Why do some people hate HA?

wolfie1.0.

If you have been on the forums for any length of time you will always find that players like to complain about builds.

That's it really they just really like to complain about builds.

Sorcs, vampires, dks, werewolves, jabs, templars, cloak, stealth, 2h handles, lightning staves, inferno staves, mythic items, gear sets, cp, non cp, weaving.... it's all been complained about. It's just HA's tyrn in the rotation now.

TKo_ROUSE

sarahthes wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

TBH as a multi trifecta tank, i do not care at all about this. As in the effort provided portion. It doesn't bother me to do 3 times the CPM as my DD's as a tank. Although it does seem odd seeing the cast differential.


Lately I have done a lot of dungeon tri's and IR's for people. Sometimes I prefer they are in oakensoul so they don't spam die and I can be done faster. Oakensoul trivializes a lot of mechs that would one shot a normal DD. I literally watch DD's eat cones, jumps, and kites, any normal DD would be dead from those. I guarantee if you took half the people who got IR and last patch and made them play a 2 bar build they would be dead every other mech in vAS+2. Is that healthy for the game? I dont know.

Two reason's I wouldn't take an Oakensorc in one of my groups would be, you need to optomize supports different for oakensorcs than other DDs because it provides courage. I would prefer a sweaty high damage core such as when a new trial is coming out.

Also yes a player can opt to do some runs with HA and some without. No that is not discrimination.....

It kills progression.

It's one thing to have skilled players memeing on HA builds (which some of the trifecta runs have been). It's another to have people pushed into content they're not ready for. Holding down one button and getting IR while eating kites and cones does not prepare you for harder content. You will sit there and stagnate, unable to progress further, because you didn't improve at reacting to targeted mechanics.

And if enough people complain about that, harder content will also get nerfed (again). Most of ESO endgame is trivially easy as it is for skilled players. If you make it even easier, they just leave the game and go on to another one where they actually feel challenged (perhaps one that actually gives meaningful rewards to clearing the hardest content in the game).

I completely agree it kills progression. I did not mean to imply that I think it should get stronger or easier to get more content complete. I mention in my post a lot of these new players with IR would just spam die a normal run. The thing with vAS+2 though is I don't think they can make that trifecta hard to get with oakensoul without completely gutting the item or taking empower back off (which likely wont happen as they want an easy mode mythic for solo players and a bridge to base vet content). 15 minutes is just so long to do only 90 million damage. And you can only partially address the tankiness because you can't stop them from running resistance pots and bi stat food as they dont need sustain. So I think at this point IR is just a meme trifecta unless you are a support or have logs from a 2bar build.

FantasticFreddie

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

TBH as a multi trifecta tank, i do not care at all about this. As in the effort provided portion. It doesn't bother me to do 3 times the CPM as my DD's as a tank. Although it does seem odd seeing the cast differential.


Lately I have done a lot of dungeon tri's and IR's for people. Sometimes I prefer they are in oakensoul so they don't spam die and I can be done faster. Oakensoul trivializes a lot of mechs that would one shot a normal DD. I literally watch DD's eat cones, jumps, and kites, any normal DD would be dead from those. I guarantee if you took half the people who got IR and last patch and made them play a 2 bar build they would be dead every other mech in vAS+2. Is that healthy for the game? I dont know.

Two reason's I wouldn't take an Oakensorc in one of my groups would be, you need to optomize supports different for oakensorcs than other DDs because it provides courage. I would prefer a sweaty high damage core such as when a new trial is coming out.

Also yes a player can opt to do some runs with HA and some without. No that is not discrimination.....

It kills progression.

It's one thing to have skilled players memeing on HA builds (which some of the trifecta runs have been). It's another to have people pushed into content they're not ready for. Holding down one button and getting IR while eating kites and cones does not prepare you for harder content. You will sit there and stagnate, unable to progress further, because you didn't improve at reacting to targeted mechanics.

And if enough people complain about that, harder content will also get nerfed (again). Most of ESO endgame is trivially easy as it is for skilled players. If you make it even easier, they just leave the game and go on to another one where they actually feel challenged (perhaps one that actually gives meaningful rewards to clearing the hardest content in the game).

