The Sorcerer changes are completely inadequate

OBJnoob · February 2023

Well I mean we're all kinda hybrids now this isn't really a sorc specific issue. There are stamina nightblades that probably don't like feeling forced to run Concealed but that isn't the biggest deal in the world either.

It is too bad that some morphs are SO good and their counterparts are hardly ever used. But I don't think frags is very high on the list. I don't think it's very high on the list of things sorc needs either.

StaticWave · February 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

At both: Honestly I don't see why you're using frags. Seems like Curse, Crystal Weapon, and Overload are the main things I see. I was always kinda "meh" on the whole proccing frags thing anyway even back in the day when it was extremely easy to rack up kills from afar on a magsorc. It left me wanting to either use two spammables... One to proc the other... Or it left me using endless fury as a spammable just to try and proc it. Felt dumb. Of all the problems sorcs currently have it just doesn't seem to me that this is still one of them.

That's the point

I dont use frag lol as crystal weapon is 10x better

my main dps skill is crystal weapon which is stam
my main heal is vigor which is again stam

Am I a mag sorc now ?

Without a burst heal or strong shields I am just a hybrid sorc with non existent defence

What's so good about crystal weapon?

- 1k Pen
- Can be used as a spammable or a delayed burst
- Tied to light/heavy attack for activation, so if an enemy dodges your light attack you can still hit him again with the same Cwep without casting another one, thereby helping sustain
- Reduces cost of next ability by 10%, helping sustain
- Procs Blood Magic consistently, which is a good offensive heal
- Can proc Minor Breach because it's physical damage

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

At both: Honestly I don't see why you're using frags. Seems like Curse, Crystal Weapon, and Overload are the main things I see. I was always kinda "meh" on the whole proccing frags thing anyway even back in the day when it was extremely easy to rack up kills from afar on a magsorc. It left me wanting to either use two spammables... One to proc the other... Or it left me using endless fury as a spammable just to try and proc it. Felt dumb. Of all the problems sorcs currently have it just doesn't seem to me that this is still one of them.

That's the point

I dont use frag lol as crystal weapon is 10x better

my main dps skill is crystal weapon which is stam
my main heal is vigor which is again stam

Am I a mag sorc now ?

Without a burst heal or strong shields I am just a hybrid sorc with non existent defence

What's so good about crystal weapon?

Probably the only pvp skill in sorc toolkit which other other classes can’t do better
It’s literally the identity of the class right now

LittlePinkDot · February 2023

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

At both: Honestly I don't see why you're using frags. Seems like Curse, Crystal Weapon, and Overload are the main things I see. I was always kinda "meh" on the whole proccing frags thing anyway even back in the day when it was extremely easy to rack up kills from afar on a magsorc. It left me wanting to either use two spammables... One to proc the other... Or it left me using endless fury as a spammable just to try and proc it. Felt dumb. Of all the problems sorcs currently have it just doesn't seem to me that this is still one of them.

That's the point

I dont use frag lol as crystal weapon is 10x better

my main dps skill is crystal weapon which is stam
my main heal is vigor which is again stam

Am I a mag sorc now ?

Without a burst heal or strong shields I am just a hybrid sorc with non existent defence

What's so good about crystal weapon?

Probably the only pvp skill in sorc toolkit which other other classes can’t do better
It’s literally the identity of the class right now

I'm using shrouded daggers on my sorc

Caribou77 · February 2023

Question for those who’ve tried the new Mist-streak (I’m on Xbox):

Does it have the same 1-2 second delay before activating that Streak does? This is, imo, the greatest vulnerability/weakness of Streak as an escape tool. It’s slow n clunky to activate. You really have to learn to hit it a second before you think you’ll need it. Add in a bit of server latency? Too late, you’re cc’d, doing the slow motion sway while you hit dodge roll repeatedly and you just stand there getting clobbered.

If Mist activates faster than Streak, Streak joins the heap of antiquated Magsorc skills.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2023

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

its time to just delete sorc already. or the game tho. entire class is dead now with this change

I mean atleast you get the sorc class identity now on every class with mistform being a streak equivalent

LMAO...Mist Form > Streak. It provides 300 weapon/spell damage that streak does not provide.

It doesn't provide the strongest stun in the game though. Streak real strenght currently is in the stun.

