Destruction Staff Feedback

ESO_Nightingale

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

A percent increase is fine and better suited than a flat amount, since it will less likely affect PvP this way. The first iteration with 500 bonus damage on status effects was broken in PvP with the right build and melted people. Even 250, 300 or 400 as suggested will do lots of damage done right. In the meantime a percentage increase could benefit PvE dps better, since a flat increase there is miniscule compared to the total dps, while a percentage might see more value.

Status effects don't scale like everything else. Percentage dps increases for them often don't mean anything unless they already hit reasonably hard or if the % is disgustingly high.

techprince

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

A percent increase is fine and better suited than a flat amount, since it will less likely affect PvP this way. The first iteration with 500 bonus damage on status effects was broken in PvP with the right build and melted people. Even 250, 300 or 400 as suggested will do lots of damage done right. In the meantime a percentage increase could benefit PvE dps better, since a flat increase there is miniscule compared to the total dps, while a percentage might see more value.

No. Poisoned, Burning and Bleed damage are already buffed by dot damage increase. They don't doubledip with another 12% to status effects. 12% boost will only apply to instant damaging status effects which hardly do 1.5-2% of your overall damage. With the only exception of wardens, nobody will benefit from this.

FrancisCrawford

techprince wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

A percent increase is fine and better suited than a flat amount, since it will less likely affect PvP this way. The first iteration with 500 bonus damage on status effects was broken in PvP with the right build and melted people. Even 250, 300 or 400 as suggested will do lots of damage done right. In the meantime a percentage increase could benefit PvE dps better, since a flat increase there is miniscule compared to the total dps, while a percentage might see more value.

No. Poisoned, Burning and Bleed damage are already buffed by dot damage increase. They don't doubledip with another 12% to status effects. 12% boost will only apply to instant damaging status effects which hardly do 1.5-2% of your overall damage. With the only exception of wardens, nobody will benefit from this.

And wardens are surely better off with ice staff giving +10% to everything, over other staffs that give 12% to some stuff.

FrancisCrawford

Anyhow, status effect builds will always be more powerful in PvP than PvE, for reasons other than the immediate damage:

• You're less likely to have other group members applying the effects there.
• Minor Defile matters.

So they'll never be allowed to have meaningful value in PvE.

FirmamentOfStars

I did not say the current percentage number is fine (and burning, poisoned and bleeding should definitely double dip with that passive), but a flat number is exploitable in PvP. During the first iteration of the flame staff, I hopped on the PTS with a very specific build to use that status damage boost to its fullest. The setup deleted pretty much anyone, while I did not have to move one step out of my healing circles (templar class there). With the proper setup, this passive provides up to additional 3500 damage with one ability, or better said up to 7 instances of status effect procs with a single ability cast. Most status effects do 700-1000 damage on proc, but with my setup 1.8k damage on one status effect was not unusual (in duels mitigated by the enemy).

Jazraena

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

Inferno being competitive in an optimized trial group with very specific sets effectively means it's weaker outside of it.

Sorry, I don't really care for that niche case.

Jazraena

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

But you're forgetting tannus, change is always bad!!!

Change is bad if it makes you pointlessly alter your build yet again because they can't make up their mind about what stuff does and shatter your character's power fantasy on the way.

Punishing people merely because they like fire effects is no better than punishing people because the liked lightning effects before this change.

ESO_Nightingale

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

But you're forgetting tannus, change is always bad!!!

Change is bad if it makes you pointlessly alter your build yet again because they can't make up their mind about what stuff does and shatter your character's power fantasy on the way.

Punishing people merely because they like fire effects is no better than punishing people because the liked lightning effects before this change.

They are not punishing you merely because you like fire effects, they are trying to create more diversity within the weapon line so you aren't always taking fire on every non trash/heavy attack destruction staff build like it's been for the last 8 years.

ESO_Nightingale

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Anyhow, status effect builds will always be more powerful in PvP than PvE, for reasons other than the immediate damage:

• You're less likely to have other group members applying the effects there.
• Minor Defile matters.

So they'll never be allowed to have meaningful value in PvE.

Who says they'll never be allowed to have meaningful value in pve???? Status effects are frost warden's biggest damage outputter outside of maybe bear.

