So is there going to be an official ZOS comment on 100m Essence Of Detection potions change?

ApoAlaia

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

Tommy_The_Gun

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It is more or less the entire district or like 90% of it if someone with detection potion active will stand in the middle. 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth Wayshrine & Tarding guilds spot (in a straight line).

So even if someone will use those potion in IC and won't even leave the respawn save area - sneaking around the district will be impossible. As far as I am aware there are no potions that boost your sneak so it would counter detection potions.

CameraBeardThePirate

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

xDeusEJRx

I think detect pots should have higher range but 100m seems a little ridiculous considering that's a longer radius than even some of the longest ranged skills can reach. Like snipe is 35M I believe, this 100m seems needlessly excessive. If it were like 30-40m I wouldn't be that against it.

100m on the other hand seems needlessly excessive, especially considering we don't even know where this change is coming from since it's a stealth buff that zos still has not mentioned.

ApoAlaia

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

If is as inconsequential I think reverting the undocumented change is probably the wisest course of action.

Tommy_The_Gun

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

As far as I am aware it prevents anyone in the area to use crouch stealth & invisibility - and immediately reveals them. So in IC for example every mob will immediately agro on you as soon as you get near. So even if a player does not see you because of walls & line of sight - sooner or later later you will endup fighting mobs that you were supposed to sneak by & eventually you will end up fighting other players (not even the one that used potion).

If I understand it correctly, the only way to kinda mitigate that is to be a mag NB with enormous mag recovery as you need to spam cloak like crazy. Detection potions have from the lack of better term "ticks" of detection that reveal any hidden & invisible player & mob. So you will need to spam cloak faster than the Detection "ticks". It is possible, but only on a heavily sustain focused mag nb and even then you most likely have no resources to do anything else.

Also one important thing - next patch it will be actually possible to have 100% uptime on Detection potions as we have new potion cooldown set. You can run a potion that will provide you some sustain and Detection so I can see many players taking that route.

VaranisArano

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

Some of the districts are pretty open, like the Arboretum, or have significant open areas for combat like Memorial and the Arena.

Personally, I expect to get ganked while on the district flags, and again, those are in fairly open areas with not a lot of cover.

I advise players to bring detect pots/skills to IC, but it's not designed for 100m, you know?

CameraBeardThePirate

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

As far as I am aware it prevents anyone in the area to use crouch stealth & invisibility - and immediately reveals them. So in IC for example every mob will immediately agro on you as soon as you get near. So even if a player does not see you because of walls & line of sight - sooner or later later you will endup fighting mobs that you were supposed to sneak by & eventually you will end up fighting other players (not even the one that used potion).

If I understand it correctly, the only way to kinda mitigate that is to be a mag NB with enormous mag recovery as you need to spam cloak like crazy. Detection potions have from the lack of better term "ticks" of detection that reveal any hidden & invisible player & mob. So you will need to spam cloak faster than the Detection "ticks". It is possible, but only on a heavily sustain focused mag nb and even then you most likely have no resources to do anything else.

Also one important thing - next patch it will be actually possible to have 100% uptime on Detection potions as we have new potion cooldown set. You can run a potion that will provide you some sustain and Detection so I can see many players taking that route.

That's not how detect pots work - that's how reveals like magelight or camo hunter work. Detect pots were changed when the reveal skills were buffed to only give the user of the potion the benefit.

Reveals =/= Detection

Detect pots merely allow the user to see the person stealthed. It won't reveal them unless the detect pot user starts attacking them.

FantasticFreddie

Ok one thread stealth nerfed by no longer moving up the list.

Second thread closed because it was "off topic"
Zos, when are you going to address this head on?!

blktauna

A response would be appreciated:

a.) Yes we are doing this on purpose
b.) No this is a ludicrous test situation to wind you all up

Thecompton73

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

As far as I am aware it prevents anyone in the area to use crouch stealth & invisibility - and immediately reveals them. So in IC for example every mob will immediately agro on you as soon as you get near. So even if a player does not see you because of walls & line of sight - sooner or later later you will endup fighting mobs that you were supposed to sneak by & eventually you will end up fighting other players (not even the one that used potion).