I completely agree it kills progression. I did not mean to imply that I think it should get stronger or easier to get more content complete. I mention in my post a lot of these new players with IR would just spam die a normal run. The thing with vAS+2 though is I don't think they can make that trifecta hard to get with oakensoul without completely gutting the item or taking empower back off (which likely wont happen as they want an easy mode mythic for solo players and a bridge to base vet content). 15 minutes is just so long to do only 90 million damage. And you can only partially address the tankiness because you can't stop them from running resistance pots and bi stat food as they dont need sustain. So I think at this point IR is just a meme trifecta unless you are a support or have logs from a 2bar build.

Honestly I don't hate EZ IR. I play a support role, so all it means for me is its easier to find group to actually poly farm with. I'm having a great time.

sarahthes

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

TBH as a multi trifecta tank, i do not care at all about this. As in the effort provided portion. It doesn't bother me to do 3 times the CPM as my DD's as a tank. Although it does seem odd seeing the cast differential.


Lately I have done a lot of dungeon tri's and IR's for people. Sometimes I prefer they are in oakensoul so they don't spam die and I can be done faster. Oakensoul trivializes a lot of mechs that would one shot a normal DD. I literally watch DD's eat cones, jumps, and kites, any normal DD would be dead from those. I guarantee if you took half the people who got IR and last patch and made them play a 2 bar build they would be dead every other mech in vAS+2. Is that healthy for the game? I dont know.

Two reason's I wouldn't take an Oakensorc in one of my groups would be, you need to optomize supports different for oakensorcs than other DDs because it provides courage. I would prefer a sweaty high damage core such as when a new trial is coming out.

Also yes a player can opt to do some runs with HA and some without. No that is not discrimination.....

It kills progression.

It's one thing to have skilled players memeing on HA builds (which some of the trifecta runs have been). It's another to have people pushed into content they're not ready for. Holding down one button and getting IR while eating kites and cones does not prepare you for harder content. You will sit there and stagnate, unable to progress further, because you didn't improve at reacting to targeted mechanics.

And if enough people complain about that, harder content will also get nerfed (again). Most of ESO endgame is trivially easy as it is for skilled players. If you make it even easier, they just leave the game and go on to another one where they actually feel challenged (perhaps one that actually gives meaningful rewards to clearing the hardest content in the game).

I completely agree it kills progression. I did not mean to imply that I think it should get stronger or easier to get more content complete. I mention in my post a lot of these new players with IR would just spam die a normal run. The thing with vAS+2 though is I don't think they can make that trifecta hard to get with oakensoul without completely gutting the item or taking empower back off (which likely wont happen as they want an easy mode mythic for solo players and a bridge to base vet content). 15 minutes is just so long to do only 90 million damage. And you can only partially address the tankiness because you can't stop them from running resistance pots and bi stat food as they dont need sustain. So I think at this point IR is just a meme trifecta unless you are a support or have logs from a 2bar build.

Honestly I don't hate EZ IR. I play a support role, so all it means for me is its easier to find group to actually poly farm with. I'm having a great time.

That particular aspect of it is fine. I just don't like that it doesn't prepare the people who want to continue to progress, at all.

Like, they're gonna get destroyed when they set foot in vCR.

FantasticFreddie

sarahthes wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

TBH as a multi trifecta tank, i do not care at all about this. As in the effort provided portion. It doesn't bother me to do 3 times the CPM as my DD's as a tank. Although it does seem odd seeing the cast differential.


Lately I have done a lot of dungeon tri's and IR's for people. Sometimes I prefer they are in oakensoul so they don't spam die and I can be done faster. Oakensoul trivializes a lot of mechs that would one shot a normal DD. I literally watch DD's eat cones, jumps, and kites, any normal DD would be dead from those. I guarantee if you took half the people who got IR and last patch and made them play a 2 bar build they would be dead every other mech in vAS+2. Is that healthy for the game? I dont know.

Two reason's I wouldn't take an Oakensorc in one of my groups would be, you need to optomize supports different for oakensorcs than other DDs because it provides courage. I would prefer a sweaty high damage core such as when a new trial is coming out.

Also yes a player can opt to do some runs with HA and some without. No that is not discrimination.....

It kills progression.

It's one thing to have skilled players memeing on HA builds (which some of the trifecta runs have been). It's another to have people pushed into content they're not ready for. Holding down one button and getting IR while eating kites and cones does not prepare you for harder content. You will sit there and stagnate, unable to progress further, because you didn't improve at reacting to targeted mechanics.

