SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

Marcus684 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

HappyDan wrote: »

I know some endgamers get pissy when someone signs up as a HA in a run.
I personally don't care if a HA is in the run as long as they do the same amount of dps as everyone else.
But HA sorcs are indeed ez mode, I haven't done vma for ages and vsh since it was released (to get the skin), I popped in both arena's with HA sorc (not storm set, just some meme mag set) and got the trifecta in both super easy non HA sorcs will have to learn the arena and mechanics while a HA sorc can come in and do it easily while ignoring most mechanics.

TBF HA petsorc easy mode for vMA has been around for literally years. A guildie of mine was advertising it at least 5 years ago, probably longer. Oakensoul just kicks it up a notch.

I don't see many commenters here denying that oakenbuilds are much easier to play, but that's exactly what the ring was intended to do. Making things more accessible will also attract players that don't actually need the help, but just want to put in less effort and still complete content. ZOS will decide where the line is drawn between accessiblilty and challenge and we as the players will have to adjust. Oakensoul advocates will also have to accept that the ring, and future accessibility aids, will be buffed and nerfed just like any other item.

I think there is a fair distinction between accessibility and ease.

Let's take solo arenas as a baseline for it, since those are balanced for an individual player.

I can do a two bar sorc build through Vet Vateshran in around 43 minutes, or 2 minutes under the speed run.

I can do an oakensorc build through Vet Vateshran in 30 minutes.

I can do that same two bar sorc through vet Maelstrom in like 48-50 minutes. The same oakensorc can do 37-40 minutes.

Accessibility would mean that the oaken sorcs would be able to achieve the speed runs with some effort and care, similar in comparison to solo setups. Ease is that the oaken builds can do those same achievements 20-30% faster on straight DPS setups, without any worry about sustain.

You're still looking at it from an able-bodied perspective. What's super easy for an experienced player with access to all the best gear may still be a challenge for someone without these advantages. Another good example is dolmens. I'm a very experienced player but far from top tier, and dolmens stopped being a challenge years ago. However, I have guildies that have played for 2+ years and still struggle with them due to physical and mental factors.

I don't think there's any way for ZOS to provide accessibility aids in the game without making parts of it trivially easy, and I don't really see a problem with this.

I am looking at it that way because that is how Zos is using the term Accessibility.

It is not, and never has been, about disabled people.

It is about making harder content more accessible to people who aren't that good at the game. There is obviously an overlap there, but the game should never be balanced around disability access. You can't balance a game around that. You can balance a game around the entry point into content.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

It's not 10x harder to do the same content with a 2 bar build. It's way more than that.

I have a vMA 1 bar build which uses no skills. I'm down to 3 deaths without sigils, going for another flawless with it. Not a single skill fired in the entire arena. OK I'm gated behind end-game mechanics such as the odd roll dodge to avoid taking aim, which is maybe a bit unfair of ZOS to expect of me, along with respawning pets now and again. But luckily no synergies or potions required, and I didn't need to bother with good traits or gold gear, so there's that. I'm wondering now if I could put on walk and autorun and kite everything to avoid needing to actually direct my character with keys.

I should think I could get my 8 year old daughter to hit 80k on a dummy in an afternoon, if I could get her to concentrate long enough.

But sure, it's not THAT easy.

Congratulations! You surpassed the 2019 state of the art!!! (No-skills runs back then used sigils.)

Well, maybe. After all: If you used and respawned pets, you were using skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraXZtHn6NE

Its a fair point, although he is using spectral explosion. The skill level required in his video was magnitudes higher than the current method though.

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

This is a game. Getting a trifecta is nice & well done & all that, but seriously, it’s fundamentally just pressing buttons, and doesn’t really have any relevance to reality. So why get all huffy about it? Let people enjoy themselves! Surely this is meant to be fun?!

(And if I do have to care, I’m more bothered about paid carries - that is what has already diminished those achievements anyway)

That literally doesn't make sense. If achievements mean nothing then why the need to give them away like candy?

.

