Why do some people hate HA?

OsUfi

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Because some elite players feel threatened by a small minority of players who were able to exploit heavy attack builds to reach numbers that are not achievable by the average user who is either disabled / or a casual player who wants a more similar combat to Skyrim (I fall into both of these ) I hit currently 60k on a trial parse dummy and that works for me I can kill world bosses and do most dungeons ok.

Even tho 2 bar builds out perform and those who got High numbers with 1 bar were already experience high end 2 bar parsers. But here we are.

Wao. This made me realize - people who argue against HA builds claim that "it's not fair that the best HA 1bar parse outperform the middle-high LA 2bars parses", when it's an unfair comparison to begin with. Why aren't we comparing the best parses on both sides, and if considering the middle parses on 2bars we still compare them to the best 1bars instead of the more rightful middle 1bar parses?

Why a middle player should be compared with a top player? It seems people assumes everyone using 1bar can achieve the same top results but reality says something different. 1bar HA users more often than not aren't super optimised - some are, for sure, not everyone and I bet not even the majority. Most are casuals, the targeted audience. So why pretend they are top players to apply a not needed nerf?
Nerfing based on the 1% makes no sense.

That's a wierd realization You had than. I havn't seen anyone comparing top LA setup to a medium HA setup. Usually both setups are compared at similar level either highest or average. If anything I've actually seen comments where average one bar HA setups were compared to top two bar setups.
Mid tier two bar player is achieving worse results than mid tier one bar player and that is one of the main main issues with one bar HA setups, that they eliminated a sense to bring anything else.

It's pretty ironic that You are saying that nerfing based on 1% makes no sense when many people who defend one bar HA setups are using top 1% of playerbase and their parses to claim that two bar LA setups are way stronger so HA shouldn't be touched. So it seems like nerfing something based on 1% of playerbase makes no sense but using the same 1% as main argument to defend HA setups is fine.

I feel you're doing some mental gymnastics with this one.

First, the situation that's brought up the most in these threads is people with mid 2bars accusing people with top 1bar. And if we have to define "mid" on both sides: mid 2bars make 65-80K while mid 1bar make 55-70K. So no, 1bar doesn't surpass 2 bars in an average scenario. (You could say it's easier to achieve but that's not a valid argument against it, since it's exactly the whole point this play style was created for).

Second, 1 bar people keep referring to top 1% 2bars parses exactly because 2bars people keep referring to top 1% 1bar parses. It's just a congruent reaction. Not a single 1 bar guy is asking for a nerf to top 1% 2bars users, while the other way around is... You see? (Hence the reason of the title of this thread i suppose)

Edited to add details.

Don't you just love how those who are against HA builds always leave out this fact and every time it's brought up, its nothing but complete denial and deflection.

[snip]

Likewise.

As I said in my first post, I'm not against HA. I, like many others, just think it needs a wee tweak. Which is what were getting.

You'll still be able to wreck everything holding down a mouse button. Vet trials will need a little bit (not much) more effort. They're veteran. They should. It's why I never do vet trials, I know I'm not good enough.

If they go hard nerfing HA, I'll be annoyed.

But this hand waving "everyone who thinks HA is OP is clearly gatekeeping and firmly against accessibility" stuff is just rubbish.

[edited to remove quote]

FrancisCrawford

Sheezabeast wrote: »

I'm just going to address the elephant in the room, as politely and bluntly as I can. The entire crux of the agitation comes from the blanket of "accessibility" ZOS is using. And how there is a big difference between people with disabilities and physical limitations falling under that blanket, and people who simply need to practice their rotation and are not that skilled at DPS using the same "accessibility" claim to use the one bar builds. If you point out the lack of skill it takes, how it might be 'dumbing down the game' suddenly you are not just addressing people who legit *can* improve but are using this simple way to get easy numbers, and people who are physically or mentally limited using this accessible build.

And what would be wrong with that? Why do you care whether a person has major disabilities or minor disabilities or just has so many work and family responsibilities that they don't have a lot of time to practice their skills on a dummy? Or whether they just don't LIKE practicing at great length on a dummy? Or any combination of those factors?

robwolf666

nemesrichard wrote: »

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

Just play the way you want to play, if other people don't like it, tough, you're playing for your enjoyment, not theirs.

Just... don't use your style for evil, like trolling other players.

Yazrz

OsUfi wrote: »

But this hand waving "everyone who thinks HA is OP is clearly gatekeeping and firmly against accessibility" stuff is just rubbish.

