Maintenance for the week of December 23:
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
Why do some people hate HA?
-
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭nemesrichard wrote: »because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?
Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
5 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.
This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.PrincessOfThieves wrote: »My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.
You do get more wriggle room, but it's not "Zero effort" or "easy." That's my point. And yes, there should be more DPS sets that allow for more defensive builds that are still legitimate. That's not a problem with Oakensoul. After 100k, you start to hit a point of diminishing returns in damage and there should be more options to players to have more variety in builds. I would very much okay with the defensive options scaling to group size like pale order. That's a sensible nerf that doesn't remove builds from content. Far more fair than the damage nerf, IMO. Damage has to be above certain levels in order to get into content, but the survivability doesn't need to be as high as it is.
This is the only game I playerd where setup allowing to progress something few times faster is not called easy. Or atleast easier.
Easier, sure. Just to clarify, I never disputed that. I even agreed a survivability nerf would be good with me. It would reinforce these builds having to do the mechs more carefully without barring them from entry the way damage nerfs do. So, I think they should touch that instead of damage. Zero effort? EZ? For content that takes weeks???? Nope. It's not just a little effort. It's a lot of effort, not just for this game but in video games in general IMO
Currently Oakensoul gets Minor Aegis and Minor Protection. Minor Aegis would be difficult for a 2 bar build to source without giving up a set, which would be a good bit of damage.
It would be fine if they could give it the "Pale Order" treatment where being in a group diminished the tankiness while leaving it alone for solo play. I would imagine that it would take a unique buff to make that happen vs 2 minor buffs. Its effectively 10% damage reduction. Make 1 unique buff that reduces in groups.
The damage of the mythic is still high, but rather than nerf every heavy attack build out there, maybe just remove Minor Slayer (that can be sourced with a HA set). In the current patch Minor Courage can give them an advantage over 2 bar builds as well. In 4 person content since the ring already gives Minor Courage the tank can drop Yol and pick up any other set with a group damage buff and effectively that group will have three buffs where a traditional 2 bar group would have 2. In the next patch that will be less of an issue because of the Arcanist class, so I would say just leave that as is.
They could also just leave it alone as well.2 -
Katlefiya✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Currently Oakensoul gets Minor Aegis and Minor Protection. Minor Aegis would be difficult for a 2 bar build to source without giving up a set, which would be a good bit of damage.
Using Oakensoul forces you to give up a set, too.Agenericname wrote: »They could also just leave it alone as well.
Agreed.5 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Currently Oakensoul gets Minor Aegis and Minor Protection. Minor Aegis would be difficult for a 2 bar build to source without giving up a set, which would be a good bit of damage.
Using Oakensoul forces you to give up a set, too.Agenericname wrote: »They could also just leave it alone as well.
Agreed.
Oaksensould prevents you from using a monster set, you arent putting on a supprt set to get Minor Aegis. Its a buff that a 2 bar build cant reasonably source for themselves.4 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.
You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.
Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.
Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.
Hard to follow what you mean. But my point is negativity is an issue in this game. Bullying / elitism and to put in in the words of my 7 year old niece “you big meanie”. It’s just not nice behavior from player to player. The elder scrolls series is a nerdy fantasy series (and I hold that nerd badge with pride ) it’s not an esport. I feel like these esport types are making this game aggressive and removing the fantasy / role play / questing / elder scrolls feeel. It really reminds me of being the 5 foot kid in gym class and having the big jock throw the dodge ball in my face and call
Me certain slurs I can’t say here.
It comes off so negative / bullying and not inclusive.
We live in a society now where people have fought so hard for diversity and inclusion and for some reason it just isn’t happening in video games… at least online ones. And I think this is the reason why Skyrim or other elder scrolls players are hesitant to try this came out.
People absolutely should not be bullied. What I'm saying is that really my whole problem with HA has nothing to do with most HA players it's the endgamers I'm surrounded by. They're constantly complaining about how the build is easy and constantly trying to optimize it to get it to complete all content and it's not possible to avoid. I can't just "go play with people who align with your values", it's several guilds. It's almost everyone I know. (Edit: and zone chat! I JUST saw someone look for an oakensoul DPS for something that an oakensoul DPS is not "required" for...!!) I wish I was in a guild that excluded HAs not because of excluding people like you but to exclude endgamers who are putting themselves in a land of oakensorc-ha-with-this-one-build-only and then proceeding to complain about it. It's too much negativity on my side of the argument too. If endgamers weren't complaining about HAs and excluding traditional builds literally everywhere I look, I wouldn't care what HAs are capable of.
