Why do some people hate HA?

OsUfi · May 2023

nemesrichard wrote: »

[Snip]

It is overpowered. It is going to nerfed. Either we take a small nerf now that fine tunes it, balances it, takes a few % off the top end. Nothing major. And we discuss this properly. We do this in the hopes it doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

Overpowered oakensoul builds effects me, and my game time, because I have said so many damned times now, I play a Ha build. I don't want it to get nerfed into the ground. I can still stand back and say, objectively, for the effort required, it is wildly overpowered.

Every pug I'm in is overwhelmed with heavy attack lightning. Every battleground there's heavy attackers. Heck, I'm one of them. If you can't look at this and realise how dominant it is, how ripe for a major nerf this is, and come to the table to discuss how we can dial from a 10 to a 9, we're going to get slapped down to a 4.

I just... How can you not?... I mean... Urgh...

[Edited quote]

FrancisCrawford · May 2023

HappyDan wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

I am a casual adult player as the majority of players in this game and who is here to have FUN after work and to treat myself I spend money on this game. As I see we have 2 options to get good dps. HA or 2 bars LA weaving. I dont enjoy LA weaving so I wont play it. If HA wont be good enough after nerf I wont play the game and go spend my money in another game.

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

Pls read through this and the other threads and drink a shot after every negative comment welcoming the nerf and telling negative comments about HA users. Friendly advice call the ambulance before it.

Couple of things, when U35 dropped (or was during PTS) all casuals cheered than endgamers getting *** and if you took a shot for every pro nerf for U35 you'd get an alcohol poising very fast so the tables have turned.
But back to your statement:
First of all you can have 2 bar builds without having to attack with the new mythic as it nerfs all of your LA's so that's a third option for less experienced people.
Second, HA sorcs are getting a 2-3% overall nerf that's it I really don't see the reason to panic almost every build gets slightly nerfed here and then and losing 3% overall dps is peanuts. Don't forget HA is around 40% of your overall damage on oaken HA sorc build, so very small precentage of your damage gets nerfed it's not like your build gets a flat 10% nerf! So anything you did on your sorc will still be available just that a fight will take couple of extra seconds that's it no need to panic. But like always people panic like crazy mostly people that have no idea how the game works (not you specifically but a lot of forum dwellers here) and when you show them facts that what they say is false and the nerf is way less sever they start screeching for no reason.
A lot of people crying that their build is barely working in PTS well few things, PTS has many bugs for example the dummy buffs don't fully work and class passives don't always work either so that can effect parses as well.
So tldr don't worry your build isn't getting gutted just a small tune up that's it.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Not only is "all" a wild exaggeration, I don't recall that being a major theme at all.

And I post a lot here, read a lot here, and surely qualify as a "casual" myself. (Never done a trial, never done the 5th round of VMA, never done a vet dungeon harder than WGT/ICP ...)

Gentleslash · May 2023

I have answered your question. I literally answered you in that post. Re read it. Several times if you have to.

You said "huh, this feels overpowered.", but he can say "huh, this feels perfect.". You both are right from your own perspective. I think it would be better if the devs provided some real numbers instead of talking about "inches" of dps.

Personally, the HA sorc build is what brought me back to the game. However, I don't really like the animations and the sound. Being unable to move freely is not fun either. As soon as I gained some knowledge and confidence, I switched to a LA build. My DPS is roughly the same, if not lower (yes, I am bad at weaving), but I enjoy the LA build more. I don't queue for hard content, so I don't think that a few more "inches" of DPS is more important than me playing how I like.

To the players with wrist pain - hold the mouse with a different hand when playing or working. For example, at work I use the mouse with my right hand. When I play, I use the mouse with my left hand. It is hard in the beginning, but you get used to it. After a few months, the pain was gone.

Rowjoh · May 2023

I'm working towards a non-meta and potentially extremely hard hitting, super tanky pve HA build, and cant wait to try it out, especially in vet Vateshrans Hollows.

Even factoring in the upcoming slight nerf to 'empowered', if all goes according to plan, I'll be getting the rest of those perfected weapons much quicker than the first one!

nemesrichard · May 2023

OsUfi wrote: »

It is overpowered. It is going to nerfed. Either we take a small nerf now that fine tunes it, balances it, takes a few % off the top end. Nothing major. And we discuss this properly. We do this in the hopes it doesn't get nerfed into the ground.

