U39 - PTS Endeavours: more choice is less it seems

prof_doom

The weekly ones from the screenshot are okay, but more tedious, the daily ones are most definitely a backward step.

Maybe the 350 kills weekly is actually alright, as I think about it. Yeah, it's bigger than the more specific ones, but since everything counts, I think that's fair.

I think I'm willing to accept the "with a guildmate" stuff, since this is supposed to be a multiplayer game.

If they insist on going this route, they're gonna need a lot more endeavors per day/week to pick from, because as other people have pointed out, it's going to be very constricting for people missing DLC, or who play at times that it's hard to find a guildmate willing to run something with you.

GooGa592

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Is this ZOS' idea on trying to revitalize older content more? They're also so much more specific, and I have a feeling that new players could be locked out of specific endeavors based off their difficulty and it being DLC they don't have. That basically means less people would be making use of the endeavor system.

These endeavors make it seem like the goal is to make endeavors much harder to get. If every day the endeavors look like what is posted it will probably take 2 years to get 16k endeavors.

Luke_Flamesword

Most sad thing is that there is a lot talking now betweeen players and streamers how poor rewards are in this game compared to other MMOs and still they only think how to limit rewards even more, because apparently farmed every day Endevours with opportunity to buyout 1% of crown store offers is still too much good for players, so there is need to limit this even more...

It's really hard for me to express my feelings about this without breaking rules of forum, so I will only tell that there is too many vibe of f2p game, but this is not f2p game. I'm starting wonder is there any reason to pay for eso+ and chapters in game which gives typical frustration of that kind of games...

Ashryn

I've been in ESO for a very long time and have no inclination to do group content, card games, trials or dungeons for endeavors. Although I occasionally enjoy PVP, I wouldn't want capturing towns or resources in Daily endeavors either. I do these things WHEN I am in the mood ...at my own free will! A game ceases to be fun when you are forced to dance to someone else's tune!

Well, I doubt they will read all this and make changes to this at all. In fact, with so many saying they won't do endeavors, will probably be viewed with joy.

starkerealm

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

...so I will only tell that there is too many vibe of f2p game, but this is not f2p game. I'm starting wonder is there any reason to pay for eso+ and chapters in game which gives typical frustration of that kind of games...

Nah, even actual F2P games with genuine P2W are more generous than this. Endeavors this restrictive would make sense if they were actually handing out crowns for completing them. Not seals that you can redeem for vouchers, on the Thursday after never.

starkerealm

prof_doom wrote: »

I think I'm willing to accept the "with a guildmate" stuff, since this is supposed to be a multiplayer game.

I'm not. For a couple reasons. First, the guilds that I actually ran content with have mostly disbanded. I don't want to leave those guilds, because I sometimes have social interactions with them, and in two cases it's straight up sentimentality that keeps me around. My active guilds are both trade guilds. So... they're about selling things, not running content.

So, I'm supposed to abandon a guild with friends who have migrated to other games for 10 seals? Yeah, uh, no.

BergisMacBride

Tin foil hat part of me thinks this is a not so subtle attempt to decrease seals earned in order to prop up crown crate sales.

Odd thing is - I've never even spent any of my seals lol. I just think it's neat to accumulate them and get that feeling of a mini- daily achievement when one is done. And 99% of the time I don't need to do anything outside of my normal in game activities, I just played the game and I completely them like they originally intended.

This was one system of their game that was not broken or in need of a major overhaul and it boggles the mind they are apparently changing it in this way. Quality of life update, indeed

Elsonso

Ashryn wrote: »

I've been in ESO for a very long time and have no inclination to do group content, card games, trials or dungeons for endeavors. Although I occasionally enjoy PVP, I wouldn't want capturing towns or resources in Daily endeavors either. I do these things WHEN I am in the mood ...at my own free will! A game ceases to be fun when you are forced to dance to someone else's tune!

Well, I doubt they will read all this and make changes to this at all. In fact, with so many saying they won't do endeavors, will probably be viewed with joy.