And if enough people complain about that, harder content will also get nerfed (again). Most of ESO endgame is trivially easy as it is for skilled players. If you make it even easier, they just leave the game and go on to another one where they actually feel challenged (perhaps one that actually gives meaningful rewards to clearing the hardest content in the game).

I completely agree it kills progression. I did not mean to imply that I think it should get stronger or easier to get more content complete. I mention in my post a lot of these new players with IR would just spam die a normal run. The thing with vAS+2 though is I don't think they can make that trifecta hard to get with oakensoul without completely gutting the item or taking empower back off (which likely wont happen as they want an easy mode mythic for solo players and a bridge to base vet content). 15 minutes is just so long to do only 90 million damage. And you can only partially address the tankiness because you can't stop them from running resistance pots and bi stat food as they dont need sustain. So I think at this point IR is just a meme trifecta unless you are a support or have logs from a 2bar build.

Honestly I don't hate EZ IR. I play a support role, so all it means for me is its easier to find group to actually poly farm with. I'm having a great time.

That particular aspect of it is fine. I just don't like that it doesn't prepare the people who want to continue to progress, at all.

Like, they're gonna get destroyed when they set foot in vCR.

Yeah a group that did a heavy attack IR decided to go immediately into HA GS and they are getting WRECKED.

sarahthes

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

TBH as a multi trifecta tank, i do not care at all about this. As in the effort provided portion. It doesn't bother me to do 3 times the CPM as my DD's as a tank. Although it does seem odd seeing the cast differential.


Lately I have done a lot of dungeon tri's and IR's for people. Sometimes I prefer they are in oakensoul so they don't spam die and I can be done faster. Oakensoul trivializes a lot of mechs that would one shot a normal DD. I literally watch DD's eat cones, jumps, and kites, any normal DD would be dead from those. I guarantee if you took half the people who got IR and last patch and made them play a 2 bar build they would be dead every other mech in vAS+2. Is that healthy for the game? I dont know.

Two reason's I wouldn't take an Oakensorc in one of my groups would be, you need to optomize supports different for oakensorcs than other DDs because it provides courage. I would prefer a sweaty high damage core such as when a new trial is coming out.

Also yes a player can opt to do some runs with HA and some without. No that is not discrimination.....

It kills progression.

It's one thing to have skilled players memeing on HA builds (which some of the trifecta runs have been). It's another to have people pushed into content they're not ready for. Holding down one button and getting IR while eating kites and cones does not prepare you for harder content. You will sit there and stagnate, unable to progress further, because you didn't improve at reacting to targeted mechanics.

And if enough people complain about that, harder content will also get nerfed (again). Most of ESO endgame is trivially easy as it is for skilled players. If you make it even easier, they just leave the game and go on to another one where they actually feel challenged (perhaps one that actually gives meaningful rewards to clearing the hardest content in the game).

I completely agree it kills progression. I did not mean to imply that I think it should get stronger or easier to get more content complete. I mention in my post a lot of these new players with IR would just spam die a normal run. The thing with vAS+2 though is I don't think they can make that trifecta hard to get with oakensoul without completely gutting the item or taking empower back off (which likely wont happen as they want an easy mode mythic for solo players and a bridge to base vet content). 15 minutes is just so long to do only 90 million damage. And you can only partially address the tankiness because you can't stop them from running resistance pots and bi stat food as they dont need sustain. So I think at this point IR is just a meme trifecta unless you are a support or have logs from a 2bar build.

Honestly I don't hate EZ IR. I play a support role, so all it means for me is its easier to find group to actually poly farm with. I'm having a great time.

That particular aspect of it is fine. I just don't like that it doesn't prepare the people who want to continue to progress, at all.

Like, they're gonna get destroyed when they set foot in vCR.

Yeah a group that did a heavy attack IR decided to go immediately into HA GS and they are getting WRECKED.

I would expect if at least a few of them have done GS before they'll catch on quickly.

Galeriano

Yazrz wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

1) heavy attack builds, the current main one with oakensoul, are incredibly easy damage for very little effort
2) light attack builds max out at higher damage, but it takes hours of practice and dedication to reach that damage.
3) heavy attack builds offer more defensive buffs than a light attack build, making your average HA dps extremely tanky compared to your average light attack dps.

