Maintenance for the week of December 2:
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 2, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 4, 6:00AM EST (11:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 4, 6:00AM EST (11:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 2, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 4, 6:00AM EST (11:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 4, 6:00AM EST (11:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
So is there going to be an official ZOS comment on 100m Essence Of Detection potions change?
-
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
Player expresses discontent then expects immediate feedback, remediation, explanation, etc. I've seen ZOS responds a few times and just catch heat because players can't help themselves from venting all this pent up previous frustration at wanting ZOS to be something it clearly isn't .
If I were ZOS I wouldn't really respond right away either because it almost feeds into this idea in players minds that they somehow play a much bigger part in things than they actually do. This isn't that kind of game/development cycle.
This is a stealth change, not one of the usual ham fisted sweeping 180 switch of a current skill that is the usual thing. This has been going on for weeks. We wouldn't have 3+ threads, sketch thread issues and pages of annoyance if they just had said yo we are testing this.
Then we would have the usual justified outrage but an answer is basic courtesy to your customers.6 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Next up - anti streak potions? Potions that cover the moon so werewolves can’t transform?
ESO PVP: “Play how you want!*”
*disclaimer: only applies if you’re a tanky DK. All other classes and playstyles in pvp are unacceptable and will be nerfed if you manage to kill any DK.
Those exist, it's called immovability potions.
Fun fact: they also work against fossilize, arctic blast, fear, dark convergence, medium weave, the list goes on.
As for countering the teleport: there's always running (costs significantly less), chains (DK), silver leash (fighters guild) and many other ways to catch a fleeing sorc.
These counters all do just as much to counter streak as detect pots do to nbs, its just that sorcs continue to use streak because that's how the class plays.1 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They haven't touched potions for a long long time; it has been more than a year since they started with the 'hybridization' process and they haven't even touched weapon and spell damage pots yet.
On the other hand they make a substantial, completely undocumented change to detection pots and they don't even grace us with a succinct 'we do what we must because we can' after weeks of making (IMO perfectly reasonable) requests for comment.
Is getting increasingly difficult to dismiss the notion that the dev team is dragging this on out of a sense of amusement and self-gratification.
Edited by ApoAlaia on May 14, 2023 5:14AM5 -
RevJJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Next up - anti streak potions? Potions that cover the moon so werewolves can’t transform?
ESO PVP: “Play how you want!*”
*disclaimer: only applies if you’re a tanky DK. All other classes and playstyles in pvp are unacceptable and will be nerfed if you manage to kill any DK.
Those exist, it's called immovability potions.
Fun fact: they also work against fossilize, arctic blast, fear, dark convergence, medium weave, the list goes on.
As for countering the teleport: there's always running (costs significantly less), chains (DK), silver leash (fighters guild) and many other ways to catch a fleeing sorc.
These counters all do just as much to counter streak as detect pots do to nbs, its just that sorcs continue to use streak because that's how the class plays.
Do immovability potions work from 100m away?3 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Next up - anti streak potions? Potions that cover the moon so werewolves can’t transform?
ESO PVP: “Play how you want!*”
*disclaimer: only applies if you’re a tanky DK. All other classes and playstyles in pvp are unacceptable and will be nerfed if you manage to kill any DK.
Those exist, it's called immovability potions.
Fun fact: they also work against fossilize, arctic blast, fear, dark convergence, medium weave, the list goes on.
As for countering the teleport: there's always running (costs significantly less), chains (DK), silver leash (fighters guild) and many other ways to catch a fleeing sorc.
These counters all do just as much to counter streak as detect pots do to nbs, its just that sorcs continue to use streak because that's how the class plays.
Do immovability potions work from 100m away?
I know you're just trying to be facetious, but, yes they do actually work from 100m away. They work from infinite range because no matter how far away the sorcerer is from you, that sorc still needs to streak over the top of you to stun you and the immovability is applied to you so it doesn't matter how far away the sorc is or the caster of the stun that is cast on you is, it will not affect you.7 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also, if you must know, I would rather see a more reasonable range of 30-40m on detect pots and 10m on the active skills like inner light/camo hunter, but that is up to zos to do that.
I am just showing that there are indeed options (and very good ones too that have uses against many things, not just 1 spec only) to counter these other classes abilities that "need counters" that NBs are constantly bringing up in this discussion.2 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I kinda think that it has similar (or greater) range than Forward Camp in PvP. You know - the circle on the map - so that if you are within it you can re-spawnTommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is 100 meters in every direction around you, so you are inside a circle of detection with a maximum of 200 meters of range. Every one who is invisible / stealthed inside that circle is revealed (unless they spam cloak - then they are only revealed to you). No idea if invisibility potions counter detect potion though, or invisibility potion gets cancelled too).Is it 50 m from where you stand in every direction, thus a total of 100 m across or 100 m from where you stand and 200 m across? If it's 50 m or total of 100 m across. Then I think it's fair considering how fast you can move in stealth. 20 m is just too small. If you are using a detect pot, then you are not using another useful potion that the NB can use. Just my 2 cents.