ESO_Nightingale

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

A percent increase is fine and better suited than a flat amount, since it will less likely affect PvP this way. The first iteration with 500 bonus damage on status effects was broken in PvP with the right build and melted people. Even 250, 300 or 400 as suggested will do lots of damage done right. In the meantime a percentage increase could benefit PvE dps better, since a flat increase there is miniscule compared to the total dps, while a percentage might see more value.

No. Poisoned, Burning and Bleed damage are already buffed by dot damage increase. They don't doubledip with another 12% to status effects. 12% boost will only apply to instant damaging status effects which hardly do 1.5-2% of your overall damage. With the only exception of wardens, nobody will benefit from this.

And wardens are surely better off with ice staff giving +10% to everything, over other staffs that give 12% to some stuff.

Yeah, and we get more chilled application as well by using an ice staff too.

Faulgor

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

A percent increase is fine and better suited than a flat amount, since it will less likely affect PvP this way. The first iteration with 500 bonus damage on status effects was broken in PvP with the right build and melted people. Even 250, 300 or 400 as suggested will do lots of damage done right. In the meantime a percentage increase could benefit PvE dps better, since a flat increase there is miniscule compared to the total dps, while a percentage might see more value.

No. Poisoned, Burning and Bleed damage are already buffed by dot damage increase. They don't doubledip with another 12% to status effects. 12% boost will only apply to instant damaging status effects which hardly do 1.5-2% of your overall damage. With the only exception of wardens, nobody will benefit from this.

And wardens are surely better off with ice staff giving +10% to everything, over other staffs that give 12% to some stuff.

I have three chars that make extensive use of status effects.
One, a Frost Warden for obvious reason.
Two, a Shock Sorcerer specced into Concussion to proc Storm-Cursed's Revenge more reliably.
Three, Dragon's Appetite/Serpent's Disdain DW DK with Bleed/Burning/Poison through the roof.

None will profit from an Inferno staff. I can see the concept they were going for, but it doesn't seem to be supported in the game as of now. I suppose the DK could move DW to the backbar and run Inferno front, but what's the benefit? All necessary skills are melee range anyway.

Arcanist would seem like an obvious fit with its built-in buff to status effects, but how many status effects can Arcanists even apply with their normal rotation?

Lalothen

I think my final feedback on the U39 change to Lightning Trifocus would be to pursue a compromise: cut Trifocus from 50/100% of damage done to 25/50% (or even 20/40%). This would achieve a similar overall reduction in AoE dps whilst retaining the gameplay element and dealing with issues being raised, such as mobs dying before trifocus actually goes off, etc.

Jazraena

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

But you're forgetting tannus, change is always bad!!!

Change is bad if it makes you pointlessly alter your build yet again because they can't make up their mind about what stuff does and shatter your character's power fantasy on the way.

Punishing people merely because they like fire effects is no better than punishing people because the liked lightning effects before this change.

They are not punishing you merely because you like fire effects, they are trying to create more diversity within the weapon line so you aren't always taking fire on every non trash/heavy attack destruction staff build like it's been for the last 8 years.

And yet, the end effect for me is now that instead of lightning being the objectively bad choice... inferno is the objectively bad choice.

In other words, unless I want to loose efficiency I'm asked to switch to lightning in most cases and end up in the exact same situation we had before this change, except in different colour.

It's cool that lightning is useful. It's not cool that inferno now takes the place lightning had before.

MindOfTheSwarm

I personally think the changes are overall a positive thing, but it would have been nice if they gave Frost Staves a little something. Maybe a 4 second duration increase on skills that have durations. Just a little something so they aren’t left out of this rework.

Tannus15

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

But you're forgetting tannus, change is always bad!!!

Change is bad if it makes you pointlessly alter your build yet again because they can't make up their mind about what stuff does and shatter your character's power fantasy on the way.

Punishing people merely because they like fire effects is no better than punishing people because the liked lightning effects before this change.

They are not punishing you merely because you like fire effects, they are trying to create more diversity within the weapon line so you aren't always taking fire on every non trash/heavy attack destruction staff build like it's been for the last 8 years.

And yet, the end effect for me is now that instead of lightning being the objectively bad choice... inferno is the objectively bad choice.

In other words, unless I want to loose efficiency I'm asked to switch to lightning in most cases and end up in the exact same situation we had before this change, except in different colour.