Well, the fact is that HA is vastly behind LA/2 bar builds.

So there is really no other reason than gatekeeping and just being toxic in general.

Anifaas

People who play the game one way are upset other people play the game differently. Some even think that the manner in which you press buttons during your entertainment experience should come with an entertainment penalty if you do not press enough buttons fast enough. Many have forgotten (or don't understand?) that ESO is just a videogame and instead invest in such as though it was a battle for survival, like the Hunger Games, constantly trying to bring other players down in an effort to make themselves more prominent.

Nobody at WoW complains that BM hunters do comparable DPS to Affliction warlocks while using a substantially simpler rotation. But for some reason, over here we keep trying to homogenize the play styles so that everyone is expected by the glitterati to play a hybrid 2h/dual-wield the same way regardless of class. At least over here at ESO there is way more engaging content to do if you don't want to play the min-max reindeer games than in WoW where its just raid/m+ or die.

Yazrz

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

ZOS is the one claiming it's for accessibility.

They do, and still you are misrepresenting the argument since you're comparing a situation where someone actively takes away a parking space or bathroom stall from someone who needs it, which is clearly not the case.

Unless you claim that people asking for blanket nerfs are removing parking spots from those that need them. Which is pretty gross, i agree.

How many people using the special accommodations the HA builds create are actually using Accessibility mode in game?

Yeah....next to no one using the HA builds are using the accompanying special mode.

What does that have to do with anything?

You made a statement which was incorrect and disingenuous. Just admit that.

Sheezabeast

Yazrz wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

ZOS is the one claiming it's for accessibility.

They do, and still you are misrepresenting the argument since you're comparing a situation where someone actively takes away a parking space or bathroom stall from someone who needs it, which is clearly not the case.

Unless you claim that people asking for blanket nerfs are removing parking spots from those that need them. Which is pretty gross, i agree.

How many people using the special accommodations the HA builds create are actually using Accessibility mode in game?

Yeah....next to no one using the HA builds are using the accompanying special mode.

What does that have to do with anything?

You made a statement which was incorrect and disingenuous. Just admit that.

ZOS created a literal crutch for people with physical disabilities, to open content up to them, which is wonderful. It's the disingenuous people that don't need the crutch getting it nerfed.

Liguar

Sheezabeast wrote: »

How many people using the special accommodations the HA builds create are actually using Accessibility mode in game?

Yeah....next to no one using the HA builds are using the accompanying special mode.

As far as accessibility goes, I'm pretty sure a lot of people change friendly and enemy ground effect marker colours, adjust sound effect levels, change keybinds, reduce spell effects and all the plethora of options we can tweak to make the game more comfortable to play. (Which is great. It would be even better if there were more things like hiding pets.)

So I'm not really sure where you're going, apart from trying to sidle away from the whole parking space analogy.

Yazrz

Sheezabeast wrote: »

ZOS created a literal crutch for people with physical disabilities, to open content up to them, which is wonderful. It's the disingenuous people that don't need the crutch getting it nerfed.

No.
They added an item to allow for other gameplay styles than the 2bar meta.
Spouting lies does not make them true

Sheezabeast

Liguar wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

How many people using the special accommodations the HA builds create are actually using Accessibility mode in game?

Yeah....next to no one using the HA builds are using the accompanying special mode.

As far as accessibility goes, I'm pretty sure a lot of people change friendly and enemy ground effect marker colours, adjust sound effect levels, change keybinds, reduce spell effects and all the plethora of options we can tweak to make the game more comfortable to play. (Which is great. It would be even better if there were more things like hiding pets.)

So I'm not really sure where you're going, apart from trying to sidle away from the whole parking space analogy.

They asked why it bothered me, I gave them an analogy to best explain the ick behind it. I take it very literal. I have a literal interpretation of ZOS providing options for disabled people. I see in game in my guilds, people picking this option because it's 'easy DPS' and not because it accommodates their limited physical abilities. That attitude is where the ick comes from. For the people ZOS aimed the accessibility at I think it's a wonderful, considerate accommodation. [snip]

[edited for hate speech]

Yazrz

Sheezabeast wrote: »

They asked why it bothered me, I gave them an analogy to best explain the ick behind it. I take it very literal. I have a literal interpretation of ZOS providing options for disabled people. I see in game in my guilds, people picking this option because it's 'easy DPS' and not because it accommodates their limited physical abilities. That attitude is where the ick comes from. For the people ZOS aimed the accessibility at I think it's a wonderful, considerate accommodation. [snip]

Please stop with the lies.

