Why do some people hate HA?

mochizx

Eliran wrote: »

Because its working too little for too much.

Every other build have to work 10 times harder to achieve the same result, how is that fair? that's right, its not.

It makes even healers useless.

I know from vCA Trifecta for example, many people got it so easily, they can literally walk off the mines on second boss HM and survive, if I just touch it I am dead - no skill.

So yea people who get those achievements with HA Sorc simply don't deserve them and its not fair toward me that I had to work so hard and they get it for free and think themselves equal.

Ego? sure call ego, doesn't change the fact its true.

Sounds like a skill issue to me, it is u who decide to go with a glass cannon 2 bar dps build and not very good at avoiding stepping on mines or ur support just simply doesn't provide enough resistance/healing buff to you to help mitigate the dmg. Sure u can keep flaming on HA build users being 'carried' to tri, but that doesn't change the fact that u need to improve ur situational awareness especially when letting ur ego goes beyond ur skill level. And yes, this is from a player who got CA tri on launch, I don't have any issue with HA sorc players getting CA tri since it's already a year old 4 person content LUL.

FrancisCrawford

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen

Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?

I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?

Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.

"Slow" as long as you do 2 clicks/second, correct?

No? I said "at any pace" and I meant it. You can weave at an hour scale. I wouldn't suggest it, but it is still weaving. In fact, not everyone picks up weaving at full speed, often slowing down to learn the timing since it differs between skills. I mean really you could even use LA sets like relequen as long as you LA once per 4 seconds (set stays up for 5). So one can use a traditional build at a 4x slower pace and still use the same sets. DPS will go down because... damage per SECOND but you can do it and there's no shame in going a little slower... or choosing not to weave at all.

The definition of weaving is doing a skill and then a light attack or a light attack and then a skill. The goal is to do it in the same global cooldown but that's not the definition.

Right. And I could play the game only hitting a skill every 10 seconds. But there would be no point in doing so.

Initial practice aside, also is no point in weaving light attacks unless you're do so quickly enough to benefit your DPS or other combat effects.

While that is true, I highly doubt the minimum time for it to be useful is one second. Besides, one can not weave or weave poorly or even just weave one skill... without using a HA build. Don't tell anyone but my weaving in content gets questionable, yet my DPS does not suffer much from that. ZOS has been trying to make quick weaving more of an optional thing by lowering the damage of light attacks... it's not heavy attack or nothing.

I suspect that, unless one's skilled at weaving, one just shouldn't bother (except perhaps when needing to proc something in particular).

E.g., I'll do a parse, note with disgust how few light attacks there were, increase the number of light attacks on the next try -- and get a lower DPS number. So I suspect I'm not firing skills quickly enough -- a theory supported by my low rate of magicka consumption -- and that "better" weaving exacerbates the problem.

Rkindaleft

I do think that HA builds are a pretty healthy thing overall for accessibility however OakenSorc HA is definitely overperforming for the mid-late progression style players.

Sure HA caps out on live at about 100k, but reaching that point takes 10% of the effort that it does to do the same thing on a LA build while also having like 5k more health, almost tank level resistances, infinite sustain, almost 100% cleave damage and like a 4 button rotation - and at this DPS there isn't a single bit of content that's even remotely close to you being inaccessible to it.

Soarora

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen

Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?

I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?

Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.

"Slow" as long as you do 2 clicks/second, correct?

No? I said "at any pace" and I meant it. You can weave at an hour scale. I wouldn't suggest it, but it is still weaving. In fact, not everyone picks up weaving at full speed, often slowing down to learn the timing since it differs between skills. I mean really you could even use LA sets like relequen as long as you LA once per 4 seconds (set stays up for 5). So one can use a traditional build at a 4x slower pace and still use the same sets. DPS will go down because... damage per SECOND but you can do it and there's no shame in going a little slower... or choosing not to weave at all.

The definition of weaving is doing a skill and then a light attack or a light attack and then a skill. The goal is to do it in the same global cooldown but that's not the definition.

Right. And I could play the game only hitting a skill every 10 seconds. But there would be no point in doing so.

Initial practice aside, also is no point in weaving light attacks unless you're do so quickly enough to benefit your DPS or other combat effects.

While that is true, I highly doubt the minimum time for it to be useful is one second. Besides, one can not weave or weave poorly or even just weave one skill... without using a HA build. Don't tell anyone but my weaving in content gets questionable, yet my DPS does not suffer much from that. ZOS has been trying to make quick weaving more of an optional thing by lowering the damage of light attacks... it's not heavy attack or nothing.

I suspect that, unless one's skilled at weaving, one just shouldn't bother (except perhaps when need to proc something in particular).

E.g., I'll do a parse, note with disgust how few light attacks there were, increase the number of light attacks on the next try -- and get a lower DPS number. So I suspect I'm not firing skills quickly enough -- a theory supported by my low rate of magicka consumption -- and that "better" weaving exacerbates the problem.

If you never bother you'll never become skilled at it. Of course your amount of skills would be lower because you're focusing on weaving rather than your rotation. It's a multi-step process. Have to learn the rotation and how to weave the skills in that rotation and eventually do both well at the same time. Although, like I've suggested several times, you can just not weave... this thought process is reflected in some arguments I've seen regarding heavy attacks and even the beginning of this thread... "I'm not good at it instantly so I'm going to switch to a heavy attack build that makes me do a lot more damage". This goes right against "the build isn't easy!" and "stop comparing high-end HA parses and middle traditional parses".