For a lot of people, a HA build offers more damage and survivability for less effort. This is good overall.
Where it gets frustrating is when you get into organized group content. For a heavy attack build to reach the necessary levels of damage in hardmodes and trifectas they rely on roughly half the group to be playing at maximum effort in 2 bar builds.
That is the problem. HA builds cannot do a trifecta alone. You still need brittle, EC, crusher, alkosh or another pen set, you need major courage, etc etc etc. These rely on other players putting in 10 times the amount of effort than the HA player, who has a lower potential damage than a LA build to begin with. Why should all those supports bust their butts for players who want to "play how they want" and put in a fraction of the effort?
If you are busting your butt at work all day and when the yearly raise comes around you and Jim over there who spends his whole day on his phone and missed three deadlines last month which left YOU with more work, gets a better raise then you are you going to go "Awesome, good for Jim" or are you going to be pissy about it? Are you going to talk to your boss, maybe quit and find a new job? Would saying that you are just jealous and toxic be an accurate representation of the situation?

Does this not imply that the issue with the light attack builds, that the damage scaling vs effort needs some balancing?
Or for that matter maybe the key is to enable more diversity in HA builds, so that the debuffs can be brought by HA players as well?

OP was talking about hardmodes and trifectas. You know the content that should require more effort.

Rkindaleft

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

I'm just going to address the elephant in the room, as politely and bluntly as I can. The entire crux of the agitation comes from the blanket of "accessibility" ZOS is using. And how there is a big difference between people with disabilities and physical limitations falling under that blanket, and people who simply need to practice their rotation and are not that skilled at DPS using the same "accessibility" claim to use the one bar builds. If you point out the lack of skill it takes, how it might be 'dumbing down the game' suddenly you are not just addressing people who legit *can* improve but are using this simple way to get easy numbers, and people who are physically or mentally limited using this accessible build.

And what would be wrong with that? Why do you care whether a person has major disabilities or minor disabilities or just has so many work and family responsibilities that they don't have a lot of time to practice their skills on a dummy? Or whether they just don't LIKE practicing at great length on a dummy? Or any combination of those factors?

This might be an unpopular opinion as a whole but ignoring time constraints, a DPS who doesn't want to put in effort on learning a rotation on a dummy on ANY build or development of one's skill level you don't deserve to do the hardest content in this game. It's not gatekeeping, it's facts. Effort should be rewarded. Why even have HM trials or trifectas if all players should clear all content? What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

DreamyLu

I don't hate HA, just, I don't like much the combat concept in ESO and tend not to use LA/HA. I directly use a skill.

spartaxoxo

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

Since when is perfecting the mechanics of a raid considered zero effort? Why should something that is zero effort be gatekept?

PrincessOfThieves

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

Since when is perfecting the mechanics of a raid considered zero effort? Why should something that is zero effort be gatekept?

Oakensorc makes mechanics much more forgiving and you don't have to be 100% perfect. Most things that are not true oneshots won't kill you on that build. 28-29k hp and high resists make a huge difference.

spartaxoxo

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

Since when is perfecting the mechanics of a raid considered zero effort? Why should something that is zero effort be gatekept?

Oakensorc makes mechanics much more forgiving and you don't have to be 100% perfect. Most things that are not true oneshots won't kill you on that build. 28-29k hp and high resists make a huge difference.

They must be pretty trivial if some buffs are enough to collapse the whole trial. I mean zero effort is pretty huge. You just stand there and boom, trifecta. It's amazing how much stuff could have been auto-completed if people just tossed points into HP and picked up some buffs. eta (just kidding).

Or maybe, trial mechanics are difficult in and of themselves. And anyone who is able to overcome them including ones not doing a 2 bar dps rotation (Healers, tanks, Oakensoul users) have earned them so long as they beat them by actually playing and not paying someone else to do it. There's no such thing as an easymode vet dlc trial hardmode. And that's why even to this day, barely any groups have accomplished it.

PrincessOfThieves

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

Since when is perfecting the mechanics of a raid considered zero effort? Why should something that is zero effort be gatekept?

Oakensorc makes mechanics much more forgiving and you don't have to be 100% perfect. Most things that are not true oneshots won't kill you on that build. 28-29k hp and high resists make a huge difference.

They must be pretty trivial if some buffs are enough to collapse the whole trial. I mean zero effort is pretty huge. You just stand there and boom, trifecta. It's amazing how much stuff could have been auto-completed if people just tossed points into HP and picked up some buffs.