Overpowered oakensoul builds effects me, and my game time, because I have said so many damned times now, I play a Ha build. I don't want it to get nerfed into the ground. I can still stand back and say, objectively, for the effort required, it is wildly overpowered.

Every pug I'm in is overwhelmed with heavy attack lightning. Every battleground there's heavy attackers. Heck, I'm one of them. If you can't look at this and realise how dominant it is, how ripe for a major nerf this is, and come to the table to discuss how we can dial from a 10 to a 9, we're going to get slapped down to a 4.

I just... How can you not?... I mean... Urgh...

[Snip] But I disagree. It is not owerpowered compared to "proper" builds it is just easy. Thats why you can find a lot in PVE yet can be outperformed by a skilled player easily. And dont tell me any HA build is better than DK or Warden in PVP. Just a lot easier to use. So just because something is easier and therefore popular is not owerpowered. This is my opinion.

Yet I understand your fears that it will be heavily nerfed but I dont think so because too many casual adult players with fat bank account like me wont struggle with LA weaving build that is not fun, tiring, and need skill

but most likely leave the game.

[Edited for removed content and quote]

FrancisCrawford · May 2023

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

It matters little whether people actually hate my fun, or just want to lovingly and compassionately nerf it away.

No one hates that you have fun, but alot of people don't realize that while they're having fun they may be taking the fun away from others. For alot of players, vet trials are competitive content. And I don't mean whether your group just gets it cleared or not but competing with each other. Maybe its different for console players, I don't know, but as a PC player I always keep looking Hodors (live dps addon) and logs. For sure it's nice to clear, get good score, achievements or whatever, but most endgamers also care about their performance. I personally like to be high up on Hodors list. But since everyone and their mom has adopted oaken HA build, I'm getting out parsed by people who just few months ago were spamming bow light attacks in random dungeons doing 5k dps. Of course it makes me a little salty. I've put in alot of time and effort to farm gear, adapt to changes every patch, learned rotations and weaving and now I'm behind the players who hold down 1 button. I can't parse 130k so now my only option is to switch to oaken also. How is this healthy to the game if everyone uses the same build. Zos should rename the game to Elder HA Online or Elder Oaken Online.
I'm not trying to gatekeep here. I'm not saying that oaken HA should be nerfed to the ground. But the way it currently is on pts, it's still too OP. I have nothing against more people being able to do harder content, I think its great, but currently they are having fun at my expense.

As I have mentioned a couple times in this thread already, I do think Oaken HA is a pretty good thing for the overall health of the game in terms of getting players into veteran content - but even the players who swear by HA have to admit that like 90% of progression style players have picked up this build, not just because of it's "ease of access" but because the build gives substantially more benefits to players who use it compared to the players who are using LA builds and are currently at a similar skill level or even players who are slightly above them.

Let us say that the average LA build user who is progging DLC trial HMs hits anywhere between 80k-100k dps depending on sets and level of practice - and I will say that I'm probably overestimating these numbers - the exact same DPS can be provided on a build that takes 10% of the effort to hit the same numbers as you would do on a LA build, while also having significantly more resistances, 3-4k more health, 100% cleave damage, infinite sustain and all while having a rotation that consists of like 4 buttons. Unless I was trying to get runs with very high scores or trifectas in the newest trials there is literally zero reason to use anything else to complete the content as efficiently as I can on the OakenSorc.

So if progression groups are flocking to HA builds, which builds are they using? I'd hope they include:

A warden to give AoE Major/Minor Breach, and also the guaranteed Off-Balance from Birds -- or is a non-HA Brittleden taking care of all that?
A templar for the Minor spell power buff.
One or more sorcerers rotating in Dark Magic skills for the Minor crit buff.
One or more sorcerers running Twilight Matriarch for the off-heals.

Anything else, or is the rest free choice?

kringled_1 · May 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

It matters little whether people actually hate my fun, or just want to lovingly and compassionately nerf it away.