Marcus684 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

HappyDan wrote: »

I know some endgamers get pissy when someone signs up as a HA in a run.
I personally don't care if a HA is in the run as long as they do the same amount of dps as everyone else.
But HA sorcs are indeed ez mode, I haven't done vma for ages and vsh since it was released (to get the skin), I popped in both arena's with HA sorc (not storm set, just some meme mag set) and got the trifecta in both super easy non HA sorcs will have to learn the arena and mechanics while a HA sorc can come in and do it easily while ignoring most mechanics.

TBF HA petsorc easy mode for vMA has been around for literally years. A guildie of mine was advertising it at least 5 years ago, probably longer. Oakensoul just kicks it up a notch.

I don't see many commenters here denying that oakenbuilds are much easier to play, but that's exactly what the ring was intended to do. Making things more accessible will also attract players that don't actually need the help, but just want to put in less effort and still complete content. ZOS will decide where the line is drawn between accessiblilty and challenge and we as the players will have to adjust. Oakensoul advocates will also have to accept that the ring, and future accessibility aids, will be buffed and nerfed just like any other item.

I think there is a fair distinction between accessibility and ease.

Let's take solo arenas as a baseline for it, since those are balanced for an individual player.

I can do a two bar sorc build through Vet Vateshran in around 43 minutes, or 2 minutes under the speed run.

I can do an oakensorc build through Vet Vateshran in 30 minutes.

I can do that same two bar sorc through vet Maelstrom in like 48-50 minutes. The same oakensorc can do 37-40 minutes.

Accessibility would mean that the oaken sorcs would be able to achieve the speed runs with some effort and care, similar in comparison to solo setups. Ease is that the oaken builds can do those same achievements 20-30% faster on straight DPS setups, without any worry about sustain.

You're still looking at it from an able-bodied perspective. What's super easy for an experienced player with access to all the best gear may still be a challenge for someone without these advantages. Another good example is dolmens. I'm a very experienced player but far from top tier, and dolmens stopped being a challenge years ago. However, I have guildies that have played for 2+ years and still struggle with them due to physical and mental factors.

I don't think there's any way for ZOS to provide accessibility aids in the game without making parts of it trivially easy, and I don't really see a problem with this.

We already have different difficulty settings to accomodate players of varying skill/ability levels. Each dungeon and trials has normal, veteran and veteran hardmode options. If you cannot do vet, then just play on normal. I am disabled and I struggle with anxiety and depression, but I honestly don't think that the game must be balanced around me because of this. When I'm having a bad day, I just do some normal dungeons or housing instead of demanding that the hardest hardmodes must be made easy because of this.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Why should there be an easy mode for hardmodes?

This actually strikes me as kind of funny, because I think the reason so many players are so hung up (in my opinion) on their DPS is because they want to make the content easier for them to clear. As Rich put it in his streams (if I can remember the way he put it), players like to find the path of least resistance, or something to that effect. This attitude isn't necessarily true of everyone, at least not in equal degrees, but generally speaking (and whether we're talking about single-player RPGs or MMORPGs) players try to find attribute spreads, skills, weapons, and armor that increases their chances of surviving the most difficult foes and kill things more quickly. In short, pretty much everyone is looking for their own "easy mode," whether they're doing it on their own through "theory crafting" or just following builds that the "experts" have posted. Why should the players who happen to use HAs be viewed and treated any differently in that respect than the players who prefer to use LA weaving with the "correct" ability bar setups and skill rotations which they practice for hours or days on end until they can do it perfectly and almost automatically via "muscle memory"?

Soarora wrote: »

I know that there are but that doesn’t change the fact I want to DPS and I cannot find a group that will let me do that on my own build.