It's cool that lightning is useful. It's not cool that inferno now takes the place lightning had before.

honestly it's a pretty small change for the most part.

we're talking maybe some extra farming, some transmutes and 8 rosin. it's not like the sets are now suddenly useless or something. DW and 2H are still stronger if you were using those.

you're also talking a very small percent. if you're not in a very optimised trial group etc then you probably won't notice the difference, and if your build has 3 or more dots then you really should be testing the change before you start jumping to conclusions.

All my testing has been on a sorc, probably the class with the least amount of dots in their rotation and we're talking 110k for inferno vs 112k for lightning. the only dot skill i'm running is barbed trap.

Jazraena

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

But you're forgetting tannus, change is always bad!!!

Change is bad if it makes you pointlessly alter your build yet again because they can't make up their mind about what stuff does and shatter your character's power fantasy on the way.

Punishing people merely because they like fire effects is no better than punishing people because the liked lightning effects before this change.

They are not punishing you merely because you like fire effects, they are trying to create more diversity within the weapon line so you aren't always taking fire on every non trash/heavy attack destruction staff build like it's been for the last 8 years.

And yet, the end effect for me is now that instead of lightning being the objectively bad choice... inferno is the objectively bad choice.

In other words, unless I want to loose efficiency I'm asked to switch to lightning in most cases and end up in the exact same situation we had before this change, except in different colour.

It's cool that lightning is useful. It's not cool that inferno now takes the place lightning had before.

honestly it's a pretty small change for the most part.

we're talking maybe some extra farming, some transmutes and 8 rosin. it's not like the sets are now suddenly useless or something. DW and 2H are still stronger if you were using those.

you're also talking a very small percent. if you're not in a very optimised trial group etc then you probably won't notice the difference, and if your build has 3 or more dots then you really should be testing the change before you start jumping to conclusions.

All my testing has been on a sorc, probably the class with the least amount of dots in their rotation and we're talking 110k for inferno vs 112k for lightning. the only dot skill i'm running is barbed trap.

You are entirely missing the point going 'Eh it's just 8 Rosin'.

Tannus15

Jazraena wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Somehow, even week 3 still reads "LOL stop frontbarring inferno staff" to me for no reason so I'll stick to my feedback of "ZOS, kindly stop *** up my characters".

if you're running rele and nirn then inferno and lightning do about the same dps, if you're also running any decent number of dots then inferno comes out ahead.

if you're running bahsei and mothers sorrow or some other combination of pure stats sets then lightning comes out ahead.

bow is always good.

the changes have made all 3 options relevant instead of it being literally only inferno staff. overall this is a big win for build variety and styles.

But you're forgetting tannus, change is always bad!!!

Change is bad if it makes you pointlessly alter your build yet again because they can't make up their mind about what stuff does and shatter your character's power fantasy on the way.

Punishing people merely because they like fire effects is no better than punishing people because the liked lightning effects before this change.

They are not punishing you merely because you like fire effects, they are trying to create more diversity within the weapon line so you aren't always taking fire on every non trash/heavy attack destruction staff build like it's been for the last 8 years.

And yet, the end effect for me is now that instead of lightning being the objectively bad choice... inferno is the objectively bad choice.

In other words, unless I want to loose efficiency I'm asked to switch to lightning in most cases and end up in the exact same situation we had before this change, except in different colour.

It's cool that lightning is useful. It's not cool that inferno now takes the place lightning had before.

honestly it's a pretty small change for the most part.

we're talking maybe some extra farming, some transmutes and 8 rosin. it's not like the sets are now suddenly useless or something. DW and 2H are still stronger if you were using those.

you're also talking a very small percent. if you're not in a very optimised trial group etc then you probably won't notice the difference, and if your build has 3 or more dots then you really should be testing the change before you start jumping to conclusions.

All my testing has been on a sorc, probably the class with the least amount of dots in their rotation and we're talking 110k for inferno vs 112k for lightning. the only dot skill i'm running is barbed trap.

You are entirely missing the point going 'Eh it's just 8 Rosin'.

You're entirely missing the point that it's less than 2% on a dot-lite, heavy direct damage build.

Have you gone on PTS and actually done anything?
Do you have any actual data to back up your sky is falling narrative?

Jazraena

No, it's less than 2% on your specific setup on trial dummies.This is not a niche the majority of the game operates in.