No one hates that you have fun, but alot of people don't realize that while they're having fun they may be taking the fun away from others. For alot of players, vet trials are competitive content. And I don't mean whether your group just gets it cleared or not but competing with each other. Maybe its different for console players, I don't know, but as a PC player I always keep looking Hodors (live dps addon) and logs. For sure it's nice to clear, get good score, achievements or whatever, but most endgamers also care about their performance. I personally like to be high up on Hodors list. But since everyone and their mom has adopted oaken HA build, I'm getting out parsed by people who just few months ago were spamming bow light attacks in random dungeons doing 5k dps. Of course it makes me a little salty. I've put in alot of time and effort to farm gear, adapt to changes every patch, learned rotations and weaving and now I'm behind the players who hold down 1 button. I can't parse 130k so now my only option is to switch to oaken also. How is this healthy to the game if everyone uses the same build. Zos should rename the game to Elder HA Online or Elder Oaken Online.
I'm not trying to gatekeep here. I'm not saying that oaken HA should be nerfed to the ground. But the way it currently is on pts, it's still too OP. I have nothing against more people being able to do harder content, I think its great, but currently they are having fun at my expense.

As I have mentioned a couple times in this thread already, I do think Oaken HA is a pretty good thing for the overall health of the game in terms of getting players into veteran content - but even the players who swear by HA have to admit that like 90% of progression style players have picked up this build, not just because of it's "ease of access" but because the build gives substantially more benefits to players who use it compared to the players who are using LA builds and are currently at a similar skill level or even players who are slightly above them.

Let us say that the average LA build user who is progging DLC trial HMs hits anywhere between 80k-100k dps depending on sets and level of practice - and I will say that I'm probably overestimating these numbers - the exact same DPS can be provided on a build that takes 10% of the effort to hit the same numbers as you would do on a LA build, while also having significantly more resistances, 3-4k more health, 100% cleave damage, infinite sustain and all while having a rotation that consists of like 4 buttons. Unless I was trying to get runs with very high scores or trifectas in the newest trials there is literally zero reason to use anything else to complete the content as efficiently as I can on the OakenSorc.

So if progression groups are flocking to HA builds, which builds are they using? I'd hope they include:
A warden to give AoE Major/Minor Breach, and also the guaranteed Off-Balance from Birds -- or is a non-HA Brittleden taking care of all that?

A templar for the Minor spell power buff.

One or more sorcerers rotating in Dark Magic skills for the Minor crit buff.

One or more sorcerers running Twilight Matriarch for the off-heals.

Anything else, or is the rest free choice?

They don't need most of that. AFAIK HA trial runs slot mostly sorcs; there may be matriarchs in there (as opposed to tormentors) but dps off heals are only useful in trials with portals/etc where dps is isolated from healers.
Dark magic yes. Templar no; theres usually a DK tank providing minor brutality.
Warden - AOE breach isnt great from them anyways, necro is better, but not usually needed, depending on the fight. Off balance - when you have so many lightning walls down, and so many sorc pets, off balance time is going to be high anyways.

FrancisCrawford · May 2023

kringled_1 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

It matters little whether people actually hate my fun, or just want to lovingly and compassionately nerf it away.

No one hates that you have fun, but alot of people don't realize that while they're having fun they may be taking the fun away from others. For alot of players, vet trials are competitive content. And I don't mean whether your group just gets it cleared or not but competing with each other. Maybe its different for console players, I don't know, but as a PC player I always keep looking Hodors (live dps addon) and logs. For sure it's nice to clear, get good score, achievements or whatever, but most endgamers also care about their performance. I personally like to be high up on Hodors list. But since everyone and their mom has adopted oaken HA build, I'm getting out parsed by people who just few months ago were spamming bow light attacks in random dungeons doing 5k dps. Of course it makes me a little salty. I've put in alot of time and effort to farm gear, adapt to changes every patch, learned rotations and weaving and now I'm behind the players who hold down 1 button. I can't parse 130k so now my only option is to switch to oaken also. How is this healthy to the game if everyone uses the same build. Zos should rename the game to Elder HA Online or Elder Oaken Online.
I'm not trying to gatekeep here. I'm not saying that oaken HA should be nerfed to the ground. But the way it currently is on pts, it's still too OP. I have nothing against more people being able to do harder content, I think its great, but currently they are having fun at my expense.

As I have mentioned a couple times in this thread already, I do think Oaken HA is a pretty good thing for the overall health of the game in terms of getting players into veteran content - but even the players who swear by HA have to admit that like 90% of progression style players have picked up this build, not just because of it's "ease of access" but because the build gives substantially more benefits to players who use it compared to the players who are using LA builds and are currently at a similar skill level or even players who are slightly above them.