Instead of being snarky, please try vAS hm on a normal build and then on Oaken. Or some dungeon dlcs hms. Or at least do a Vateshran trifecta.

spartaxoxo

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

Since when is perfecting the mechanics of a raid considered zero effort? Why should something that is zero effort be gatekept?

Oakensorc makes mechanics much more forgiving and you don't have to be 100% perfect. Most things that are not true oneshots won't kill you on that build. 28-29k hp and high resists make a huge difference.

They must be pretty trivial if some buffs are enough to collapse the whole trial. I mean zero effort is pretty huge. You just stand there and boom, trifecta. It's amazing how much stuff could have been auto-completed if people just tossed points into HP and picked up some buffs.

Instead of being snarky, please try vAS hm on a normal build and then on Oaken. Or some dungeon dlcs hms. Or at least Vateshran trifecta.

What makes you think I haven't done any vet content? I have a 2 bar build. I've done some dungeon dlc hms. I'm currently working on Vateshran trifecta (already have the no sigils and speed runs, but still haven't managed the no-death. I'm down to one death though). I have done some vet dlc trials too. And none of it was on a Oakensoul character. I also have dungeon dlc hms.

I know those mechanics are tough because I have played them. Which is I why I disagree very much with the idea that those mechanics are trivial. They aren't. They are tough. And everyone who accomplished them without paying for a carry has earned them. "EZ hardmode" "Zero effort hardmoe" all of that devalues the efforts of tons of players. And it is not just Oakensoul accomplishments that are devalued by "EZ hardmode" it is everyone's accomplishments, especially the healers and tanks who also don't do dps rotations and survive incoming damage more readily. This is because in order for "EZ hardmode" to be true, the only skill that is remotely difficult has to be the dps rotation. That's what it's saying. That the only skill, the only effort, is the dps rotation. It's clearly not the case, so therefore there is no such thing as an EZ hardmode.

There are different tiers of heavy attack users too. Some of them are really good at handling mechanics, they just don't can't or won't do a more traditional dps rotation. That's who is getting those titles. People who aren't good at the difficult trials mechs still aren't getting those titles. And they are difficult.

Heelie

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

Since when is perfecting the mechanics of a raid considered zero effort? Why should something that is zero effort be gatekept?

Oakensorc makes mechanics much more forgiving and you don't have to be 100% perfect. Most things that are not true oneshots won't kill you on that build. 28-29k hp and high resists make a huge difference.

They must be pretty trivial if some buffs are enough to collapse the whole trial. I mean zero effort is pretty huge. You just stand there and boom, trifecta. It's amazing how much stuff could have been auto-completed if people just tossed points into HP and picked up some buffs.

Or maybe, trial mechanics are difficult in and of themselves. And anyone who is able to overcome them including ones not doing a 2 bar dps rotation (Healers, tanks, Oakensoul users) have earned them so long as they beat them by actually playing and not paying someone else to do it. There's no such thing as an easymode vet dlc trial hardmode. And that's why even to this day, barely any groups have accomplished it.

Taking up to 20% less damage while still doing 100k dps is a massive buff to survivability, why haven't people done it in the past? I would like you to show me a dps set with minor aegis, come back when you find it. A lot of the buffs on Oakensoul aren't really accessible. And to be able to get them would mean giving up more damage than going to oakensoul. Another note here is that it has been done in the past a lot, the third immortal redeemer (AS Trifecta) on EU was done with the revive set phoenix ( old version) by a group called Ghost and Goblins. But they also deservedly took a lot of heat for it, since dying and getting a trifecta should not be possible and using this set was bad sportsmanship. Back to the point, taking 20% less damage means a lot of the heal checks aren't as hard, there are oneshots like the cone in AS that no longer oneshot, and in general the content is more forgiving, to the point where average 6 month+ progs like RG and vDSR can be done in weeks. Zero effort? Comparably zero effort? I would say so I have seen groups do 70-80 raid days in vDSR that is around 240 hours, so 9-10 DAYS. Compare that to a prog with Oakensoul builds that might take 5 weeks, that is 30 hours, that is many times less effort. Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

PrincessOfThieves

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is there to strive for? Why should they get the hardest achievements in the game without putting in any effort?

Since when is perfecting the mechanics of a raid considered zero effort? Why should something that is zero effort be gatekept?