For me it’s the opposite I got laughed out of a dungeon and called terrible and awful for my low cp and HA build. So it must have to do with end gamers. But I’ll never be one if I’m never allowed to progress and get kicked out for my play style so.
You’re going to have to bring the receipts on this one- something like screenshots. End gamers are generally some of the most helpful and kind people I’ve met in 9 years of playing ESO and are people who actually mentor new [snip] players like yourself, so how do you know they are end gamers? [snip]
End gamers don’t care about your CP or build as long as you do your role, follow the mechs, and bring good damage as a DPS. Hearing the various iterations of this tale makes me think you queued for a vet dungeon that you weren’t ready for and didn’t know the mechs for and ended up on the floor repeatedly. Being kicked once does not indicate a community wide problem, perhaps the issue was with with your performance?
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on May 2, 2023 4:54PM4 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[snip]
The only toxicity I’m seeing here is from the pro-HA crowd [snip] at the thought that they should be subject to the same nerf/buff cycle that the rest of us are. It’s even more asinine when one sees its a 5% adjustment with minimal effect instead of the 20-30% global nerf like U35.
[snip]
Normal end game players dislike nerfs but still adjust and continue to refine our builds as we find better post patch build tweaks. These HA players are acting like any adjustment to their build by ZoS will permanently lock then out of the end game content that they just got into. It’s a panic instead of an understanding that within one week of the patch going live Skinnycheeks, HTM, Deltia, and Nefas will all have newly adjusted builds for HA players reclaiming much of their lost power.
[removed quote and edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on May 2, 2023 5:18PM14 -
TKo_ROUSE✭✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.
You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.
Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.
Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.
Hard to follow what you mean. But my point is negativity is an issue in this game. Bullying / elitism and to put in in the words of my 7 year old niece “you big meanie”. It’s just not nice behavior from player to player. The elder scrolls series is a nerdy fantasy series (and I hold that nerd badge with pride ) it’s not an esport. I feel like these esport types are making this game aggressive and removing the fantasy / role play / questing / elder scrolls feeel. It really reminds me of being the 5 foot kid in gym class and having the big jock throw the dodge ball in my face and call
Me certain slurs I can’t say here.
It comes off so negative / bullying and not inclusive.
We live in a society now where people have fought so hard for diversity and inclusion and for some reason it just isn’t happening in video games… at least online ones. And I think this is the reason why Skyrim or other elder scrolls players are hesitant to try this came out.
People absolutely should not be bullied. What I'm saying is that really my whole problem with HA has nothing to do with most HA players it's the endgamers I'm surrounded by. They're constantly complaining about how the build is easy and constantly trying to optimize it to get it to complete all content and it's not possible to avoid. I can't just "go play with people who align with your values", it's several guilds. It's almost everyone I know. (Edit: and zone chat! I JUST saw someone look for an oakensoul DPS for something that an oakensoul DPS is not "required" for...!!) I wish I was in a guild that excluded HAs not because of excluding people like you but to exclude endgamers who are putting themselves in a land of oakensorc-ha-with-this-one-build-only and then proceeding to complain about it. It's too much negativity on my side of the argument too. If endgamers weren't complaining about HAs and excluding traditional builds literally everywhere I look, I wouldn't care what HAs are capable of.
For me it’s the opposite I got laughed out of a dungeon and called terrible and awful for my low cp and HA build. So it must have to do with end gamers. But I’ll never be one if I’m never allowed to progress and get kicked out for my play style so.
[snip]
I notice a trend of him and a couple others doing that. They are the same couple people who are blowing up all these forum posts about HA builds. If you look close you will see the same 5-10 names driving most these posts making the same bad arguments and ignoring people providing honest examples. Honestly its got to be one of two things:
1. They had a bad experience or two that they are massively blowing out of proportion. Like come on man of course people shouldn't be mean to you but it happens both in IRL and on game. Brush it off and move on. Ignore the player and report them. I have done likely close to a 1000 rnd's in my time. I have been kicked exactly once. Honestly no real good reason. We said hi at the beginning, i melted the first boss doing 90% damage and i got kicked. Maybe they felt i made the dungeon go to fast or maybe they just wanted to troll a random player. But I didn't put much thought into it. In my 100s of dungeons i have seen a toxic players maybe 10 times that post *** things in chat or try to troll a run. 99.9% of the time people just say hi, get the dungeon done and move on.
2. They are just looking for ammo to use against the nerf, as a player being mean to them for using a heavy attack build should be a reason to not nerf it. So they make it look like this big issue that happens all the time but in reality we know it does not.