From the PTS patch notes of 8.1.0
"The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds..."

[edited to remove quote]

Ph1p

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[snip]

Here is a >85k parse holding down just the left mouse button and using a few ultimates, and there are more examples if you search for them.

But that's not the point. The point is that the learning curve to get to maxed 120k+ LA parses is much higher than the one to maxed 90k+ HA parses. The same player who struggles to break 50k with LA builds now has a shot at 80k with an HA setup. That's why HA builds are so popular and a great alternative in the first place.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It means absolutely everything when people are trying to compare top end HA dps to mid range LA dps as their whole reason for nerfing the build.

They do because that's the actual baseline: The same player trying out HA vs. LA builds and being able to go from 45k to 70k, for example. Why would you compare this player to a different and more experienced one, who can parse 80k with an LA setup?

Most calls for (limited and targeted) nerfs I've seen also come from specific players clearing content with their familiar LA build, then trying it out with an Oakensorc setup, and experiencing a marked drop in difficulty and challenge. Addressing that kind of imbalance I'd support, while calling for nerfs purely based on trial dummy numbers is indeed unhelpful.

[edited to remove quote]

Sheezabeast

Yazrz wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

They asked why it bothered me, I gave them an analogy to best explain the ick behind it. I take it very literal. I have a literal interpretation of ZOS providing options for disabled people. I see in game in my guilds, people picking this option because it's 'easy DPS' and not because it accommodates their limited physical abilities. That attitude is where the ick comes from. For the people ZOS aimed the accessibility at I think it's a wonderful, considerate accommodation. [snip]

Please stop with the lies.

From the PTS patch notes of 8.1.0
"The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds..."

How about you include more of that quote? Like this part.

"We now feel comfortable that the set will still be incredibly impactful for its target audience but in a much more balanced way."

Or, for full context:

Oakensoul: This set now grants the Minor versions of Courage, Berserk, Force, Protection, and Heroism, rather than the Major versions. This set now also grants Minor Mending.

"The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds by providing many bonuses that you would get from running extra abilities on your back bar, and a few other named sources that may come from coordinated groups to help make up for the flexibility and specialization loss of having 5 ability choices instead of 10. While we did see the suggestions we’re incorporating now, we didn’t want to go too hard on the set after the heavy nerfs to the original form without some more concrete metrics and evidence, which we have gathered since Update 34 had launched. We now feel comfortable that the set will still be incredibly impactful for its target audience but in a much more balanced way."

This applies to 3 people:
1) People under level 15
2) People genuinely ignorant that they have a second weapon slot, because they don't know any better/have not had enough game experience to discover this yet.
3) People who run Werewolf, and are locked into one singular bar which DOUBLED as an Ultimate.

ZOS is using this phrasing because it was applying to WW builds, and from the PTS, the builds created to squeeze the most DPS out of the least amount of effort, on top of the genuine people who were the target audience for accessibility for disabilities. Like I said in my first comment, this blanket statement by ZOS is the whole reason this is like this.

[edited to remove quote]

Yazrz

@Sheezabeast That quote literally just claims. "Its target audience". It would be anyone using the build.

ADarklore

I am on the fence with this. I only run solo content, but I can see why a player who spends tons of time trying to perfect their rotation gets frustrated when someone comes along, holds down one button, and does close to the same amount of damage. I get it. However, WHY do you care what other people are doing or how they're playing the game... why not just focus on YOU?

Scoreboards... that's another story, but I don't recall people topping scoreboards running a HA build... perhaps I'm wrong.

What bothers me is when ZOS nerfs Empower by a lowly 10%... streamers are running around making click-bait titles such as "Oakensoul nerfed..." When in fact, it was NOT Oakensoul that was nerfed, it was Empower, which also impacts OTHER skills as well, not just Oakensoul. Besides that, the DPS loss is negligible and I applaud ZOS for making a minor tweak that seems to have appeased the 'HA builds need to be nerfed' crowd while at the same time keeping HA builds viable for those with disabilities or just prefer that style of gameplay. Myself, I use Oakensoul on almost all my builds, it was because of Oakensoul that I started enjoying the game again, but I rarely ever use a HA build with it.

