are increased.

So what will happen with my magsorc now that pretty much everything is singe target?

• Pet damage should be buffed by lightning staff.
• Basic attack damage should be buffed by lightning staff.
• Spammables should be buffed by lightning staff.
• Prey/Curse should be buffed by lightning staff.
• Most damaging enchantment procs should be buffed by lightning staff (exceptions: Fire, Poison)

Jsmalls

Have to leave my feedback that the changes are much appreciated. Thank you for listening!

techprince

What if fire staff retains the previous status damage boost together with dot damage?

Tyrant_Tim

techprince wrote: »

What if fire staff retains the previous status damage boost together with dot damage?

That status effect increase would need to be bare minimally halved for it to be added to Inferno with the DoT change.

Personally, I would love to see ZOS add a lot more channeled attacks to the game, then add the Direct Damage to Frost Staff while removing any and all tank functionality from it.

Ice Staff acts more like a Staff of Alteration than it’s respective Destruction element.

the1andonlyskwex

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

What if fire staff retains the previous status damage boost together with dot damage?

That status effect increase would need to be bare minimally halved for it to be added to Inferno with the DoT change.

Personally, I would love to see ZOS add a lot more channeled attacks to the game, then add the Direct Damage to Frost Staff while removing any and all tank functionality from it.

Ice Staff acts more like a Staff of Alteration than it’s respective Destruction element.

The main problem with the extra status effect damage was that it was virtually useless on most builds while being potentially overpowered on builds spamming Crushing Shock or Force Pulse with the Charged trait and Draugrkin's Grip. There wasn't really any middle ground, so putting it back even with a nerf would probably be a balancing nightmare.

JerBearESO

techprince wrote: »

What if fire staff retains the previous status damage boost together with dot damage?

Yeah I think this would be good. Maybe at half the value it had, or in exchange for some of the dot %.

So like 12% dot, and 250 damage on status application, or 10% dot and 500 on status.

Something like this would be really nice to account for lightnings % bonus compared to fires, where lightning gets the better of the two in most cases.

I would love this

chessalavakia_ESO

I think the changes might make lightning look too much like the clear winner.

Maybe the changes parse well but, at a glance it doesn't really look even and that's all some people will be doing.

ESO_Nightingale

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think the changes might make lightning look too much like the clear winner.

Maybe the changes parse well but, at a glance it doesn't really look even and that's all some people will be doing.

Dot is not as impactful as direct that's for sure, but that can be solved through tuning. I'd say the overall design is in a good spot now.

IAVITNI

At this point, why not just split the buff into two components.

Have destro increase all damage by, say, 8% for ALL staffs + additional flavour buff.

Benefits

1. Build Consistency
This makes it less punishing for builds that don't fit into a specific niche (DoTs vs Direct or Single Target vs AoE) but still leaves room in power budget for unique identity to each staff.

2. Segments Power Budget
This also splits the damage buff, meaning you can do something like the following:

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 2/4%
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4%
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20%

This also provides additional benefits

• Enables individual balancing of Fire vs Lightning
• Narrows gap for Frost dps due to lack of Tri Focus damage components while still keeping Frost damage as a defensive oriented staff

Taking this one step further:
Bespoke damage buffs

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 3/6% (Net damage buff 11/14%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

Bespoke buff approaches

• Inferno Staves now increase your chance to apply status effects by 100/200% (Net damage buff 8/8%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

ESO_Nightingale

IAVITNI wrote: »

At this point, why not just split the buff into two components.

Have destro increase all damage by, say, 8% for ALL staffs + additional flavour buff.

Benefits

1. Build Consistency
This makes it less punishing for builds that don't fit into a specific niche (DoTs vs Direct or Single Target vs AoE) but still leaves room in power budget for unique identity to each staff.

2. Segments Power Budget
This also splits the damage buff, meaning you can do something like the following:

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 2/4%
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4%
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20%

This also provides additional benefits

• Enables individual balancing of Fire vs Lightning
• Narrows gap for Frost dps due to lack of Tri Focus damage components while still keeping Frost damage as a defensive oriented staff

Taking this one step further:
Bespoke damage buffs

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 3/6% (Net damage buff 11/14%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

Bespoke buff approaches

• Inferno Staves now increase your chance to apply status effects by 100/200% (Net damage buff 8/8%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

it's not really that punishing compared to the old system. as the old system was encounter based. you have to use x staff here and y staff there. now it's dependant on how you build which is better. individual tuning may need to change, but we're still on the pts.