I think that's a problem caused primarily by player attitudes and prejudices. As far as I've ever seen in gaming, it really doesn't matter what the devs put into a game, or how they nerf or buff things after the fact to try to maintain "balance," because no matter what is added to the game or changed later on, there will always be players who will try to find a way to capitalize on (or "exploit," if you will, but not in the sense of abusing an unintended glitch for unfair advantage) anything and everything in the game. If it doesn't help as much as other things do, or has more drawbacks than other things do, it will get pushed aside and anyone who's "stupid" enough to use it will become an object of scorn and ridicule. Terms such as L2P or GOML are (in my opinion) all about following along with whatever the "experts" say. It reminds me of a scene from a movie-- Midnight Express, I think?-- where a group of prisoners are pacing mindlessly in a circle around an object, all going at the same pace and in the same direction. Then the hero of the movie decides to be defiant and buck the flow, so he turns around and starts to pace in the opposite direction. The other prisoners freak out and start to yell at him and hit him for "going the wrong way."

You just have to be daring enough, and deaf enough, to do your own thing if you really want to, regardless of how anyone else reacts to it. If you're wanting to do some sort of group activity-- i.e., something that can't be soloed-- then you can try to find a group who will be fine with letting you do your thing your way, who won't freak out and start flailing away at you for refusing to march to the beat of the same drum that they do.

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

It matters little whether people actually hate my fun, or just want to lovingly and compassionately nerf it away.

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Why should there be an easy mode for hardmodes?

This actually strikes me as kind of funny, because I think the reason so many players are so hung up (in my opinion) on their DPS is because they want to make the content easier for them to clear. As Rich put it in his streams (if I can remember the way he put it), players like to find the path of least resistance, or something to that effect. This attitude isn't necessarily true of everyone, at least not in equal degrees, but generally speaking (and whether we're talking about single-player RPGs or MMORPGs) players try to find attribute spreads, skills, weapons, and armor that increases their chances of surviving the most difficult foes and kill things more quickly. In short, pretty much everyone is looking for their own "easy mode," whether they're doing it on their own through "theory crafting" or just following builds that the "experts" have posted. Why should the players who happen to use HAs be viewed and treated any differently in that respect than the players who prefer to use LA weaving with the "correct" ability bar setups and skill rotations which they practice for hours or days on end until they can do it perfectly and almost automatically via "muscle memory"?

Soarora wrote: »

I know that there are but that doesn’t change the fact I want to DPS and I cannot find a group that will let me do that on my own build.

I think that's a problem caused primarily by player attitudes and prejudices. As far as I've ever seen in gaming, it really doesn't matter what the devs put into a game, or how they nerf or buff things after the fact to try to maintain "balance," because no matter what is added to the game or changed later on, there will always be players who will try to find a way to capitalize on (or "exploit," if you will, but not in the sense of abusing an unintended glitch for unfair advantage) anything and everything in the game. If it doesn't help as much as other things do, or has more drawbacks than other things do, it will get pushed aside and anyone who's "stupid" enough to use it will become an object of scorn and ridicule. Terms such as L2P or GOML are (in my opinion) all about following along with whatever the "experts" say. It reminds me of a scene from a movie-- Midnight Express, I think?-- where a group of prisoners are pacing mindlessly in a circle around an object, all going at the same pace and in the same direction. Then the hero of the movie decides to be defiant and buck the flow, so he turns around and starts to pace in the opposite direction. The other prisoners freak out and start to yell at him and hit him for "going the wrong way."

You just have to be daring enough, and deaf enough, to do your own thing if you really want to, regardless of how anyone else reacts to it. If you're wanting to do some sort of group activity-- i.e., something that can't be soloed-- then you can try to find a group who will be fine with letting you do your thing your way, who won't freak out and start flailing away at you for refusing to march to the beat of the same drum that they do.

The thing with HA is how it is much easier than traditional for several reasons. I know now not everyone finds the ease of use with a HA build but the top end of the build is easier than the top end of traditional, and has the same result. Hence exactly why people are making oakenHA sorcerer the possible meta. But regardless, my biggest and most important issue has to do with endgamers. And I absolutely and entirely agree with your description. I’ve always felt like playing how I want to requires ZOS to shepherd the pack. Luckily, how I want to play aligns with ZOS’ values… I don’t want to do HA (nerf is because HA is too close to traditional) and I love doing mechanics. But nearly everyone wants to make things as easy as possible. Full burn through mechanics was how things were before but ZOS introduced overburn as a common occurrence and it protected mechanics. That’s all I want, for ZOS to protect traditional builds by shaking endgamers off of oakenHA. I guess thanks for the confidence though, I’ve never tried to ask to go against the wishes of group leads. I just don’t think it’s worth the possible scene, let alone with the high chance of in the group (or at this point, any group. Literally no guild group is safe) hearing at least one person complain about the build they’re willingly using themselves. At the very least I want to avoid the negativity… and that I cannot escape from.