To continue talking about other arguments, not directly at you Francis: I'm trying to be compromising in these discussions and arguing that top-end HA should only be knocked down enough so that endgamers let go of it (so at least then I can avoid the subject). However, I will admit that I cannot truly accept HA in endgame when it's people who are skipping the entire DPS progression line, in terms of game balance. Most HAers don't seem to be doing that much damage, but it's very likely because they're not running the meta setup, not even HA sets. Casuals should in fact not be in endgame. Is that elitism? Yeah sure, but is it inherently bad? No. I don't want to see ESO's progression crumble. This is a several year old MMORPG. The structure of things should not be changed so drastically. Why should casuals be in endgame... endgamers should be in endgame... it's in the name. I was a casual once. I was (am?) a meta-hater. I love mechanics. I come from elder scrolls. I've been kicked out of my fair share of dungeons when I was new. It's no excuse. More people in endgame isn't necessarily a good thing, quality over quantity. Endgame has been dying because of how it's been treated. More people in there isn't going to fix the leak and if people aren't going to come back then there will be a lead shortage.

I'm sure anyone who tried could understand why people are upset that they had to work hard to get where they are and not everyone else does, and how it's unfair that a build that is objectively easier has only social downsides that aren't even all that common anymore. But I have seen very few people on the "HA shouldn't be nerfed" side of the discussion that have an open mind. There is no "I understand why you feel that way, this is why I feel the way I do" and there is no "maybe we can compromise". It's being told to go play in closed groups. Being told that one is a gatekeeping elitist. Having points be ignored completely or argued against with the idea that "pro-HA" opinions matter more than "anti-HA" opinions do because "it's just a game" and disabled people who specifically want to play a HA build (again, it's not just traditional builds and HA builds. There are many options). Even people who said that their build got nerfed as if that's a point when everyone elses build got nerfed too (I got hit hard by this too, I was very upset about that update). Of course, also I understand (see, look, understanding) that people don't want their current build nerfed. Like I said, I've been there. So many builds have been destroyed over the years. HA should be viable, just not like this. I don't want to lose my build either. I don't want to be forced into oakenHA to get into groups. But that's the way things are going. Only in recent times has my mind been changed at all and it wasn't even from these discussions it was from my own poll/survey where I banned discussions...

This is very much like a teeter-totter where outside of exact balance, one side is going to lose. The supposed majority or the endgamers who are already in the endgame. Who should win is highly subjective. But if people are going to argue about things being taken away from them, then they should listen to endgamers talk about how things are being taken away at current. The only way to do vAS is with oakensoul. The build requirements for any level of run is shrinking to oakensoul or oakenHA sorcerer only. I am miserably surrounded by complaints by people who proceed to use the same build they're complaining about. Suggestions on how to do content has become "just use a heavy attack build". I hate what endgame is becoming and I am not willing to sit quietly and let it happen.

I cannot speak as if I have been disabled, I have not. But in terms of being a casual, I've been there. I'm just like you. Except I have never felt entitled to anything in the game. I have accepted what I will "never accomplish" and accomplished many of those goals anyways. Those long-term goals mean a lot to me, and outside of myself, they are good to have as people. The internet is poisoning our minds, giving us too much instant gratification. It should not be made worse. This whole situation strongly reminds me of when people were upset that Elden Ring doesn't have accessibility settings and it was too hard. Not every content is for everyone. It never should be.

FrancisCrawford

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I do think that HA builds are a pretty healthy thing overall for accessibility however OakenSorc HA is definitely overperforming for the mid-late progression style players.

Sure HA caps out on live at about 100k, but reaching that point takes 10% of the effort that it does to do the same thing on a LA build while also having like 5k more health, almost tank level resistances, infinite sustain, almost 100% cleave damage and like a 4 button rotation - and at this DPS there isn't a single bit of content that's even remotely close to you being inaccessible to it.

Sergeant's Mail 2-piece set bonus plus 1 piece of heavy armor passive gives well under 2K incremental health. Where are the other 3K coming from?

Lumenn

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen

Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?

I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?

Doesn’t actually have to be quick you can weave slowly. The goal is to fit a light attack and a skill in the same global cooldown but can also just light attack and cast a skill light attack and cast a skill at any pace.

"Slow" as long as you do 2 clicks/second, correct?

No? I said "at any pace" and I meant it. You can weave at an hour scale. I wouldn't suggest it, but it is still weaving. In fact, not everyone picks up weaving at full speed, often slowing down to learn the timing since it differs between skills. I mean really you could even use LA sets like relequen as long as you LA once per 4 seconds (set stays up for 5). So one can use a traditional build at a 4x slower pace and still use the same sets. DPS will go down because... damage per SECOND but you can do it and there's no shame in going a little slower... or choosing not to weave at all.

The definition of weaving is doing a skill and then a light attack or a light attack and then a skill. The goal is to do it in the same global cooldown but that's not the definition.

Right. And I could play the game only hitting a skill every 10 seconds. But there would be no point in doing so.

Initial practice aside, also is no point in weaving light attacks unless you're do so quickly enough to benefit your DPS or other combat effects.

While that is true, I highly doubt the minimum time for it to be useful is one second. Besides, one can not weave or weave poorly or even just weave one skill... without using a HA build. Don't tell anyone but my weaving in content gets questionable, yet my DPS does not suffer much from that. ZOS has been trying to make quick weaving more of an optional thing by lowering the damage of light attacks... it's not heavy attack or nothing.

So I suspect I'm not firing skills quickly enough

This jumped out at me. I'm totally on the HA side being an alternate form of play(especially as I'm old, and every year my hands do less with more pain) but I can weave. 120k is the best I got, I'm no 130k expert but back when I had to learn weaving if I wanted to do more than overland (being told tanks have to KNOW every run so don't tank. Healers have to KNOW all mechanics so don't heal. Be dps to learn the runs first) my problem was tapping TOO fast. It may help if you actually slowed down a bit(assuming you're even interested still in practicing your weave) dunno if that'll help you but it did me a few years ago.

Rkindaleft

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I do think that HA builds are a pretty healthy thing overall for accessibility however OakenSorc HA is definitely overperforming for the mid-late progression style players.