If I understand it correctly, the only way to kinda mitigate that is to be a mag NB with enormous mag recovery as you need to spam cloak like crazy. Detection potions have from the lack of better term "ticks" of detection that reveal any hidden & invisible player & mob. So you will need to spam cloak faster than the Detection "ticks". It is possible, but only on a heavily sustain focused mag nb and even then you most likely have no resources to do anything else.

Also one important thing - next patch it will be actually possible to have 100% uptime on Detection potions as we have new potion cooldown set. You can run a potion that will provide you some sustain and Detection so I can see many players taking that route.

That's not how detect pots work - that's how reveals like magelight or camo hunter work. Detect pots were changed when the reveal skills were buffed to only give the user of the potion the benefit.

Reveals =/= Detection

Detect pots merely allow the user to see the person stealthed. It won't reveal them unless the detect pot user starts attacking them.

Someone recently tested how this works and posted a video of it. When someone pops a Detect Pot it reveals a NB using cloak to only the potion user. But a player in simple crouch stealth is revealed to EVERYONE by the potion.

CameraBeardThePirate

Thecompton73 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

As far as I am aware it prevents anyone in the area to use crouch stealth & invisibility - and immediately reveals them. So in IC for example every mob will immediately agro on you as soon as you get near. So even if a player does not see you because of walls & line of sight - sooner or later later you will endup fighting mobs that you were supposed to sneak by & eventually you will end up fighting other players (not even the one that used potion).

If I understand it correctly, the only way to kinda mitigate that is to be a mag NB with enormous mag recovery as you need to spam cloak like crazy. Detection potions have from the lack of better term "ticks" of detection that reveal any hidden & invisible player & mob. So you will need to spam cloak faster than the Detection "ticks". It is possible, but only on a heavily sustain focused mag nb and even then you most likely have no resources to do anything else.

Also one important thing - next patch it will be actually possible to have 100% uptime on Detection potions as we have new potion cooldown set. You can run a potion that will provide you some sustain and Detection so I can see many players taking that route.

That's not how detect pots work - that's how reveals like magelight or camo hunter work. Detect pots were changed when the reveal skills were buffed to only give the user of the potion the benefit.

Reveals =/= Detection

Detect pots merely allow the user to see the person stealthed. It won't reveal them unless the detect pot user starts attacking them.

Someone recently tested how this works and posted a video of it. When someone pops a Detect Pot it reveals a NB using cloak to only the potion user. But a player in simple crouch stealth is revealed to EVERYONE by the potion.

Ok, but then this is a bug that needs addressing, not an issue with the range of detect pots itself.

Kaysha

I think by now it is quite clear that this is an intended change, but that there is an ordered silence about the topic to safe sales figures of the next chapter from the backlash.
I mean...no PR manager would leave this outrage go on unhindered, if there wouldn´t be an order to not make written public announcements.

EramTheLiar

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Someone recently tested how this works and posted a video of it. When someone pops a Detect Pot it reveals a NB using cloak to only the potion user. But a player in simple crouch stealth is revealed to EVERYONE by the potion.

Ok, but then this is a bug that needs addressing, not an issue with the range of detect pots itself.

We don't know if it's a bug or not, because as far as I know ZOS hasn't commented on it. Just like they're not commenting on this weird radius increase.

I will note that Radiant Magelight and Evil Hunter have 12m radius, and if it weren't for the crit passive I don't really see why anyone would bother using them if you can just buy 100m potions. For the most part people use those skills because of the passives anyway, not for their active effects, which is kind of sad.

Edited because I'm terrible at pruning quotes.

Cast_El

I don't often play with nightblade in pvp, I prefer meele gameplay but I agree 100m is too far. 50m may be.
I feel this thread will be handled like jab nerf

Vulkunne

Let them eat static.

- Khan

ShadowProc

I do not understand why a change is needed where there is a large amount of counters in game.

If someone gets ganked because they do not have buffs up or if they don't recover and destroy the failed gank nb that is a learn to play issue.