Let us say that the average LA build user who is progging DLC trial HMs hits anywhere between 80k-100k dps depending on sets and level of practice - and I will say that I'm probably overestimating these numbers - the exact same DPS can be provided on a build that takes 10% of the effort to hit the same numbers as you would do on a LA build, while also having significantly more resistances, 3-4k more health, 100% cleave damage, infinite sustain and all while having a rotation that consists of like 4 buttons. Unless I was trying to get runs with very high scores or trifectas in the newest trials there is literally zero reason to use anything else to complete the content as efficiently as I can on the OakenSorc.

So if progression groups are flocking to HA builds, which builds are they using? I'd hope they include:
A warden to give AoE Major/Minor Breach, and also the guaranteed Off-Balance from Birds -- or is a non-HA Brittleden taking care of all that?

A templar for the Minor spell power buff.

One or more sorcerers rotating in Dark Magic skills for the Minor crit buff.

One or more sorcerers running Twilight Matriarch for the off-heals.

Anything else, or is the rest free choice?

They don't need most of that. AFAIK HA trial runs slot mostly sorcs; there may be matriarchs in there (as opposed to tormentors) but dps off heals are only useful in trials with portals/etc where dps is isolated from healers.
Dark magic yes. Templar no; theres usually a DK tank providing minor brutality.
Warden - AOE breach isnt great from them anyways, necro is better, but not usually needed, depending on the fight. Off balance - when you have so many lightning walls down, and so many sorc pets, off balance time is going to be high anyways.

Pet attacks can proc Concussion? Then yeah, somebody's getting concussed a lot. Actually, a bunch of Shock glyphs could ensure that too.

FantasticFreddie · May 2023

nemesrichard wrote: »

I am a casual adult player as the majority of players in this game and who is here to have FUN after work and to treat myself I spend money on this game. As I see we have 2 options to get good dps. HA or 2 bars LA weaving. I dont enjoy LA weaving so I wont play it. If HA wont be good enough after nerf I wont play the game and go spend my money in another game.

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

Pls read through this and the other threads and drink a shot after every negative comment welcoming the nerf and telling negative comments about HA users. Friendly advice call the ambulance before it.

If you are a casual player this will not even affect you, stop being so dramatic.
And no, saying "this is too much power for the effort and needs a slight adjustment" is not hate.

Artim_X · May 2023

What I hate about all these posts from both sides is that there is barely any middle ground where a proper discussion can be had.

Heavy attack builds have existed before Oakensoul and worked just fine. No one complained about them in PvE, since they were full two bar builds that required a bit more effort to utilize than one bar iterations. Oakensoul exists and by that logic it should achieve its purpose of making a one bar build functional and it does. If someone goes the one bar route, then that's their choice. As long as they bring their A-game to the content they choose to participate in then it shouldn't matter.

The current iteration of Oakensoul's kiss balances out its curse (the original broken soul was laughably strong in both PvE and PvP). As it is now, one doesn't need to focus on typical and atypical buff management so the loss of 5 skills and a ultimate is negligible. Without buff management, one is free to focus solely on doing damage especially if they have a healer keeping them alive.

Everyone making threats to quit and saying that ZOS are doing a disservice to people with disabilities need to cut it out right now cause every single build and playstyle eventually gets nerfed in a horizontal progression based game. The nerf on the PTS to empower is the most blatant example of using a chisel that I have ever seen. Like for real, if you've been here for years, you'll know how it truly feels like to have your entire setup smacked by a hammer.

When empower was first buffed, ZOS essentially erased the Maelstrom Staff's identity as this used to in a way be the gateway to having a proper heavy attack build. Sure the staff drops on normal now, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a completely different effect. In a way this is good, since one no longer feels forced to getting this weapon and using the destruction staff's wall skill in a heavy attack build. On the other hand, empower is now a must to get back the damage heavy attack builds lost in update 35.

The above point relates to Storm Master. One might need to build more into crit for it to be decent, but in the end the up time will still be negatively impacted. My only gripe about the nerf is that there is no dev comment about the change. Either way, ZOS is probably trying to get people using heavy attack builds to mix and match different sets.

At the end of the day, this is an MMO. Everyone eventually needs to farm new stuff at some point. Thankfully smart loot, transmutation, and crafting makes ESO's gear grind a minor inconvenience.

Soarora · May 2023

Artim_X wrote: »

What I hate about all these posts from both sides is that there is barely any middle ground where a proper discussion can be had.

Heavy attack builds have existed before Oakensoul and worked just fine. No one complained about them in PvE, since they were full two bar builds that required a bit more effort to utilize than one bar iterations. Oakensoul exists and by that logic it should achieve its purpose of making a one bar build functional and it does. If someone goes the one bar route, then that's their choice. As long as they bring their A-game to the content they choose to participate in then it shouldn't matter.