Sure HA caps out on live at about 100k, but reaching that point takes 10% of the effort that it does to do the same thing on a LA build while also having like 5k more health, almost tank level resistances, infinite sustain, almost 100% cleave damage and like a 4 button rotation - and at this DPS there isn't a single bit of content that's even remotely close to you being inaccessible to it.

Sergeant's Mail 2-piece set bonus plus 1 piece of heavy armor passive gives well under 2K incremental health. Where are the other 3K coming from?

@FrancisCrawford Expert Summoner passive is 8% and gives 2k on its own on a regular setup with Bi-stat food, like 23-24k health setups. Maybe it’s more like 4K health sorry, there’s undaunted passives too but they can be used by everyone.

I should be fair and say non-HA Sorc can make use of that passive as well.

FrancisCrawford

Rkindaleft wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I do think that HA builds are a pretty healthy thing overall for accessibility however OakenSorc HA is definitely overperforming for the mid-late progression style players.

Sure HA caps out on live at about 100k, but reaching that point takes 10% of the effort that it does to do the same thing on a LA build while also having like 5k more health, almost tank level resistances, infinite sustain, almost 100% cleave damage and like a 4 button rotation - and at this DPS there isn't a single bit of content that's even remotely close to you being inaccessible to it.

Sergeant's Mail 2-piece set bonus plus 1 piece of heavy armor passive gives well under 2K incremental health. Where are the other 3K coming from?

@FrancisCrawford Expert Summoner passive is 8% and gives 2k on its own on a regular setup with Bi-stat food, like 23-24k health setups. Maybe it’s more like 4K health sorry, there’s undaunted passives too but they can be used by everyone.

I should be fair and say non-HA Sorc can make use of that passive as well.

Got it. Thanks.

RodneyRegis

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I do think that HA builds are a pretty healthy thing overall for accessibility however OakenSorc HA is definitely overperforming for the mid-late progression style players.

Sure HA caps out on live at about 100k, but reaching that point takes 10% of the effort that it does to do the same thing on a LA build while also having like 5k more health, almost tank level resistances, infinite sustain, almost 100% cleave damage and like a 4 button rotation - and at this DPS there isn't a single bit of content that's even remotely close to you being inaccessible to it.

Sergeant's Mail 2-piece set bonus plus 1 piece of heavy armor passive gives well under 2K incremental health. Where are the other 3K coming from?

From being able to run bistat food and never even considering mag recovery.

TybaltKaine

Hey folks, HA Oakensorc here.

Just wanted to add that even though I've been Oakensorcing for almost a year, I still haven't managed a single Trifecta. Why? Because I can't. I physically cannot.

I can run trials with my guild now, which is nice, but I can't just magically do 90k DPS because I put a ring on my character. I still top out around 50k on a good hand day.

As usual with these discussions, they have become less "Let's fix HA builds in a way that makes them still be viable, but not so desirable to those who don't normally use them" and more "let's just nerf Oakensoul and dump on players that use it because obviously it's an I win button".

The problem is, as always, that some people feel entitled. They think that if everyone can't do things the way they do them, then no one should be able to.

Reading the last 7 pages has just reinforced that.

RodneyRegis

Some people just won't ever get gryphon heart (obviously that trifecta chosen for a reason), not because they have arthritis, but because they aren't good enough. Maybe that's OK. Maybe there's no right to do so, and no need for a game developer to allow them to do it to the detriment of everybody who worked for it. Maybe not though.

Marcus684

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Some people just won't ever get gryphon heart (obviously that trifecta chosen for a reason), not because they have arthritis, but because they aren't good enough. Maybe that's OK. Maybe there's no right to do so, and no need for a game developer to allow them to do it to the detriment of everybody who worked for it. Maybe not though.

Ah yes. The old, "Making it easier devalues those who already have it" argument. Please help me understand how making it easier is a "detriment" to those who already did it? Maybe I'm missing something, since I've never felt that someone coming after me and expending less effort to achieve something I did was a detriment.

RodneyRegis

Marcus684 wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Some people just won't ever get gryphon heart (obviously that trifecta chosen for a reason), not because they have arthritis, but because they aren't good enough. Maybe that's OK. Maybe there's no right to do so, and no need for a game developer to allow them to do it to the detriment of everybody who worked for it. Maybe not though.

Ah yes. The old, "Making it easier devalues those who already have it" argument. Please help me understand how making it easier is a "detriment" to those who already did it? Maybe I'm missing something, since I've never felt that someone coming after me and expending less effort to achieve something I did was a detriment.

If you don't understand that's fine. But what is the point in an achievement if its not gated behind any sort of skill? Just call everyone godslayer if they walk through the gates of sunspire.

xYureka

Heelie wrote: »

LoganEso wrote: »

So many people saying there is no real hate towards HA or/and Oakensoul. I'll just leave this sample here.

Don't attack @ Despise like that the SS is completely out of context.

I know this guy. He is my friend but when I stream half naked for him in raids, he kept asking me to take off my oakensoul?? I don't see why I should when I do the most damage in total on oakensoul. He also ask me to gold out my weapons in vSS hm prog but I already spent my money on buying spell power pot which he also asked me to buy.

He is nice though and a good raid lead (when he doesn't scream at me to take off oakensoul or not to tank on a werewolf build)

Soarora

Marcus684 wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Some people just won't ever get gryphon heart (obviously that trifecta chosen for a reason), not because they have arthritis, but because they aren't good enough. Maybe that's OK. Maybe there's no right to do so, and no need for a game developer to allow them to do it to the detriment of everybody who worked for it. Maybe not though.

Ah yes. The old, "Making it easier devalues those who already have it" argument. Please help me understand how making it easier is a "detriment" to those who already did it? Maybe I'm missing something, since I've never felt that someone coming after me and expending less effort to achieve something I did was a detriment.