Stay safe
For reference, 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth Wayshrine & Trading Guilds spot in a straight line. So one potion can cover almost the entire city of Belkarth or IC district or PvE questing city hub in Cyro.
Note:
I have tested it on live using a couple of ranged skills as reference point. Killed a mob with it then ran towards the corpse counting seconds. So if a skill like Snipe has a known range - then I know that X seconds of running means I covered distance of Y meters etc.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is 100 meters in every direction around you, so you are inside a circle of detection with a maximum of 200 meters of range. Every one who is invisible / stealthed inside that circle is revealed (unless they spam cloak - then they are only revealed to you). No idea if invisibility potions counter detect potion though, or invisibility potion gets cancelled too).Is it 50 m from where you stand in every direction, thus a total of 100 m across or 100 m from where you stand and 200 m across? If it's 50 m or total of 100 m across. Then I think it's fair considering how fast you can move in stealth. 20 m is just too small. If you are using a detect pot, then you are not using another useful potion that the NB can use. Just my 2 cents.
Stay safe
For reference, 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth Wayshrine & Trading Guilds spot in a straight line. So one potion can cover almost the entire city of Belkarth or IC district or PvE questing city hub in Cyro.
Note:
I have tested it on live using a couple of ranged skills as reference point. Killed a mob with it then ran towards the corpse counting seconds. So if a skill like Snipe has a known range - then I know that X seconds of running means I covered distance of Y meters etc.
Nearly a quarter kilometer detect range. Thats absurd and hilarious at the same time xD
1 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
Player expresses discontent then expects immediate feedback, remediation, explanation, etc. I've seen ZOS responds a few times and just catch heat because players can't help themselves from venting all this pent up previous frustration at wanting ZOS to be something it clearly isn't .
If I were ZOS I wouldn't really respond right away either because it almost feeds into this idea in players minds that they somehow play a much bigger part in things than they actually do. This isn't that kind of game/development cycle.
This is a stealth change, not one of the usual ham fisted sweeping 180 switch of a current skill that is the usual thing. This has been going on for weeks. We wouldn't have 3+ threads, sketch thread issues and pages of annoyance if they just had said yo we are testing this.
Then we would have the usual justified outrage but an answer is basic courtesy to your customers.
Exactly this. It is a stealth change that obliterates stealth builds, or even vamp escapes! If there was ANY communication what so ever, people would have at least been understasnding because there is communication. But as usual, no communication in the PTS, and nothing we talked about is really changed. For the umptienth time.5 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I kinda think that it has similar (or greater) range than Forward Camp in PvP. You know - the circle on the map - so that if you are within it you can re-spawnTommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is 100 meters in every direction around you, so you are inside a circle of detection with a maximum of 200 meters of range. Every one who is invisible / stealthed inside that circle is revealed (unless they spam cloak - then they are only revealed to you). No idea if invisibility potions counter detect potion though, or invisibility potion gets cancelled too).Is it 50 m from where you stand in every direction, thus a total of 100 m across or 100 m from where you stand and 200 m across? If it's 50 m or total of 100 m across. Then I think it's fair considering how fast you can move in stealth. 20 m is just too small. If you are using a detect pot, then you are not using another useful potion that the NB can use. Just my 2 cents.
Stay safe
For reference, 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth Wayshrine & Trading Guilds spot in a straight line. So one potion can cover almost the entire city of Belkarth or IC district or PvE questing city hub in Cyro.
Note:
I have tested it on live using a couple of ranged skills as reference point. Killed a mob with it then ran towards the corpse counting seconds. So if a skill like Snipe has a known range - then I know that X seconds of running means I covered distance of Y meters etc.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is 100 meters in every direction around you, so you are inside a circle of detection with a maximum of 200 meters of range. Every one who is invisible / stealthed inside that circle is revealed (unless they spam cloak - then they are only revealed to you). No idea if invisibility potions counter detect potion though, or invisibility potion gets cancelled too).Is it 50 m from where you stand in every direction, thus a total of 100 m across or 100 m from where you stand and 200 m across? If it's 50 m or total of 100 m across. Then I think it's fair considering how fast you can move in stealth. 20 m is just too small. If you are using a detect pot, then you are not using another useful potion that the NB can use. Just my 2 cents.
Stay safe
For reference, 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth Wayshrine & Trading Guilds spot in a straight line. So one potion can cover almost the entire city of Belkarth or IC district or PvE questing city hub in Cyro.
Note:
I have tested it on live using a couple of ranged skills as reference point. Killed a mob with it then ran towards the corpse counting seconds. So if a skill like Snipe has a known range - then I know that X seconds of running means I covered distance of Y meters etc.
Nearly a quarter kilometer detect range. Thats absurd and hilarious at the same time xD
So clearly the solution is just having a forward camp on my head as a nighblade to know the range.
Zos, get on this! xD1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Then we would have the usual justified outrage but an answer is basic courtesy to your customers.
I mean, I can point out other examples where they've done similar in the past several times. I'm trying to point out that it's interesting that people know their pattern for things like this but somehow expected them to behave differently here with pretty much no incentive or really even much to lose if they don't.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Is getting increasingly difficult to dismiss the notion that the dev team is dragging this on out of a sense of amusement and self-gratification.