I’ve always tried to be the endgamer I wish I had when I was new. No straight to the META as the only option, no “it’s old content it’s so easy”, no “your DPS is too low for my standards even though there’s no DPS check”. I make my own builds that work, keeping a theme to them. I worked my own way to 100k. I don’t even own kilt. It was a long road. I was a frost warden before it became the “only way to play magden”. But this oakenHA thing has been my match. All that work, all the joy of getting things done the way I want to, and now I can’t even confidently get into groups I want to play with, even with people I know. And it’s only getting worse. My only hope is ZOS continues nerfing oakenHA until endgame lets go of it. I guess unless ZOS wants to buff traditional builds but again, mechanics.

I hope people can see why I’m so deep into these threads. People who are new are doing content at levels they hadn’t before while my endgame is crashing and burning with no fire extinguisher and no fire escape. There is no “play with people who agree with you” when 99% of endgame wants to do things the easiest way. Out of all the people I know, I can only be confident that three (3) of them wouldn’t pull a “you should use oakenHA its so much easier” on me. Three.

I'm confused. The single example of a particular achievement for fighting 3 bosses at once aside, can you contribute more to a group with a LA build or a HA build? If it's LA, why would anybody ask you to use HA aside?

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Why should there be an easy mode for hardmodes?

This actually strikes me as kind of funny, because I think the reason so many players are so hung up (in my opinion) on their DPS is because they want to make the content easier for them to clear. As Rich put it in his streams (if I can remember the way he put it), players like to find the path of least resistance, or something to that effect. This attitude isn't necessarily true of everyone, at least not in equal degrees, but generally speaking (and whether we're talking about single-player RPGs or MMORPGs) players try to find attribute spreads, skills, weapons, and armor that increases their chances of surviving the most difficult foes and kill things more quickly. In short, pretty much everyone is looking for their own "easy mode," whether they're doing it on their own through "theory crafting" or just following builds that the "experts" have posted. Why should the players who happen to use HAs be viewed and treated any differently in that respect than the players who prefer to use LA weaving with the "correct" ability bar setups and skill rotations which they practice for hours or days on end until they can do it perfectly and almost automatically via "muscle memory"?

Soarora wrote: »

I know that there are but that doesn’t change the fact I want to DPS and I cannot find a group that will let me do that on my own build.

I think that's a problem caused primarily by player attitudes and prejudices. As far as I've ever seen in gaming, it really doesn't matter what the devs put into a game, or how they nerf or buff things after the fact to try to maintain "balance," because no matter what is added to the game or changed later on, there will always be players who will try to find a way to capitalize on (or "exploit," if you will, but not in the sense of abusing an unintended glitch for unfair advantage) anything and everything in the game. If it doesn't help as much as other things do, or has more drawbacks than other things do, it will get pushed aside and anyone who's "stupid" enough to use it will become an object of scorn and ridicule. Terms such as L2P or GOML are (in my opinion) all about following along with whatever the "experts" say. It reminds me of a scene from a movie-- Midnight Express, I think?-- where a group of prisoners are pacing mindlessly in a circle around an object, all going at the same pace and in the same direction. Then the hero of the movie decides to be defiant and buck the flow, so he turns around and starts to pace in the opposite direction. The other prisoners freak out and start to yell at him and hit him for "going the wrong way."

You just have to be daring enough, and deaf enough, to do your own thing if you really want to, regardless of how anyone else reacts to it. If you're wanting to do some sort of group activity-- i.e., something that can't be soloed-- then you can try to find a group who will be fine with letting you do your thing your way, who won't freak out and start flailing away at you for refusing to march to the beat of the same drum that they do.