No

Yes. There is a reason barely anyone picks other morph.

That’s because the other morph was recently nerfed

Barely anyone used it even before the nerf. Ever since ZoS created current version of the stun on streak that morph became a default for most of the sorcs.

Also what's Your point? What are You trying to disprove? Mist form won't have a stong stun that streak have and streak morph is used because of that strong stun.

No, I only used BOL before the nerf. So did a lot of other sorcs

If rune cage gets a buff I will never use streak for stun and lose my range advantage

Still You and "lot of other sorcs" were in minority. Streak is the default morph since few years now. It's not a coincidence people call it streak even when saying about base ability or ball of lightning morph.

If rune cage gets a buff we can be back at rune cage meta which was one of the most broken metas in the game. Maybe ZoS will buff it but they will never make it completly reliable. With streak stun ZoS kinda found a middleground because they gave sorcs strong reliable stun but for the cost of not being able to stay at range and have complete control over the enemy.

And let me repeat myself. What's Your point? What are You trying to disprove? Mist form won't have a stong stun that streak have and streak morph is used because of that strong stun.

[snip]

BoL was the go-to morph before the absorb and rune cage were gutted. Be free to search the forum for countless nerf threads about it. "BoL too stronk" was a common sight in the days.
Streak is the go-to morph now because BoL was harshly nerfed and there is no other reliable stun. RC is a meme and far too easy to avoid. Also snare immunity is easier to get nowadays.

Since Mist Form will absorb better than BoL + grants Major Expedition it's superior to it. So why chose it even at all? Many players are already vamps for the passives. If they buff BoL again + give the stun back to frags people wouldn't be so inclined to use streak.

[edited for baiting]

Digiman · February 2023

Literally stopped caring what LittlePinkDot and maga sorc crap excuses that mean nothing. When my nightblade is more fun then my sorc main, yeah something is wrong with the class.

Glantir · February 2023

Make sure to write you suggestions also here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626525/pts-update-37-feedback-thread-for-combat-classes#latest

The devs say they read the forum but maybe only this official feedback threads.

ForumBully · February 2023

Some decent changes this week...sadly it seems like purely a revamp of week one with nothing new, except addressing Maras (which is long overdue)

acastanza_ESO · February 2023

ZOS Devs, Repeat after me: Dragonknight does not need in, class access major breserk AT ALL.
Why, why, why, why are you insisting on buffing a class that actually needs nerfs?!
You also expliccitly call out that you buffed one aspect of helping hands "to avoid a nerf" ON THE CLASS THAT NEEDS NERFS?!

Also, you're still not addressing Nightblade's unacceptable unnamed 10% damage buff and the unacceptable damage of spectral bow.

And yet another patch with absolutely nothing for sorcerers, one of the absolute worst PVP classes in the game.

[snip]
[edited for minor bashing]

olsborg · February 2023

So yes, the sorceror "buffs" if you can call it that, is inadequate and then some. Without doing anything to my nocp build, my Hardened ward went from 9768-10383(on pts). Thats not gonna do anything with the current problems that magsorc has in pvp. Please rework the conjuration skill line etc.

olsborg · February 2023

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Access to major breach via curse (frees up barspace/gcd) and a reasonable buff to matriarchs hp would already solve so much for magsorcs.

Thats true, and a good idea imo for magsorc offenciveness in pvp, but magsorc has the most telegraphed dmg combos in the game, slow moving projectiles that a rock could dodge. Hardened ward and wards in general cant compete with healing skills/spells as they are too strong and can crit.
Magsorc miss a class specific burst heal and tools to be more durable in close quarter combat since streak doesnt do much these days as 80% of players in pvp are close to or at the speedcap even witihout gapclosers.

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

a reasonable buff to matriarchs hp would already solve so much for magsorcs.

The main issue I have with buffing Matriarch health is that all it does is push the problem further down the road. It doesn't actually fix the issue and still keeps forcing sorcs into using pet builds.

For example, say we buff matriarch to 50k health with tank level of resistances, what happens in a few years time when that new health + resistance value of matriarch becomes the new norm for 1-2 GCD burst damage? The class just ends up right back where it is now.