When it comes to what's been going on for a long time now I do wish people would stop dismissing so many apparently clear things. Would save a lot of time if people just read the situation a bit more.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Next up - anti streak potions? Potions that cover the moon so werewolves can’t transform?
ESO PVP: “Play how you want!*”
*disclaimer: only applies if you’re a tanky DK. All other classes and playstyles in pvp are unacceptable and will be nerfed if you manage to kill any DK.
Those exist, it's called immovability potions.
Fun fact: they also work against fossilize, arctic blast, fear, dark convergence, medium weave, the list goes on.
As for countering the teleport: there's always running (costs significantly less), chains (DK), silver leash (fighters guild) and many other ways to catch a fleeing sorc.
These counters all do just as much to counter streak as detect pots do to nbs, its just that sorcs continue to use streak because that's how the class plays.
Do immovability potions work from 100m away?
I know you're just trying to be facetious, but, yes they do actually work from 100m away. They work from infinite range because no matter how far away the sorcerer is from you, that sorc still needs to streak over the top of you to stun you and the immovability is applied to you so it doesn't matter how far away the sorc is or the caster of the stun that is cast on you is, it will not affect you.
Not to mention and again I'm just adding to be fun but technical. They also work against all enemies to the user so 1 or 1000 same as the detect pot. Again, just for technical clarity.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
You can stop now. You are obviously either the ZOS dev who made this change or some other ZOS employee. There is no other reason for you to spout this nonsense. Have you noticed not one person agrees with your stance?
Never really cared much if random people on the internet agree or disagree with me. They have their opinion and I have mine.
You act as if those who have brought this up haven't actually gone on PTS and TESTED this potion.
PTS isn't live so while you are seeing a picture it's not the full one and people claiming so aren't really being accurate to the argument they're making.
Are you seriously that self-deluded?
I'm not denying any of the facts here. There is a potion with this affect on PTS. The other fact is that nobody knows what this will look like on live
Now my belief is that this ultimately won't be more damaging to the game than any of the other weird changes that have gone on recently. Again this is not a fact just something I believe and I accept that I could be wrong but I also want to see it in action before I make a final assessment. I understand others believe differently and I encourage everyone to have a voice.
So I don't see a case for delusion here but that's my personal assessment.
You tell me over & over that I don't know. In fact, I DO know. Why else would I bring it up?
You got content creators and hardcore PvPers testing this on PTS an no one is happy with it.
So please go back and tell your bosses at ZOS that you did your job, tried to justify a change that is completely unwarranted and looks like nothing but salty devs who can't PvP making willy nilly changes to make themselves feel like better players than they are.
So you're telling me you went to the future after this change was made, played the game, saw how every player reacted, every new playstyle that came from this change, played the change in multiple scenario, collected all that data and are now back to this time period to break it down for us?
So ok jokes aside, I'm really speaking of a logical approach to testing. I realize PTS players are objecting to what they see but it's also well known that anyone on PTS will admit they usually don't have enough data to compare on how something will look on live once all the players actually have access to it and can give feedback or formulate ideas around it.
So here's why I look at this change differently than say dark deal healing for 50k tooltip.
This change in cloak isn't a simple math problem because to me I've already been thinking of how I would play around it if I was trying to bomb someone or get around the map without engaging in pvp and I've already had a few ideas. Now granted those ideas may all go up in smoke but I won't know that till live comes. Now I'm not the best theorycrafter or most skilled player so my gamble here is that if I have ideas I bet a better player than me will have even better ideas. So that's where my choice to look at this with an open perspective comes from.
So ok if dark deal had a 50k tooltip it's very easy to see that no matter what that just goes very very badly even from a pure mathematical perspective because it clearly exceeds the common damage output numbers of pvp encounters short of being zerged down. Even if stack the deck of the encounter the math just wouldn't support this not being a busted change.
So that's why I'm keeping an open mind on the change but can admit that I might be totally wrong here. I'm just not able or willing to make a stance on something that seems to clearly require live for full understanding. I'm just more open to the change then others I think.
3 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Exactly this. It is a stealth change that obliterates stealth builds, or even vamp escapes! If there was ANY communication what so ever, people would have at least been understasnding because there is communication. But as usual, no communication in the PTS, and nothing we talked about is really changed. For the umptienth time.
I'm pretty sure people would have not been understanding. I think they would have moved past feeling more disrespected than usual and just went right to the whole pitchforks thing.
What's interesting and important to note here is that you're pointing out that this is a usual behavior pattern for them. So I get some level of outrage at this but at the same time I'm like why since you know this is just what they do at this point. Let's just assume it will go live as it usually does and just move to pitchfork mode and call it a day.
0 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Silence equals complicity. I feel it necessary to point out poor behaviour in order not to normalise it.
This is not how you treat customers, so it needs for us to remind people of that.
This whole promise of transparency and improved communication is not being held up here.8 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Silence equals complicity. I feel it necessary to point out poor behaviour in order not to normalise it.
This is not how you treat customers, so it needs for us to remind people of that.
This whole promise of transparency and improved communication is not being held up here.