They will read it. However, this is probably someone's pride and joy and so I don't expect them to be eager to roll it back, if they even see that the complaints are valid. Often times, development teams are practiced at explaining away criticism from users when a "pride and joy" generates negative comments. Human nature, I suppose.

colossalvoids

@ZOS_Kevin hey, is it actually intended to go like that to the live server after testing or there's some misconception and we're not aware of?

lemonizzle

The challenges were usually bordering on easy/just enough to bother, no need to make them any more complicated. I don't do dailies anymore that are not a few minutes long, personally - like deconstruct x items, complete x quests (crafting). Same with weeklies, 100 resource, 200 enemy with class ability (1x skyreach) is doable. Won't do 1 trial just for 10 endeavours.

Morimizo

FayJolyn wrote: »

These changes are such a stab in the back for those that:
A) play solo
B ) don't have all the DLCs
C) are new to dungeons/trials
D) have limited time
E) play during off-peak hours
F) Don't care for that silly card game
G) did not join guilds

And how much of the active playerbase does this include? (a fair few I would imagine) Why purposely irritate/anger/frustrate/disgust so many? Word of advice to the devs: when making any change or adding something new, ask yourselves: is it inclusive, or exclusive? Chuck it out if it leans into the latter.

What would work better is to add all these new specific endeavors, rather than replace the current crop, and assign a more reasonable seal award to them. Why not 5 easy-going choices for 10 or 15 as usual, and 5 of the new batch for 50? No one is excluded then.

Problem is of course, that the main idea is to severely limit the amount of seals available and increase the crate sales. Good luck with that.

emilyhyoyeon

starkerealm wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

I think I'm willing to accept the "with a guildmate" stuff, since this is supposed to be a multiplayer game.

I'm not. For a couple reasons. First, the guilds that I actually ran content with have mostly disbanded. I don't want to leave those guilds, because I sometimes have social interactions with them, and in two cases it's straight up sentimentality that keeps me around. My active guilds are both trade guilds. So... they're about selling things, not running content.

So, I'm supposed to abandon a guild with friends who have migrated to other games for 10 seals? Yeah, uh, no.

The another annoying thing about the ''with a guildmate'' ones is that whether or not you get your seals depends on someone else, not you. I am at the mercy of someone else to earn my seals.

I kinda hate the dueling ones for that reason, but at least duels are quick, and I just tell people I'll let them kill me, or do a different endeavor which, up to now on PTS, hasn't been an issue.

BergisMacBride

Elsonso wrote: »

They will read it. However, this is probably someone's pride and joy and so I don't expect them to be eager to roll it back, if they even see that the complaints are valid. Often times, development teams are practiced at explaining away criticism from users when a "pride and joy" generates negative comments. Human nature, I suppose.

I would venture that this is probably why most "bad" or inexplicable changes go through as is - pride and personal ownership. People want to stick with their bad ideas to the bitter end because they don't want to be seen as wrong or perceived as a failure by their peers.Like you said, human nature. Much better just to own it, do a mea culpa and move on, imo.

@ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_GinaBruno - please let the devs know these changes so far are not up the standard of improving the quality of life in the "Quality of Life" update.

MoonPile

What the actual hell? These are terrible. I play this game to relax and escape from IRL [snip]. I came back recently and actually enjoyed Endeavors as a nice, stress-free task to accomplish between work projects. It was a reason to log in.

I'm NOT coming to this game to work even more. Why make it so miserable? @ZOS_GinaBruno sorry to @ but come on, this blows chunks.

[edited for profanity bypass]

tomofhyrule

One thing I'd mention about the "do a BG with a guildmate" thing is... the queues.

During the last MYM, I was grouped with one of my friends and we sat in the group BG queue for 30 minutes before we decided to disband. I don't know what the MMR magic is doing, but some players who have high MMR just can't ever seem to get into another BG again. It wasn't until we broke group and queued solo that all of us eventually got in (and in some matches, we were even on the same team).

If group BGs is going to be a thing, there should also be some relief to make queueing for BGs as a group not interminably painful. Perhaps if BG MMR could be reset every so often so BG players could eventually get back into matches?

MoonPile

BergisMacBride wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

They will read it. However, this is probably someone's pride and joy and so I don't expect them to be eager to roll it back, if they even see that the complaints are valid. Often times, development teams are practiced at explaining away criticism from users when a "pride and joy" generates negative comments. Human nature, I suppose.

I would venture that this is probably why most "bad" or inexplicable changes go through as is - pride and personal ownership. People want to stick with their bad ideas to the bitter end because they don't want to be seen as wrong or perceived as a failure by their peers.Like you said, human nature. Much better just to own it, do a mea culpa and move on, imo.

@ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_GinaBruno - please let the devs know these changes so far are not up the standard of improving the quality of life in the "Quality of Life" update.

Agree. It also feels like "whoops we made a card game most people hate" so they choose to push it on everyone by locking items in it, like these and new antiquities, that have nothing whatsoever to do with that game.

There's nothing wrong with saying a piece of content is not for everyone and just leaving it to those who enjoy it. No shame in saying "the reception was not what we hoped. Ok, let's take another look, try a different approach." I hope someone can step up and do that.

Lady_Sleepless

When I saw they were updating endeavours I assumed that meant they were adding more. So like 10 daily endeavours to choose from. A bit of a shame that it's the same amount but more specific and less player friendly. FO76 did this sort of thing and it drove players away.

Painik

I will just say that for me current daily endeavours are small fun activity I can do in few minutes every day, sometimes I don't bother, but usually I do, because they are easy.

If they will become more tedious and too specific as shown on those pictures, I will be leaving them out because it would be just another annoyance.

This game should not be a part-time job when it comes to accumulating a few seals.

tomofhyrule

I would say that Tribute is actually a perfect thing for a Daily Endeavor.

I know that there's a (large) portion of people on the forums who can't stand it and everything about it, but that is the point of having 5 Endeavors is that you can choose not to do one of them that you find distasteful. It's actually a surprise that it wasn't included before.

I'm just concerned about the specific dungeon/trial endeavors here and the commitment they'll end up needing, plus the ideas of functioning queue systems (which we've seen that BG queues are spotty and trial queues are nonexistant).

Now I could believe that they're adding this specificity because it's the Undaunted event, but even then having so many event-related endeavors is tough. Other events have had things like "Do a Holiday Quest" as an endeavor, or we got a few "Repair walls"/"Do damage with Siege" ones in the last MYM, but we never had more than two Endeavors in a day that were related to the event. Usually we only had one event-related Endeavor, if any. That does mean a player who chooses not to participate in the event (at least in full) can still do their Endeavors.

I suppose the test will be to see what Endeavors are offered next week. Based on the timing, I'd guess that the Necrom Celebration event would be the next one they test, so let's see if it ends up giving us things like "Do 2 Bastion Nymics" (please no more than 1 for a daily) or "Kill 10 Apocrypha enemies" that may not be as intense to complete. As long as it doesn't give up things that are too specific like "Kill Runemaster Xiomara while grouped with 3 guildmates."

HappyTheCamper

Yea this absolutely cannot go live. There have been a lot of controversial changes over the years, but one I remember standing out was when they proposed new light and heavy attack changes a few years ago and the community unanimously hated it (which is very rare lol.)

Same thing is happening here. Reading this thread it’s obviously clear no one who plays this game, at any difficulty level, on any platform, is happy about these changes. It’s very clearly a way to discourage people from doing the endeavors to push more people into purchasing the filthy crown crates.

I’ll definitely be paying attention to this change in the coming PTS weeks. Thanks to OP and all others for sharing this information.

jaws343

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Yea this absolutely cannot go live. There have been a lot of controversial changes over the years, but one I remember standing out was when they proposed new light and heavy attack changes a few years ago and the community unanimously hated it (which is very rare lol.)

Same thing is happening here. Reading this thread it’s obviously clear no one who plays this game, at any difficulty level, on any platform, is happy about these changes. It’s very clearly a way to discourage people from doing the endeavors to push more people into purchasing the filthy crown crates.

I’ll definitely be paying attention to this change in the coming PTS weeks. Thanks to OP and all others for sharing this information.

I play the game. I welcome a larger variety of endeavor activities.

Jaimeh

This is an appalling change, and in direct contradiction to what ZOS devs very clearly stated that endeavours would be things that players do incidentally during their gameplay--there is nothing incidental about jumping into Fang Lair.

It's just one more example of ZOS' history of having systems that are introduced in a benign way and then get progressively player-unfriendly (like crown crates): when endeavours were introduced they awarded a lot more seals which have been decreased over time (has been demonstrated statistically by players here in the forums), the choices have become more difficult and also more time consuming, for eg., the objectives saying 'craft/decorate/kill/poison and so on X number of things' has increased, and now they are making the objectives hyper-specific, so instead of 'any trial/dungeon/arena' we get specific ones. Just awful, and this kind of greed (because less seals collected means more incentive to buy crowns when something a player wants drops in the crates) is why we can never have nice things.