Just because you're like that doesn't mean everyone else is or anyone is in the wrong for feeling upset about people getting something in an easier manner than they did. However, the more important aspect to note is that if something can be done in an easier manner, that will become the way to do it. I don't want to play HA, I love my build I worked hard on crafting. But the way things are going is that people have to use oakenHA (often a sorc) to get into groups. If they do get in, then they don't get yolnakriin and get outparsed by people expending a lot less effort with a lot more survivability. If I want to do vAS as a DPS ever again I will have to create an oakenHA lightning build or server hop until I find a guild that doesn't do oakensoul runs.

Trifectas are the crown of endgame. They should not be made easier. Not even by power creep. No one's forcing you to do them. The glory of trifecta completions shouldn't be taken away from those who do them. IR has become fundamentally easier, and now has less value than it did before. That will happen to every trifecta that is doable with oakenHA in its current iteration. It's not inherently evil to want trifectas to have value and be known to be difficult. It's like having a collector's item of only 100 that you earned through weeks if not months or years of training just to later have it become a collector's item of 500,000 that people earn through running a short obstacle course. If this belief makes me an elitist then I will be one proudly.

xYureka wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

LoganEso wrote: »

So many people saying there is no real hate towards HA or/and Oakensoul. I'll just leave this sample here.

Don't attack @ Despise like that the SS is completely out of context.

I know this guy. He is my friend but when I stream half naked for him in raids, he kept asking me to take off my oakensoul?? I don't see why I should when I do the most damage in total on oakensoul. He also ask me to gold out my weapons in vSS hm prog but I already spent my money on buying spell power pot which he also asked me to buy.

He is nice though and a good raid lead (when he doesn't scream at me to take off oakensoul or not to tank on a werewolf build)

Weapons are always the first thing to be golded out. You should not be in a trial hardmode progression if you refuse to gold out your weapons. For any reason. It makes a big difference in things. You also really shouldn't be tanking as a werewolf in a trial either unless it's a werewolf fun trial... tank is required to chain and have several (de-)buffs. In a dungeon for fun fine but I would even find it questionable in veteran... I have a werewolf tank and I only use it in normal dungeons. It's group content, you have to be willing to do things in the name of the group.

Marcus684

Soarora wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Some people just won't ever get gryphon heart (obviously that trifecta chosen for a reason), not because they have arthritis, but because they aren't good enough. Maybe that's OK. Maybe there's no right to do so, and no need for a game developer to allow them to do it to the detriment of everybody who worked for it. Maybe not though.

Ah yes. The old, "Making it easier devalues those who already have it" argument. Please help me understand how making it easier is a "detriment" to those who already did it? Maybe I'm missing something, since I've never felt that someone coming after me and expending less effort to achieve something I did was a detriment.

Just because you're like that doesn't mean everyone else is or anyone is in the wrong for feeling upset about people getting something in an easier manner than they did. However, the more important aspect to note is that if something can be done in an easier manner, that will become the way to do it. I don't want to play HA, I love my build I worked hard on crafting. But the way things are going is that people have to use oakenHA (often a sorc) to get into groups. If they do get in, then they don't get yolnakriin and get outparsed by people expending a lot less effort with a lot more survivability. If I want to do vAS as a DPS ever again I will have to create an oakenHA lightning build or server hop until I find a guild that doesn't do oakensoul runs.

Trifectas are the crown of endgame. They should not be made easier. Not even by power creep. No one's forcing you to do them. The glory of trifecta completions shouldn't be taken away from those who do them. IR has become fundamentally easier, and now has less value than it did before. That will happen to every trifecta that is doable with oakenHA in its current iteration. It's not inherently evil to want trifectas to have value and be known to be difficult. It's like having a collector's item of only 100 that you earned through weeks if not months or years of training just to later have it become a collector's item of 500,000 that people earn through running a short obstacle course. If this belief makes me an elitist then I will be one proudly.

xYureka wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

LoganEso wrote: »

So many people saying there is no real hate towards HA or/and Oakensoul. I'll just leave this sample here.

Don't attack @ Despise like that the SS is completely out of context.

I know this guy. He is my friend but when I stream half naked for him in raids, he kept asking me to take off my oakensoul?? I don't see why I should when I do the most damage in total on oakensoul. He also ask me to gold out my weapons in vSS hm prog but I already spent my money on buying spell power pot which he also asked me to buy.

He is nice though and a good raid lead (when he doesn't scream at me to take off oakensoul or not to tank on a werewolf build)

Weapons are always the first thing to be golded out. You should not be in a trial hardmode progression if you refuse to gold out your weapons. For any reason. It makes a big difference in things. You also really shouldn't be tanking as a werewolf in a trial either unless it's a werewolf fun trial... tank is required to chain and have several (de-)buffs. In a dungeon for fun fine but I would even find it questionable in veteran... I have a werewolf tank and I only use it in normal dungeons. It's group content, you have to be willing to do things in the name of the group.

I guess I'll just have to accept that I'll never understand this sentiment. If I know that others achieved something I did because it was made easier, I just accept that it's now easier and move on. It doesn't change how much effort I know I put into it. I also put zero prestige into skins and titles, but rather pursue them if they appeal to me asthetically.

I guess this is the main divide between those who dislike Oakenbuilds and those who don't. People who attach prestige to titles and skins don't want them made easier, for whatever reason. I don't know how they deal with the fact that power creep has done more over the years to allow more players to get these achievements than Oakensoul has, but like others have said, to each their own. We can all advocate for our views on this til our fingers bleed and ZOS will still do what they will.

Soarora

Marcus684 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Some people just won't ever get gryphon heart (obviously that trifecta chosen for a reason), not because they have arthritis, but because they aren't good enough. Maybe that's OK. Maybe there's no right to do so, and no need for a game developer to allow them to do it to the detriment of everybody who worked for it. Maybe not though.

Ah yes. The old, "Making it easier devalues those who already have it" argument. Please help me understand how making it easier is a "detriment" to those who already did it? Maybe I'm missing something, since I've never felt that someone coming after me and expending less effort to achieve something I did was a detriment.