I think you are absolutely correct though that it was likely due to performance or spam dying (being a deadweight to the team) that got the player kicked and not so much to do with HA. Personally I almost exclusively run vet dungeons in discord these days as I like to know when I am tanking i have 3 competent dps. But I would never kick someone in a vet dungeon doing at least 30k dps which is insanely easy on oakensoul heavy attack build. Might not attempt certain hard modes with them but any vet content is easily fine.
[edited quote]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on May 2, 2023 5:34PM13 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭I see people quoting a ~130k 2Bar DPS parse as something their ~95k 1Bar HA parse is to be compared to, illustrating that the HA build is inferior.
What I'd like to see is a 2H parse with the same ~30k health and 20-oddk resistances still parse 130k and then we can talk about HA being underpowered.
The game doesn't let you parse 130k and still have lots of health and resistances. They're not called Glass Cannons without reason so if anyone has a build that can do the high numbers quoted here, while still having high health and resistances I'd love to see it.8 -
FelixTheCatt✭✭✭I’m a daily regular and I have never seen anyone hating on HA. Did I miss something? 😆Xbox - Kuchini07
Eso - FaCoffinDye (EP)3 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
yes. with chronic pain and possible arthritis that is pretty painful.Edited by LunaFlora on May 2, 2023 6:44PMmiaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.4 -
Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »Other threads explain very well the more nuanced reasons why some people have concerns with Oakensoul builds and advocate for balancing changes. But that's not hate and most players won't have an issue with you in their group as long as you (more or less) pull your weight. Why focus on those few that are toxic even though you contribute?
Very good point. But...when something is overpowered it is bound to become the norm. Already you see people asking specifically for HA sorcs in their groups, even for random normals. So it leaves other builds, like the entire stamina DPS in the shadows and unfavored.
That’s funny because I’ve been vote kicked for being a HA player even when I was doing the most damage.
I would very much like to see proof of this happening to someone, because I've been running a HA Oakensorc in all kinds of group content for months and never once been kicked, scolded, insulted or even questioned because of my build. Then again, I wait for the tank to grab aggro, try to pay attention to mechanics, and stay out of stupid and avoid dying most of the time. The one time I was griped at (and rightly so) was when I tried fake tanking a RND and got LoM, where that first boss is very unforgiving to fake tanks. Other than that one time I always try pull my own weight and do my best to make sure I don't negatively impact the other group members' play. Maybe some HA players get booted for reasons other than their build.6 -
TKo_ROUSE✭✭✭✭because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
yes. with chronic pain and possible arthritis that is pretty painful.
I am not sure if you are referencing yourself or someone else. I do feel terrible for people who suffer chronic pain. My mother still suffers from her work over 20 years in the post office.
[snip]
ESO offers varying levels of difficulty for players of all skill levels. If someone really struggles with CPM due to chronic pain they can still easily utilize normal difficulty and a low apm style such as a heavy attack build. You can literally enjoy all aspects of the game. The only thing you might not have is perfected gear, titles, a couple mounts and some cosmetics. Normal is likely made for people with disabilities in mind.
Not everyone needs to be able to complete veteran and hard mode content. Some people never will and that's fine. It is part of the challenge that keeps certain players coming back to the game. Accessibility does not have to reach this far.
Let me tie this into real life. We like to go disc golf. My parents sometimes come with my sister and I. We all play at different levels. My sister is rated in the 850's which is pretty high for female players. I suck and never have competed in a tournament but do take playing seriously. My parents throw the frisbee's for fun and do not care how well they do. My sister wipes the floor with me usually. I try to beat her and almost never do unless she is having a really bad day. Do I care, nope she puts in the effort to be a very good player. Sometimes my mom gives up half way through as her wrists or hands are bothering her. Does she want anything changed because of that? Nope, she is just happy to come out and have fun. That is what normal provides everyone.
[edited for minor baiting]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on May 2, 2023 9:26PM9 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
im referring to myself and i can play the game just fine by using a heavy attack build and not doing dungeons every time i play. [snip]. oakensoul made it possible for me to occasionally complete vateshran arena, why shouldn't i be allowed to complete harder content that's made more accessible with certain sets in eso?
do you think i shouldn't be able to do more than just normal because one playstyle hurts and another that makes it easier hurts less?
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on May 2, 2023 9:27PMmiaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.8 -
OsUfi✭✭✭✭✭
✭[snip]
Honestly... Maybe?