The class single target/self burst heal needs to be completely separated from the pets because unless this is done or the pets are completely reworked from the ground up, the issue will always keep reappearing every few years with how power creep goes.

Aces-High-82 · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

a reasonable buff to matriarchs hp would already solve so much for magsorcs.

The main issue I have with buffing Matriarch health is that all it does is push the problem further down the road. It doesn't actually fix the issue and still keeps forcing sorcs into using pet builds.

For example, say we buff matriarch to 50k health with tank level of resistances, what happens in a few years time when that new health + resistance value of matriarch becomes the new norm for 1-2 GCD burst damage? The class just ends up right back where it is now.

The class single target/self burst heal needs to be completely separated from the pets because unless this is done or the pets are completely reworked from the ground up, the issue will always keep reappearing every few years with how power creep goes.

But it's a quick fix done with minimal coding effort.
Imo it's better to aim for small adjustments that can be easily executed for now - let's be realistic, with Arcanist upcoming the combat design team will already have a good amount of workload.
Ofc further adjustments are welcome to bring the class on par again.
I'd absolutely appreciate if say Empowered Ward would be a self targeted burst heal scaling of damage but rn you have already one accessible via matriarch tho no one is gonna argue its downsides.

Aces-High-82 · February 2023

olsborg wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Access to major breach via curse (frees up barspace/gcd) and a reasonable buff to matriarchs hp would already solve so much for magsorcs.

Thats true, and a good idea imo for magsorc offenciveness in pvp, but magsorc has the most telegraphed dmg combos in the game, slow moving projectiles that a rock could dodge. Hardened ward and wards in general cant compete with healing skills/spells as they are too strong and can crit.
Magsorc miss a class specific burst heal and tools to be more durable in close quarter combat since streak doesnt do much these days as 80% of players in pvp are close to or at the speedcap even witihout gapclosers.

I have a very different opinion how wards should function nowadays from most ppl taking part in the discussions.
From my point of view the last time Magsorc was truly fun and rewarding to play was Summerset when Thrassian enabled to build the definition of a glasscannon - hilarious damage output but fragile as hell.
Imo streak is fine as is except the too harsh fatigue.

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

a reasonable buff to matriarchs hp would already solve so much for magsorcs.

The main issue I have with buffing Matriarch health is that all it does is push the problem further down the road. It doesn't actually fix the issue and still keeps forcing sorcs into using pet builds.

For example, say we buff matriarch to 50k health with tank level of resistances, what happens in a few years time when that new health + resistance value of matriarch becomes the new norm for 1-2 GCD burst damage? The class just ends up right back where it is now.

The class single target/self burst heal needs to be completely separated from the pets because unless this is done or the pets are completely reworked from the ground up, the issue will always keep reappearing every few years with how power creep goes.

But it's a quick fix done with minimal coding effort.
Imo it's better to aim for small adjustments that can be easily executed for now - let's be realistic, with Arcanist upcoming the combat design team will already have a good amount of workload.
Ofc further adjustments are welcome to bring the class on par again.
I'd absolutely appreciate if say Empowered Ward would be a self targeted burst heal scaling of damage but rn you have already one accessible via matriarch tho no one is gonna argue its downsides.

But this is the issue though, sorcerer has had nothing but quick fixes with minimal effort for years now that have constantly failed to actually address the issues that the class has.

Look at the ward buff this pts, crystal weapon buff in U34, the buff to rune cage ages ago, all of those and many more were simple band aid fixes that caused more issues for balance than they fixed for sorcerer and as such they were all heavily nerfed 1 patch later (and likely ward will be too if it is left to go through as is).

The other "fixes" that have been implemented are all buffs to pet builds which is not what the majority of players want for the class and even those were band aids as well (daedric prey 125% buff in U35, matriarch heal, clannfear getting a health based heal for stam/tanksorc, etc).

It's about time they actually sat down and properly addressed the issues with the class once and for all instead of constantly pushing them further down the road through unnecessary over the top buff/nerf cycles that have only ever hurt the class in the long term.
They have done this for NB and DK so it shouldn't be that much of an issue to do for sorc and plar, especially when long time mains of those classes are providing them with a lot of information for what the issues are and options/directions for how these issues can be addressed.