The thing with HA is how it is much easier than traditional for several reasons. I know now not everyone finds the ease of use with a HA build but the top end of the build is easier than the top end of traditional, and has the same result. Hence exactly why people are making oakenHA sorcerer the possible meta. But regardless, my biggest and most important issue has to do with endgamers. And I absolutely and entirely agree with your description. I’ve always felt like playing how I want to requires ZOS to shepherd the pack. Luckily, how I want to play aligns with ZOS’ values… I don’t want to do HA (nerf is because HA is too close to traditional) and I love doing mechanics. But nearly everyone wants to make things as easy as possible. Full burn through mechanics was how things were before but ZOS introduced overburn as a common occurrence and it protected mechanics. That’s all I want, for ZOS to protect traditional builds by shaking endgamers off of oakenHA. I guess thanks for the confidence though, I’ve never tried to ask to go against the wishes of group leads. I just don’t think it’s worth the possible scene, let alone with the high chance of in the group (or at this point, any group. Literally no guild group is safe) hearing at least one person complain about the build they’re willingly using themselves. At the very least I want to avoid the negativity… and that I cannot escape from.

I’ve always tried to be the endgamer I wish I had when I was new. No straight to the META as the only option, no “it’s old content it’s so easy”, no “your DPS is too low for my standards even though there’s no DPS check”. I make my own builds that work, keeping a theme to them. I worked my own way to 100k. I don’t even own kilt. It was a long road. I was a frost warden before it became the “only way to play magden”. But this oakenHA thing has been my match. All that work, all the joy of getting things done the way I want to, and now I can’t even confidently get into groups I want to play with, even with people I know. And it’s only getting worse. My only hope is ZOS continues nerfing oakenHA until endgame lets go of it. I guess unless ZOS wants to buff traditional builds but again, mechanics.

I hope people can see why I’m so deep into these threads. People who are new are doing content at levels they hadn’t before while my endgame is crashing and burning with no fire extinguisher and no fire escape. There is no “play with people who agree with you” when 99% of endgame wants to do things the easiest way. Out of all the people I know, I can only be confident that three (3) of them wouldn’t pull a “you should use oakenHA its so much easier” on me. Three.

I'm confused. The single example of a particular achievement for fighting 3 bosses at once aside, can you contribute more to a group with a LA build or a HA build? If it's LA, why would anybody ask you to use HA aside?

I don't get it either! Yes, my normal build is good. I hold my own in content and I supply debuffs for the group. I also have decent minor toughness uptimes if there's no other warden. I have completed dungeon trifectas on that build. And yet there are groups (random dungeons, dungeon HMs for pledge, veteran trials not limited to AS) I cannot join because they are oakenHA only. If I were to roll up as the only traditional build to a trial I'd be told it'd be better if I wore oakensoul because the tank won't run yoln for one person. And this is exactly my problem. Vast majority of endgamers want the easiest way to complete the hardest content. Right now, despite any personal experience of those outside of endgame, the easiest way to complete the hardest content is oakenHA, particularly sorcerer. I have seen this happen at least 6 times with completely different people involved. Endgame needs to let go of oakenHA because this will only get worse.

I realize the parallels between me not being able to do content and oakenHA not being able to do content but please remember that the very same people who are doing this to endgame are the ones complaining about how it's so easy, how they "have" to use the build because it's there. I've said it once and I will say it again, my complaints about oakenHA do not come from looking at numbers, it does not come from searching for something to be mad about, it does not come from wanting anyone to suffer. My complaints about oakenHA come from my experience with endgamers.

Edit: and it'd be one thing if it was a group setup with 2-bar HA builds and empower given by a support and everything working around there being HA. It'd be one thing if there were HA-centric guilds. But it's not and these are guilds I have been in for over a year, if not longer. These people can use traditional builds. This content doesn't even have any basis in needing HA builds over traditional builds. But this is what endgame is becoming.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Genuinely curious here, but for everyone complaining about HA builds having "too much damage", "being too tanky" etc,

Were you all complaining about templars in the past that could just spam jabs (1 button every 1.5 seconds) that could still clear all content while having infinite healing and plenty of sustain thanks to super long duration sustain abilities like Rune (one cast per 30s to minute) or ele drain (same duration).