I don't need a parse, least of all one skewed by trial buffs and debuffs, to know that at the most extreme end, I do not utilize any relevant DoTs on my PvP build. I will have a flat choice between +12% damage on any skill that matters or +12% damage on status effects. This is a non-choice.

Equally, I don't need a parse to know that I do significantly more damage with direct damage effects compared to DoT effects because I did those calculations several times over for my choice in CP stars. Status effect damage will mitigate nowhere near enough of that, especially if, as presumed, DoT and Status bonus don't double-dip.

A handful of characters won't be hit as hard as others, one might even be close to equal, but for the vast majority of my staff users inferno staves will take the role lightning staves had before: The weaker choice.

And relegating that to 'eh, just switch staff, it's only 8 rosin' is nothing but disrespectful. You may not care for anything but the numerically superior choice, but some of us would very much maintain our power fantasy of fire magic and not throw that away just because ZOS thinks that today is Lightning Tuesday.

They're just shuffling elements from bad to good and vice versa, and make us jump through hoops while breaking up power fantasies.

And frankly, I've had far too much of that careless attitude to game balancing the past years. It's half-baked and needs to go back to the drawing board.

Tannus15

Jazraena wrote: »

No, it's less than 2% on your specific setup on trial dummies.This is not a niche the majority of the game operates in.

I don't need a parse, least of all one skewed by trial buffs and debuffs, to know that at the most extreme end, I do not utilize any relevant DoTs on my PvP build. I will have a flat choice between +12% damage on any skill that matters or +12% damage on status effects. This is a non-choice.

Equally, I don't need a parse to know that I do significantly more damage with direct damage effects compared to DoT effects because I did those calculations several times over for my choice in CP stars. Status effect damage will mitigate nowhere near enough of that, especially if, as presumed, DoT and Status bonus don't double-dip.

A handful of characters won't be hit as hard as others, one might even be close to equal, but for the vast majority of my staff users inferno staves will take the role lightning staves had before: The weaker choice.

And relegating that to 'eh, just switch staff, it's only 8 rosin' is nothing but disrespectful. You may not care for anything but the numerically superior choice, but some of us would very much maintain our power fantasy of fire magic and not throw that away just because ZOS thinks that today is Lightning Tuesday.

They're just shuffling elements from bad to good and vice versa, and make us jump through hoops while breaking up power fantasies.

And frankly, I've had far too much of that careless attitude to game balancing the past years. It's half-baked and needs to go back to the drawing board.

Firstly, as a sorc who has been wanting to run a lightning staff for almost a decade but couldn't because it's been so terrible for so long, suck it up. It's not "Lightning Tuesday" it's "Finally both staves are good".

Secondly you damn well do need to parse before you start crying all over the forums, because you literally have no real grasp of how much difference this is going to make. If the trial dummy isn't relevant to your situation, then use a 3m. If a dummy isn't going to do it for you, then get a friend with PTS and try duels. Right now you're just making stuff up and pretending it's as valid as the data other people, like myself, are literally posting on the forums.

IAVITNI

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

At this point, why not just split the buff into two components.

Have destro increase all damage by, say, 8% for ALL staffs + additional flavour buff.

Benefits

1. Build Consistency
This makes it less punishing for builds that don't fit into a specific niche (DoTs vs Direct or Single Target vs AoE) but still leaves room in power budget for unique identity to each staff.

2. Segments Power Budget
This also splits the damage buff, meaning you can do something like the following:

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 2/4%
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4%
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20%

This also provides additional benefits

• Enables individual balancing of Fire vs Lightning
• Narrows gap for Frost dps due to lack of Tri Focus damage components while still keeping Frost damage as a defensive oriented staff

Taking this one step further:
Bespoke damage buffs

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 3/6% (Net damage buff 11/14%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

Bespoke buff approaches

• Inferno Staves now increase your chance to apply status effects by 100/200% (Net damage buff 8/8%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

it's not really that punishing compared to the old system. as the old system was encounter based. you have to use x staff here and y staff there. now it's dependant on how you build which is better. individual tuning may need to change, but we're still on the pts.

From the continued sky is falling comments, I think it's safe to say that a lot of people still feel punished.

The idea between a flat 8% damage boost for equipping any destro with an additional 4 or n % buff to DoTs/Direct damage etc. is that anytime you equip a weapon, you get a power boost.

Let's compare 2h to destro staffs by looking at two naked characters, no skill points or CP invested.