THIS. I had to make my own middle ground. If someone is going to have a discussion past just giving their opinion once, they need to have an open mind. This is frustrating. And I know its a lot to read but we are at the point of repeating ourselves. I’ve started just copy and pasting my own posts…
and yeah, 2-bar HA used to be a strong niche and there were 0 issues.

Oakensoul should go back to being for 1-bar non-HA builds. That playstyle that the mythic was made for has been kicked out of their own mythic (people insisting there’s only traditional 2-bar weave and HA as options when there’s 1-bar, no weave, LA builds (different from weaving)…). Give HA their own mythic.

SaffronCitrusflower · May 2023

Most people don't hate HA builds. People just think that an HA build should not be doing as much damage as a build that uses a good rotation, and an HA build certainly shouldn't be doing more damage than a build that uses a good rotation.

If a player wants to just hold one button on their mouse down all the time, they should not be doing as much or more damage than someone who is using a rotation.

Yazrz · May 2023

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Most people don't hate HA builds. People just think that an HA build should not be doing as much damage as a build that uses a good rotation, and an HA build certainly shouldn't be doing more damage than a build that uses a good rotation.

If a player wants to just hold one button on their mouse down all the time, they should not be doing as much or more damage than someone who is using a rotation.

But why?

Why should rotation difficulty directly connect to DPS? Why can't there be different ways of playing the game with different requirements of timing, APM? Some being strict rotations, some being on demand priorities etc?

Ragnarok0130 · May 2023

Yazrz wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Most people don't hate HA builds. People just think that an HA build should not be doing as much damage as a build that uses a good rotation, and an HA build certainly shouldn't be doing more damage than a build that uses a good rotation.

If a player wants to just hold one button on their mouse down all the time, they should not be doing as much or more damage than someone who is using a rotation.

But why?

Why should rotation difficulty directly connect to DPS? Why can't there be different ways of playing the game with different requirements of timing, APM? Some being strict rotations, some being on demand priorities etc?

Because that is the dev's combat vision and they want a form of mastery for the combat: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7850463/#Comment_7850463

Spoiler
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

Liguar · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Because that is the dev's combat vision and they want a form of mastery for the combat

perhaps it's more of a rhetorical question.

They list reasons why the build is good, like seeing more players doing content. The question I'd ask is more specifically why it's a problem that they "inch too close". So many people have stated they find LA-weaving to be more fun and engaging anyway, isn't fun and engagement the point of games?

edit: messed up my quotation

Soarora · May 2023

Liguar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Because that is the dev's combat vision and they want a form of mastery for the combat

perhaps it's more of a rhetorical question.

They list reasons why the build is good, like seeing more players doing content. The question I'd ask is more specifically why it's a problem that they "inch too close". So many people have stated they find LA-weaving to be more fun and engaging anyway, isn't fun and engagement the point of games?

edit: messed up my quotation

People who like traditional builds better are still using HA builds because they feel they have to (they don’t have to, but easiest way to do hardest content mentality) and this is happening at a mass scale. I do not agree with that thought process but there’s no convincing so many people. Only way to fix this is make traditional builds better than HA.

jaws343 · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Because that is the dev's combat vision and they want a form of mastery for the combat

perhaps it's more of a rhetorical question.

They list reasons why the build is good, like seeing more players doing content. The question I'd ask is more specifically why it's a problem that they "inch too close". So many people have stated they find LA-weaving to be more fun and engaging anyway, isn't fun and engagement the point of games?

edit: messed up my quotation

People who like traditional builds better are still using HA builds because they feel they have to (they don’t have to, but easiest way to do hardest content mentality) and this is happening at a mass scale. I do not agree with that thought process but there’s no convincing so many people. Only way to fix this is make traditional builds better than HA.

I think a good way to look at it is to compare parsing to content.

Say, a two bar build can max out at 130K on a dummy parse. What is that actually in content? Probably much lower due to uptimes being different, group comp being different, following mechanics, which lowers dps and set uptimes, etc. And that 130K is also using parse food, and using zero survival skills.

Translated into trials and 4 man content, those build are going to be drastically different, and hit for far less damage. But require way more effort to maintain.