So personally, I'm definitely OK with the Empower nerf and understand the reason for it. I just wish streamers would quit crying wolf by using Oakensoul as a clickbait to generate more attention for themselves.

LatentBuzzard

nemesrichard wrote: »

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

People hate them because they don't get to feel superior to the people using HA builds any more. That's pretty much it.

"Toxic casuals" are a very real thing but HA build hate is just the sort of pure distilled toxic elitism that makes their point for them.

Turtle_Bot

Ph1p wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for those claiming holding down left mouse button gives 80k+, that is complete lies and they know it, they just constantly perpetuate that myth because it confirms their own bias against the build.

Here is a >85k parse holding down just the left mouse button and using a few ultimates, and there are more examples if you search for them.

Still doing more than just "holding the left mouse button" or "putting a weight on the left mouse button and walking away" that many have claimed HA builds to be.

I get it, HA builds are easier to pick up and play compared to LA builds, but the solution isn't to nerf HA builds into being "normal/overland content only" builds like many (not all) seem to want to make them. The solution is to make LA builds easier to pick up and play, while providing options for those who cannot use those LA builds for whatever reason (be it disability, ping, or any other reason) and this is what ZOS is doing with their newest mythic that removes the need for LA weaving for dps purposes and only keeps it necessary for ulti gen (one LA every few seconds for this purpose should be more than manageable) making it much less punishing and easier to pick up and learn compared to traditional LA builds while also providing a bridge between HA and LA builds for players who want to keep improving towards that top end level.

Ph1p wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It means absolutely everything when people are trying to compare top end HA dps to mid range LA dps as their whole reason for nerfing the build.

They do because that's the actual baseline: The same player trying out HA vs. LA builds and being able to go from 45k to 70k, for example. Why would you compare this player to a different and more experienced one, who can parse 80k with an LA setup?

Most calls for (limited and targeted) nerfs I've seen also come from specific players clearing content with their familiar LA build, then trying it out with an Oakensorc setup, and experiencing a marked drop in difficulty and challenge. Addressing that kind of imbalance I'd support, while calling for nerfs purely based on trial dummy numbers is indeed unhelpful.

I am glad that Zos has decided not to listen to the unnecessary outcry on this one and only do small tweaks to HA builds instead of their usual sledge hammer approach.

I can't say for your experiences, but on my end, the vast majority of the calls I have seen regarding nerfing HA builds have been calls for huge nerfs (essentially gutting the build) that were based purely on trial dummy numbers and more specifically based on the trial dummy parses of top end players, so not even an average players trial dummy parse. There have been a few that have only wanted small targeted nerfs, but far too many jumping onto their points and using that to attempt to have the build gutted instead of tweaked.

It's why this topic has been so controversial, when it first popped up, there was a huge push by some to get the build essentially removed when all it needed was some minor tweaks if anything at all, this created a large push back and its just escalated to where we are now.

PrincessOfThieves

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

People hate them because they don't get to feel superior to the people using HA builds any more. That's pretty much it.

"Toxic casuals" are a very real thing but HA build hate is just the sort of pure distilled toxic elitism that makes their point for them.

Eh, I'm a casual player and I am just disheartened that I have to use a HA build because it's much better than anything else. It makes the gameplay extremely unfun and it's boring to use exactly the same build as everyone else. At least traditional builds are more flexible and you can tweak skills and sets to your liking. Oakensorc meta, on the other hand, is extremely limiting.
Before all of this, people in midgame builds would use all sorts of builds, but nowadays at least half of every trial group in my guild are Oakensorcs. And if you don't wanna use it, you have to work 10 times harder to achieve similar results (practicing rotation for hours+learning mechanics without safety net). It creates a huge imbalance in content difficulty and makes it pretty much impossible for anyone who wants to start trials but doesn't wanna use a HA build.

Turtle_Bot

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

People hate them because they don't get to feel superior to the people using HA builds any more. That's pretty much it.

"Toxic casuals" are a very real thing but HA build hate is just the sort of pure distilled toxic elitism that makes their point for them.

Eh, I'm a casual player and I am just disheartened that I have to use a HA build because it's much better than anything else. It makes the gameplay extremely unfun and it's boring to use exactly the same build as everyone else. At least traditional builds are more flexible and you can tweak skills and sets to your liking. Oakensorc meta, on the other hand, is extremely limiting.
Before all of this, people in midgame builds would use all sorts of builds, but nowadays at least half of every trial group in my guild are Oakensorcs. And if you don't wanna use it, you have to work 10 times harder to achieve similar results (practicing rotation for hours+learning mechanics without safety net). It creates a huge imbalance in content difficulty and makes it pretty much impossible for anyone who wants to start trials but doesn't wanna use a HA build.