Next, equip one with a 2h sword and the other with a fire destro. This is our baseline of power - one where we assume each character is equally as powerful, ignoring difference in base weapon damage.

If both characters run around, they would be expected to have the same level of efficiency. Everyone is happy because both builds are balanced.

Now let's give each character 2 skill point to invest.

Each character invests 1 skill point into their weapon passive:
* Heavy Weapons for the 2h character
* Ancient Knowledge for the destro character

Now we have 1 remaining point that MUST be invested in an offensive ability.

No matter where the 2h character invests this skill point, their weapon will buff that ability. Sure, some abilities will benefit more from flat damage than others, but no matter what ability or class, the passive provides a power boost.

Compare this to the (PTS) Fire destro. You have to be selective of what ability you invest in, otherwise you receive no benefit.

A flat 8% boost to all damage on all destros + n% boost to Direct/DoT/etc. solves this issue. No matter what class or build, investing into a passive provides a benefit. There's still rewards for smart players who choose to build around their staff, but no player feels completely robbed.

And again, this opens up options like
Fire Destro = 8% boost to all damage, 24% boost to DoTs and Status Effect damage
Lightning = 8% boost to all damage, 4% boost to direct damage and channeled abilities
Frost = 8% boost to all damage, block cost reduction 36% and increase block damage by 20%

ZhuJiuyin

IAVITNI wrote: »

A flat 8% boost to all damage on all destros + n% boost to Direct/DoT/etc. solves this issue. No matter what class or build, investing into a passive provides a benefit. There's still rewards for smart players who choose to build around their staff, but no player feels completely robbed.

And again, this opens up options like
Fire Destro = 8% boost to all damage, 24% boost to DoTs and Status Effect damage
Lightning = 8% boost to all damage, 4% boost to direct damage and channeled abilities
Frost = 8% boost to all damage, block cost reduction 36% and increase block damage by 20%

Indeed, this is the best of both worlds.
Not only increases the value of all staffs, but also allows players to freely choose the elements they need.

It is worth mentioning that in skyrim, the damage caused by magic is consistent, the difference is only the additional effects (fire-burn, ice-consume target stamina, electricity-consume target mana) and other additional effects (for example: fire- Explosion, Ice - slow-moving ice storm with a slow, Electric - automatically bounces between multiple targets and faster speed)
Of course, some people will argue that the burning effect of fire makes the damage higher than other elements. But using fire magic isn't always the best option because of the different perks. For example, when I want to attack a fast-moving target, it will be easier to focus on the target with electricity than fire, because the travel time of electricity is faster

Fairer elemental/magic damage is what players are after, I hope the official can understand.

Jazraena

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

No, it's less than 2% on your specific setup on trial dummies.This is not a niche the majority of the game operates in.

I don't need a parse, least of all one skewed by trial buffs and debuffs, to know that at the most extreme end, I do not utilize any relevant DoTs on my PvP build. I will have a flat choice between +12% damage on any skill that matters or +12% damage on status effects. This is a non-choice.

Equally, I don't need a parse to know that I do significantly more damage with direct damage effects compared to DoT effects because I did those calculations several times over for my choice in CP stars. Status effect damage will mitigate nowhere near enough of that, especially if, as presumed, DoT and Status bonus don't double-dip.

A handful of characters won't be hit as hard as others, one might even be close to equal, but for the vast majority of my staff users inferno staves will take the role lightning staves had before: The weaker choice.

And relegating that to 'eh, just switch staff, it's only 8 rosin' is nothing but disrespectful. You may not care for anything but the numerically superior choice, but some of us would very much maintain our power fantasy of fire magic and not throw that away just because ZOS thinks that today is Lightning Tuesday.

They're just shuffling elements from bad to good and vice versa, and make us jump through hoops while breaking up power fantasies.

And frankly, I've had far too much of that careless attitude to game balancing the past years. It's half-baked and needs to go back to the drawing board.

Firstly, as a sorc who has been wanting to run a lightning staff for almost a decade but couldn't because it's been so terrible for so long, suck it up. It's not "Lightning Tuesday" it's "Finally both staves are good".

Secondly you damn well do need to parse before you start crying all over the forums, because you literally have no real grasp of how much difference this is going to make. If the trial dummy isn't relevant to your situation, then use a 3m. If a dummy isn't going to do it for you, then get a friend with PTS and try duels. Right now you're just making stuff up and pretending it's as valid as the data other people, like myself, are literally posting on the forums.