HappyTheCamper

jaws343 wrote: »

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Yea this absolutely cannot go live. There have been a lot of controversial changes over the years, but one I remember standing out was when they proposed new light and heavy attack changes a few years ago and the community unanimously hated it (which is very rare lol.)

Same thing is happening here. Reading this thread it’s obviously clear no one who plays this game, at any difficulty level, on any platform, is happy about these changes. It’s very clearly a way to discourage people from doing the endeavors to push more people into purchasing the filthy crown crates.

I’ll definitely be paying attention to this change in the coming PTS weeks. Thanks to OP and all others for sharing this information.

I play the game. I welcome a larger variety of endeavor activities.

That’s fair, but these changes are not that at all. It’s very evident if someone actually *reads* the new examples in the pictures.

No one can even remotely pretend that’s even true. No acting coach could make me believe someone actually supports the specific suggested changes. These are not “a larger variety of activities”, it’s the exact opposite. These are pigeon-holed, dlc specific, unfriendly time-consuming grinds that are not “daily” repeatables. They do not encourage more options; they force you to do more with way less.

This is one of the worst changes they’ve come up with. This is not a hyperbolic opinion. They literally make no sense by any means.

chessalavakia_ESO

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One thing I'd mention about the "do a BG with a guildmate" thing is... the queues.

During the last MYM, I was grouped with one of my friends and we sat in the group BG queue for 30 minutes before we decided to disband. I don't know what the MMR magic is doing, but some players who have high MMR just can't ever seem to get into another BG again. It wasn't until we broke group and queued solo that all of us eventually got in (and in some matches, we were even on the same team).

If group BGs is going to be a thing, there should also be some relief to make queueing for BGs as a group not interminably painful. Perhaps if BG MMR could be reset every so often so BG players could eventually get back into matches?

Group BGs are a separate queue than solo BGs.

Group BGs don't pop because next to nobody wants to PvP against a coordinated group and as a result most of us don't queue for Group BGs.

I'd assume the endeavor is designed specifically to try to make that queue have more population so that it would pop faster.

Lumenn

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Yea this absolutely cannot go live. There have been a lot of controversial changes over the years, but one I remember standing out was when they proposed new light and heavy attack changes a few years ago and the community unanimously hated it (which is very rare lol.)

Same thing is happening here. Reading this thread it’s obviously clear no one who plays this game, at any difficulty level, on any platform, is happy about these changes. It’s very clearly a way to discourage people from doing the endeavors to push more people into purchasing the filthy crown crates.

I’ll definitely be paying attention to this change in the coming PTS weeks. Thanks to OP and all others for sharing this information.

I play the game. I welcome a larger variety of endeavor activities.

This is one of the worst changes they’ve come up with. This is not a hyperbolic opinion. They literally make no sense by any means.

No, it actually makes perfect sense if quarterly reports were a big concern. And next quarter? Well, that's next quarters concern. SO glad I'm out of that rat race....

jaws343

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Yea this absolutely cannot go live. There have been a lot of controversial changes over the years, but one I remember standing out was when they proposed new light and heavy attack changes a few years ago and the community unanimously hated it (which is very rare lol.)

Same thing is happening here. Reading this thread it’s obviously clear no one who plays this game, at any difficulty level, on any platform, is happy about these changes. It’s very clearly a way to discourage people from doing the endeavors to push more people into purchasing the filthy crown crates.

I’ll definitely be paying attention to this change in the coming PTS weeks. Thanks to OP and all others for sharing this information.

I play the game. I welcome a larger variety of endeavor activities.

That’s fair, but these changes are not that at all. It’s very evident if someone actually *reads* the new examples in the pictures.

No one can even remotely pretend that’s even true. No acting coach could make me believe someone actually supports the specific suggested changes. These are not “a larger variety of activities”, it’s the exact opposite. These are pigeon-holed, dlc specific, unfriendly time-consuming grinds that are not “daily” repeatables. They do not encourage more options; they force you to do more with way less.

This is one of the worst changes they’ve come up with. This is not a hyperbolic opinion. They literally make no sense by any means.

I mean, doing a dungeon is literally a thing that someone may do through the course of their play time for the day. Making it a specific dungeon gives players a reason to do that dungeon.