Oakensorc makes mechanics much more forgiving and you don't have to be 100% perfect. Most things that are not true oneshots won't kill you on that build. 28-29k hp and high resists make a huge difference.

They must be pretty trivial if some buffs are enough to collapse the whole trial. I mean zero effort is pretty huge. You just stand there and boom, trifecta. It's amazing how much stuff could have been auto-completed if people just tossed points into HP and picked up some buffs.

Instead of being snarky, please try vAS hm on a normal build and then on Oaken. Or some dungeon dlcs hms. Or at least Vateshran trifecta.

What makes you think I haven't done any vet content? I have a 2 bar build. I've done some dungeon dlc hms. I'm currently working on Vateshran trifecta (already have the no sigils and speed runs, but still haven't managed the no-death. I'm down to one death though). I have done some vet dlc trials too. And none of it was on a Oakensoul character. I also have dungeon dlc hms.

I know those mechanics are tough because I have played them. Which is I why I disagree very much with the idea that those mechanics are trivial. They aren't. They are tough. And everyone who accomplished them without paying for a carry has earned them. "EZ hardmode" "Zero effort hardmoe" all of that devalues the efforts of tons of players. And it is not just Oakensoul accomplishments that are devalued by "EZ hardmode" it is everyone's accomplishments, especially the healers and tanks who also don't do dps rotations and survive incoming damage more readily. This is because in order for "EZ hardmode" to be true, the only skill that is remotely difficult has to be the dps rotation. That's what it's saying. That the only skill, the only effort, is the dps rotation. It's clearly not the case, so therefore there is no such thing as an EZ hardmode.

There are different tiers of heavy attack users too. Some of them are really good at handling mechanics, they just don't can't or won't do a more traditional dps rotation. That's who is getting those titles. People who aren't good at the difficult trials mechs still aren't getting those titles. And they are difficult.

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.
But there are also many things that can hit for 20-25k which means a death sentence for a regular dd, but can be tanked with higher defensive stats. That means that you don't have to play perfectly to get the "perfect" achievements. For example, if we're talking about vAS, you can be a bit slow with interrupts, can survive being hit by more than one lightning spark etc. Combined with infinite shields and heals, it drastically reduces the difficulty.
Every difficult encounter in ESO has multiple "layers" of difficulty, so to speak. Keeping up your rotation in a stressful mobile fight is one of them. Perfectly avoiding all avoidable damage is another. But with Oaken, you only need to care about oneshot mechanics. It is simply impossible to balance the encounters when one build can ignore at least half of the intended challenge.
Imo, if they keep the dps of 1 bar sorcs, they should at least reduce the defensive aspect (or make it scale with group size, like with Pale Order ring) to make it fair. If Oaken players are as good at mechanics as people claim, it shouldn't be a problem anyway.

spartaxoxo

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

You do get more wriggle room, but it's not "Zero effort" or "easy." That's my point. And yes, there should be more DPS sets that allow for more defensive builds that are still legitimate. That's not a problem with Oakensoul. After 100k, you start to hit a point of diminishing returns in damage and there should be more options to players to have more variety in builds. I would very much okay with the defensive options scaling to group size like pale order. That's a sensible nerf that doesn't remove builds from content. Far more fair than the damage nerf, IMO. Damage has to be above certain levels in order to get into content, but the survivability doesn't need to be as high as it is.

PrincessOfThieves

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

Yes, so "zero effort" is not correct.

Well, compared to what players with regular builds would have to do... Especially if they want to be invited to a vAS+2 group with something other than an Oakensorc or a buff/support character.

spartaxoxo

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

Yes, so "zero effort" is not correct.

Well, compared to what players with regular builds would have to do... Especially if they want to be invited to a vAS+2 group with something other than an Oakensorc or a buff/support character.

Read my edit, hit post too soon, sorry.

And no, not even then. Because there is more to trials than rotations, as I said earlier. I am certain those are still difficult.

PrincessOfThieves

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

You do get more wriggle room, but it's not "Zero effort" or "easy." That's my point. And yes, there should be more DPS sets that allow for more defensive builds that are still legitimate. That's not a problem with Oakensoul. After 100k, you start to hit a point of diminishing returns in damage and there should be more options to players to have more variety in builds. I would very much okay with the defensive options scaling to group size like pale order. That's a sensible nerf that doesn't remove builds from content. Far more fair than the damage nerf, IMO. Damage has to be above certain levels in order to get into content, but the survivability doesn't need to be as high as it is.