Now, take an Oakensorc build. On a dummy, that can hit 100K fairly easily. It can hit 80K without casting skills. So, take that 80K parse and apply it to actual content. Like the two bar build, buff uptimes and mechanics are going to impact damage, but, unlike the two bar build, the moment the oakensorc re-engages with a target, they are doing their max damage immediately (for the 80K, heavy attack only). So yeah, they lose out on damage by having a lower maximum DPS, but they gain a lot by being able to immediately get back to a floor level of damage right away.

Add in the zero sustain issues, ranged, and AOE damage, and it's a no brainer build for organized content.

I am all for them though, but it's pretty clear to see where two bar builds are at a disadvantage in content compared to oaken builds.

For example, my solo 2 bar build maxes out, with my skill level with weaving and sustain, at 57K or so. Plenty of DPS to clear pretty much most content outside of trifectas.

My oaken build has a DPS range of 80K-100K. 80K is the floor with me doing nothing but heavy attacks.

Those numbers are on dummy parses, but already, knowing that 2 bar build is going to drop off in DPS in actual content, the worst damage the oaken build is going to do is still 20K more damage than my solo build.

Soarora · May 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Because that is the dev's combat vision and they want a form of mastery for the combat

perhaps it's more of a rhetorical question.

They list reasons why the build is good, like seeing more players doing content. The question I'd ask is more specifically why it's a problem that they "inch too close". So many people have stated they find LA-weaving to be more fun and engaging anyway, isn't fun and engagement the point of games?

edit: messed up my quotation

People who like traditional builds better are still using HA builds because they feel they have to (they don’t have to, but easiest way to do hardest content mentality) and this is happening at a mass scale. I do not agree with that thought process but there’s no convincing so many people. Only way to fix this is make traditional builds better than HA.

I think a good way to look at it is to compare parsing to content.

Say, a two bar build can max out at 130K on a dummy parse. What is that actually in content? Probably much lower due to uptimes being different, group comp being different, following mechanics, which lowers dps and set uptimes, etc. And that 130K is also using parse food, and using zero survival skills.

Translated into trials and 4 man content, those build are going to be drastically different, and hit for far less damage. But require way more effort to maintain.

Now, take an Oakensorc build. On a dummy, that can hit 100K fairly easily. It can hit 80K without casting skills. So, take that 80K parse and apply it to actual content. Like the two bar build, buff uptimes and mechanics are going to impact damage, but, unlike the two bar build, the moment the oakensorc re-engages with a target, they are doing their max damage immediately (for the 80K, heavy attack only). So yeah, they lose out on damage by having a lower maximum DPS, but they gain a lot by being able to immediately get back to a floor level of damage right away.

Add in the zero sustain issues, ranged, and AOE damage, and it's a no brainer build for organized content.

I am all for them though, but it's pretty clear to see where two bar builds are at a disadvantage in content compared to oaken builds.

For example, my solo 2 bar build maxes out, with my skill level with weaving and sustain, at 57K or so. Plenty of DPS to clear pretty much most content outside of trifectas.

My oaken build has a DPS range of 80K-100K. 80K is the floor with me doing nothing but heavy attacks.

Those numbers are on dummy parses, but already, knowing that 2 bar build is going to drop off in DPS in actual content, the worst damage the oaken build is going to do is still 20K more damage than my solo build.

This post should be framed, perfectly explains why comparing parses shouldn’t be such a big talking point. Thank you for your contribution.

FrancisCrawford · May 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

I am a casual adult player as the majority of players in this game and who is here to have FUN after work and to treat myself I spend money on this game. As I see we have 2 options to get good dps. HA or 2 bars LA weaving. I dont enjoy LA weaving so I wont play it. If HA wont be good enough after nerf I wont play the game and go spend my money in another game.

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

Pls read through this and the other threads and drink a shot after every negative comment welcoming the nerf and telling negative comments about HA users. Friendly advice call the ambulance before it.

If you are a casual player this will not even affect you, stop being so dramatic.
And no, saying "this is too much power for the effort and needs a slight adjustment" is not hate.

A number of posters have characterized the perceived problem in ways that a "slight adjustment" would be unikely to eliminate. Rather, they fundamentally don't think HA builds should be good for endgame challenges.

Liguar · May 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

A number of posters have characterized the perceived problem in ways that a "slight adjustment" would be unikely to eliminate. Rather, they fundamentally don't think HA builds should be good for endgame challenges.

The way I see it, people are asking for HA builds in general to be squashed, even though it seems to be one really specific build that is causing the most angst.