Just because you're like that doesn't mean everyone else is or anyone is in the wrong for feeling upset about people getting something in an easier manner than they did. However, the more important aspect to note is that if something can be done in an easier manner, that will become the way to do it. I don't want to play HA, I love my build I worked hard on crafting. But the way things are going is that people have to use oakenHA (often a sorc) to get into groups. If they do get in, then they don't get yolnakriin and get outparsed by people expending a lot less effort with a lot more survivability. If I want to do vAS as a DPS ever again I will have to create an oakenHA lightning build or server hop until I find a guild that doesn't do oakensoul runs.

Trifectas are the crown of endgame. They should not be made easier. Not even by power creep. No one's forcing you to do them. The glory of trifecta completions shouldn't be taken away from those who do them. IR has become fundamentally easier, and now has less value than it did before. That will happen to every trifecta that is doable with oakenHA in its current iteration. It's not inherently evil to want trifectas to have value and be known to be difficult. It's like having a collector's item of only 100 that you earned through weeks if not months or years of training just to later have it become a collector's item of 500,000 that people earn through running a short obstacle course. If this belief makes me an elitist then I will be one proudly.

xYureka wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

LoganEso wrote: »

So many people saying there is no real hate towards HA or/and Oakensoul. I'll just leave this sample here.

Don't attack @ Despise like that the SS is completely out of context.

I know this guy. He is my friend but when I stream half naked for him in raids, he kept asking me to take off my oakensoul?? I don't see why I should when I do the most damage in total on oakensoul. He also ask me to gold out my weapons in vSS hm prog but I already spent my money on buying spell power pot which he also asked me to buy.

He is nice though and a good raid lead (when he doesn't scream at me to take off oakensoul or not to tank on a werewolf build)

Weapons are always the first thing to be golded out. You should not be in a trial hardmode progression if you refuse to gold out your weapons. For any reason. It makes a big difference in things. You also really shouldn't be tanking as a werewolf in a trial either unless it's a werewolf fun trial... tank is required to chain and have several (de-)buffs. In a dungeon for fun fine but I would even find it questionable in veteran... I have a werewolf tank and I only use it in normal dungeons. It's group content, you have to be willing to do things in the name of the group.

I guess I'll just have to accept that I'll never understand this sentiment. If I know that others achieved something I did because it was made easier, I just accept that it's now easier and move on. It doesn't change how much effort I know I put into it. I also put zero prestige into skins and titles, but rather pursue them if they appeal to me asthetically.

I guess this is the main divide between those who dislike Oakenbuilds and those who don't. People who attach prestige to titles and skins don't want them made easier, for whatever reason. I don't know how they deal with the fact that power creep has done more over the years to allow more players to get these achievements than Oakensoul has, but like others have said, to each their own. We can all advocate for our views on this til our fingers bleed and ZOS will still do what they will.

I wouldn't say it's the main divide but I would say that it is one of them. I don't think people like power creep either but I only started playing in 2019 and was a casual for a while, so power creep hasn't been an issue for me personally. And yeah, I'm not sure any of our arguments in any of these threads really will mean a single thing to ZOS. They see what oakenHA is capable of, they know what they want the ceiling of it to be, and as we have seen time and time again they will do whatever they will to make things how they want things to be. Thank you for being calm and willing to agree to disagree and for trying to understand how other people feel. It's appreciated.

FantasticFreddie

Marcus684 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Some people just won't ever get gryphon heart (obviously that trifecta chosen for a reason), not because they have arthritis, but because they aren't good enough. Maybe that's OK. Maybe there's no right to do so, and no need for a game developer to allow them to do it to the detriment of everybody who worked for it. Maybe not though.

Ah yes. The old, "Making it easier devalues those who already have it" argument. Please help me understand how making it easier is a "detriment" to those who already did it? Maybe I'm missing something, since I've never felt that someone coming after me and expending less effort to achieve something I did was a detriment.

Just because you're like that doesn't mean everyone else is or anyone is in the wrong for feeling upset about people getting something in an easier manner than they did. However, the more important aspect to note is that if something can be done in an easier manner, that will become the way to do it. I don't want to play HA, I love my build I worked hard on crafting. But the way things are going is that people have to use oakenHA (often a sorc) to get into groups. If they do get in, then they don't get yolnakriin and get outparsed by people expending a lot less effort with a lot more survivability. If I want to do vAS as a DPS ever again I will have to create an oakenHA lightning build or server hop until I find a guild that doesn't do oakensoul runs.

Trifectas are the crown of endgame. They should not be made easier. Not even by power creep. No one's forcing you to do them. The glory of trifecta completions shouldn't be taken away from those who do them. IR has become fundamentally easier, and now has less value than it did before. That will happen to every trifecta that is doable with oakenHA in its current iteration. It's not inherently evil to want trifectas to have value and be known to be difficult. It's like having a collector's item of only 100 that you earned through weeks if not months or years of training just to later have it become a collector's item of 500,000 that people earn through running a short obstacle course. If this belief makes me an elitist then I will be one proudly.

xYureka wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

LoganEso wrote: »

So many people saying there is no real hate towards HA or/and Oakensoul. I'll just leave this sample here.

Don't attack @ Despise like that the SS is completely out of context.

I know this guy. He is my friend but when I stream half naked for him in raids, he kept asking me to take off my oakensoul?? I don't see why I should when I do the most damage in total on oakensoul. He also ask me to gold out my weapons in vSS hm prog but I already spent my money on buying spell power pot which he also asked me to buy.

He is nice though and a good raid lead (when he doesn't scream at me to take off oakensoul or not to tank on a werewolf build)

Weapons are always the first thing to be golded out. You should not be in a trial hardmode progression if you refuse to gold out your weapons. For any reason. It makes a big difference in things. You also really shouldn't be tanking as a werewolf in a trial either unless it's a werewolf fun trial... tank is required to chain and have several (de-)buffs. In a dungeon for fun fine but I would even find it questionable in veteran... I have a werewolf tank and I only use it in normal dungeons. It's group content, you have to be willing to do things in the name of the group.

