So is there going to be an official ZOS comment on 100m Essence Of Detection potions change?

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

There should not be a class, build, or item that counters everything. If a player doesn't want to use one of the 20 clubters already in game to find nbs that's on them.

Don't make it even easier

This is misleading. In this case the item counters something and requires the player to give up something in exchange.

Technically this is really only a problem if cloak was the only way a NB could defend itself. Most of the stronger NBS don't actually need cloak to defend or attack.

Even still the effect is on a timer so any NB has time to get distance or choose to engage in that time.

Ganking and bombing can still be done though the targets and engagement will be more selective.

I've seen almost every class in this game either be top or bottom tier, NB can suck it up and evolve for a patch or two.

Not what I meant. I was saying that the players that like this change are the ones that want things changed to make it easier for the way they play.

This is not only going to kill gankers, newbies, it's going to kill bombers too. Pop the potion and you will immediately see any bomber near by. There is another playstyle gone.

There is no reason this should go live other than to make players that need to play better and keep their buffs up, lives easier. It's a joke

ShadowProc

If this goes live the range of shade should be increased accordingly to 100m.

It's the same logic that everything should have a counter.

Give nbs a chance to escape.

This is a death sentence. Top dog DKs will annihilate the entire nb population

Bushido2513

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I mean ultimately if this intended and is a counter for stealth why not have a counter for other things that come up regularly too?

I hear a lot of noise in these forums about the 'tanky meta' (whatever that may be) so why not have a pot that disables all armour in a 100M radius for 15s for instance?

Technically there are counters for everything but what you're saying is make every counter into a potion effect and that's just not how the game is designed.

The whole point is counterplay. I'm pretty sure people won't stop playing NB if this goes live. They will just play it differently and I'm betting not even unsuccessfully.

Mayrael

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I mean ultimately if this intended and is a counter for stealth why not have a counter for other things that come up regularly too?

I hear a lot of noise in these forums about the 'tanky meta' (whatever that may be) so why not have a pot that disables all armour in a 100M radius for 15s for instance?

Technically there are counters for everything but what you're saying is make every counter into a potion effect and that's just not how the game is designed.

The whole point is counterplay. I'm pretty sure people won't stop playing NB if this goes live. They will just play it differently and I'm betting not even unsuccessfully.

Actually I will, not because I can't play without cloak but I simply refuse to be a monkey in someone's circus.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

Not what I meant. I was saying that the players that like this change are the ones that want things changed to make it easier for the way they play.

This is not only going to kill gankers, newbies, it's going to kill bombers too. Pop the potion and you will immediately see any bomber near by. There is another playstyle gone.

There is no reason this should go live other than to make players that need to play better and keep their buffs up, lives easier. It's a joke

So you want those other players to get better yet we can't say that NB could also get better? I'm saying that to say that I have played bomber as well as ganker and I feel like it's saying too much without knowing to say that this will crush those playstyles.

I think people will do what they've always done in this game when something like this happens, adapt and find a way to do what they want.

No doubt this would put a dent in those playstyles but it won't be the end of them by far. Again, you don't see around walls or around corners.

Also nb has some of the best self heal, mobility, and overall class utility in the game. Lack of full time stealth certainly won't be the death of it.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

If this goes live the range of shade should be increased accordingly to 100m.

It's the same logic that everything should have a counter.

Give nbs a chance to escape.

This is a death sentence. Top dog DKs will annihilate the entire nb population

Or people could do what they have been doing and just use really good shade placement combined with major expedition and or use of terrain. Pot or not, you're not catching a good nb that doesn't want to be caught.

Oh and DKs just annihilate regardless due to illogical and insane continuous buffs but that's another thread. When built correctly 1v1 a nb can hang with dk to a fair degree. But if the build sacrificed other things and relies on stealth then you have to expect to be countered at some point.

Side note I would probably be more on nb side if the skill had a ramping cost or some other self regulation but in the current state I think this counter is a bit harsh but not something that can't be worked around.

Also even if it goes live it won't stay this way for more than a patch or two.

DrNukenstein

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Side note I would probably be more on nb side if the skill had a ramping cost or some other self regulation but in the current state I think this counter is a bit harsh but not something that can't be worked around.

The ramping cost argument sounds very fair until you play a night blade up close and realize that you don't usually get your 3 seconds of stealth for your 3-4k magicka. You see any direct damage will break cloak whether it's aoe, a status tick, a projectile that wasn't disjointed at the right moment. That's before considering things that specifically exist to counter and deny it. It's not like roll, mist, or streak where you get the distance and secondary effects/i-frames every time you push the button.