And even though I personally despise sorc pets and think Tamriel would be better without them everywhere, I think it's laughable to say that alternative builds shouldn't exist or challenge the status quo. That's why I asked why high APM should unilaterally be the best way to play.

Sorry, but I think the above dev quote is two-faced. To say that it's great more people are in endgame content, but there's too many people getting in there and doing too well, and we don't want that. I mean, pick one. If they weren't doing well, there wouldn't be many of them at all, and the increase in people doing content would not be significant.

Rkindaleft · May 2023

Liguar wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

A number of posters have characterized the perceived problem in ways that a "slight adjustment" would be unikely to eliminate. Rather, they fundamentally don't think HA builds should be good for endgame challenges.

The way I see it, people are asking for HA builds in general to be squashed, even though it seems to be one really specific build that is causing the most angst.

And even though I personally despise sorc pets and think Tamriel would be better without them everywhere, I think it's laughable to say that alternative builds shouldn't exist or challenge the status quo. That's why I asked why high APM should unilaterally be the best way to play.

Sorry, but I think the above dev quote is two-faced. To say that it's great more people are in endgame content, but there's too many people getting in there and doing too well, and we don't want that. I mean, pick one. If they weren't doing well, there wouldn't be many of them at all, and the increase in people doing content would not be significant.

I may have a relatively biased opinion because I am an "endgame" player, but I don't think anyone is saying that alternative builds shouldn't exist, as I have said like three times in this thread now most people in the endgame agree that Oaken HA is a pretty good thing overall for accessibility, having more players dip their toes into veteran trials is only healthy for the game.

The "problem" arises when those builds that are designed for "accessibility" are suddenly dominating essentially any PvE content in the game, not just because suddenly more people are doing content who couldn't do it before but because the build translates to/operates much better in actual raid scenarios than what a LA build does in all levels of play except the very, very top.

LA builds cap out at about 130k for most classes. Hitting this DPS is -extremely- rare and reflects an extreme amount of effort and mechanical skill with quite potentially close to 100s of hours of research and practice - I play on console and can just scrape 120k on a Mag DK - yet this DPS does not realistically translate to content in 95% of situations as this is basically a single target parse with no heals or shields, with needing to slot these skills in raid/dungeon with varying uptimes on buffs and debuffs, needing to use other food, or slotting other skills for passives.

With Oakensoul HA, your DPS might be capped at about 100k but you also need to consider that it gives you plenty of other benefits. It grants access to buffs such as Minor Aegis and Minor Protection which significantly reduce your damage taken while also having significantly more resistances from wearing Heavy Armor while also having access to more health from passives and the ability to run Bi-stat food as your sustain is infinite, further increasing your survivability over a LA build. The aforementioned 2 buffs also can't be regularly sourced without giving up DPS unless you drop a DPS skill to slot them. This combined with the fact that your build is fully ranged, still does more than enough DPS to clear everything and having a rotation that essentially consists of holding down Heavy Attack and occasionally casting 2-3 other skills.

Sure, you still need to execute mechanics correctly but if all content in the game can be beaten by holding down your Heavy Attack button, then why would I use a LA build which is much harder to play in raid with similar DPS output and is way less survivable?

Yazrz · May 2023

@Rkindaleft I think there are two factors at play. The first one is that the large discrepancy between the floor and the top of LA builds seems to be a pretty bad design choice. Some scaling for properly executing a rotation makes sense, but there has to be a reasonable level. That has nothing to do with HA builds.

The second part is if "easier" builds should be able to do the same DPS as more difficult ones. And here I really do not understand why the type of rotation should not be a choice of the player. Some player likes a more complex rotation, some like reaction based e.g. utilizing proc effects, and some want a repetetive rotation. Similarly some prefer a higher APM and some prefer a low APM gameplay style. There is not one way of playing that inherently is better / more deserving etc. To have a healty community, the more ways of playing that are available the better, as more people will get into the content and enjoy it!

Liguar · May 2023

@Rkindaleft

I really do appreciate your taking the time to explain in a nice way, and I do agree that top parse potential is not representative of actual performance in trials and should not be used to argue relative build strengths. Yep, oakensoul provides a lot of buffs, selfish buffs that let people play more easily and don't always translate so well in groups. No disagreement.