I guess I'll just have to accept that I'll never understand this sentiment. If I know that others achieved something I did because it was made easier, I just accept that it's now easier and move on. It doesn't change how much effort I know I put into it. I also put zero prestige into skins and titles, but rather pursue them if they appeal to me asthetically.

I guess this is the main divide between those who dislike Oakenbuilds and those who don't. People who attach prestige to titles and skins don't want them made easier, for whatever reason. I don't know how they deal with the fact that power creep has done more over the years to allow more players to get these achievements than Oakensoul has, but like others have said, to each their own. We can all advocate for our views on this til our fingers bleed and ZOS will still do what they will.

For me, it's a combination of things.
I don't like the complete imbalance of effort an Oakensorc brings to a group. I also want certain things to maintain a significant level of challenge for me and my groups-- and while you can say "well just don't use it then!!" deliberately making something harder than it is for no reason feels hollow.
It also feels like people who use Oakensoul stop learning or improving, and I don't like that or think it's good for the game

BlueRaven

Z

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

You don’t hate them but gatekeep them and want everyone who uses them nerfed. Okay.

Yep this is the exact problem that’s going on now, no wonder there is a divide among players.

Honestly, I wish gatekept groups existed. But I don't know of any. Why? Well because then I'd be leaving all of you alone, wouldn't I? Can't complain about something I don't see. If I didn't have to hear people talking about how a new group cleared a trial trifecta in all HAs, how to optimize HAs, just do HAs to farm it's easy and takes no thought, looking for HA oakensorc only for whatever, how the build is so easy and survivable, every vAS run requiring oakensoul... ALL. THE. TIME. I would not feel like I'm going insane. But I do. And I cannot escape. Until I either do find a gatekept group or endgamers stop their shenanigans. Or I quit. But quitting because of this is stupid.

Hard to follow what you mean. But my point is negativity is an issue in this game. Bullying / elitism and to put in in the words of my 7 year old niece “you big meanie”. It’s just not nice behavior from player to player. The elder scrolls series is a nerdy fantasy series (and I hold that nerd badge with pride ) it’s not an esport. I feel like these esport types are making this game aggressive and removing the fantasy / role play / questing / elder scrolls feeel. It really reminds me of being the 5 foot kid in gym class and having the big jock throw the dodge ball in my face and call
Me certain slurs I can’t say here.


It comes off so negative / bullying and not inclusive.

We live in a society now where people have fought so hard for diversity and inclusion and for some reason it just isn’t happening in video games… at least online ones. And I think this is the reason why Skyrim or other elder scrolls players are hesitant to try this came out.

People absolutely should not be bullied. What I'm saying is that really my whole problem with HA has nothing to do with most HA players it's the endgamers I'm surrounded by. They're constantly complaining about how the build is easy and constantly trying to optimize it to get it to complete all content and it's not possible to avoid. I can't just "go play with people who align with your values", it's several guilds. It's almost everyone I know. (Edit: and zone chat! I JUST saw someone look for an oakensoul DPS for something that an oakensoul DPS is not "required" for...!!) I wish I was in a guild that excluded HAs not because of excluding people like you but to exclude endgamers who are putting themselves in a land of oakensorc-ha-with-this-one-build-only and then proceeding to complain about it. It's too much negativity on my side of the argument too. If endgamers weren't complaining about HAs and excluding traditional builds literally everywhere I look, I wouldn't care what HAs are capable of.

For me it’s the opposite I got laughed out of a dungeon and called terrible and awful for my low cp and HA build. So it must have to do with end gamers. But I’ll never be one if I’m never allowed to progress and get kicked out for my play style so.

You’re going to have to bring the receipts on this one- something like screenshots. End gamers are generally some of the most helpful and kind people I’ve met in 9 years of playing ESO and are people who actually mentor new [snip] players like yourself, so how do you know they are end gamers? [snip]

End gamers don’t care about your CP or build as long as you do your role, follow the mechs, and bring good damage as a DPS. Hearing the various iterations of this tale makes me think you queued for a vet dungeon that you weren’t ready for and didn’t know the mechs for and ended up on the floor repeatedly. Being kicked once does not indicate a community wide problem, perhaps the issue was with with your performance?

[edited for baiting]

End gamers don't care about your build? Have you seen this post from earlier in the thread?

Kusto wrote: »

I don't hate HA builds but I don't allow them in my raids. It wouldn't be fair to others who put in the time and effort to learn rotation and weaving only to get outparsed by someone holding down 1 button.
It should definitely get nerfed some more. Currently it's only creating toxicity. People can still use it in vet content if tops at someting like 50-60k.

A month ago I would have agreed with you about the community. But this whole thing about the oak ring and HA builds has shown me a really ugly side to this community. Upper tier players telling people who do much lower dps that they should take a nerf, it's really soured me on this community.

FrancisCrawford

RodneyRegis wrote: »

It's not 10x harder to do the same content with a 2 bar build. It's way more than that.

I have a vMA 1 bar build which uses no skills. I'm down to 3 deaths without sigils, going for another flawless with it. Not a single skill fired in the entire arena. OK I'm gated behind end-game mechanics such as the odd roll dodge to avoid taking aim, which is maybe a bit unfair of ZOS to expect of me, along with respawning pets now and again. But luckily no synergies or potions required, and I didn't need to bother with good traits or gold gear, so there's that. I'm wondering now if I could put on walk and autorun and kite everything to avoid needing to actually direct my character with keys.

I should think I could get my 8 year old daughter to hit 80k on a dummy in an afternoon, if I could get her to concentrate long enough.

But sure, it's not THAT easy.

Congratulations! You surpassed the 2019 state of the art!!! (No-skills runs back then used sigils.)