I disagree because with Oakensorc I managed to get the achievements I tried to do for a while (some on the first try) and it felt really easy in comparison. Sooo agree to disagree, I guess?
That being said, if Oaken builds were less tanky, they would be balanced in my opinion. They should somehow keep the buffs for solo players, though, so they still retain the accessibility aspect for people who really need it.

spartaxoxo

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

You do get more wriggle room, but it's not "Zero effort" or "easy." That's my point. And yes, there should be more DPS sets that allow for more defensive builds that are still legitimate. That's not a problem with Oakensoul. After 100k, you start to hit a point of diminishing returns in damage and there should be more options to players to have more variety in builds. I would very much okay with the defensive options scaling to group size like pale order. That's a sensible nerf that doesn't remove builds from content. Far more fair than the damage nerf, IMO. Damage has to be above certain levels in order to get into content, but the survivability doesn't need to be as high as it is.

I disagree because with Oakensorc I managed to get the achievements I tried to do for a while (some on the first try) and it felt really easy in comparison. Sooo agree to disagree, I guess?
That being said, if Oaken builds were less tanky, they would be balanced in my opinion. They should somehow keep the buffs for solo players, though, so they still retain the accessibility aspect for people who really need it.

I literally died more with Oakensoul in VVH because it slowed me down. I'm better on my 2 bar build. I'm clearly just doing something wrong and no ring is gonna change that. I don't mind if the survivability gets nerfed though. It just reinforces mechanics, which should be the point of nerfs.

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

You do get more wriggle room, but it's not "Zero effort" or "easy." That's my point. And yes, there should be more DPS sets that allow for more defensive builds that are still legitimate. That's not a problem with Oakensoul. After 100k, you start to hit a point of diminishing returns in damage and there should be more options to players to have more variety in builds. I would very much okay with the defensive options scaling to group size like pale order. That's a sensible nerf that doesn't remove builds from content. Far more fair than the damage nerf, IMO. Damage has to be above certain levels in order to get into content, but the survivability doesn't need to be as high as it is.

This is the only game I playerd where setup allowing to progress something few times faster is not called easy. Or atleast easier.

Yes I agree there is still effort needed to complete every HM content but the thing is developer has to design them around certain idea in this case around the idea that good rotation and survivability plays important role in success. You bring a setup that makes those two easier, You instantly get easier clear.

jaws343

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

You do get more wriggle room, but it's not "Zero effort" or "easy." That's my point. And yes, there should be more DPS sets that allow for more defensive builds that are still legitimate. That's not a problem with Oakensoul. After 100k, you start to hit a point of diminishing returns in damage and there should be more options to players to have more variety in builds. I would very much okay with the defensive options scaling to group size like pale order. That's a sensible nerf that doesn't remove builds from content. Far more fair than the damage nerf, IMO. Damage has to be above certain levels in order to get into content, but the survivability doesn't need to be as high as it is.

I disagree because with Oakensorc I managed to get the achievements I tried to do for a while (some on the first try) and it felt really easy in comparison. Sooo agree to disagree, I guess?
That being said, if Oaken builds were less tanky, they would be balanced in my opinion. They should somehow keep the buffs for solo players, though, so they still retain the accessibility aspect for people who really need it.

I literally died more with Oakensoul in VVH because it slowed me down. I'm better on my 2 bar build. I'm clearly just doing something wrong and no ring is gonna change that. I don't mind if the survivability gets nerfed though. It just reinforces mechanics, which should be the point of nerfs.

Oakensorcs absolutely makes harder content easier.

The build does way more damage than a solo two bar build can possibly output. Doing more damage, consistently, makes things easier.

It takes less time to complete, which means less time to make a mistake.

Things die quicker which means you can burn through more mechanics.

For comparison, I barely got vvh trifecta on my 2 bar build back in the day, by cheesing the ring mechanic, with like 20 seconds to spare.

With oakensoul, I can do vvh is less than 30 mins, and can burn through mechanics that would otherwise be a problem on two bar builds. That's a 15 minute time difference. 15 minutes less time to do the content than expected by a challenging achievement is a huge gain.

It doesn't mean the content isn't challenging. Only that oaken builds trivialize a lot of the challenging content.

SerafinaWaterstar

What does it matter if HA enables more players to get hm or trifecta clears?