Galeriano

ShadowProc wrote: »

If this goes live the range of shade should be increased accordingly to 100m.

It's the same logic that everything should have a counter.

Give nbs a chance to escape.

This is a death sentence. Top dog DKs will annihilate the entire nb population

Your chance to escape will happen after 15 seconds potion duration will end. Nightblade currently have more than enough tools to survive for that long.

Bushido2513

Mayrael wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I mean ultimately if this intended and is a counter for stealth why not have a counter for other things that come up regularly too?

I hear a lot of noise in these forums about the 'tanky meta' (whatever that may be) so why not have a pot that disables all armour in a 100M radius for 15s for instance?

Technically there are counters for everything but what you're saying is make every counter into a potion effect and that's just not how the game is designed.

The whole point is counterplay. I'm pretty sure people won't stop playing NB if this goes live. They will just play it differently and I'm betting not even unsuccessfully.

Actually I will, not because I can't play without cloak but I simply refuse to be a monkey in someone's circus.

I respect that, this game has long been about adapt to whatever we decide is the flavor of the patch cycle. For some that's cool and for the others it's a legit pain. At this point I just try to squeeze out fun where I can but I admit they are making it harder and harder if you're not new to the game.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Side note I would probably be more on nb side if the skill had a ramping cost or some other self regulation but in the current state I think this counter is a bit harsh but not something that can't be worked around.

The ramping cost argument sounds very fair until you play a night blade up close and realize that you don't usually get your 3 seconds of stealth for your 3-4k magicka. You see any direct damage will break cloak whether it's aoe, a status tick, a projectile that wasn't disjointed at the right moment. That's before considering things that specifically exist to counter and deny it. It's not like roll, mist, or streak where you get the distance and secondary effects/i-frames every time you push the button.

Depends on play style. For instance if I use cloak I'm just using it to active buffs and setup an attack. I'm not really worried about getting the full duration in all cases because if I get detected I have offense and defense to work the situation out. Ramping costs when done correctly just encourage correct use of the tool and can even offer more rewarding gameplay depending on your style. If someone wants to spam a skill like cloak they need to spec just a bit more into doing so in my opinion.

DrNukenstein

yes, but the primary function is invisibility. I do not believe a ramping cost is fair until things that aren't intended as a direct counter to invisibility don't break invisibility. The precedent is Mist, Streak, Roll etc, giving their full benefits at the press of a button with no potential for an enemy to deny it.

I mean they gutted snake in the stars because of how unfair it might have been to deny heal over time effects for 4 seconds to any given player. Is it really any more fair to deny a core defense and kit feature to specific types of players either through incidental damage, long duration with potions, or indefinitely with coordinated potion use?

blktauna

The point you are devolving from is that they have not outright answered the question.

ZOS,
Is this an error or did you actually want to stealth change the workings of a potion?

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

yes, but the primary function is invisibility. I do not believe a ramping cost is fair until things that aren't intended as a direct counter to invisibility don't break invisibility. The precedent is Mist, Streak, Roll etc, giving their full benefits at the press of a button with no potential for an enemy to deny it.

I mean they gutted snake in the stars because of how unfair it might have been to deny heal over time effects for 4 seconds to any given player. Is it really any more fair to deny a core defense and kit feature to specific types of players either through incidental damage, long duration with potions, or indefinitely with coordinated potion use?

I would agree that it should be one or the other but not both in terms of ramp or effects that reveal.

So nobody denies the cloak,they counter. Just like streak, mist, etc can be countered with gap closers, etc. If I streak and you gap close, it's countered to some degree.

It's fair to again counter their action with your own as long as they have counters. If they were to die without cloak this would matter but NB has such a good kit that not having cloak isn't an instant death sentence.

Bushido2513

blktauna wrote: »

The point you are devolving from is that they have not outright answered the question.

ZOS,
Is this an error or did you actually want to stealth change the workings of a potion?

Not really a point to get away from. If they didn't fall to the pressure of the first 30 posts I think they are pretty much saying they will answer when they're ready

blktauna

Bushido2513 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

The point you are devolving from is that they have not outright answered the question.

ZOS,
Is this an error or did you actually want to stealth change the workings of a potion?