Well, maybe. After all: If you used and respawned pets, you were using skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraXZtHn6NE

SeaGtGruff

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Soarora

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Because I can't play the way I want until endgamers who absolutely do not need to be using HA for disability reasons stop pushing for oakenHA-only groups. I keep complaining about AS around here and it's because truly I do want to do vAS but I CAN'T unless I do oakenHA. Literally, genuinely, cannot. It's not as easy as you think it is.

FrancisCrawford

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Because I can't play the way I want until endgamers who absolutely do not need to be using HA for disability reasons stop pushing for oakenHA-only groups. I keep complaining about AS around here and it's because truly I do want to do vAS but I CAN'T unless I do oakenHA. Literally, genuinely, cannot. It's not as easy as you think it is.

So you want to have a whole playstyle destroyed because it turns out to be overpowered for ONE particular trial???????

PrincessOfThieves

.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Because I can't play the way I want until endgamers who absolutely do not need to be using HA for disability reasons stop pushing for oakenHA-only groups. I keep complaining about AS around here and it's because truly I do want to do vAS but I CAN'T unless I do oakenHA. Literally, genuinely, cannot. It's not as easy as you think it is.

So you want to have a whole playstyle destroyed because it turns out to be overpowered for ONE particular trial???????

No one here wants the playstyle to be destroyed. It should just be balanced. Having it all - infinite sustain and heals, insane tankiness and high dps - is not balanced considering that other builds have to sacrifice something to be tankier or to do higher damage. So I personally think it would be okay if they roll back the damage nerfs but remove the tankiness aspect instead.
Why should there be an easy mode for hardmodes? Everything in game can be done on normal difficulty already, hms and trifectas are just here for the challenge and bragging rights.
Also, Oakensorc is overpowered in most vet scenarios. Dungeon achievements, arenas, vet trials... vAS situation is just the worst case of Oakensorc favoritism.

Eldartar

nemesrichard wrote: »

First of all I don't play this game so long therefore I am aware I lack some knowledge on the game but what I experinced is not relevant to me being new.

As my main I chose MagPlar because I love paladin-like classes in mmos. I made my research about classes in general and I learnt that Templar is not the meta dps but has very good survivability. I didn't mind I thought I was going to be a healer when I learnt the game in end game group content.
I leveled my Templar mostly in dungeons and I noticed that my damage is quite bad compared to others but I thought they have sets and CP so thats why they do a lot better even if the game is scaled.
I got to 160 CP, collected the advised gear, read about MagPlar builds, tried them, learnt LA weaving yet in dungeons I made mediocre damage compared to others, only thing I was good for beaming the bosses. It became embarrasing to do dungeons with guild and friends I felt like a collectible pet in the group just running with the other but doing nothing important. I lost my wish to play with Templar any more and made sense the threads in forum complaing about Templar damage skills.
But then it occured to me that HA builds don't depend on classes they depend on sets so I gave it try. I collected the gear and went to try it first grinding CP in Verrant Morass and OMG I melted the mobs. Now when I go into dungeons I contribute to the group.

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

What you should actually do is play how you want to, don't let others opinion bully you in to playing any other way. You're here to relax, have fun and enjoy yourself not to conform to others idea on how the game should be played.

FantasticFreddie

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Because I can't play the way I want until endgamers who absolutely do not need to be using HA for disability reasons stop pushing for oakenHA-only groups. I keep complaining about AS around here and it's because truly I do want to do vAS but I CAN'T unless I do oakenHA. Literally, genuinely, cannot. It's not as easy as you think it is.

Support meta hasn't changed, except for the cro dd.

I'm up to 10 pug IR in oakensorc meta, 9 were as TH, only 1 was an oakensoul build and it was Rojo cro.

HappyDan

I know some endgamers get pissy when someone signs up as a HA in a run.
I personally don't care if a HA is in the run as long as they do the same amount of dps as everyone else.
But HA sorcs are indeed ez mode, I haven't done vma for ages and vsh since it was released (to get the skin), I popped in both arena's with HA sorc (not storm set, just some meme mag set) and got the trifecta in both super easy non HA sorcs will have to learn the arena and mechanics while a HA sorc can come in and do it easily while ignoring most mechanics.

Soarora

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Because I can't play the way I want until endgamers who absolutely do not need to be using HA for disability reasons stop pushing for oakenHA-only groups. I keep complaining about AS around here and it's because truly I do want to do vAS but I CAN'T unless I do oakenHA. Literally, genuinely, cannot. It's not as easy as you think it is.

Support meta hasn't changed, except for the cro dd.

I'm up to 10 pug IR in oakensorc meta, 9 were as TH, only 1 was an oakensoul build and it was Rojo cro.

1. I don’t want to heal I want to DPS
2. You’re proving that oakenHA has ruined IR
3. …

Soarora wrote: »

[…] I complain about my IR not wholly because “HA easy” but specifically because I didn’t have to heal and debuff as much as I would have for non-HA builds, which affects how /I/ played, making it EASIER than it should have been. Not even saying it was a free trifecta given to me on a silver platter, but that to me I skipped responsibilities I would have needed to have with a traditional group. I didn’t Really do IR, only like 80% of one, if that, but still got the achievement. Not a carry, not a real clear to me. Never can do AS again until oakenHA isn’t the meta in there anymore. There’s zero (0) traditional build friendly AS runs that I have seen in months.

To be more detailed if you’re interested:
- DPS can block through an Olms jump even when in the AoE, something that normally isn’t possible, meaning I didn’t have to heal the group during jumps. This made things a lot easier because I didn’t have to prepare to heal them while not getting hit by Olms or Felms aoes. I have done vAS+2 where I had to heal the group during jumps and it was hard.
-There’s so much lightning damage I didn’t have to do minor vulnerability. Another uptime to not worry about and I replaced my vulnerability skill with a heal for myself… which also made things a LOT easier because if I got caught in an AoE or DoT I could heal myself out easily, so I didn’t have to worry about them either.