That same plar build was clearing vVH in like 15-20 minutes with just jabs and the occasional wall of elements. Was that not as OP as HA builds, or was that build ok because they were pressing a button every 1.5 seconds instead of holding down LMB and pressing a skill once every 2 seconds? IIRC, there was also a video a few months back of post nerf plar completing vVH trifecta in about 20-25 minutes just using jabs. This is with the plar damage/jabs nerfs.

I am genuinely curious about this because I used to run a stamplar and with a traditional 2 bar build (bow back, DW front), and despite being a stamDD, I was still able to reliably fill the healer role in all 4man content (including DLC HMs and vet group arenas) and most trials (including vet) without any significant drop in DPS (still pulled roughly 30% of total dps) and I wasn't even as tanky as I could have been had I been a magplar instead of a stamplar, yet I never heard any complaints about "templars being too OP", or "plars are EZmode and trivialize all the content and achievements done with other classes" or "you got that achievement on a plar therefore it doesn't count".

Plar was (and still is) considered one of the best solo classes in the game for PvE. There was also a time when groups were majority plars with a few sorcs + a DK/cro tank. Undaunted Orbs weren't even considered back then since everyone had access to shards for group sustain and healers were almost non existent or they were just another plar DD that had an extra heal or 2 slotted because everyone was self healing so much from jabs.

I am not trying to be facetious or anything, I am genuinely curious why there is so much discussion around HA oakensorc in particular when there have been plenty of "easymode" builds in the past that essentially did everything that the HA builds currently do that is being complained about, yet I can't recall anywhere near this level of discourse around those builds (from either side of the discussion).

As for oaken players not doing/dying to mechanics, have people considered maybe trying to teach/help them in a friendly way?
If they refuse that help (especially if it is done in a friendly manner), then that same player will still struggle/die to mechanics with a 2 bar or tank build anyway (and likely do so on normal mode too) and that has nothing to do with oakensoul and everything to do with a specific players attitude. That is simply a player who refuses to learn or grow and no "carry" or "EZmode" build will ever help them in clearing content.
However you'll find that most players using oakensorc will be more than happy to learn the mechanics, especially if that is their first time in vet content and they are struggling with it and it is explained to them in a friendly way and not being condescending towards them.
Most players that are new to vet content aren't even aware that there are different mechanics added to vet that don't exist in normal mode and even more mechanics again for HM too.
I know when I started to do more Vet content a long time ago, I wasn't aware of some of the differences between normal to vet and vet to HM (vet to HM especially) as I initially expected the same mechanics as normal, just that they would hit harder, and that the boss had more health. But I had people explain them to me in a friendly way and as a result, I was able to learn the mechanics, improve as a player and actually help the group to clear the content instead of holding them back.
What also helped was playing an "easier/more forgiving" build on plar that allowed me to pay more attention to the mechanics and pick them up easier than if I was trying to concentrate on the BiS piano rotation of a traditional build on another class. As such, because I was able to learn those mechanics quicker and easier, it opened up the ability for myself to complete those same mechanics on other classes that require more APM and focus on rotation to perform their rotations than plar required.

Yes actually, genuinely, I didn't like templars for the same reason I didn't like HA builds originally. PUGs. Templars were the ones running ahead and soloing everything without dying, then it became the HA builds doing the same exact thing. But now I don't have that happen so much so my problem is with LFGs. If I was in endgame at the time I probably would've been frustrated about templars too. I don't think someone asking for mechanics explained has anything to do with if they're using HA or not. Actually, over time I've seen less and less people communicate when they're new to a dungeon but maybe it's just that I stopped doing it since I am no longer new to dungeons.