Don't change core game design because of players that are lazy, need to play better, or fail to use existing counters.

goldenarcher1

My Khajiit bowblade retired to Khenarthi's roost to become a fisherman a few patches ago due to the tanky meta in PvP,and now it seems even stealth itself is on the hitlist with this detect-pot insanity.

Had lots of fun times in Cyrodiil over the years though.

Jammy420

I dont even have a stealth character and this makes me mad. Like oh hey lets make a game with vampires who can go invis and a stealth class, but lets negate them completely with a single button press from 1/10 of a kilometer away.

Balance.

Its absurd really.

Jammy420

DrNukenstein wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

I love how all the sweaty tryhards I see in Cyro who send salt to any Nightblade that kills them are all on this thread like "Yeah I love this change!" Of course you do. Makes you're cheese builds even easier to run around in a tower with.

100m is ridiculous. Full Stop.

It's also people that clearly have grievances from that one gank that got them, or have a very smart very meta brawl blade playstyle.

Meta builds are the polar opposite of that. I understand why ppl do it, but lets not sugar coat it.

On topic though, i get salty about being ganked too, but I would never advocate for something to obliterate a playstyle to the point of uselessness.

Bushido2513

Jammy420 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

I love how all the sweaty tryhards I see in Cyro who send salt to any Nightblade that kills them are all on this thread like "Yeah I love this change!" Of course you do. Makes you're cheese builds even easier to run around in a tower with.

100m is ridiculous. Full Stop.

It's also people that clearly have grievances from that one gank that got them, or have a very smart very meta brawl blade playstyle.

Meta builds are the polar opposite of that. I understand why ppl do it, but lets not sugar coat it.

On topic though, i get salty about being ganked too, but I would never advocate for something to obliterate a playstyle to the point of uselessness.

It's funny because people seem to keep bringing up anti gank anti stealth but for me I look at it like this.

Every play style has at one time or another taken a hit and mostly people just evolve to something else for a while.

I look at this as a great chance to experience the game without as much stealth. I'm not saying stay like that forever but I do want to at least see it for a patch cycle.

I do admit this will make it somewhat harder on those looking to avoid pvp but honestly there are multiple builds that allow you to similarly get around most attackers if you want that.

ShadowProc

There should not be a class, build, or item that counters everything. If a player doesn't want to use one of the 20 counters already in game to find nbs that's on them.

Don't make it even easier

Thecompton73

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I only use stealth to move around IC 'unmolested'.

A 200m circle covers like what, 1/4th of a district? 1/3rd?

This is insane.

I could understand if it was a global change, where they increased the effects of all potions and poisons fivefold to make things more spicy - that would definitely shake things around a bit - but as it stands I don't get it.

However the thing that irritates me the most is the complete silence regarding a rather substantial undocumented change.

It's not like the detect pot lets you see through walls though, and it's only up 15 seconds. Stay out of line of sight, and this doesn't really change anything.

As far as I am aware it prevents anyone in the area to use crouch stealth & invisibility - and immediately reveals them. So in IC for example every mob will immediately agro on you as soon as you get near. So even if a player does not see you because of walls & line of sight - sooner or later later you will endup fighting mobs that you were supposed to sneak by & eventually you will end up fighting other players (not even the one that used potion).

If I understand it correctly, the only way to kinda mitigate that is to be a mag NB with enormous mag recovery as you need to spam cloak like crazy. Detection potions have from the lack of better term "ticks" of detection that reveal any hidden & invisible player & mob. So you will need to spam cloak faster than the Detection "ticks". It is possible, but only on a heavily sustain focused mag nb and even then you most likely have no resources to do anything else.

Also one important thing - next patch it will be actually possible to have 100% uptime on Detection potions as we have new potion cooldown set. You can run a potion that will provide you some sustain and Detection so I can see many players taking that route.

That's not how detect pots work - that's how reveals like magelight or camo hunter work. Detect pots were changed when the reveal skills were buffed to only give the user of the potion the benefit.

Reveals =/= Detection

Detect pots merely allow the user to see the person stealthed. It won't reveal them unless the detect pot user starts attacking them.

Someone recently tested how this works and posted a video of it. When someone pops a Detect Pot it reveals a NB using cloak to only the potion user. But a player in simple crouch stealth is revealed to EVERYONE by the potion.

