So is there going to be an official ZOS comment on 100m Essence Of Detection potions change?

Lucifer9th

Mayrael wrote: »

Lucifer9th wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Counters to invisibility fulfill their purpose in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. They're not supposed to be skills that suddenly completely remove the ability to use invisibility, no matter what, because what would be the point of invisibility if anyone could just turn it off with a single button press?

Counters are supposed to be more expensive because you have to use them at the right moment and not spam them non-stop. If you don't understand this, then you still have a lot to learn.

I did not talk about using non stop, you have to use every 4 sec during the counter attack on a cloak nb, 4 sec is quite few to kill when roll dodge, healthy offering exists and you have to keep be as possible at close melee range with him,

You talk about counter to be more expensive, I don't think counter of streak are more expensive, they put ramping cost which was fair

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cloak also takes up a skill slot. And magelight gives buffs beyond seeing invisible things.

When not being activated, the cloak skill and the one morph that continues to allow invisibility, does nothing for the user if slotted and not utilized.
Magelight continues to give buffs as long as it’s on the bar. No mana required.

Want the two to cost the same? Magelight would need a nerf.

Cloak gives you major resolve when casted (you don't have to slot a skill which gives you major resolve which means 1 slot bonus), next attack crit when casted and 3% max health when slotted (and it's part of your gameplay)
magelight gives you major prophecy on 1 bar when slotted and not when casted so you can't benefit of more crit rate on both bar just with it and imagine having to modify one skill of your build just to counter 1 gameplay when slots are important

Gapclosers take a slot to and have usage otside of only chasing sorcs, there was a time when each meele build had to have gapcloser on a bar not because of sorcs but because it was the best tool to move around the battlefield, nothing has changed but some people are not willing to place gapclosers on their bars because they preffer to have more buffs, and then complain about streaking sorc - they have the tools but refuse to use it.

Also streak works always, just to be precise here - it moves sorc from point A to B always and you can't counter it, you can just react to it, while cloak can be prevented or completly wasted you feel the difference?

I just use streak as example to answer the fact "counter have to be more expensive" (i am sure they exist other example) because it's cheaper than a gapcloser which is the obvious counter to it, but you just argue about people don't using gapcloser where it's not the subject when we talk about using skills to counter invisibility because it's needed

and if you are afraid your cloak being wasted, they exists tools as shadow image to be sure being outside of the little range of detect skills so if you are enough smart you will not wast your cloak, just it will take another skill slot but it's fine, you don't have to slot major resolve skill and other people have to slot detect skills

To conclude, I think a large majority of player are ok with the fact to give some strength to the active effect of detect skills and this will not delete the spam cloak gameplay, nb have a really good toolkit to deal with it

BlueRaven

Lucifer9th wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Counters to invisibility fulfill their purpose in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. They're not supposed to be skills that suddenly completely remove the ability to use invisibility, no matter what, because what would be the point of invisibility if anyone could just turn it off with a single button press?

Counters are supposed to be more expensive because you have to use them at the right moment and not spam them non-stop. If you don't understand this, then you still have a lot to learn.

I did not talk about using non stop, you have to use every 4 sec during the counter attack on a cloak nb, 4 sec is quite few to kill when roll dodge, healthy offering exists and you have to keep be as possible at close melee range with him,

You talk about counter to be more expensive, I don't think counter of streak are more expensive, they put ramping cost which was fair

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cloak also takes up a skill slot. And magelight gives buffs beyond seeing invisible things.

When not being activated, the cloak skill and the one morph that continues to allow invisibility, does nothing for the user if slotted and not utilized.
Magelight continues to give buffs as long as it’s on the bar. No mana required.

Want the two to cost the same? Magelight would need a nerf.

Cloak gives you major resolve when casted (you don't have to slot a skill which gives you major resolve which means 1 slot bonus), next attack crit when casted and 3% max health when slotted (and it's part of your gameplay)
magelight gives you major prophecy on 1 bar when slotted and not when casted so you can't benefit of more crit rate on both bar just with it and imagine having to modify one skill of your build just to counter 1 gameplay when slots are important

“When casted” vs all the time. And (since we are now talking about the morphs) magelight offers a choice of not being stunned while slotted (for the entire group) or increasing your magika again while slotted. That’s a lot of stuff it’s doing (for no magika cost and always on.)

Cloak increased crit net cost is on its initial cast AND then upon firing an attack all within a tiny window of time. (That would include the bar swap if necessary).

It’s called a trade off.

Either a high attack (in a short window burst) vs long term buffs plus short term utility.