From the list of things that have been shown so far, I'd absolutely do the following:

Day 1:
Complete Banished Cells 1 - Ok, 10-15 minutes on my own, loot some things, maybe get some companion gear drops with my companion out.
Complete Fang Lair - Sure, ~30 mins on my own. But, if it were an endeavour, the direct queue for the dungeon is going to be fast, so probably a fairly quick 4 man run on normal. Fill out that sticker book.
Abyssal Geyser - That's a gimme
Tribute Match - NPC match takes a few minutes, has some drops from Necrom.

So 4/5 on that day 1. I'd do Hel Ra depending on the day, and if there were a group running it. But I'd not go out of my way for it. But also, I think it is perfectly fine that Endeavors also cater to players who may also do multiple trials per day, of whom, this endeavor could fit into their play session perfectly.

Day 2:
Complete Banished Cells 2 - Same as BC1, ~15 minutes alone, companion gear drop potential. Also leads for antiquities.
Scalecaller - ~30 mins solo, and a repeat of everything I said around Fang Lair
Defeat 1 Dragon - Also a gimme

So 3/5 that day. Same for Sanctum as I said for Hel Ra. And I don't really do Group BGs, but if a guild mate posted for someone to join them in some because it was the daily, I'd X up and join in. And also, having PVP related Endeavors is perfectly valid. Pretty much, if it is an activity that a player can participate in this game, there is no reason that an Endeavor should not be associated with it. Players' refusal to participate in some of that content is not a legitimate reason.

Again though, I'll reiterate, I highly doubt the configuration of endeavors seen on PTS will even remotely match how they will be grouped on Live. Generally, they provide Endeavor activities that are all unique in their focus in game. The PTS is showing 2 dungeon dailies at the same time, I'd bet that will never happen, ever, on live. They are very very clearly showing off the new options that may come up.

Also, given that Fang Lair, followed by Scalecaller, is the general Pledge rotation order, it wouldn't shock me if these specific dungeons were paired with daily pledges.

acastanza_ESO

The new endeavors are completely unacceptable and a total violation of the principles they stated when they introduced the system. It must be reverted @ZOS_RichLambert. Going through with this change means you lied to us about them being "normal daily activities".

BergisMacBride

jaws343 wrote: »

I play the game. I welcome a larger variety of endeavor activities.

I agree. I'm all for a larger variety of endeavor activities and I think most folks are as well. It's just the ones we've seen thus far are for the most part pretty bad and/or exclusionary.

ToT game? I'm fine with that although probably wouldn't do it personally.
Specific dungeon or trial? - NOPE
One dungeon or trial?- fine
World event in a paticular zone (geyser, dolmen, nymics, volcanos, deadlands portals) - fine
Kill 1 world boss in x zone - fine (always thought we needed this one)
Kill specific world boss in x zone - NOPE

It's the specificity and exclusivity of the new endeavors that's causing the outcry. Endeavors were started as relatively easy activities that most folks could finish and accomplish in a normal day or week of activity. What we've seen so far on PTS is a pretty big step AWAY from that approach and philsophy, hence the displeasure.

Milanesa_Napolitana

This is awful, they're doing this to push the sale of crown crates while telling us it's an improvement.

DarcyMardin

I currently do my endeavors on several accounts every day. Sometimes I ask myself why I bother, and the only answer I’ve come up with is that the small surges of dopamine I get from completing these daily tasks keep me signing in each day — for ten years (well, it’ll be 10 in November…if I am still here).

My favorites endeavors are the easy ones — eat four foods, craft five clothing items, enchant five pieces of equipment, update one outfit, repair 10,000 damage in Cyrodiil (I don’t PvP, but that one is easy), even do one dungeon (I can solo most easy base game dungeons). My favorite weekly endeavor is collect 100 nodes — both quick and beneficial to me as a crafter.

These endeavors, even on more than one account, are relatively simple to whip thru, leaving me plenty of time to do other things in game. They’re even fun, and, as I said, the little blip of accomplishment is nice, and helps to make up for all those vanished achievements that used to flash so often across my screen on my alts back before we had account-wide achievements.

This PTS change sounds horrible! Specific dungeons, especially DLC dungeons. Nope. I play solo. Trials? I’ve never done one yet and won’t be starting now. The infamous card game? /runs away screaming. I might not see that 10 year anniversary after all, if this change goes through.