Not really a point to get away from. If they didn't fall to the pressure of the first 30 posts I think they are pretty much saying they will answer when they're ready

Then prepare for this thread to be closed for derailment

Bushido2513

blktauna wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

The point you are devolving from is that they have not outright answered the question.

ZOS,
Is this an error or did you actually want to stealth change the workings of a potion?

Not really a point to get away from. If they didn't fall to the pressure of the first 30 posts I think they are pretty much saying they will answer when they're ready

Then prepare for this thread to be closed for derailment

Sadly that's if they even notice enough or care to do anything

DrNukenstein

yes a gap closer is a counter to mobility skills. Your target made distance, and you countered the attempt to make distance by using an expensive gap closer. you did, not your whole team or anyone on a different team than the target. CC is janky on those. If it lands once the animation started they are cc'd at their destination, not where they started the animation. CC delays the next streak/mist and gives a chance to catch up, but the intended effect of distance made still happens.

if someone cloaks and that cloak is broken the first second before distance is made or they position for their attack then that cloak is denied. They do not get the intended benefit of what they paid magicka for. It is not just denied between you and the cloaker, it is denied between the cloaker and anyone hostile to the cloaker. Arguments of a denial vs a counter apply even more strongly to detect effects. Detect effects actually being a fair method of denial when they don't cover a full 100 meters and share their effect with everyone simultaneously.

And all of this is secondary to the argument at hand. Is this potion range increase a significant enough gameplay change to warrant an explanation?

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

yes a gap closer is a counter to mobility skills. Your target made distance, and you countered the attempt to make distance by using an expensive gap closer. you did, not your whole team or anyone on a different team than the target. CC is janky on those. If it lands once the animation started they are cc'd at their destination, not where they started the animation. CC delays the next streak/mist and gives a chance to catch up, but the intended effect of distance made still happens.

if someone cloaks and that cloak is broken the first second before distance is made or they position for their attack then that cloak is denied. They do not get the intended benefit of what they paid magicka for. It is not just denied between you and the cloaker, it is denied between the cloaker and anyone hostile to the cloaker. Arguments of a denial vs a counter apply even more strongly to detect effects. Detect effects actually being a fair method of denial when they don't cover a full 100 meters and share their effect with everyone simultaneously.

And all of this is secondary to the argument at hand. Is this potion range increase a significant enough gameplay change to warrant an explanation?

I've been in both those scenarios on both ends and yes we could debate the cost issue of the thing and the thing used to counter the thing but I'll say in my experience the result is fairly similar. If I pop either of those skills and someone counters I'll likely just have to fight. Keep casting streak and they keep gap closing and these days everyone has sustain. Keep cloaking and they keep revealing. It's just a case for me that at that point I've been nullified on that tactic so I have to fight.

And if it's 1 or 10 in either case you're equally likely to get jumped just because of the first initial counter from a single player.


But to yours and the central point. An explanation is desired but not warranted.

I say that because this is truly a thread on a sweater. Pull this string and what, ignore the 20 other strings? It's actually more consistent if they just don't say anything and do what they've done in every other case at this point.

I really don't care for them to explain this if they aren't going to explain the lack of balance in PvE/pvp, the real reason it's taken so long to fix performance, the 17 missing qol elements we really asked for, the set designs that almost make no sense at times. And the list goes on.

This change will overall be about as impactful as any of the other things they pass off then revert later for who knows what reason.

So at this point asking someone to explain why they keep gut punching you is about the same as asking why you keep letting them. It's status quo

And yes I do hope the game gets better someday. I'm just trying to point out that holding them accountable hasn't worked so fars for years so why should it now?

blktauna

Hope reigns eternal

AuraNebula

blktauna wrote: »

The point you are devolving from is that they have not outright answered the question.

ZOS,
Is this an error or did you actually want to stealth change the workings of a potion?

Yes this is what they want. Honestly I do not think the pvp combat devs want bombers and gankers in the game anymore. They have been nerfing them for years. There is a large majority on the forums who scream and cry about NBs and they listen to them because they also feel that bombers and NBs are unfair.

I play other classes but bombing has always been my favorite play style. I like the high risk, high reward function of the game and they have completely removed that.

Now it's just play a DK or you're not going to have a good time in PvP. Healing and the tank meta is going to rule PvP from here on out. I wanted to give this game another shot but they don't care about me or other stealth players.

If this is how they want the game then whatever. I'm not going to participate in PvP.