I should also add, the attack ends the invisibility part of cloak as well.

ShadowProc

Lucifer9th wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Counters to invisibility fulfill their purpose in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. They're not supposed to be skills that suddenly completely remove the ability to use invisibility, no matter what, because what would be the point of invisibility if anyone could just turn it off with a single button press?

Counters are supposed to be more expensive because you have to use them at the right moment and not spam them non-stop. If you don't understand this, then you still have a lot to learn.

I did not talk about using non stop, you have to use every 4 sec during the counter attack on a cloak nb, 4 sec is quite few to kill when roll dodge, healthy offering exists and you have to keep be as possible at close melee range with him,

You talk about counter to be more expensive, I don't think counter of streak are more expensive, they put ramping cost which was fair

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cloak also takes up a skill slot. And magelight gives buffs beyond seeing invisible things.

When not being activated, the cloak skill and the one morph that continues to allow invisibility, does nothing for the user if slotted and not utilized.
Magelight continues to give buffs as long as it’s on the bar. No mana required.

Want the two to cost the same? Magelight would need a nerf.

Cloak gives you major resolve when casted (you don't have to slot a skill which gives you major resolve which means 1 slot bonus), next attack crit when casted and 3% max health when slotted (and it's part of your gameplay)
magelight gives you major prophecy on 1 bar when slotted and not when casted so you can't benefit of more crit rate on both bar just with it and imagine having to modify one skill of your build just to counter 1 gameplay when slots are important

Missing a key point though. Cloak is not reliable and often has to be spammed.

Mayrael

Lucifer9th wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Lucifer9th wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Counters to invisibility fulfill their purpose in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. They're not supposed to be skills that suddenly completely remove the ability to use invisibility, no matter what, because what would be the point of invisibility if anyone could just turn it off with a single button press?

Counters are supposed to be more expensive because you have to use them at the right moment and not spam them non-stop. If you don't understand this, then you still have a lot to learn.

I did not talk about using non stop, you have to use every 4 sec during the counter attack on a cloak nb, 4 sec is quite few to kill when roll dodge, healthy offering exists and you have to keep be as possible at close melee range with him,

You talk about counter to be more expensive, I don't think counter of streak are more expensive, they put ramping cost which was fair

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cloak also takes up a skill slot. And magelight gives buffs beyond seeing invisible things.

When not being activated, the cloak skill and the one morph that continues to allow invisibility, does nothing for the user if slotted and not utilized.
Magelight continues to give buffs as long as it’s on the bar. No mana required.

Want the two to cost the same? Magelight would need a nerf.

Cloak gives you major resolve when casted (you don't have to slot a skill which gives you major resolve which means 1 slot bonus), next attack crit when casted and 3% max health when slotted (and it's part of your gameplay)
magelight gives you major prophecy on 1 bar when slotted and not when casted so you can't benefit of more crit rate on both bar just with it and imagine having to modify one skill of your build just to counter 1 gameplay when slots are important

Gapclosers take a slot to and have usage otside of only chasing sorcs, there was a time when each meele build had to have gapcloser on a bar not because of sorcs but because it was the best tool to move around the battlefield, nothing has changed but some people are not willing to place gapclosers on their bars because they preffer to have more buffs, and then complain about streaking sorc - they have the tools but refuse to use it.

Also streak works always, just to be precise here - it moves sorc from point A to B always and you can't counter it, you can just react to it, while cloak can be prevented or completly wasted you feel the difference?

I just use streak as example to answer the fact "counter have to be more expensive" (i am sure they exist other example) because it's cheaper than a gapcloser which is the obvious counter to it, but you just argue about people don't using gapcloser where it's not the subject when we talk about using skills to counter invisibility because it's needed

and if you are afraid your cloak being wasted, they exists tools as shadow image to be sure being outside of the little range of detect skills so if you are enough smart you will not wast your cloak, just it will take another skill slot but it's fine, you don't have to slot major resolve skill and other people have to slot detect skills

To conclude, I think a large majority of player are ok with the fact to give some strength to the active effect of detect skills and this will not delete the spam cloak gameplay, nb have a really good toolkit to deal with it

So you gave a bad example because these skills work in very different ways. We can go back and forth on this endlessly, why? Because Streak works more like Shadow Image and Mass Hysteria combined, you get two skills in one and we can keep going like this indefinitely, jumping from class to class.