Veteran content, by its name alone, is for the best players. Something I will never be. I'm cool with that. As far as I know there's nothing in vet mode that isn't in normal mode except cosmetics and perfected gear. Neither of which is necessary. You'll also still be able to do vet dungeons with HA. Monster sets will still be accessible.
Seriously, folks like you and I will still be able to wreck everything with heavy attacks even after the minor nerf were getting.
As for trifecta titles... I mean... Are they achievements or participation trophy's? I'll never get those titles, and I certainly don't want them handed to me on a plate.
[removed quotes as most have been edited]
Edited by ZOS_Kraken on May 2, 2023 9:28PM8 -
TKo_ROUSE✭✭✭✭[snip]
Do you not read your own comment? You literally just said clicking a button every 2 seconds is painful? How do you play this game without clicking a button every 2 seconds? Should they just set a bot that plays the game for you? Pain for clicking every 2 seconds is not something ZoS can reasonably address
Did you not read my comment? Where did i say HA should go away? I just said normal is available if you struggle due to pain.
No one is stopping you from playing vet. People have been clearing vet arena's with one bar HA builds long before oakensoul. So what is stopping you? Learn the mechanics and do it. How is that gatekeeping? Seems the only one stopping you from trying is yourself.
For reference: the DPS of oakensoul can literally do all content except maybe the time for SBS and PB after this nerf. It is targetted at high end trial groups. You should be using something like noble duelist for solo or small group play.
[removed quote as most have been edited]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on May 2, 2023 9:29PM4 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
yes. with chronic pain and possible arthritis that is pretty painful.
I am not sure if you are referencing yourself or someone else. I do feel terrible for people who suffer chronic pain. My mother still suffers from her work over 20 years in the post office. Don't take this the wrong way though.
But if chronic pain is that bad that clicking a button every 2 seconds is too much. Then maybe gaming isn't the best option. Honestly what can zos do about someone in that much pain. You can't realistically expect them to accommodate something like that. If that is an over exaggeration and you just means it gets painful after some time of too much clicking I would advise maybe exploring into ergonomic keyboard and mouse or controller to see if that helps. I broke my hand and wrist falling at work. Coming back I had a tough time but I found a mouse that worked well for me and lets me play much longer. I honestly can't even use a controller any more. My hand will be in terrible pain within an hour.
Now my counter point. ESO offers varying levels of difficulty for players of all skill levels. If someone really struggles with CPM due to chronic pain they can still easily utilize normal difficulty and a low apm style such as a heavy attack build. You can literally enjoy all aspects of the game. The only thing you might not have is perfected gear, titles, a couple mounts and some cosmetics. Normal is likely made for people with disabilities in mind.
Not everyone needs to be able to complete veteran and hard mode content. Some people never will and that's fine. It is part of the challenge that keeps certain players coming back to the game. Accessibility does not have to reach this far.
Let me tie this into real life. We like to go disc golf. My parents sometimes come with my sister and I. We all play at different levels. My sister is rated in the 850's which is pretty high for female players. I suck and never have competed in a tournament but do take playing seriously. My parents throw the frisbee's for fun and do not care how well they do. My sister wipes the floor with me usually. I try to beat her and almost never do unless she is having a really bad day. Do I care, nope she puts in the effort to be a very good player. Sometimes my mom gives up half way through as her wrists or hands are bothering her. Does she want anything changed because of that? Nope, she is just happy to come out and have fun. That is what normal provides everyone.
do you think i shouldn't be able to do more than just normal because one playstyle hurts and another that makes it easier hurts less?
you seem like just another gatekeeper to me
Honestly... Maybe?
Veteran content, by its name alone, is for the best players. Something I will never be. I'm cool with that. As far as I know there's nothing in vet mode that isn't in normal mode except cosmetics and perfected gear. Neither of which is necessary. You'll also still be able to do vet dungeons with HA. Monster sets will still be accessible.
Seriously, folks like you and I will still be able to wreck everything with heavy attacks even after the minor nerf were getting.
As for trifecta titles... I mean... Are they achievements or participation trophy's? I'll never get those titles, and I certainly don't want them handed to me on a plate.
i don't care about getting all the titles and titles nor achievements get handed to you on a plate. you don't win everything the second you step into a dungeon or trial with oakensoul equipped.
it sucks that i can join a trial as a healer and it's fine but on a damage build it's inaccessible to me.
i can't wreck everything. i never told you i can so i don't get why you say "you and i".
miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.2 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
yes. with chronic pain and possible arthritis that is pretty painful.
I am not sure if you are referencing yourself or someone else. I do feel terrible for people who suffer chronic pain. My mother still suffers from her work over 20 years in the post office. Don't take this the wrong way though.