I am a casual adult player as the majority of players in this game and who is here to have FUN after work and to treat myself I spend money on this game. As I see we have 2 options to get good dps. HA or 2 bars LA weaving. I dont enjoy LA weaving so I wont play it. If HA wont be good enough after nerf I wont play the game and go spend my money in another game.

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

[Snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Soarora wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Genuinely curious here, but for everyone complaining about HA builds having "too much damage", "being too tanky" etc,

Were you all complaining about templars in the past that could just spam jabs (1 button every 1.5 seconds) that could still clear all content while having infinite healing and plenty of sustain thanks to super long duration sustain abilities like Rune (one cast per 30s to minute) or ele drain (same duration).

That same plar build was clearing vVH in like 15-20 minutes with just jabs and the occasional wall of elements. Was that not as OP as HA builds, or was that build ok because they were pressing a button every 1.5 seconds instead of holding down LMB and pressing a skill once every 2 seconds? IIRC, there was also a video a few months back of post nerf plar completing vVH trifecta in about 20-25 minutes just using jabs. This is with the plar damage/jabs nerfs.

I am genuinely curious about this because I used to run a stamplar and with a traditional 2 bar build (bow back, DW front), and despite being a stamDD, I was still able to reliably fill the healer role in all 4man content (including DLC HMs and vet group arenas) and most trials (including vet) without any significant drop in DPS (still pulled roughly 30% of total dps) and I wasn't even as tanky as I could have been had I been a magplar instead of a stamplar, yet I never heard any complaints about "templars being too OP", or "plars are EZmode and trivialize all the content and achievements done with other classes" or "you got that achievement on a plar therefore it doesn't count".

Plar was (and still is) considered one of the best solo classes in the game for PvE. There was also a time when groups were majority plars with a few sorcs + a DK/cro tank. Undaunted Orbs weren't even considered back then since everyone had access to shards for group sustain and healers were almost non existent or they were just another plar DD that had an extra heal or 2 slotted because everyone was self healing so much from jabs.

I am not trying to be facetious or anything, I am genuinely curious why there is so much discussion around HA oakensorc in particular when there have been plenty of "easymode" builds in the past that essentially did everything that the HA builds currently do that is being complained about, yet I can't recall anywhere near this level of discourse around those builds (from either side of the discussion).

As for oaken players not doing/dying to mechanics, have people considered maybe trying to teach/help them in a friendly way?
If they refuse that help (especially if it is done in a friendly manner), then that same player will still struggle/die to mechanics with a 2 bar or tank build anyway (and likely do so on normal mode too) and that has nothing to do with oakensoul and everything to do with a specific players attitude. That is simply a player who refuses to learn or grow and no "carry" or "EZmode" build will ever help them in clearing content.
However you'll find that most players using oakensorc will be more than happy to learn the mechanics, especially if that is their first time in vet content and they are struggling with it and it is explained to them in a friendly way and not being condescending towards them.
Most players that are new to vet content aren't even aware that there are different mechanics added to vet that don't exist in normal mode and even more mechanics again for HM too.
I know when I started to do more Vet content a long time ago, I wasn't aware of some of the differences between normal to vet and vet to HM (vet to HM especially) as I initially expected the same mechanics as normal, just that they would hit harder, and that the boss had more health. But I had people explain them to me in a friendly way and as a result, I was able to learn the mechanics, improve as a player and actually help the group to clear the content instead of holding them back.
What also helped was playing an "easier/more forgiving" build on plar that allowed me to pay more attention to the mechanics and pick them up easier than if I was trying to concentrate on the BiS piano rotation of a traditional build on another class. As such, because I was able to learn those mechanics quicker and easier, it opened up the ability for myself to complete those same mechanics on other classes that require more APM and focus on rotation to perform their rotations than plar required.

Yes actually, genuinely, I didn't like templars for the same reason I didn't like HA builds originally. PUGs. Templars were the ones running ahead and soloing everything without dying, then it became the HA builds doing the same exact thing. But now I don't have that happen so much so my problem is with LFGs. If I was in endgame at the time I probably would've been frustrated about templars too. I don't think someone asking for mechanics explained has anything to do with if they're using HA or not. Actually, over time I've seen less and less people communicate when they're new to a dungeon but maybe it's just that I stopped doing it since I am no longer new to dungeons.