So people work off of incentives usually. What is ZOS incentive to do anything here? You could say things like to be a good company, to keep their promises, because it's the right thing to do? Does much about ZOS behavior in recent years suggest that they are really in it for the above reasons?
I agree that there's a good point in not being silent about these things but being vocal yet not using an impactful message is possibly nearly as bad as the silence.
If you see someone treat customers a certain way then you should remind them and say hey don't treat customers that way. If you see them keep treating customers that way and only a few of the customers care then you kind of have to look at yourself and wonder am I in the right place or do I just like admonishing entities that seem to mostly do what they want anyway?
Personally I unsubscribed a long time ago and just enjoy the game on my terms. I invested a lot of time and money over the years in this game and it gave me a lot of entertainment and still does at times but things change and we either get upset, change with them, or change away from them.0 -
AuraNebula✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
You can stop now. You are obviously either the ZOS dev who made this change or some other ZOS employee. There is no other reason for you to spout this nonsense. Have you noticed not one person agrees with your stance?
Never really cared much if random people on the internet agree or disagree with me. They have their opinion and I have mine.
You act as if those who have brought this up haven't actually gone on PTS and TESTED this potion.
PTS isn't live so while you are seeing a picture it's not the full one and people claiming so aren't really being accurate to the argument they're making.
Are you seriously that self-deluded?
I'm not denying any of the facts here. There is a potion with this affect on PTS. The other fact is that nobody knows what this will look like on live
Now my belief is that this ultimately won't be more damaging to the game than any of the other weird changes that have gone on recently. Again this is not a fact just something I believe and I accept that I could be wrong but I also want to see it in action before I make a final assessment. I understand others believe differently and I encourage everyone to have a voice.
So I don't see a case for delusion here but that's my personal assessment.
You tell me over & over that I don't know. In fact, I DO know. Why else would I bring it up?
You got content creators and hardcore PvPers testing this on PTS an no one is happy with it.
So please go back and tell your bosses at ZOS that you did your job, tried to justify a change that is completely unwarranted and looks like nothing but salty devs who can't PvP making willy nilly changes to make themselves feel like better players than they are.
So you're telling me you went to the future after this change was made, played the game, saw how every player reacted, every new playstyle that came from this change, played the change in multiple scenario, collected all that data and are now back to this time period to break it down for us?
So ok jokes aside, I'm really speaking of a logical approach to testing. I realize PTS players are objecting to what they see but it's also well known that anyone on PTS will admit they usually don't have enough data to compare on how something will look on live once all the players actually have access to it and can give feedback or formulate ideas around it.
So here's why I look at this change differently than say dark deal healing for 50k tooltip.
This change in cloak isn't a simple math problem because to me I've already been thinking of how I would play around it if I was trying to bomb someone or get around the map without engaging in pvp and I've already had a few ideas. Now granted those ideas may all go up in smoke but I won't know that till live comes. Now I'm not the best theorycrafter or most skilled player so my gamble here is that if I have ideas I bet a better player than me will have even better ideas. So that's where my choice to look at this with an open perspective comes from.
So ok if dark deal had a 50k tooltip it's very easy to see that no matter what that just goes very very badly even from a pure mathematical perspective because it clearly exceeds the common damage output numbers of pvp encounters short of being zerged down. Even if stack the deck of the encounter the math just wouldn't support this not being a busted change.
So that's why I'm keeping an open mind on the change but can admit that I might be totally wrong here. I'm just not able or willing to make a stance on something that seems to clearly require live for full understanding. I'm just more open to the change then others I think.
None of this makes any sense.2 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭AuraNebula wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »If you don't care about this change that much, why are you replying to every single person on this thread who doesn't want this change? Clearly you have a bias and are trying to silence anyone who disagrees with you.
I don't want to silence anyone. Everyone here should have their say I think.
As to why I reply, I don't care much particularly if this change goes through or not but I do care about the spirit of the idea and the arguments people are making up to justify their opinions as facts.
I also care that people seem to want to use a lot of resources on addressing symptoms and not the roots of the actual issues.
If this game is to ever really advance in some part due to the actions of the players then we would actually have to make uniform statements with real consequences to them.
Ten players jumping on here and demanding things from ZOS isn't really going to cut it in terms of real change.
I also reply because this idea while not elegant does represent change in the game and I don't exactly care to see people just shoot it down because of personal bias.
We will only know what this change is if this change goes live and on paper while it may look bad I still don't believe it's accurate to what live might look like which might be much better.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭AuraNebula wrote: »[
None of this makes any sense.
Well I'm happy to try to help you understand however I'd need more detail on your thought process as to where you're confused, perhaps point by point if you can.0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
You can stop now. You are obviously either the ZOS dev who made this change or some other ZOS employee. There is no other reason for you to spout this nonsense. Have you noticed not one person agrees with your stance?
Never really cared much if random people on the internet agree or disagree with me. They have their opinion and I have mine.
You act as if those who have brought this up haven't actually gone on PTS and TESTED this potion.
PTS isn't live so while you are seeing a picture it's not the full one and people claiming so aren't really being accurate to the argument they're making.