It really is not a simple as ‘just holding down a key’ - at least on console - you can’t just hold down the HA button & then go through the other skills (despite what some claim) as they won’t always fire so you do need to work out a basic rotation. Plus have an understanding of mechs is stupidly important - you can’t just burn through everything.

It is a side of some endgame players that is disappointing; this gatekeeping of access. Whether it is over the top dps demands (not the normal ones) or a punishing schedule that does not take into account real life, or whatever else - they seem to forget this is a GAME, one that should be FUN - not hard work.

I am glad that these HA builds have allowed me, & others in my guild, to lead vet trials & give people clears. Still needed to work at it, but HA has helped some.

(And for the record, have done all vet trials except vDSR which am progging, lots of HM - no trifectas as not interested - and done on nightblade, normal sorc, templar and healer.)

OsUfi

Yazrz wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

But this hand waving "everyone who thinks HA is OP is clearly gatekeeping and firmly against accessibility" stuff is just rubbish.

Well, the fact is that HA is vastly behind LA/2 bar builds.

So there is really no other reason than gatekeeping and just being toxic in general.

I'm not against HA builds. I use one. But I can still stand back, look at what I'm doing with minimal effort and say, "huh, this feels a little overpowered."

I'd say shutting down all discussion and calling others toxic gatekeepers because they have an alternate opinion to you is just as toxic.

Le sigh.

jaws343

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

What does it matter if HA enables more players to get hm or trifecta clears?

It really is not a simple as ‘just holding down a key’ - at least on console - you can’t just hold down the HA button & then go through the other skills (despite what some claim) as they won’t always fire so you do need to work out a basic rotation. Plus have an understanding of mechs is stupidly important - you can’t just burn through everything.

It is a side of some endgame players that is disappointing; this gatekeeping of access. Whether it is over the top dps demands (not the normal ones) or a punishing schedule that does not take into account real life, or whatever else - they seem to forget this is a GAME, one that should be FUN - not hard work.

I am glad that these HA builds have allowed me, & others in my guild, to lead vet trials & give people clears. Still needed to work at it, but HA has helped some.

(And for the record, have done all vet trials except vDSR which am progging, lots of HM - no trifectas as not interested - and done on nightblade, normal sorc, templar and healer.)

You can absolutely just hold the heavy button down and queue skills to fire off in between, on console, that's how the build runs best. 97k on dummy doing that.

But also, the build does 80K while literally using no skills and only heavy attacking, so even if a skill doesn't go off, you are still doing 80k DPS to a target by holding a button down.

spartaxoxo

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Personally I would argue that buying a trifecta is much harder than doing it on Oakensoul and I respect it more.

This is the only game I have ever played where a group can be stuck on something for weeks and it get called easy.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

My point is, with Oakensorc you don't need to do the mechanics perfectly. There are things that can oneshot the player - or even their entire group - if ignored. Of course, you still have to learn these mechanics.

You do get more wriggle room, but it's not "Zero effort" or "easy." That's my point. And yes, there should be more DPS sets that allow for more defensive builds that are still legitimate. That's not a problem with Oakensoul. After 100k, you start to hit a point of diminishing returns in damage and there should be more options to players to have more variety in builds. I would very much okay with the defensive options scaling to group size like pale order. That's a sensible nerf that doesn't remove builds from content. Far more fair than the damage nerf, IMO. Damage has to be above certain levels in order to get into content, but the survivability doesn't need to be as high as it is.

This is the only game I playerd where setup allowing to progress something few times faster is not called easy. Or atleast easier.

Easier, sure. Just to clarify, I never disputed that. I even agreed a survivability nerf would be good with me. It would reinforce these builds having to do the mechs more carefully without barring them from entry the way damage nerfs do. So, I think they should touch that instead of damage. Zero effort? EZ? For content that takes weeks???? Nope. It's not just a little effort. It's a lot of effort, not just for this game but in video games in general IMO

Jammy420

LunaFlora wrote: »

because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen

Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?

spartaxoxo

Jammy420 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen

Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?

Yes. Weaving is painful for many. This is actually one of the most frequent complaints about weaving for years and is a big reason many people don't do it.

nemesrichard

Jammy420 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seen

Pressing a button once per 2 seconds is painful?

I am not a master of LA waving but animation cancelling is about pushing 2 buttons quickly after each other, isn't it?