In previous threads I gave my opinion that perhaps 2-bar builds using LA weaving should have the floor raised, so that more people who enjoy complex and fast-paced combat can do so. I still think that's a nice place to aim, let the people who are really gifted at complex builds be at the top if that's really important, and everyone else should be able to play builds with a pace they enjoy and be on par. There doesn't need to be huge margins for the middle of the pack.

I think absolute DPS outputs would not matter, if getting entry to a trial group was simply hitting a threshold. But if that is not the case, then pushing HA build(s) back is just going to push people out of groups. So yeah, maybe at that point I got bogged down in the perception of this being a sort of weird meritocracy where only certain people deserve to do trial content.

In the end, I just don't think any one specific way of playing should be the best (including that oakensorcs using pets should not be miles better than other HA builds) and that the community should be more open to different builds and different people getting into content. It shouldn't really matter that some people have an easier playstyle, when you're working as a group. I wish that there had been more accessible builds back when I was raiding in woW, my guild would have had a lot more people enjoying raid content.

Agree to disagree, I guess, there's clearly no consensus on what makes for a healthy and happy community. Glad I'm not the one responsible for deciding these things.

ZOS_Volpe · May 2023

Hi there,

We have removed some unnecessary back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Gnesnig · May 2023

I honestly think the Sergeant's Mail set was a bad implementation and that the goal was to give tanks some DPS for soloing, rather than overpower sorcs. And so the problem there is that the stack value is static. If it would scale off of maxiumum health, where the current value is achieved around 50-55k, the problem would already be fixed.

nemesrichard · May 2023

I read in a lot of comments that HASorc is too strong thats why nerf is good. Maybe you noticed that there are other classes too in this game. For example my Templar who really needs HA because class skills are weak. Do we care other classes than Sorc?

Soarora · May 2023

nemesrichard wrote: »

I read in a lot of comments that HASorc is too strong thats why nerf is good. Maybe you noticed that there are other classes too in this game. For example my Templar who really needs HA because class skills are weak. Do we care other classes than Sorc?

Templar is getting buffed with Necrom. There are also global skills that can be used. And I know two templars myself who are both still rather good. Templar isn’t writhing in the gutter, it doesn’t NEED HA.
But anyways Sorcerer works really well with HA because it reduces the amount of skills to use even further, buffs shock damage, and has a strong burst heal. Which is why it’s the meta for HA. HA trial teams are often 1 HA support necro and the rest HAsorc.

nemesrichard · May 2023

Soarora wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

I read in a lot of comments that HASorc is too strong thats why nerf is good. Maybe you noticed that there are other classes too in this game. For example my Templar who really needs HA because class skills are weak. Do we care other classes than Sorc?

Templar is getting buffed with Necrom. There are also global skills that can be used. And I know two templars myself who are both still rather good. Templar isn’t writhing in the gutter, it doesn’t NEED HA.
But anyways Sorcerer works really well with HA because it reduces the amount of skills to use even further, buffs shock damage, and has a strong burst heal. Which is why it’s the meta for HA. HA trial teams are often 1 HA support necro and the rest HAsorc.

As I remember Templar will get mainly defensive buffs so not really helpful. And you know 2 Templars who are rather good. (and how many Sorcerers do you know who are not rather good but very good?) Maybe that huge number of good Templars you know explain why they need buff or HA.

Shihp00 · May 2023

i dont think anyone actually "Hates" HA. That playstyles been around since vma (Orsinium) dropped l0l.

Agenericname · May 2023

nemesrichard wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

I read in a lot of comments that HASorc is too strong thats why nerf is good. Maybe you noticed that there are other classes too in this game. For example my Templar who really needs HA because class skills are weak. Do we care other classes than Sorc?

Templar is getting buffed with Necrom. There are also global skills that can be used. And I know two templars myself who are both still rather good. Templar isn’t writhing in the gutter, it doesn’t NEED HA.
But anyways Sorcerer works really well with HA because it reduces the amount of skills to use even further, buffs shock damage, and has a strong burst heal. Which is why it’s the meta for HA. HA trial teams are often 1 HA support necro and the rest HAsorc.

As I remember Templar will get mainly defensive buffs so not really helpful. And you know 2 Templars who are rather good. (and how many Sorcerers do you know who are not rather good but very good?) Maybe that huge number of good Templars you know explain why they need buff or HA.

Templars are getting 5% damage buff to class abilities when Solar Barrage is up.

Im not sure what you mean by the rest of that, but Templars are more than capable of the hardest content in the game right now. They will be stronger after the update. They dont stack up well against other classes, like DK, but not many do.