The asking for help with mechanics paragraph was more directed to another reply earlier on, but I couldn't find it quickly so left it as some helpful advice to those who may be frustrated with HA build players being constantly dead on the floor (also why I spoiler'd it).

It might just be the fact that I wasn't active on the forums until late last year (I've been playing since 2015 and loosely followed the forums on and off since probably late 2016) that I hadn't seen/noticed the discourse around "easy builds" until now, but from what I saw, it still seemed like plars weren't as contentious as HA currently are, maybe I just missed it or didn't notice it.

Even in game I wasn't noticing any "Must use 'insert current easy mode build here' to join this group", (I was joining as stamplar, warden, sorc and DK, but mostly sorc (no HA)). What I was seeing a lot of was "link achieve for vet "insert trial name here" run". Maybe this division of requiring specific builds in LFGs is a new thing?

Also, from what I've seen, most of the "end game" content being cleared by average players using HA builds is old content anyway (vAS, vMoL, craglorn trials, etc) unless the players are already top tier (or at least at that end game level) and have already cleared (or have already been progging) that content on traditional 2 bar LA weaving builds and were looking to clear it in new ways. At least that's who I've noticed is clearing the recent trials and DLC dungeon trifectas with HA builds.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this view point of others taking the easier route affecting my enjoyment of the game. I guess it comes down to what each player wants out of the game and who they play the game with. Tbh I don't really care what others want from the game as long as it's not directly hindering my enjoyment of the game (which in PvE is very hard to do outside of being deliberately toxic or worse, which goes against ToS anyway) and I tend to stick with friends/guildies when doing PvE since we all basically want the same thing from there anyway (which for the most part is the gear).

And yes, I do currently run a HA oakensorc for PvE, but that is because my sorc is my main and the character I enjoy and want to play. I do wish (and would prefer) there was a way to play the class without pets or HA, but that will only come about when zos finally decides to focus on other non-pet aspects of the class which are currently extremely lacking (see basically non-existent).

nemesrichard wrote: »

I am a casual adult player as the majority of players in this game and who is here to have FUN after work and to treat myself I spend money on this game. As I see we have 2 options to get good dps. HA or 2 bars LA weaving. I dont enjoy LA weaving so I wont play it. If HA wont be good enough after nerf I wont play the game and go spend my money in another game.

OsUfi wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Oh my days!

Why are so many people in this thread so angry about HA builds enabling people to participate in more aspects of the game? Why does it matter?

There's far more people complaining about people who hate HA builds than actual people who hate HA builds.

Pls read through this and the other threads and drink a shot after every negative comment welcoming the nerf and telling negative comments about HA users. Friendly advice call the ambulance before it.

Couple of things, when U35 dropped (or was during PTS) all casuals cheered than endgamers getting *** and if you took a shot for every pro nerf for U35 you'd get an alcohol poising very fast so the tables have turned.
But back to your statement:
First of all you can have 2 bar builds without having to attack with the new mythic as it nerfs all of your LA's so that's a third option for less experienced people.
Second, HA sorcs are getting a 2-3% overall nerf that's it I really don't see the reason to panic almost every build gets slightly nerfed here and then and losing 3% overall dps is peanuts. Don't forget HA is around 40% of your overall damage on oaken HA sorc build, so very small precentage of your damage gets nerfed it's not like your build gets a flat 10% nerf! So anything you did on your sorc will still be available just that a fight will take couple of extra seconds that's it no need to panic. But like always people panic like crazy mostly people that have no idea how the game works (not you specifically but a lot of forum dwellers here) and when you show them facts that what they say is false and the nerf is way less sever they start screeching for no reason.
A lot of people crying that their build is barely working in PTS well few things, PTS has many bugs for example the dummy buffs don't fully work and class passives don't always work either so that can effect parses as well.
So tldr don't worry your build isn't getting gutted just a small tune up that's it.