Bushido2513

AuraNebula wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

The point you are devolving from is that they have not outright answered the question.

ZOS,
Is this an error or did you actually want to stealth change the workings of a potion?

Yes this is what they want. Honestly I do not think the pvp combat devs want bombers and gankers in the game anymore. They have been nerfing them for years. There is a large majority on the forums who scream and cry about NBs and they listen to them because they also feel that bombers and NBs are unfair.

I play other classes but bombing has always been my favorite play style. I like the high risk, high reward function of the game and they have completely removed that.

Now it's just play a DK or you're not going to have a good time in PvP. Healing and the tank meta is going to rule PvP from here on out. I wanted to give this game another shot but they don't care about me or other stealth players.

If this is how they want the game then whatever. I'm not going to participate in PvP.

Yes with this latest move bombing and ganking will be harder to pull off than ever but not impossible at all for the skilled and determined bomber.

I think people are just saying the sky is falling but I've seen the same thing happen several times only for a new unexpected meta to happen. I mean hey give the players some credit for adapting to these wild patch cycles.

I will say though that I think making this change without dealing with dk is very rough. But again none of this is sadly new 😞

Bushido2513

blktauna wrote: »

Hope reigns eternal

Hey I'm with you but they sure keep digging quite the hole to have to get themselves out of lol.

To do list:

Upgrade servers
Create working communication and feedback mechanism for players
Fix game code, maybe overhaul
Establish class balance
Separate PVP and PvE
Revamp all skills to be functional and relative to class or theme
Cleanup rewards system for all game formats
And so on


That might be more hope than I have available 😂

AuraNebula

Bushido2513 wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

The point you are devolving from is that they have not outright answered the question.

ZOS,
Is this an error or did you actually want to stealth change the workings of a potion?

Yes this is what they want. Honestly I do not think the pvp combat devs want bombers and gankers in the game anymore. They have been nerfing them for years. There is a large majority on the forums who scream and cry about NBs and they listen to them because they also feel that bombers and NBs are unfair.

I play other classes but bombing has always been my favorite play style. I like the high risk, high reward function of the game and they have completely removed that.

Now it's just play a DK or you're not going to have a good time in PvP. Healing and the tank meta is going to rule PvP from here on out. I wanted to give this game another shot but they don't care about me or other stealth players.

If this is how they want the game then whatever. I'm not going to participate in PvP.

Yes with this latest move bombing and ganking will be harder to pull off than ever but not impossible at all for the skilled and determined bomber.

I think people are just saying the sky is falling but I've seen the same thing happen several times only for a new unexpected meta to happen. I mean hey give the players some credit for adapting to these wild patch cycles.

I will say though that I think making this change without dealing with dk is very rough. But again none of this is sadly new 😞

I've been a bomber for a long time. There is only so much you can adapt to. There are so many counters and skills that pull you out of stealth already. Unless you're running a brawler build there is no more traditional bombing on a NB because any class can run a brawler bombing build.

Why play a squishy NB that can't stealth when you can just run a DK brawler bomber build?

There has not been a new meta is 1.5 years. There isn't going to be a new meta. This is what the devs want for the game so this is how it will stay. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that's just how I see it. I've been playing this game for seven years, I have never seen it like this.

ioResult

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's fair to again counter their action with your own as long as they have counters. If they were to die without cloak this would matter but NB has such a good kit that not having cloak isn't an instant death sentence.

"NB has such a good kit"? At this point ONLY if you play a brawler blade, does NB have anywhere near a good kit, It's kit with this change will become only for the one play style where you might as well be a DK, Sorc or Templar because the utterly simple PvP play style is EXACTLY the same:

1) Buff
2) Heal through everything until Ulti is ready
3) Stun & Ultidump
4) If target not dead, hump a tower or a rock or a tree and go back to step 1.

While this play style might be fun for some, it is not for all.

And all ZOS seems to want to do is encourage this one simple play style that is geared towards controllers.

So outside this one meta-*** play style (which is exactly all that ball groups do too), everyone else is supposed to just grin & bare it?

100m range for anything is not a "counter". It is a complete negation of a class ability and a complete negation of multiple other PvP activities. Let's not even talk about ganking:

1) Players can no longer hide in keeps to try to take them back from the inside.
2) Players can no longer move away from a battle to crouch to hide and regain resources.
3) Players can no longer crouch up on high places to surveil and report enemy movements.
4) Squads of players can't crouch and hide to move into position to assault a keep.