But if chronic pain is that bad that clicking a button every 2 seconds is too much. Then maybe gaming isn't the best option. Honestly what can zos do about someone in that much pain. You can't realistically expect them to accommodate something like that. If that is an over exaggeration and you just means it gets painful after some time of too much clicking I would advise maybe exploring into ergonomic keyboard and mouse or controller to see if that helps. I broke my hand and wrist falling at work. Coming back I had a tough time but I found a mouse that worked well for me and lets me play much longer. I honestly can't even use a controller any more. My hand will be in terrible pain within an hour.
Now my counter point. ESO offers varying levels of difficulty for players of all skill levels. If someone really struggles with CPM due to chronic pain they can still easily utilize normal difficulty and a low apm style such as a heavy attack build. You can literally enjoy all aspects of the game. The only thing you might not have is perfected gear, titles, a couple mounts and some cosmetics. Normal is likely made for people with disabilities in mind.
Not everyone needs to be able to complete veteran and hard mode content. Some people never will and that's fine. It is part of the challenge that keeps certain players coming back to the game. Accessibility does not have to reach this far.
Let me tie this into real life. We like to go disc golf. My parents sometimes come with my sister and I. We all play at different levels. My sister is rated in the 850's which is pretty high for female players. I suck and never have competed in a tournament but do take playing seriously. My parents throw the frisbee's for fun and do not care how well they do. My sister wipes the floor with me usually. I try to beat her and almost never do unless she is having a really bad day. Do I care, nope she puts in the effort to be a very good player. Sometimes my mom gives up half way through as her wrists or hands are bothering her. Does she want anything changed because of that? Nope, she is just happy to come out and have fun. That is what normal provides everyone.
im referring to myself and i can play the game just fine by using a heavy attack build and not doing dungeons every time i play. your comment is pretty unnecessary. oakensoul made it possible for me to occasionally complete vateshran arena, why shouldn't i be allowed to complete harder content that's made more accessible with certain sets in eso?
do you think i shouldn't be able to do more than just normal because one playstyle hurts and another that makes it easier hurts less?
you seem like just another gatekeeper to me
Do you not read your own comment? You literally just said clicking a button every 2 seconds is painful? How do you play this game without clicking a button every 2 seconds? Should they just set a bot that plays the game for you? Pain for clicking every 2 seconds is not something ZoS can reasonably address
Did you not read my comment? Where did i say HA should go away? I just said normal is available if you struggle due to pain.
No one is stopping you from playing vet. People have been clearing vet arena's with one bar HA builds long before oakensoul. So what is stopping you? Learn the mechanics and do it. How is that gatekeeping? Seems the only one stopping you from trying is yourself.
For reference: the DPS of oakensoul can literally do all content except maybe the time for SBS and PB after this nerf. It is targetted at high end trial groups. You should be using something like noble duelist for solo or small group play.
normal is fine when it isn't boring. veteran tends to be a little more challenging or too challenging. i struggle with light attack weaving which is what my very first comment was about.
i do learn the mechanics that with oakensoul and heavy attacks is how i've been able to do solo content.
i don't know what sbs or pb is i can't mindread.
miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.2 -
OsUfi✭✭✭✭✭
✭because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
yes. with chronic pain and possible arthritis that is pretty painful.
I am not sure if you are referencing yourself or someone else. I do feel terrible for people who suffer chronic pain. My mother still suffers from her work over 20 years in the post office. Don't take this the wrong way though.
But if chronic pain is that bad that clicking a button every 2 seconds is too much. Then maybe gaming isn't the best option. Honestly what can zos do about someone in that much pain. You can't realistically expect them to accommodate something like that. If that is an over exaggeration and you just means it gets painful after some time of too much clicking I would advise maybe exploring into ergonomic keyboard and mouse or controller to see if that helps. I broke my hand and wrist falling at work. Coming back I had a tough time but I found a mouse that worked well for me and lets me play much longer. I honestly can't even use a controller any more. My hand will be in terrible pain within an hour.
Now my counter point. ESO offers varying levels of difficulty for players of all skill levels. If someone really struggles with CPM due to chronic pain they can still easily utilize normal difficulty and a low apm style such as a heavy attack build. You can literally enjoy all aspects of the game. The only thing you might not have is perfected gear, titles, a couple mounts and some cosmetics. Normal is likely made for people with disabilities in mind.
Not everyone needs to be able to complete veteran and hard mode content. Some people never will and that's fine. It is part of the challenge that keeps certain players coming back to the game. Accessibility does not have to reach this far.