Are you seriously that self-deluded?
I'm not denying any of the facts here. There is a potion with this affect on PTS. The other fact is that nobody knows what this will look like on live
Now my belief is that this ultimately won't be more damaging to the game than any of the other weird changes that have gone on recently. Again this is not a fact just something I believe and I accept that I could be wrong but I also want to see it in action before I make a final assessment. I understand others believe differently and I encourage everyone to have a voice.
So I don't see a case for delusion here but that's my personal assessment.
You tell me over & over that I don't know. In fact, I DO know. Why else would I bring it up?
You got content creators and hardcore PvPers testing this on PTS an no one is happy with it.
So please go back and tell your bosses at ZOS that you did your job, tried to justify a change that is completely unwarranted and looks like nothing but salty devs who can't PvP making willy nilly changes to make themselves feel like better players than they are.
So you're telling me you went to the future after this change was made, played the game, saw how every player reacted, every new playstyle that came from this change, played the change in multiple scenario, collected all that data and are now back to this time period to break it down for us?
So ok jokes aside, I'm really speaking of a logical approach to testing. I realize PTS players are objecting to what they see but it's also well known that anyone on PTS will admit they usually don't have enough data to compare on how something will look on live once all the players actually have access to it and can give feedback or formulate ideas around it.
So here's why I look at this change differently than say dark deal healing for 50k tooltip.
This change in cloak isn't a simple math problem because to me I've already been thinking of how I would play around it if I was trying to bomb someone or get around the map without engaging in pvp and I've already had a few ideas. Now granted those ideas may all go up in smoke but I won't know that till live comes. Now I'm not the best theorycrafter or most skilled player so my gamble here is that if I have ideas I bet a better player than me will have even better ideas. So that's where my choice to look at this with an open perspective comes from.
So ok if dark deal had a 50k tooltip it's very easy to see that no matter what that just goes very very badly even from a pure mathematical perspective because it clearly exceeds the common damage output numbers of pvp encounters short of being zerged down. Even if stack the deck of the encounter the math just wouldn't support this not being a busted change.
So that's why I'm keeping an open mind on the change but can admit that I might be totally wrong here. I'm just not able or willing to make a stance on something that seems to clearly require live for full understanding. I'm just more open to the change then others I think.
I don't need to touch fire to know it burns. Maybe it won't be doom and gloom scenario but this is probably the most important combat change in this update (since it changes one of core PvP mechanics behavior) and it deserves a lot more dev attention than it has now. Will it make PvP better? Hard to say, everyone see just the part where gankers will have harder time to kill them, but nobody thinks how often they use stealth on their own. Will it make PvP more boring? For sure. Will NBs leave the game? Some will. You look on it from sorc player point of view, stealth is not one of your combat mechanics.
What if roots would prevent people from roll dodge and teleport, because you know you actually shouldn't be moving? We have skills that are dedicated to counter soft ccs, maybe we should make roots and snares more impactful and encourage people to use those counters?
Maybe we should change impenetrable to lower crit chance on target not crit damage?
How do you like my open minded opinion on PvP changes?Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge3 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭I don't need to touch fire to know it burns. Maybe it won't be doom and gloom scenario but this is probably the most important combat change in this update (since it changes one of core PvP mechanics behavior) and it deserves a lot more dev attention than it has now. Will it make PvP better? Hard to say, everyone see just the part where gankers will have harder time to kill them, but nobody thinks how often they use stealth on their own. Will it make PvP more boring? For sure. Will NBs leave the game? Some will. You look on it from sorc player point of view, stealth is not one of your combat mechanics.
What if roots would prevent people from roll dodge and teleport, because you know you actually shouldn't be moving? We have skills that are dedicated to counter soft ccs, maybe we should make roots and snares more impactful and encourage people to use those counters?
Maybe we should change impenetrable to lower crit chance on target not crit damage?
How do you like my open minded opinion on PvP changes?
Okay so I've already said in another post, I DO BOMB. Bombing is a great way for me to even the odds in IC when my faction isn't really showing up. I've been unstealthed and busted and had to go back and build ult etc so many times. My point is that I would also have to take the same hit or adapt and try something different, etc .
I'm soooooo glad you brought up your changes because here's my thought on that.
If this change goes through we will actually get a chance for everyone to chime in from live and that is something I really want to see.
Guess what, if nobody likes it we can actually go back to ZOS and say hey here's the data this change sucks don't ever do that again. Currently what people can say is that we don't like it in the pts vacuum which isn't really saying much in relation to the whole population.
So regarding your changes I honestly would try them all out on live (one patch cycle at a time) if I could because I'm not really bothered by running tests and gathering data. I'd rather know the actual real world effect of things rather than have guesses.
I mean in my opinion the game can't really go too much farther into the gutter in some respects so might as well learn something and see something interesting even if it sounds like it's a 50/50 shot.
Your changes can't be any worse for me than the DK centric lagfest that is PS4NA cyro at the moment. There's truly so many things that aren't right in pvp right now that need to be addressed. For me this change at least answers a question that a lot of people have asked over the years or kind of wondered which is to say what if cloak was a bit more nullified.