Shall I go on?

If you do ANYTHING in open world PvP in ESO other than simply hump towers and keeps to "farm noobs", you know, like play the map, all that's over with, with 100m detect pots.

ZOS evidently wants to return to 18th century warfare where two sides stand in a field and simply shoot at each other. BORING and not why *MOST* people play open world PvP.

So what we're asking @ZOS_GinaBruno and the rest of the staff is if they truly understand the implications of this change and if they have considered them, to please explain their rationale behind this change. If they can't do that, they lose more revenue because I for one and I know others will turn ESO Plus off and will have no interest in their new class or their new PvE content so will ask for a refund for our prepayment of this new patch.

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Not what I meant. I was saying that the players that like this change are the ones that want things changed to make it easier for the way they play.

This is not only going to kill gankers, newbies, it's going to kill bombers too. Pop the potion and you will immediately see any bomber near by. There is another playstyle gone.

There is no reason this should go live other than to make players that need to play better and keep their buffs up, lives easier. It's a joke

So you want those other players to get better yet we can't say that NB could also get better? I'm saying that to say that I have played bomber as well as ganker and I feel like it's saying too much without knowing to say that this will crush those playstyles.

I think people will do what they've always done in this game when something like this happens, adapt and find a way to do what they want.

No doubt this would put a dent in those playstyles but it won't be the end of them by far. Again, you don't see around walls or around corners.

Also nb has some of the best self heal, mobility, and overall class utility in the game. Lack of full time stealth certainly won't be the death of it.

I would love to get better. Tell me how?

Classes were designed a certain way. Nbs are burst damage with that will melt if you pin them down. Which good players already do.

If you take away cloak which is the main defense for most nbs your breaking a class.

There are a million counters already including detect potions. Which do you need to be able to see every single stealthy player on the entire render distance.

MAKES ZERO SENSE.

So yes you need to get better

ShadowProc

Galeriano wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

If this goes live the range of shade should be increased accordingly to 100m.

It's the same logic that everything should have a counter.

Give nbs a chance to escape.

This is a death sentence. Top dog DKs will annihilate the entire nb population

Your chance to escape will happen after 15 seconds potion duration will end. Nightblade currently have more than enough tools to survive for that long.

Wait what?

If you pin a nb he is dead in way less than 15 seconds.

How are people honestly defending a potion that will reveal every single stealthed player in render distance?

Cannot believe I came back after a year and there is crap like this being defended

Bushido2513

AuraNebula wrote: »

I've been a bomber for a long time. There is only so much you can adapt to. There are so many counters and skills that pull you out of stealth already. Unless you're running a brawler build there is no more traditional bombing on a NB because any class can run a brawler bombing build.

Why play a squishy NB that can't stealth when you can just run a DK brawler bomber build?

There has not been a new meta is 1.5 years. There isn't going to be a new meta. This is what the devs want for the game so this is how it will stay. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that's just how I see it. I've been playing this game for seven years, I have never seen it like this.

So here's my question, how do you know any of what you just said for sure until this actually goes live and everyone gets a chance to try adapting on live? You're speaking facts to things that none of us can know until this hits live.

I'll say it another way. There have been interesting builds and playstyles that have come from changes like this before that nobody saw coming until someone theorycrafted after live.

I don't have a crystal ball either I'm just also not ready to call out things I can't say for sure. To your point maybe it won't be traditional bombing as we know it today but some morph of it. For better or worse the game is always forcing some type of evolution so I'm ok with seeing where this takes us before making too many judgements.

Bushido2513

ioResult wrote: »

"NB has such a good kit"? At this point ONLY if you play a brawler blade, does NB have anywhere near a good kit, It's kit with this change will become only for the one play style where you might as well be a DK, Sorc or Templar because the utterly simple PvP play style is EXACTLY the same:
.

Correct I was only speaking of a good kit for pvp in general. Technically speaking for a bomber I think it still has the best kit of all even after the change though I recognize that might not be saying a whole bunch.

ioResult wrote: »

So outside this one meta-*** play style (which is exactly all that ball groups do too), everyone else is supposed to just grin & bare it?