Ok, but then this is a bug that needs addressing, not an issue with the range of detect pots itself.

Could you be mistaken that it got changed when you say it did? I'm usually all over the patch notes whenever they drop and I can't recall that. Perhaps I missed it though. I'd appreciate if you could link us to the patch notes for it if possible.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

There should not be a class, build, or item that counters everything. If a player doesn't want to use one of the 20 clubters already in game to find nbs that's on them.

Don't make it even easier

This is misleading. In this case the item counters something and requires the player to give up something in exchange.

Technically this is really only a problem if cloak was the only way a NB could defend itself. Most of the stronger NBS don't actually need cloak to defend or attack.

Even still the effect is on a timer so any NB has time to get distance or choose to engage in that time.

Ganking and bombing can still be done though the targets and engagement will be more selective.

I've seen almost every class in this game either be top or bottom tier, NB can suck it up and evolve for a patch or two.

Hotdog_23

Is it 50 m from where you stand in every direction, thus a total of 100 m across or 100 m from where you stand and 200 m across? If it's 50 m or total of 100 m across. Then I think it's fair considering how fast you can move in stealth. 20 m is just too small. If you are using a detect pot, then you are not using another useful potion that the NB can use. Just my 2 cents.

Stay safe

Dojohoda

So if your cat tips over your glass of grape kool-aid, and 60 AD are rushing toward Ash from the south and 10 DK EP are rushing toward Ash from the east and you're near Ash lumber, must I quickly find a wide enough object to stealth behind ? I don't have a cat or drink grape kool-aid but something like this could happen. It would be sad to miss all that action because the keep is flagged and you're dead, out of camp range somewhere southeast of Ash behind a pebble, the kind of pebble your horse can't step over.

ApoAlaia

I mean ultimately if this intended and is a counter for stealth why not have a counter for other things that come up regularly too?

I hear a lot of noise in these forums about the 'tanky meta' (whatever that may be) so why not have a pot that disables all armour in a 100M radius for 15s for instance?

Kaysha

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I mean ultimately if this intended and is a counter for stealth why not have a counter for other things that come up regularly too?

I hear a lot of noise in these forums about the 'tanky meta' (whatever that may be) so why not have a pot that disables all armour in a 100M radius for 15s for instance?

That would probably also be a solution for hot stacking!

Marto

The base detection range is 6.5m
The piercing gaze CP star grants you +3m of detection range
On the live server, a detection potion grants you +20m of detection range.

Add all those together, and you get 29.5m of detection.

The attack range of a standard ranged attack is 28m, increased to 32m when near a keep.
The attack range of the longest range skill in the game, Snipe, is 35m. Increased to 40m when near a keep.

If I'm understanding this correctly, changing the detection potions to +50, +100, +1000, or whatever other higher number is only a buff for players utilizing Snipe, or fighting an enemy that's using Snipe. In every other situation, there shouldn't be much of a difference.

It doesn't seem like a huge change to me.

I think ZOS should change the wording to be a bit less dramatic. Something like "Allows you to see invisible players for 16 seconds"

Tommy_The_Gun

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Is it 50 m from where you stand in every direction, thus a total of 100 m across or 100 m from where you stand and 200 m across? If it's 50 m or total of 100 m across. Then I think it's fair considering how fast you can move in stealth. 20 m is just too small. If you are using a detect pot, then you are not using another useful potion that the NB can use. Just my 2 cents.

Stay safe

It is 100 meters in every direction around you, so you are inside a circle of detection with a maximum of 200 meters of range. Every one who is invisible / stealthed inside that circle is revealed (unless they spam cloak - then they are only revealed to you). No idea if invisibility potions counter detect potion though, or invisibility potion gets cancelled too).

For reference, 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth Wayshrine & Trading Guilds spot in a straight line. So one potion can cover almost the entire city of Belkarth or IC district or PvE questing city hub in Cyro.

Note:
I have tested it on live using a couple of ranged skills as reference point. Killed a mob with it then ran towards the corpse counting seconds. So if a skill like Snipe has a known range - then I know that X seconds of running means I covered distance of Y meters etc.