2 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is 100 meters in every direction around you, so you are inside a circle of detection with a maximum of 200 meters of range. Every one who is invisible / stealthed inside that circle is revealed (unless they spam cloak - then they are only revealed to you). No idea if invisibility potions counter detect potion though, or invisibility potion gets cancelled too).Is it 50 m from where you stand in every direction, thus a total of 100 m across or 100 m from where you stand and 200 m across? If it's 50 m or total of 100 m across. Then I think it's fair considering how fast you can move in stealth. 20 m is just too small. If you are using a detect pot, then you are not using another useful potion that the NB can use. Just my 2 cents.
Stay safe
For reference, 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth Wayshrine & Trading Guilds spot in a straight line. So one potion can cover almost the entire city of Belkarth or IC district or PvE questing city hub in Cyro.
Note:
I have tested it on live using a couple of ranged skills as reference point. Killed a mob with it then ran towards the corpse counting seconds. So if a skill like Snipe has a known range - then I know that X seconds of running means I covered distance of Y meters etc.
Wow, thanks for the answer. If it stays like you said, then it will sure be a game changer.
Stay safe 0 -
Techwolf_Lupindo✭✭✭I think this is the result of customer feedback of leaving players when contacted by ZOS as to why they canceled ESO+ and left the game. I know many regular PvP players that have left the game due to issues. I am pretty sure the biggest issue with beginning players is they get ganked all the time even when running in beginners groups. Now, getting back at the gankers is the biggest issue, there are decated troll groups that drive away players due to one can't hunt and kill the gankers no matter what.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »I don't need to touch fire to know it burns. Maybe it won't be doom and gloom scenario but this is probably the most important combat change in this update (since it changes one of core PvP mechanics behavior) and it deserves a lot more dev attention than it has now. Will it make PvP better? Hard to say, everyone see just the part where gankers will have harder time to kill them, but nobody thinks how often they use stealth on their own. Will it make PvP more boring? For sure. Will NBs leave the game? Some will. You look on it from sorc player point of view, stealth is not one of your combat mechanics.
What if roots would prevent people from roll dodge and teleport, because you know you actually shouldn't be moving? We have skills that are dedicated to counter soft ccs, maybe we should make roots and snares more impactful and encourage people to use those counters?
Maybe we should change impenetrable to lower crit chance on target not crit damage?
How do you like my open minded opinion on PvP changes?
Okay so I've already said in another post, I DO BOMB. Bombing is a great way for me to even the odds in IC when my faction isn't really showing up. I've been unstealthed and busted and had to go back and build ult etc so many times. My point is that I would also have to take the same hit or adapt and try something different, etc .
I'm soooooo glad you brought up your changes because here's my thought on that.
If this change goes through we will actually get a chance for everyone to chime in from live and that is something I really want to see.
Guess what, if nobody likes it we can actually go back to ZOS and say hey here's the data this change sucks don't ever do that again. Currently what people can say is that we don't like it in the pts vacuum which isn't really saying much in relation to the whole population.
So regarding your changes I honestly would try them all out on live (one patch cycle at a time) if I could because I'm not really bothered by running tests and gathering data. I'd rather know the actual real world effect of things rather than have guesses.
I mean in my opinion the game can't really go too much farther into the gutter in some respects so might as well learn something and see something interesting even if it sounds like it's a 50/50 shot.
Your changes can't be any worse for me than the DK centric lagfest that is PS4NA cyro at the moment. There's truly so many things that aren't right in pvp right now that need to be addressed. For me this change at least answers a question that a lot of people have asked over the years or kind of wondered which is to say what if cloak was a bit more nullified.
An occasional play on some character is not the same thing. I also play on my sorc and templar, but still, I love my NB the most because it allows me to play completely solo. I don't have the opportunity to play with guild friends because my job simply doesn't allow it, and NB was the only character that allowed me to jump into Cyrodiil or IC for a moment without the fear of small scalers or zergs hard trying to kill me everywhere I go.
And so, everyone who doesn't play NB asks to nerf cloak, just like everyone who doesn't play sorc asks to nerf streak and those who don't play DK want to nerf DK as a whole. It doesn't surprise me that most people will like this change because most people don't play NB as their MAIN (MAIN, not just occasionally jumping in to do quests). But just because most people want something doesn't always mean it should be that way - is it better to listen to an angry mob thirsty for blood or to one calm, rational person?
I think you don't realize the gravity of this change for NB. It might as well be possible to remove cloak from the bar because among enemies, there will always be at least one who will use this potion. And this, in turn, leads to the complete annihilation of what NB is. Soon, cloak will be changed into some generic skill that will completely lose its uniqueness, making NB just a colorfully different version of sorc, and if you think this is good, then you simply don't care about this game.
Just like I didn't want DK wings to lose reflect (I was in favor of a different solution that would allow for counter-play while keeping reflect without limit), just like I was against cast time on shields, just like I am against nerfs to streak/BoL, I will always be against any changes that take away the uniqueness of classes, and when someone supports changes like this, it's obvious to me that despite their beautiful and flowery statements, they don't have the good of the game in mind, but rather their own satisfaction.Edited by Mayrael on May 15, 2023 6:15AMSay no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge3 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
An occasional play on some character is not the same thing.