This issue is what the latest mythic is attempting to solve and likely will.

It buffs your damage done to monsters by 15%, crit damage by 15% and a ton of pen while reducing damage of LA/HA by 99% making LA only useful for generating ultimate, not mandatory for hitting high dps allowing mid range players who don't like the HA playstyle to play a more traditional type of build that is more forgiving, it also gets very similar dps to most traditional builds, hitting 100k (with messed up rotations) or 95k (with no LA at all).

It seems like a good bridge for players to learn more traditional builds if they want that option while leaving HA builds be viable for those who need/enjoy them. It will also open up a lot more builds that don't rely on LA proc conditions to get that very high damage.

ADarklore

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

People hate them because they don't get to feel superior to the people using HA builds any more. That's pretty much it.

"Toxic casuals" are a very real thing but HA build hate is just the sort of pure distilled toxic elitism that makes their point for them.

Eh, I'm a casual player and I am just disheartened that I have to use a HA build because it's much better than anything else. It makes the gameplay extremely unfun and it's boring to use exactly the same build as everyone else. At least traditional builds are more flexible and you can tweak skills and sets to your liking. Oakensorc meta, on the other hand, is extremely limiting.
Before all of this, people in midgame builds would use all sorts of builds, but nowadays at least half of every trial group in my guild are Oakensorcs. And if you don't wanna use it, you have to work 10 times harder to achieve similar results (practicing rotation for hours+learning mechanics without safety net). It creates a huge imbalance in content difficulty and makes it pretty much impossible for anyone who wants to start trials but doesn't wanna use a HA build.

This is unequivocally false and has been proven time and time again, yet some people maintain this narrative based on similar viewpoints that have been pushed in-game. Nobody forces you to use a specific build and there will always be a BIS. The game is still flexible and clearly- as has been shown many times over- a two-bar build is still superior. However, it is not '10 times harder' by any means. But if you want an EASIER way of playing that can be successful in content but NOT top the scoreboard, then sure, that option is available... but you are not forced into it, and if you are, then you need to find a different group to run with.

This game is about playing how you want, and Oakensoul offers yet another option to play. If people want to play an easier rotation, that's their choice... ESO doesn't force you to play any specific way, it's up to the individual. But I will say Oakensoul has opened up a lot more of the game to players with disabilities or who struggle with bar-swapping, and anything that makes players enjoy the game more and keep playing, is extremely healthy for the game.

PrincessOfThieves

ADarklore wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

People hate them because they don't get to feel superior to the people using HA builds any more. That's pretty much it.

"Toxic casuals" are a very real thing but HA build hate is just the sort of pure distilled toxic elitism that makes their point for them.

Eh, I'm a casual player and I am just disheartened that I have to use a HA build because it's much better than anything else. It makes the gameplay extremely unfun and it's boring to use exactly the same build as everyone else. At least traditional builds are more flexible and you can tweak skills and sets to your liking. Oakensorc meta, on the other hand, is extremely limiting.
Before all of this, people in midgame builds would use all sorts of builds, but nowadays at least half of every trial group in my guild are Oakensorcs. And if you don't wanna use it, you have to work 10 times harder to achieve similar results (practicing rotation for hours+learning mechanics without safety net). It creates a huge imbalance in content difficulty and makes it pretty much impossible for anyone who wants to start trials but doesn't wanna use a HA build.

This is unequivocally false and has been proven time and time again, yet some people maintain this narrative based on similar viewpoints that have been pushed in-game. Nobody forces you to use a specific build and there will always be a BIS. The game is still flexible and clearly- as has been shown many times over- a two-bar build is still superior. However, it is not '10 times harder' by any means. But if you want an EASIER way of playing that can be successful in content but NOT top the scoreboard, then sure, that option is available... but you are not forced into it, and if you are, then you need to find a different group to run with.

This game is about playing how you want, and Oakensoul offers yet another option to play. If people want to play an easier rotation, that's their choice... ESO doesn't force you to play any specific way, it's up to the individual. But I will say Oakensoul has opened up a lot more of the game to players with disabilities or who struggle with bar-swapping, and anything that makes players enjoy the game more and keep playing, is extremely healthy for the game.