Let me tie this into real life. We like to go disc golf. My parents sometimes come with my sister and I. We all play at different levels. My sister is rated in the 850's which is pretty high for female players. I suck and never have competed in a tournament but do take playing seriously. My parents throw the frisbee's for fun and do not care how well they do. My sister wipes the floor with me usually. I try to beat her and almost never do unless she is having a really bad day. Do I care, nope she puts in the effort to be a very good player. Sometimes my mom gives up half way through as her wrists or hands are bothering her. Does she want anything changed because of that? Nope, she is just happy to come out and have fun. That is what normal provides everyone.
do you think i shouldn't be able to do more than just normal because one playstyle hurts and another that makes it easier hurts less?
you seem like just another gatekeeper to me
Honestly... Maybe?
Veteran content, by its name alone, is for the best players. Something I will never be. I'm cool with that. As far as I know there's nothing in vet mode that isn't in normal mode except cosmetics and perfected gear. Neither of which is necessary. You'll also still be able to do vet dungeons with HA. Monster sets will still be accessible.
Seriously, folks like you and I will still be able to wreck everything with heavy attacks even after the minor nerf were getting.
As for trifecta titles... I mean... Are they achievements or participation trophy's? I'll never get those titles, and I certainly don't want them handed to me on a plate.
i don't care about getting all the titles and titles nor achievements get handed to you on a plate. you don't win everything the second you step into a dungeon or trial with oakensoul equipped.
Then what are you being gatekept from?it sucks that i can join a trial as a healer and it's fine but on a damage build it's inaccessible to me.
Wearing a mix of purple and blue gear, you'll still be able to kill everything in trials holding down left mouse button. Unless you're unable to hold down a mouse button. In which case, I'm sure there's an app or program that'd allow you to click once to hold down a mouse button. If we're talking vet mode, you'll still be able to keep damage up with a good team of buffers.i can't wreck everything. i never told you i can so i don't get why you say "you and i".
HA can wreck everything. Even group bosses solo. I believe you can because I can. You and I. The people who can't do vet content for reasons.
I have killed countless enemies, mobs, and even vet 4 man dungeons on my necro by holding down my left mouse button. Hell, I do it wearing Sargent and Maras Balm with 32 Mag and 32 health because I'm slow as heck and can't dodge easily. I'll still be able to wreck everything after this update.2 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.
You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.
Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.
Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.
Hard to follow what you mean. But my point is negativity is an issue in this game. Bullying / elitism and to put in in the words of my 7 year old niece “you big meanie”. It’s just not nice behavior from player to player. The elder scrolls series is a nerdy fantasy series (and I hold that nerd badge with pride ) it’s not an esport. I feel like these esport types are making this game aggressive and removing the fantasy / role play / questing / elder scrolls feeel. It really reminds me of being the 5 foot kid in gym class and having the big jock throw the dodge ball in my face and call
Me certain slurs I can’t say here.
It comes off so negative / bullying and not inclusive.
We live in a society now where people have fought so hard for diversity and inclusion and for some reason it just isn’t happening in video games… at least online ones. And I think this is the reason why Skyrim or other elder scrolls players are hesitant to try this came out.
People absolutely should not be bullied. What I'm saying is that really my whole problem with HA has nothing to do with most HA players it's the endgamers I'm surrounded by. They're constantly complaining about how the build is easy and constantly trying to optimize it to get it to complete all content and it's not possible to avoid. I can't just "go play with people who align with your values", it's several guilds. It's almost everyone I know. (Edit: and zone chat! I JUST saw someone look for an oakensoul DPS for something that an oakensoul DPS is not "required" for...!!) I wish I was in a guild that excluded HAs not because of excluding people like you but to exclude endgamers who are putting themselves in a land of oakensorc-ha-with-this-one-build-only and then proceeding to complain about it. It's too much negativity on my side of the argument too. If endgamers weren't complaining about HAs and excluding traditional builds literally everywhere I look, I wouldn't care what HAs are capable of.
For me it’s the opposite I got laughed out of a dungeon and called terrible and awful for my low cp and HA build. So it must have to do with end gamers. But I’ll never be one if I’m never allowed to progress and get kicked out for my play style so.