Why don't you compare two skills that are more similar in their function, like Hardened Ward and Cloak? Both prevent the caster from dying, both provide protection from damage, Cloak against single targets and weak damage over time effects, while Hardened protects against all types of damage except for oblivion. One skill lasts for 6 seconds and the other for 3 seconds, you can attack while using one and it wont break while the other one will, one buffs your attack the other one doesn't, one has a guaranteed effect while the other does not, both have counters (Cloak has more and stronger counters, while the counters for Hardened are limited to oblivion damage). One scales with stats, the other always has a fixed strength, etc. etc. The grass always seems greener on the other side.

Mayrael

I think this thread can be closed since the matter has already been explained, and further discussions about the mechanics of invisibility and its counters can be conducted elsewhere in more appropriate places.

Bushido2513

Mayrael wrote: »

Of course, you're right that a small sample could easily lead to distorting the overall trend. That's why I provided the total number of kills on my character, because while the game and addon count kills differently, with a fairly large sample size, statistics start to work and show the overall trend.

Ahhh I can see your point there. I mean with a large number there's statistically enough chance that you were in several 1v1 scenarios where you countered with a reveal technique and secured the kill.

Mayrael wrote: »

So, yes, the Nightblade also fits into the theme of running away when you see that you can't win, which actually leads us to the point where we can say that regardless of whether it's using LoS, speed, or invisibility, all of these things frustrate those who believe that no one has the right to avoid being killed in the game. It seems to me (and this is only my opinion, not supported by any hard evidence) that the most frustrated people by running away from combat are in a group of players who play classes with less mobility because they don't have such an "easy" escape route (which is a false assumption, with the current state of the game, everyone can run at full speed, be invisible or teleport), and they believe that only an "honorable" fight to the death is the only right way, and when someone simply outsmarts them, they get angry because they feel cheated.

You're correct a lot of people always bring up honor in this game as if there is an unwritten rule book or something that says we have to fight a certain way. Also you are correct there are many different tactics that frustrate players and it's very much an individual thing and situational as well.

Though I will ask you this and I almost wish we had a poll. Out of the things you listed and maybe some that weren't listed, which do you think are easier or easiest to pull of and therefore likely more common? And for the record I'm open to the idea that it can be something other than cloaking away and resetting the fight, that was just my initial guess.

I just think that things like tanking players, using los properly, and pretty much anything where you have to be visible the whole time are a bit more engaging on both sides. I mean either way let's say you're denying the kill so that just frustration that's built into the scenario. I wonder if to a player that isn't using reveals correctly if the cloak feels any better or worse than anything else in general of course?

Now I feel like I really wish I had that poll to know what players feel is most frustrating in these no kill scenarios. Though as I always say, lag and bad balance changes are the true final bosses of the pvp endgame.

Bushido2513

Mayrael wrote: »

I think this thread can be closed since the matter has already been explained, and further discussions about the mechanics of invisibility and its counters can be conducted elsewhere in more appropriate places.

Actually last question aside, I was thinking the same earlier. Not really the place for this discussion and there are more important ones that could use the space.

emilyhyoyeon

IMO nightblades (or any class really) roll dodging is more frustrating than invis cloaking.

Bushido2513

Kaysha wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

I think this thread can be closed since the matter has already been explained, and further discussions about the mechanics of invisibility and its counters can be conducted elsewhere in more appropriate places.

Actually last question aside, I was thinking the same earlier. Not really the place for this discussion and there are more important ones that could use the space.

Didn´t look like you were thinking the same. I´ve actaully never seen a thread being derailed by one person as you did with this one. Just saying...

Sorry I'll timestamp that for you. I was thinking the same right before I posted my last reply so it wouldn't have been relative to previous post.

And I'm pretty sure this thread's value to achieving change was maxed out on the first post.

Or do you think devs really read these things all the way through to determine what they should do next.

Keep in mind they never responded other than when they already planned to. No apology or grand gesture just here's a note now move along.

Galeriano

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

IMO nightblades (or any class really) roll dodging is more frustrating than invis cloaking.

Dodge into cloak is actually one of the most unbalanced defensive combinations in this game. Every class needs to deal with dodge penatly and at some point simply take the damage while waiting on penatly to wear off. Learning to deal with that penatly is important factor of learning how to play the game properly. Nightblade is free of that and on top of it even recived reduce cost of dodge in one of his abilities.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter because with all the defensive buffs this class got lately dodge into cloak is just tip of the iceberg. I am really suprised ZoS once again decided to deal with adventageous features of stealth playstyle by throwing rasndom counters that will not change much like this detect potion change instead of finally applying some pentalty into stealth playstyle itself. They are always trying to cure the symptons not the source of the issue.