Lets go for the most evident issue, because I am eager to hear how exactly you figure that a MagSorc in PvP is going to profit from a fire staff compared to lightning.

Don't tell me to parse. Tell me which abilities profit from it, and which do not.

Jazraena

IAVITNI wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

At this point, why not just split the buff into two components.

Have destro increase all damage by, say, 8% for ALL staffs + additional flavour buff.

Benefits

1. Build Consistency
This makes it less punishing for builds that don't fit into a specific niche (DoTs vs Direct or Single Target vs AoE) but still leaves room in power budget for unique identity to each staff.

2. Segments Power Budget
This also splits the damage buff, meaning you can do something like the following:

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 2/4%
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4%
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20%

This also provides additional benefits

• Enables individual balancing of Fire vs Lightning
• Narrows gap for Frost dps due to lack of Tri Focus damage components while still keeping Frost damage as a defensive oriented staff

Taking this one step further:
Bespoke damage buffs

• Inferno Staves now increase your damage done with Damage over Time effects by 3/6% (Net damage buff 11/14%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

Bespoke buff approaches

• Inferno Staves now increase your chance to apply status effects by 100/200% (Net damage buff 8/8%)
• Lightning Staves now increase your damage done with direct damage and channeled effects by 2/4% (Net damage buff 10/12%)
• Frost Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and decreases the amount of damage you block by 20% (Net damage buff 8/8%)

it's not really that punishing compared to the old system. as the old system was encounter based. you have to use x staff here and y staff there. now it's dependant on how you build which is better. individual tuning may need to change, but we're still on the pts.

From the continued sky is falling comments, I think it's safe to say that a lot of people still feel punished.

The idea between a flat 8% damage boost for equipping any destro with an additional 4 or n % buff to DoTs/Direct damage etc. is that anytime you equip a weapon, you get a power boost.

Let's compare 2h to destro staffs by looking at two naked characters, no skill points or CP invested.

Next, equip one with a 2h sword and the other with a fire destro. This is our baseline of power - one where we assume each character is equally as powerful, ignoring difference in base weapon damage.

If both characters run around, they would be expected to have the same level of efficiency. Everyone is happy because both builds are balanced.

Now let's give each character 2 skill point to invest.

Each character invests 1 skill point into their weapon passive:
* Heavy Weapons for the 2h character
* Ancient Knowledge for the destro character

Now we have 1 remaining point that MUST be invested in an offensive ability.

No matter where the 2h character invests this skill point, their weapon will buff that ability. Sure, some abilities will benefit more from flat damage than others, but no matter what ability or class, the passive provides a power boost.

Compare this to the (PTS) Fire destro. You have to be selective of what ability you invest in, otherwise you receive no benefit.

A flat 8% boost to all damage on all destros + n% boost to Direct/DoT/etc. solves this issue. No matter what class or build, investing into a passive provides a benefit. There's still rewards for smart players who choose to build around their staff, but no player feels completely robbed.

And again, this opens up options like
Fire Destro = 8% boost to all damage, 24% boost to DoTs and Status Effect damage
Lightning = 8% boost to all damage, 4% boost to direct damage and channeled abilities
Frost = 8% boost to all damage, block cost reduction 36% and increase block damage by 20%

While numbers are arguable, that is definitely the better approach.

Let all elements shine instead of giving one or the other hard 10%+ advantages. Definitely don't make Bows the superior option to either.

JerBearESO

Faulgor wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

It should have been flat 250 status effect damage boost.

Yeah 12% is basically of what 500-800 damage on average, keeping in mind burning and poisoned are already DoTs so they don't actually benefit from this? So that 60-96 damage per status effect, ish...? It's the right direction but not the right numbers here.

250 flat boost would be awesome, but even just doubling up on the % here would be ok. Though I haven't tested anything, and I could be wrong. The 12% to status could very well decimate all who dare oppose the great and fear inspiring tickling

A percent increase is fine and better suited than a flat amount, since it will less likely affect PvP this way. The first iteration with 500 bonus damage on status effects was broken in PvP with the right build and melted people. Even 250, 300 or 400 as suggested will do lots of damage done right. In the meantime a percentage increase could benefit PvE dps better, since a flat increase there is miniscule compared to the total dps, while a percentage might see more value.