[snip]
I notice a trend of him and a couple others doing that. They are the same couple people who are blowing up all these forum posts about HA builds. If you look close you will see the same 5-10 names driving most these posts making the same bad arguments and ignoring people providing honest examples. Honestly its got to be one of two things:
1. They had a bad experience or two that they are massively blowing out of proportion. Like come on man of course people shouldn't be mean to you but it happens both in IRL and on game. Brush it off and move on. Ignore the player and report them. I have done likely close to a 1000 rnd's in my time. I have been kicked exactly once. Honestly no real good reason. We said hi at the beginning, i melted the first boss doing 90% damage and i got kicked. Maybe they felt i made the dungeon go to fast or maybe they just wanted to troll a random player. But I didn't put much thought into it. In my 100s of dungeons i have seen a toxic players maybe 10 times that post *** things in chat or try to troll a run. 99.9% of the time people just say hi, get the dungeon done and move on.
2. They are just looking for ammo to use against the nerf, as a player being mean to them for using a heavy attack build should be a reason to not nerf it. So they make it look like this big issue that happens all the time but in reality we know it does not.
I think you are absolutely correct though that it was likely due to performance or spam dying (being a deadweight to the team) that got the player kicked and not so much to do with HA. Personally I almost exclusively run vet dungeons in discord these days as I like to know when I am tanking i have 3 competent dps. But I would never kick someone in a vet dungeon doing at least 30k dps which is insanely easy on oakensoul heavy attack build. Might not attempt certain hard modes with them but any vet content is easily fine.
[edited quote]
I have to agree. I made a HA Sorc on Saturday out of my sorc healer and have run dungeons and trials on it testing this "kicking or forbidding HA builds from group content conspiracy theory" that's being repeated ad nauseam by certain people here, and I have not been kicked one time nor has anyone commented on the build or my performance using that build in a negative way. Claims about HA builds being run out of dungeons and other group content with pitchforks and torches need to be verifiable and repeatable and I'm not seeing either in my personal testing. Craglorn during prime time has so many Sorcs that it looks like an aviary so I don't think the players running them are hearing that they're not welcome in group content either. Every time I PUG a trial the first pull looks like Zeus himself is calling down the thunder with all of the lightning staves firing off at the enemies making me question the veracity of the kicking claims.11 -
ZOS_KrakenadminHello,
I have edited some quotes and posts for baiting. Please remember that while it is ok post your opinions, please be mindful of other people and keep the conversation civil and on topic.
Zos_Kraken3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ishtarknows wrote: »I see people quoting a ~130k 2Bar DPS parse as something their ~95k 1Bar HA parse is to be compared to, illustrating that the HA build is inferior.
What I'd like to see is a 2H parse with the same ~30k health and 20-oddk resistances still parse 130k and then we can talk about HA being underpowered
But it's getting a damage nerf, not a survivability nerf. Survivability would be a much more reasonable nerf imo. A damage nerf is gonna remove some people from content entirely because they no longer meet damage thresholds for groups, it's already way less damage than a 2 bar's cap. A survivability nerf just makes people play mechs more carefully.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 2, 2023 10:13PM1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭nemesrichard wrote: »because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?
Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.
"Slow" as long as you do 2 clicks/second, correct?3 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »nemesrichard wrote: »because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?
Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.
"Slow" as long as you do 2 clicks/second, correct?
No? I said "at any pace" and I meant it. You can weave at an hour scale. I wouldn't suggest it, but it is still weaving. In fact, not everyone picks up weaving at full speed, often slowing down to learn the timing since it differs between skills. I mean really you could even use LA sets like relequen as long as you LA once per 4 seconds (set stays up for 5). So one can use a traditional build at a 4x slower pace and still use the same sets. DPS will go down because... damage per SECOND but you can do it and there's no shame in going a little slower... or choosing not to weave at all.
The definition of weaving is doing a skill and then a light attack or a light attack and then a skill. The goal is to do it in the same global cooldown but that's not the definition.Edited by Soarora on May 2, 2023 11:11PMPC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
2 -
RodneyRegis✭✭✭✭✭I've seen other players take months to get things like IR. Now people are getting those same achievements through sheer cheese. I'm not surprised it causes some annoyance. Achievements like that are completely meaningless now. vMA is an absolute triviality. Of course, there has been power-creep from day one in the game, and plenty of other overpowered builds, but this has completely turned the game upside down.7 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »nemesrichard wrote: »because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?
Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.
"Slow" as long as you do 2 clicks/second, correct?
No? I said "at any pace" and I meant it. You can weave at an hour scale. I wouldn't suggest it, but it is still weaving. In fact, not everyone picks up weaving at full speed, often slowing down to learn the timing since it differs between skills. I mean really you could even use LA sets like relequen as long as you LA once per 4 seconds (set stays up for 5). So one can use a traditional build at a 4x slower pace and still use the same sets. DPS will go down because... damage per SECOND but you can do it and there's no shame in going a little slower... or choosing not to weave at all.