It hasn't been proven. People just want to keep their easy mode, and will keep saying that it's not an easy mode at all, they all just happen to love 1 bar sorcs.
I play both regular builds and Oaken, and Oaken is absurdly easy in comparison. It's not just an option, it's an option that's significantly better than anything else, which makes the choice itself meaningless. You either pick an OP build or you gimp yourself. And unlike all previous OP builds, you're guaranteed to get awesome results.

SkaiFaith

Just wanted to let this out of my chest: the fact HA "is better/easier" doesn't force you nor anybody else to use it. If people should only use what's best ESO would have 20 million players with the same build (and btw it wouldn't be a HA one). Thank the divines, people have the sanity to do what they want/like instead of just sticking with what's BiS.
You should use what you enjoy, and if something isn't for you then simply not use it.
If any guild is asking HA builds as a requirement the problem is said guild, not the build, I think this is self-evident.
(I won't go down the rabbit hole of the fact asking to nerf a play style you don't like but lots of people enjoy because they need it is quiet unemphatic)

Edit: boy oh boy, prepare yourselves for Necrom and the release of the next Mythic that will cause another cataclysm cause it creates a new play style that people will be ready to hate on.

ZOS_Icy

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FantasticFreddie

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

Shepoffire

It's brain dead. I've been running bow bow builds for years. Until I started using an oakensorc. I can stack all into Stam and not have to work about mag sustain at all., 34 k health with a warden in the group with a pretty hefty damage shield. That fack that it's that easy is in it self just redic.... It shouldn't be this easy and does need a balance.

Yazrz

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

Does this not imply that the issue with the light attack builds, that the damage scaling vs effort needs some balancing?
Or for that matter maybe the key is to enable more diversity in HA builds, so that the debuffs can be brought by HA players as well?

jaws343

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for those claiming holding down left mouse button gives 80k+, that is complete lies and they know it, they just constantly perpetuate that myth because it confirms their own bias against the build.

Here is a >85k parse holding down just the left mouse button and using a few ultimates, and there are more examples if you search for them.

Still doing more than just "holding the left mouse button" or "putting a weight on the left mouse button and walking away" that many have claimed HA builds to be.

I get it, HA builds are easier to pick up and play compared to LA builds, but the solution isn't to nerf HA builds into being "normal/overland content only" builds like many (not all) seem to want to make them. The solution is to make LA builds easier to pick up and play, while providing options for those who cannot use those LA builds for whatever reason (be it disability, ping, or any other reason) and this is what ZOS is doing with their newest mythic that removes the need for LA weaving for dps purposes and only keeps it necessary for ulti gen (one LA every few seconds for this purpose should be more than manageable) making it much less punishing and easier to pick up and learn compared to traditional LA builds while also providing a bridge between HA and LA builds for players who want to keep improving towards that top end level.

Ph1p wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It means absolutely everything when people are trying to compare top end HA dps to mid range LA dps as their whole reason for nerfing the build.

They do because that's the actual baseline: The same player trying out HA vs. LA builds and being able to go from 45k to 70k, for example. Why would you compare this player to a different and more experienced one, who can parse 80k with an LA setup?

Most calls for (limited and targeted) nerfs I've seen also come from specific players clearing content with their familiar LA build, then trying it out with an Oakensorc setup, and experiencing a marked drop in difficulty and challenge. Addressing that kind of imbalance I'd support, while calling for nerfs purely based on trial dummy numbers is indeed unhelpful.

I am glad that Zos has decided not to listen to the unnecessary outcry on this one and only do small tweaks to HA builds instead of their usual sledge hammer approach.

I can't say for your experiences, but on my end, the vast majority of the calls I have seen regarding nerfing HA builds have been calls for huge nerfs (essentially gutting the build) that were based purely on trial dummy numbers and more specifically based on the trial dummy parses of top end players, so not even an average players trial dummy parse. There have been a few that have only wanted small targeted nerfs, but far too many jumping onto their points and using that to attempt to have the build gutted instead of tweaked.

It's why this topic has been so controversial, when it first popped up, there was a huge push by some to get the build essentially removed when all it needed was some minor tweaks if anything at all, this created a large push back and its just escalated to where we are now.

Oaken sorc 100% hits 80k just holding the heavy attack button. I know, I run it and did it. Same build hits 97K when using skills. Not against the builds, but let's try to be honest here, 80K is doable for doing literally nothing but holding a button down for a few minutes.