So nevermind the DPS and their melty cleave and sustain and survivability and healing (matriarch)… even my own experience was made much easier and I wasn’t even running HA, they were! The new normal for AS abandons several things that make AS difficult and not only for the DPS. I know it’s considered an outlier where HA is meta, but it won’t be an outlier forever. So many oakensorc only runs… not all HA runs are even accessible to anything but the meta setup for HA. […]

FantasticFreddie

Soarora wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Because I can't play the way I want until endgamers who absolutely do not need to be using HA for disability reasons stop pushing for oakenHA-only groups. I keep complaining about AS around here and it's because truly I do want to do vAS but I CAN'T unless I do oakenHA. Literally, genuinely, cannot. It's not as easy as you think it is.

Support meta hasn't changed, except for the cro dd.

I'm up to 10 pug IR in oakensorc meta, 9 were as TH, only 1 was an oakensoul build and it was Rojo cro.

1. I don’t want to heal I want to DPS
2. You’re proving that oakenHA has ruined IR
3. …

Soarora wrote: »

[…] I complain about my IR not wholly because “HA easy” but specifically because I didn’t have to heal and debuff as much as I would have for non-HA builds, which affects how /I/ played, making it EASIER than it should have been. Not even saying it was a free trifecta given to me on a silver platter, but that to me I skipped responsibilities I would have needed to have with a traditional group. I didn’t Really do IR, only like 80% of one, if that, but still got the achievement. Not a carry, not a real clear to me. Never can do AS again until oakenHA isn’t the meta in there anymore. There’s zero (0) traditional build friendly AS runs that I have seen in months.

To be more detailed if you’re interested:
- DPS can block through an Olms jump even when in the AoE, something that normally isn’t possible, meaning I didn’t have to heal the group during jumps. This made things a lot easier because I didn’t have to prepare to heal them while not getting hit by Olms or Felms aoes. I have done vAS+2 where I had to heal the group during jumps and it was hard.
-There’s so much lightning damage I didn’t have to do minor vulnerability. Another uptime to not worry about and I replaced my vulnerability skill with a heal for myself… which also made things a LOT easier because if I got caught in an AoE or DoT I could heal myself out easily, so I didn’t have to worry about them either.

So nevermind the DPS and their melty cleave and sustain and survivability and healing (matriarch)… even my own experience was made much easier and I wasn’t even running HA, they were! The new normal for AS abandons several things that make AS difficult and not only for the DPS. I know it’s considered an outlier where HA is meta, but it won’t be an outlier forever. So many oakensorc only runs… not all HA runs are even accessible to anything but the meta setup for HA. […]

I'm not arguing that vAS hasn't become incredibly easy, or that IR is now a trivial achievement, I'm just saying that there ARE roles other than the specific oakensorc I the trial-- as far as I can tell the tank job is largely unchanged, tank healer still does 0 actual healing, group healer can still kill the group by not catching felms correctly, etc.

Soarora

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The myth of the low dps player that saves the day with flawless execution of mechanics in the face of the brainless parse monkeys is largely just that-- a myth.

I can honestly say that I've never heard of that myth until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if the existence of that myth is really just a myth?

But seriously, I don't understand why everyone can't just play the way they want, and focus on the content they're interested in, and stop worrying about and criticizing what other players are or aren't doing.

Because I can't play the way I want until endgamers who absolutely do not need to be using HA for disability reasons stop pushing for oakenHA-only groups. I keep complaining about AS around here and it's because truly I do want to do vAS but I CAN'T unless I do oakenHA. Literally, genuinely, cannot. It's not as easy as you think it is.

Support meta hasn't changed, except for the cro dd.

I'm up to 10 pug IR in oakensorc meta, 9 were as TH, only 1 was an oakensoul build and it was Rojo cro.

1. I don’t want to heal I want to DPS
2. You’re proving that oakenHA has ruined IR
3. …

Soarora wrote: »

[…] I complain about my IR not wholly because “HA easy” but specifically because I didn’t have to heal and debuff as much as I would have for non-HA builds, which affects how /I/ played, making it EASIER than it should have been. Not even saying it was a free trifecta given to me on a silver platter, but that to me I skipped responsibilities I would have needed to have with a traditional group. I didn’t Really do IR, only like 80% of one, if that, but still got the achievement. Not a carry, not a real clear to me. Never can do AS again until oakenHA isn’t the meta in there anymore. There’s zero (0) traditional build friendly AS runs that I have seen in months.

To be more detailed if you’re interested:
- DPS can block through an Olms jump even when in the AoE, something that normally isn’t possible, meaning I didn’t have to heal the group during jumps. This made things a lot easier because I didn’t have to prepare to heal them while not getting hit by Olms or Felms aoes. I have done vAS+2 where I had to heal the group during jumps and it was hard.
-There’s so much lightning damage I didn’t have to do minor vulnerability. Another uptime to not worry about and I replaced my vulnerability skill with a heal for myself… which also made things a LOT easier because if I got caught in an AoE or DoT I could heal myself out easily, so I didn’t have to worry about them either.

So nevermind the DPS and their melty cleave and sustain and survivability and healing (matriarch)… even my own experience was made much easier and I wasn’t even running HA, they were! The new normal for AS abandons several things that make AS difficult and not only for the DPS. I know it’s considered an outlier where HA is meta, but it won’t be an outlier forever. So many oakensorc only runs… not all HA runs are even accessible to anything but the meta setup for HA. […]

I'm not arguing that vAS hasn't become incredibly easy, or that IR is now a trivial achievement, I'm just saying that there ARE roles other than the specific oakensorc I the trial-- as far as I can tell the tank job is largely unchanged, tank healer still does 0 actual healing, group healer can still kill the group by not catching felms correctly, etc.

I know that there are but that doesn’t change the fact I want to DPS and I cannot find a group that will let me do that on my own build. Nor does it change my experience that all-HA DPS affects the support roles, at least GH.