No. Poisoned, Burning and Bleed damage are already buffed by dot damage increase. They don't doubledip with another 12% to status effects. 12% boost will only apply to instant damaging status effects which hardly do 1.5-2% of your overall damage. With the only exception of wardens, nobody will benefit from this.

And wardens are surely better off with ice staff giving +10% to everything, over other staffs that give 12% to some stuff.

I have three chars that make extensive use of status effects.
One, a Frost Warden for obvious reason.
Two, a Shock Sorcerer specced into Concussion to proc Storm-Cursed's Revenge more reliably.
Three, Dragon's Appetite/Serpent's Disdain DW DK with Bleed/Burning/Poison through the roof.

None will profit from an Inferno staff. I can see the concept they were going for, but it doesn't seem to be supported in the game as of now. I suppose the DK could move DW to the backbar and run Inferno front, but what's the benefit? All necessary skills are melee range anyway.

Arcanist would seem like an obvious fit with its built-in buff to status effects, but how many status effects can Arcanists even apply with their normal rotation?

Kinda off topic but just briefly, does storm curse really proc from concussion? I thought procs don't proc from status effect.

On topic now, I actually like the idea of DK taking dual backbar, with flames for crit on back, and perhaps have an offensive workaround to the crit loss on front. Maybe mechanical acuity. Or even try malacath. The boost to survivability with increased crit healing would be hilarious. But alas the boost to status effects the way they have it adds nearly nothing to such a concept.... I could see it and other status effect builds working out better with a portion of the flat boost they had previously

Lalothen

I think they've missed the mark again with this "niche" buff. It's not really niche since it applies to status effects which naturally constitute a part of the DPS of most builds (even if you're not specced for it, chances are you're using one or more abilities that procs one or more status effects with varying degrees of regularity during combat). It's also weak enough that it's going to be barely noticeable in most cases.

I feel like the niche buff for inferno staves could instead be a buff to abilities with a cast time (Frags being the go-to example), or arming time (examples include Barbed Trap, Daedric Mines, Volcanic Rune).

ZhuJiuyin

Lalothen wrote: »

I feel like the niche buff for inferno staves could instead be a buff to abilities with a cast time (Frags being the go-to example), or arming time (examples include Barbed Trap, Daedric Mines, Volcanic Rune).

It's a good idea to change the effect of inferno staves to enhance dot and cast time.
However, considering the proportion of dot in the composition of DPS, and the inevitable loss of DPS in the casting time, the buff should be increased from the original 6/12% to 10/20%.

This may also allow Arcanist to have more choices in PVP and PVE, such as increasing the possibility of choosing Tentacular Dread deformation

Mr_Jord_Joe

I honest like to see critical chance on staffs... and option to ice staff be a potential dps staff... Like bonus on crit chance because status effect apply critical damage bonus on target...

SandandStars

so dw maces give you 3300 pen + 6% increased dmg based on your left hand weapon.

say you run masters dw like every sweaty (effective) simp in pvp these days, so youre getting the huge dmg benefit of doubling the hit dmg of twin slashes.

now, as a pvper who tries really hard to use ranged magicka builds…

how are staves competitive with the dual wield + masters dw bonuses?

from my (pvp) perspective, they dont even perform well for magicka builds…

FrancisCrawford

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Anyhow, status effect builds will always be more powerful in PvP than PvE, for reasons other than the immediate damage:

• You're less likely to have other group members applying the effects there.
• Minor Defile matters.

So they'll never be allowed to have meaningful value in PvE.

Who says they'll never be allowed to have meaningful value in pve???? Status effects are frost warden's biggest damage outputter outside of maybe bear.

Fair enough.

Lalothen

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

It's a good idea to change the effect of inferno staves to enhance dot and cast time.
However, considering the proportion of dot in the composition of DPS, and the inevitable loss of DPS in the casting time, the buff should be increased from the original 6/12% to 10/20%.

This may also allow Arcanist to have more choices in PVP and PVE, such as increasing the possibility of choosing Tentacular Dread deformation

20% might be a bit too high, but I'd definitely support exploration of the range between 12-20% to find a sweet spot. I think the important comparison over the coming months after U39 hits live, is going to be destruction staves vs. bows. If Inferno & Lightning are consistently behind Bow then there's cause to push the Ancient Knowledge values upwards a bit until they're comparable.