TKo_ROUSE

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

TBH as a multi trifecta tank, i do not care at all about this. As in the effort provided portion. It doesn't bother me to do 3 times the CPM as my DD's as a tank. Although it does seem odd seeing the cast differential.


Lately I have done a lot of dungeon tri's and IR's for people. Sometimes I prefer they are in oakensoul so they don't spam die and I can be done faster. Oakensoul trivializes a lot of mechs that would one shot a normal DD. I literally watch DD's eat cones, jumps, and kites, any normal DD would be dead from those. I guarantee if you took half the people who got IR and last patch and made them play a 2 bar build they would be dead every other mech in vAS+2. Is that healthy for the game? I dont know. Probably not.

Two reason's I wouldn't take an Oakensorc in one of my groups would be, you need to optomize supports different for oakensorcs than other DDs because it provides courage. I would prefer a sweaty high damage core such as when a new trial is coming out.

Also yes a player can opt to do some runs with HA and some without. No that is not discrimination.....

TKo_ROUSE

nemesrichard wrote: »

First of all I don't play this game so long therefore I am aware I lack some knowledge on the game but what I experinced is not relevant to me being new.

As my main I chose MagPlar because I love paladin-like classes in mmos. I made my research about classes in general and I learnt that Templar is not the meta dps but has very good survivability. I didn't mind I thought I was going to be a healer when I learnt the game in end game group content.
I leveled my Templar mostly in dungeons and I noticed that my damage is quite bad compared to others but I thought they have sets and CP so thats why they do a lot better even if the game is scaled.
I got to 160 CP, collected the advised gear, read about MagPlar builds, tried them, learnt LA weaving yet in dungeons I made mediocre damage compared to others, only thing I was good for beaming the bosses. It became embarrasing to do dungeons with guild and friends I felt like a collectible pet in the group just running with the other but doing nothing important. I lost my wish to play with Templar any more and made sense the threads in forum complaing about Templar damage skills.
But then it occured to me that HA builds don't depend on classes they depend on sets so I gave it try. I collected the gear and went to try it first grinding CP in Verrant Morass and OMG I melted the mobs. Now when I go into dungeons I contribute to the group.

So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?

To answer your question, you are new, you don't need to make any decisions yet. Play how you want. Start by learning content in normal. Don't be afraid if your DPS isn't super high. Trust me every player starts there. If HA works for you great.

If you decide you like the game and want to do the hardest content, you probably should start committing to learning a 2 bar build. You will need to practice parsing on a dummy just like everyone else did. It is important to learn your rotation so it comes natural while you execute the mechanics of harder trials and dungeons.

For me it took probably about a year of playing to get my starting vet clears and hard modes. Another year from that to get 6 of 7 trial trifectas. It is a marathon not a race. Obviously this depends how much you play on average.

sarahthes

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

TBH as a multi trifecta tank, i do not care at all about this. As in the effort provided portion. It doesn't bother me to do 3 times the CPM as my DD's as a tank. Although it does seem odd seeing the cast differential.


Lately I have done a lot of dungeon tri's and IR's for people. Sometimes I prefer they are in oakensoul so they don't spam die and I can be done faster. Oakensoul trivializes a lot of mechs that would one shot a normal DD. I literally watch DD's eat cones, jumps, and kites, any normal DD would be dead from those. I guarantee if you took half the people who got IR and last patch and made them play a 2 bar build they would be dead every other mech in vAS+2. Is that healthy for the game? I dont know.

Two reason's I wouldn't take an Oakensorc in one of my groups would be, you need to optomize supports different for oakensorcs than other DDs because it provides courage. I would prefer a sweaty high damage core such as when a new trial is coming out.

Also yes a player can opt to do some runs with HA and some without. No that is not discrimination.....

It kills progression.

It's one thing to have skilled players memeing on HA builds (which some of the trifecta runs have been). It's another to have people pushed into content they're not ready for. Holding down one button and getting IR while eating kites and cones does not prepare you for harder content. You will sit there and stagnate, unable to progress further, because you didn't improve at reacting to targeted mechanics.

And if enough people complain about that, harder content will also get nerfed (again). Most of ESO endgame is trivially easy as it is for skilled players. If you make it even easier, they just leave the game and go on to another one where they actually feel challenged (perhaps one that actually gives meaningful rewards to clearing the hardest content in the game).