FirmamentOfStars

For the PvP enthusiasts here: the changed wont change much the PvP meta unless you used fire staff before you will switch to lightning now. But the obvious meta setup will remain dual wield plus ice staff, since dw maces with nirn/sharp or nirn/charged still is far better damage wise than sharpened lightning or fire staff. Dw backbar and fire staff sounds awful without a backbar weapon helping with block, while master dw front will be far better than having a fire staff not buffing your burst and spammable.

I actually liked the status effect bonus on the previous iteration of the fire staff. Its an interesting and unique idea, but sadly underwhelming in PvE while crazy strong in PvP in combination with the right gear. I would have loved the devs looking into a more balanced version of the status effect fire staff instead of basically swapping the usage of lightning and fire staff from live (before it was split between aoe and single target, now between dots and direct damage (plus channels), which seems very boring and unimaginative to me.

Tyrant_Tim

Yet another huge win for Destro.

RedrunnerFred

If I am correct the new changes would give a total of 24% damage increase to the big 3 dot status effects. These being Fire, Poison and Hemorrhaging. With the Dragonknight's now 33% fire and poison buff the damage should probably be around where it was pre nerf. Makes me think that Serpent's disdain would be worth it if you have all three. Perhaps a dk with fire staff front bar and dualweild backbar with the skills venomous claw, elemental susceptibility, and rending slashes could be effective.

ESO_Nightingale

RedrunnerFred wrote: »

If I am correct the new changes would give a total of 24% damage increase to the big 3 dot status effects. These being Fire, Poison and Hemorrhaging. With the Dragonknight's now 33% fire and poison buff the damage should probably be around where it was pre nerf. Makes me think that Serpent's disdain would be worth it if you have all three. Perhaps a dk with fire staff front bar and dualweild backbar with the skills venomous claw, elemental susceptibility, and rending slashes could be effective.

Well jabs doesn't double dip when using a lightning staff so I'd assume it just buffs by 12%.

Jazraena

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

Bl4ckR3alm93

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

Nah I think the PTS week 3 is a step in the right direction. Vast majority of the community wanted these changes and I think this is better for Staves. Inferno Staff definitely do not need 12% heavy attack lol. The new DoT damage when you heavy attack is way better plus 12% DoT increase overall. Now the Devs also increased Status effect damage by 12% which literally makes sense do what a Fire Staff would do. The Lightning Staff chances also make way better sense. I personally am loving what the Developers are doing compared to these other games out here like Destiny 2 and am going to make a post about it later. Sometimes people need to know that their doing better especially in todays society.

ESO_Nightingale

Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

Nah I think the PTS week 3 is a step in the right direction. Vast majority of the community wanted these changes and I think this is better for Staves. Inferno Staff definitely do not need 12% heavy attack lol. The new DoT damage when you heavy attack is way better plus 12% DoT increase overall. Now the Devs also increased Status effect damage by 12% which literally makes sense do what a Fire Staff would do. The Lightning Staff chances also make way better sense. I personally am loving what the Developers are doing compared to these other games out here like Destiny 2 and am going to make a post about it later. Sometimes people need to know that their doing better especially in todays society.

My concern is that since it almost certainly doesn't stack, that means only direct damage statuses are getting buffed which is a tiny amount of damage. The bonus should be a flat increase to status effects to make the change worthwhile.

Tannus15

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

techprince

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

ESO_Nightingale

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

I agree. Even 300 or 400 is fair.

ESO_Nightingale

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

But you're forgetting tannus, change is always bad!!!

JerBearESO

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

FirmamentOfStars

JerBearESO wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

A percent increase is fine and better suited than a flat amount, since it will less likely affect PvP this way. The first iteration with 500 bonus damage on status effects was broken in PvP with the right build and melted people. Even 250, 300 or 400 as suggested will do lots of damage done right. In the meantime a percentage increase could benefit PvE dps better, since a flat increase there is miniscule compared to the total dps, while a percentage might see more value.