Again I would caution against speaking towards a meta that neither you or I know for sure will exist should this change go live. I will say that yes whatever comes with the change will have to be bore by all. Nearly every player of this game whishes something was different in each patch and that's just how it goes. We all have to spend a patch or five taking one for the team. Just do the usual, report it as loudly as you can and take your lumps like a champ until maybe ZOS does something different based on feedback that we all have no understanding of at this point and call it a day.

ioResult wrote: »

100m range for anything is not a "counter". It is a complete negation of a class ability and a complete negation of multiple other PvP activities. Let's not even talk about ganking:

Again that's your guess and I'd say we won't know until if and when this goes live. I'm not saying I deny what the potion does I'm saying we don't now how many will run it, care to run it, what playstyles might possibly evolve from this, etc. Too many variables to say what will actually happen if this goes live.

ioResult wrote: »

1) Players can no longer hide in keeps to try to take them back from the inside.
2) Players can no longer move away from a battle to crouch to hide and regain resources.
3) Players can no longer crouch up on high places to surveil and report enemy movements.
4) Squads of players can't crouch and hide to move into position to assault a keep.

Shall I go on?

If you do ANYTHING in open world PvP in ESO other than simply hump towers and keeps to "farm noobs", you know, like play the map, all that's over with, with 100m detect pots.

.

I mean you can go on guessing what you think the game will look like after the change. This also assumes that everyone will run detect pots constantly in place of other pots they might currently prefer. I'm not saying that this isn't true or possible just that you're making sooooooo many statements based off what you think will happen but that none of us can truly know.

ioResult wrote: »

So what we're asking @ZOS_GinaBruno and the rest of the staff is if they truly understand the implications of this change and if they have considered them, to please explain their rationale behind this change. If they can't do that, they lose more revenue because I for one and I know others will turn ESO Plus off and will have no interest in their new class or their new PvE content so will ask for a refund for our prepayment of this new patch.

You're correct they will lose your revenue but honesty they might also gain more depending on how well this change is received and what comes after. Sadly you may just not be the target audience of this game anymore if this breaks it for you.

As for if ZOS understands what they are doing. Well they've been monetizing this game left and right, making all kinds of changes, and have yet to go out of business while also still having a reasonable player base. I tend to think every change they make is really driven by motivations that work for them but that they can't or won't share because that would actually hurt the direction of what they are trying to do.

ebix_

honestly as a nightblade I dont mind this change!
if you play melee, invis cloak rarely saves your life since there is always something to break it... even detect pots right now are useful against melee blades, but for ranged nightblades cloak is a life saver!
however 100m might be overkill if its intended. maybe like 50 or something around that range!
can even players render 100m away?
but if this goes live please change detect pots name to Sauran's Sight! with the flaming eye texture hunting you.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

I would love to get better. Tell me how?

I mean that's a longer conversation and depends on what you're going for. But do I believe NB has a great toolkit that can work with or without cloak yes I do. Now if you're asking me how to be a better bomber or ganker if this change goes live I won't lie to you, I don't have that information yet....because the change isn't live. I am just willing to gamble that there is a chance to adapt but we won't know that until after this change hits live. After that if you want to tell me what playstyle you're going for and how you can still somewhat pull it off then I'll be happy to give you a technical analysis.

ShadowProc wrote: »

Classes were designed a certain way. Nbs are burst damage with that will melt if you pin them down. Which good players already do.

This depends on the build and what you're going for. For bombers this would be correct however what I'm saying is that things may evolve after this change goes live to show a way of bombing that wasn't previously though of. And yes it might not hit the same levels but I'm just not ready to say it will be dead and another bomb will never go off because of this change.

ShadowProc wrote: »

If you take away cloak which is the main defense for most nbs your breaking a class.

It's a defense tool and a strong one but main is subjective to your build. Though I will admit that for a bomber that is quite fragile this is the main form of defense (currently). Whether the class will be broken can only be seen after the patch. I say this because there are too many variables to just say that this change will cause that effect for sure.

ShadowProc wrote: »

There are a million counters already including detect potions. Which do you need to be able to see every single stealthy player on the entire render distance.

MAKES ZERO SENSE.

Depends on how you look at it and the direction of the game which you or I are not privy to. If this goes live I'd guess it makes sense to ZOS who obviously isn't trying to kill off their cash cow I'd figure.

ShadowProc wrote: »

So yes you need to get better

I intend on trying some different ideas if this change goes live and I am already thinking of other more knowledgeable players that will likely do the same. Honestly I used to just rail against these oddball changes ZOS seems to be making but it's clear they have a vision and that I can either roll with it and try to have fun or move along. I'm just choosing to look at it for whatever fun I can get and sometimes an interesting challenge to try to work around.