Well I was just trying to illustrate that I too will feel the impact of the change and while you say occasionally I will say this. Of my 18 fully leveled skills unlocked characters I really only have a around 4 sorcs and one nightblade ready to go, golded out gear, etc if that tell you just how important that bit of utility is for me.
This potion change could very well mean that I will have no way to deal with bully groups who will kill and squat me / bully other players. That won't be an easy thing to eat and I'm not saying I won't change my vote if this goes live an turns out to be basically bad for everyone.
I love my NB the most because it allows me to play completely solo. I don't have the opportunity to play with guild friends because my job simply doesn't allow it, and NB was the only character that allowed me to jump into Cyrodiil or IC for a moment without the fear of small scalers or zergs hard trying to kill me everywhere I go.
I prefer solo and only get to run with guildies or friends here and there so I understand the levels people will go to when trying to kill you.
I'll say this after thinking about what you're saying for a moment. For you and players like you that want to use cloak as a way to get around pvp zones unmolested I can definitely see the issue.
That being said, some of us still want to know what this change will look like on live. I don't know if this will improve overall quality of life for more than it hurts but there's only -one way to find out I'm afraid.
I think you don't realize the gravity of this change for NB. It might as well be possible to remove cloak from the bar because among enemies, there will always be at least one who will use this potion. And this, in turn, leads to the complete annihilation of what NB is.
As I indicated above in a few ways, I do realize the gravity of the change in a few ways but I'm also seeing that you want to play nightblade in a particular way and to also say that this is the annihilation of what nightblade is would be a bit of a reach.
Yes it's possibly close to an annihilation of nightblade if you're mostly trying to run around pvp zones undiscovered. I'm not yet ready to agree with this killing off bombers and even gankers yet because this has yet to be fully tested on live.
I do know though that I've fought very strong brawler blades that could kill me and others without much issue at times and that could heal through my damage. If brawler spec is the only one people end up being able to play then I would agree there is a problem and the change would need to be reverted but I just can't say without actually seeing it in live because I think the player base might try something new after the change.
when someone supports changes like this, it's obvious to me that despite their beautiful and flowery statements, they don't have the good of the game in mind, but rather their own satisfaction.
Depends on what you think is good. For me it would be good for the game if we fully understood what a change like this means to the player base.
Honestly it boils down to this. If this change is so bad then the players will heavily complain in mass after it goes live and then it will be reverted. ZOS does make very questionable choices but I don't think they will do anything that truly hurts revenue at least not for too too long. Though I admit even on that they've challenged my beliefs.
But here's my question, do you think enough players on live will back the idea of this being a bad change or do you think most will either not care or like it?
Because the truth is that if this is what the majority wants then that's likely better for the game as it will keep that majority happy and coming back and maybe even bring in new players. It's not the best development answer but might serve to keep the game going a bit longer.
So if people decide they want this more than not are you ok giving it up for the overall betterment of the game that you say you care about? Or do you more so care about the game when it fits the direction that works for you?
I'm just trying to be clear about which ways we care about the game. For me personally they could have made the potion say streak doesn't work within 100 meters for 15 seconds and I really wouldn't care because while I do love streak, I just play sorc because I just like playing a sorc. I'd just modify my build so that I could still play sorc with some level of success.
Now several other player would revolt and the change would just get reverted and I'd just put my build back to where it was and ZOS would know nobody likes this potion effect enough to keep it.
I think I care about the game but I accept ZOS for what they are so I only care about it to the level they seem to care.
0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »I think this is the result of customer feedback of leaving players when contacted by ZOS as to why they canceled ESO+ and left the game. I know many regular PvP players that have left the game due to issues. I am pretty sure the biggest issue with beginning players is they get ganked all the time even when running in beginners groups. Now, getting back at the gankers is the biggest issue, there are decated troll groups that drive away players due to one can't hunt and kill the gankers no matter what.
Eh I think it's more than that. I've ganked new players, bombed new players, x'd new players. Generally I've killed new players in multiple ways and I think they just don't like dying before they know what hit them and sometimes it's just a basic rotation from a more experienced player.
Honestly bombing to me is probably the bigger issue for players because here you are having the battle of your life hanging out with your friends or whatever and out of nowhere this thing just happens and now we all have to respawn and start over.
It's like if you were watching Bruce Lee finally fight Mohamed Ali but before they can get more than a few blows in a nuke just hits them both. Side note, obviously Ali wins but you get the point, we actually wanted to experience the fight and while I've done my fair share of bombing and ganking I will admit that nb is one of the classes that makes you feel like you just got reset for no good reason even if technically there is a reason and all that.
I know this potion will hurt some but I'd be lying if I said for once I didn't want to just see a large battle actually get to play out without nukes going off every other minute or so.
Though I can't really say that because I suspect bombs will still very much happen, just not from stealth.0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
An occasional play on some character is not the same thing.