The definition of weaving is doing a skill and then a light attack or a light attack and then a skill. The goal is to do it in the same global cooldown but that's not the definition.
Right. And I could play the game only hitting a skill every 10 seconds. But there would be no point in doing so.
Initial practice aside, there is no point in weaving light attacks unless you're do so quickly enough to benefit your DPS or other combat effects.Edited by FrancisCrawford on May 2, 2023 11:18PM0 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have a good answer to the topic question:
Have you ever played dungeons and dragons, and someone else at your table plays a character that does exactly what your character does? Even if they're not doing as much damage or aren't as helpful, it can still feel like they're stepping on your toes. That's what it seems like when people want to nerf or remove HA builds.
It's different in that scenario though, since at a table like that your only course of action is to talk to your DM or the other player. Here, you can just not interact with HA because it can't really hurt you. But people still feel like it's hurting them even if it isn't.Edited by merpins on May 2, 2023 11:18PM1 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »nemesrichard wrote: »because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen
Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?
I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?
Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.
"Slow" as long as you do 2 clicks/second, correct?
No? I said "at any pace" and I meant it. You can weave at an hour scale. I wouldn't suggest it, but it is still weaving. In fact, not everyone picks up weaving at full speed, often slowing down to learn the timing since it differs between skills. I mean really you could even use LA sets like relequen as long as you LA once per 4 seconds (set stays up for 5). So one can use a traditional build at a 4x slower pace and still use the same sets. DPS will go down because... damage per SECOND but you can do it and there's no shame in going a little slower... or choosing not to weave at all.
The definition of weaving is doing a skill and then a light attack or a light attack and then a skill. The goal is to do it in the same global cooldown but that's not the definition.
Right. And I could play the game only hitting a skill every 10 seconds. But there would be no point in doing so.
Initial practice aside, also is no point in weaving light attacks unless you're do so quickly enough to benefit your DPS or other combat effects.
While that is true, I highly doubt the minimum time for it to be useful is one second. Besides, one can not weave or weave poorly or even just weave one skill... without using a HA build. Don't tell anyone but my weaving in content gets questionable, yet my DPS does not suffer much from that. ZOS has been trying to make quick weaving more of an optional thing by lowering the damage of light attacks... it's not heavy attack or nothing.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
1 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I have a good answer to the topic question:
Have you ever played dungeons and dragons, and someone else at your table plays a character that does exactly what your character does? Even if they're not doing as much damage or aren't as helpful, it can still feel like they're stepping on your toes. That's what it seems like when people want to nerf or remove HA builds.
It's different in that scenario though, since at a table like that your only course of action is to talk to your DM or the other player. Here, you can just not interact with HA because it can't really hurt you. But people still feel like it's hurting them even if it isn't.
It isn't that simple whatsoever. I am unavoidably surrounded by it. I will never be able to do vAS as a DPS until oakenHA isn't the meta in there anymore. I have to mute so many conversations and avoid so many runs. I wish it was that easy, I really do.
Note: I don't care that people are using HA in pugs I care that I can't catch a break from it at all unless I completely remove myself from any social interaction.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
2 -
Eliran✭✭✭✭✭Because its working too little for too much.
Every other build have to work 10 times harder to achieve the same result, how is that fair? that's right, its not.
It makes even healers useless.
I know from vCA Trifecta for example, many people got it so easily, they can literally walk off the mines on second boss HM and survive, if I just touch it I am dead - no skill.
So yea people who get those achievements with HA Sorc simply don't deserve them and its not fair toward me that I had to work so hard and they get it for free and think themselves equal.
Ego? sure call ego, doesn't change the fact its true.10 -
RodneyRegis✭✭✭✭✭It's not 10x harder to do the same content with a 2 bar build. It's way more than that.
I have a vMA 1 bar build which uses no skills. I'm down to 3 deaths without sigils, going for another flawless with it. Not a single skill fired in the entire arena. OK I'm gated behind end-game mechanics such as the odd roll dodge to avoid taking aim, which is maybe a bit unfair of ZOS to expect of me, along with respawning pets now and again. But luckily no synergies or potions required, and I didn't need to bother with good traits or gold gear, so there's that. I'm wondering now if I could put on walk and autorun and kite everything to avoid needing to actually direct my character with keys.
I should think I could get my 8 year old daughter to hit 80k on a dummy in an afternoon, if I could get her to concentrate long enough.
But sure, it's not THAT easy.6