Caribou77 · February 2023

theyre hoping you’ll forget about magsorc and play arcanist

AdamLAD · February 2023

Caribou77 wrote: »

theyre hoping you’ll forget about magsorc and play arcanist

I hope this is the last class ever introduced to eso. They need to add stuff that can now be added to ALL classes

Brrrofski · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

theyre hoping you’ll forget about magsorc and play arcanist

I hope this is the last class ever introduced to eso. They need to add stuff that can now be added to ALL classes

I agree

Combat skill lines would be my preference.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

theyre hoping you’ll forget about magsorc and play arcanist

I hope this is the last class ever introduced to eso. They need to add stuff that can now be added to ALL classes

I wouldn’t get your hopes up if I were you…

I predict next expansion will be a new class again; with two new companions; a Necromancer, and one of that new class.

Whether or not it will be a class anyone has asked for, similar to Arcanist, will be another story altogether.

katorga · February 2023

Luede wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Test mana shield through max health. I think there will be a meta through maximum health and spell damage. + shield from the branch of the shield.

yeah, fantastic META, after you build your char to max health and dmg, you are OOM after 4 shields, not to note that your other skills are also very mana intensive.

Welp,

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

At both: Honestly I don't see why you're using frags. Seems like Curse, Crystal Weapon, and Overload are the main things I see. I was always kinda "meh" on the whole proccing frags thing anyway even back in the day when it was extremely easy to rack up kills from afar on a magsorc. It left me wanting to either use two spammables... One to proc the other... Or it left me using endless fury as a spammable just to try and proc it. Felt dumb. Of all the problems sorcs currently have it just doesn't seem to me that this is still one of them.

That's the point

I dont use frag lol as crystal weapon is 10x better

my main dps skill is crystal weapon which is stam
my main heal is vigor which is again stam

Am I a mag sorc now ?

Without a burst heal or strong shields I am just a hybrid sorc with non existent defence

What's so good about crystal weapon?

- 1k Pen
- Can be used as a spammable or a delayed burst
- Tied to light/heavy attack for activation, so if an enemy dodges your light attack you can still hit him again with the same Cwep without casting another one, thereby helping sustain
- Reduces cost of next ability by 10%, helping sustain
- Procs Blood Magic consistently, which is a good offensive heal
- Can proc Minor Breach because it's physical damage

All of that is garbage compared to permanent 15% movement speed and 10% to all damage. Just saying.

olsborg · February 2023

How about everytime you cast conjured ward you got a HoT for the duration (6s) for 50% of the shields initial value? Better then nothing. Pets also needs a very big rework imo.

StaticWave · February 2023

katorga wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Test mana shield through max health. I think there will be a meta through maximum health and spell damage. + shield from the branch of the shield.

yeah, fantastic META, after you build your char to max health and dmg, you are OOM after 4 shields, not to note that your other skills are also very mana intensive.

Welp,

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

At both: Honestly I don't see why you're using frags. Seems like Curse, Crystal Weapon, and Overload are the main things I see. I was always kinda "meh" on the whole proccing frags thing anyway even back in the day when it was extremely easy to rack up kills from afar on a magsorc. It left me wanting to either use two spammables... One to proc the other... Or it left me using endless fury as a spammable just to try and proc it. Felt dumb. Of all the problems sorcs currently have it just doesn't seem to me that this is still one of them.

That's the point

I dont use frag lol as crystal weapon is 10x better

my main dps skill is crystal weapon which is stam
my main heal is vigor which is again stam

Am I a mag sorc now ?

Without a burst heal or strong shields I am just a hybrid sorc with non existent defence

What's so good about crystal weapon?

- 1k Pen
- Can be used as a spammable or a delayed burst
- Tied to light/heavy attack for activation, so if an enemy dodges your light attack you can still hit him again with the same Cwep without casting another one, thereby helping sustain
- Reduces cost of next ability by 10%, helping sustain
- Procs Blood Magic consistently, which is a good offensive heal
- Can proc Minor Breach because it's physical damage

All of that is garbage compared to permanent 15% movement speed and 10% to all damage. Just saying.

Good luck hitting me when I kite and spam cwep at you, just saying.

axi · February 2023

Streak+dark deal = no noticable buffs to sorc. It was always like that and always will be until people will understand these 2 abilities allow for way more than some players would like to admit.