Well I was just trying to illustrate that I too will feel the impact of the change and while you say occasionally I will say this. Of my 18 fully leveled skills unlocked characters I really only have a around 4 sorcs and one nightblade ready to go, golded out gear, etc if that tell you just how important that bit of utility is for me.
This potion change could very well mean that I will have no way to deal with bully groups who will kill and squat me / bully other players. That won't be an easy thing to eat and I'm not saying I won't change my vote if this goes live an turns out to be basically bad for everyone.
I love my NB the most because it allows me to play completely solo. I don't have the opportunity to play with guild friends because my job simply doesn't allow it, and NB was the only character that allowed me to jump into Cyrodiil or IC for a moment without the fear of small scalers or zergs hard trying to kill me everywhere I go.
I prefer solo and only get to run with guildies or friends here and there so I understand the levels people will go to when trying to kill you.
I'll say this after thinking about what you're saying for a moment. For you and players like you that want to use cloak as a way to get around pvp zones unmolested I can definitely see the issue.
That being said, some of us still want to know what this change will look like on live. I don't know if this will improve overall quality of life for more than it hurts but there's only -one way to find out I'm afraid.
I think you don't realize the gravity of this change for NB. It might as well be possible to remove cloak from the bar because among enemies, there will always be at least one who will use this potion. And this, in turn, leads to the complete annihilation of what NB is.
As I indicated above in a few ways, I do realize the gravity of the change in a few ways but I'm also seeing that you want to play nightblade in a particular way and to also say that this is the annihilation of what nightblade is would be a bit of a reach.
Yes it's possibly close to an annihilation of nightblade if you're mostly trying to run around pvp zones undiscovered. I'm not yet ready to agree with this killing off bombers and even gankers yet because this has yet to be fully tested on live.
I do know though that I've fought very strong brawler blades that could kill me and others without much issue at times and that could heal through my damage. If brawler spec is the only one people end up being able to play then I would agree there is a problem and the change would need to be reverted but I just can't say without actually seeing it in live because I think the player base might try something new after the change.
when someone supports changes like this, it's obvious to me that despite their beautiful and flowery statements, they don't have the good of the game in mind, but rather their own satisfaction.
Depends on what you think is good. For me it would be good for the game if we fully understood what a change like this means to the player base.
Honestly it boils down to this. If this change is so bad then the players will heavily complain in mass after it goes live and then it will be reverted. ZOS does make very questionable choices but I don't think they will do anything that truly hurts revenue at least not for too too long. Though I admit even on that they've challenged my beliefs.
But here's my question, do you think enough players on live will back the idea of this being a bad change or do you think most will either not care or like it?
Because the truth is that if this is what the majority wants then that's likely better for the game as it will keep that majority happy and coming back and maybe even bring in new players. It's not the best development answer but might serve to keep the game going a bit longer.
So if people decide they want this more than not are you ok giving it up for the overall betterment of the game that you say you care about? Or do you more so care about the game when it fits the direction that works for you?
I'm just trying to be clear about which ways we care about the game. For me personally they could have made the potion say streak doesn't work within 100 meters for 15 seconds and I really wouldn't care because while I do love streak, I just play sorc because I just like playing a sorc. I'd just modify my build so that I could still play sorc with some level of success.
Now several other player would revolt and the change would just get reverted and I'd just put my build back to where it was and ZOS would know nobody likes this potion effect enough to keep it.
I think I care about the game but I accept ZOS for what they are so I only care about it to the level they seem to care.
There is a difference between testing balance improvements and making absurd changes. Following your line of reasoning, if we were to nerf DK to the ground so that it was the worst possible class in PvP, the MAJORITY of players would be satisfied (considering statistics and natural distribution) because those who play DK as their MAIN are a minority. Would that be good for the game because the MAJORITY is satisfied? What if we treated Sorc the same way instead of DK? Do you understand what I'm getting at? The majority of players are not a good indicator of what is right, because the majority of players will always want to grab the biggest piece of cake for themselves. That's why it's so important for the dev team to make balanced and thoughtful decisions. Changing the value of any skill by 500% would lead to terrible consequences. Imagine any skill suddenly having a range of 150-200 meters. That's absurd, not "testing."Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge5 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Five pages in and still no official word... how difficult is it to say 'yes, intended' or 'no, not intended--looking into it'... Unless they are biding their time, so people buy the chapter first, and then confirm it, because this will obliterate a lot of peoples' playstyle, and they might understandably leave or take a break.3 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Imagine any skill suddenly having a range of 150-200 meters. That's absurd, not "testing."
We had shenaningans like these, maybe not 150 but solid 50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQb6EHw40gs 3 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭There are numerous counters to cloak already.
BUT, a skilled nb can counter with dodge rolls, shade, shade, etc to get out of detect range and reenter cloak. THAT IS THE COUNTER PLAY.
no one dies. Counter and counter. That is perfect. That is the way it should be.
The players that are happy for this change want to be able to kill everything and feel the game should be designed that way. Well it shouldn't. There has to be counters for every class, not one size fits all. (Well maybe DK lol).
If you go with this change you are forcing all nbs to be brawlers. Well there are far better classes for brawler. I will dust off my dks and join the train.4
