PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

Sergykid

finally some sense have been officially spoken, happy with the communication.

but no doubt some classes are weaker than others in any area. While functionality and playstyle should remain a staple, how about looking at the power budget of many class spells that are useless even as a niche.

Thecompton73

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Also, for anyone who doesn’t know what @ZOS_Kevin meant by each class has its drawbacks, here is my interpretation of each of their benefits…

• Dragonknight: Damage, Mitigation, Healing
• Warden: Damage, Mitigation, Healing
• Nightblade: Damage, Healing, Sustain
• Templar: Mitigation, Healing, Sustain
• Necromancer: Mitigation, Healing, Sustain
• Sorcerer: Damage, Mitigation, Sustain

I have reason to believe Arcanist will land itself similar to either Nightblade or Sorcerer.

Regarding sustain on Hybrid DK's and Sorcerer's: I'm not sure where it's coming from that Sorc's have it better for sustain. Even with the Sorc having Dark Deal and much higher tooltips for both recovery stats I find it much easier to sustain on my DK. Maybe it's because I don't use Overload to turn Ult into resources but with DK I can use any ultimate, whether class weapon, or world skill to do that.

dvonpm

Glantir wrote: »

Having access to silence is your argument?

For PvE we dont have 2014 anymore where people skip mechanics with negate

and for PvP i guess people just walk outsind the globe?

It's pretty useless in pve or pvp 1vx, but that is what group play and roots/snares/fears are for.

Group play pvp negates are super important, though that importance kind of scales with the number of enemy players attacking you.

Solo/small group pvp is a different animal, but there are better ultimate choices for those play styles. You want high damage/ short cooldowns more for those fights than high cost/low damage big AOEs.

Anyway, don't want to stray too OT, but tldr, negate is absolutely not useless, it's just maybe different play styles than you're used to. Perfectly timed negates are a thing of beauty It would be OP if it did anything else.

The_Titan_Tim

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Also, for anyone who doesn’t know what @ZOS_Kevin meant by each class has its drawbacks, here is my interpretation of each of their benefits…

• Dragonknight: Damage, Mitigation, Healing
• Warden: Damage, Mitigation, Healing
• Nightblade: Damage, Healing, Sustain
• Templar: Mitigation, Healing, Sustain
• Necromancer: Mitigation, Healing, Sustain
• Sorcerer: Damage, Mitigation, Sustain

I have reason to believe Arcanist will land itself similar to either Nightblade or Sorcerer.

Regarding sustain on Hybrid DK's and Sorcerer's: I'm not sure where it's coming from that Sorc's have it better for sustain. Even with the Sorc having Dark Deal and much higher tooltips for both recovery stats I find it much easier to sustain on my DK. Maybe it's because I don't use Overload to turn Ult into resources but with DK I can use any ultimate, whether class weapon, or world skill to help to do that.

Right, so you’ve pointed out that Dragonknight is overperforming sustain-wise, that’s a problem. ZOS have clearly stated in the past that having good sustain is not one of the perks of playing the class.

Xfgsd

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.

Lastly, we want to reiterate the notion of classes having strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerer, like every other class, cannot be good at everything. This is part of building class identity.

@ZOS_Kevin

It's mildly insulting that the only example we can come up with regarding the unique abilities Sorcerers have in their kit is an effect that A ) is near useless in PvE and B ) is just walked out of in PvP.

Hopefully the meta wont change too much and DKs will still use daggers and whip and bring me along for my atro buff.

Also, feels bad templars, my condolences.

Thecompton73

dvonpm wrote: »

Glantir wrote: »

Having access to silence is your argument?

For PvE we dont have 2014 anymore where people skip mechanics with negate

and for PvP i guess people just walk outsind the globe?

It's pretty useless in pve or pvp 1vx, but that is what group play and roots/snares/fears are for.

Group play pvp negates are super important, though that importance kind of scales with the number of enemy players attacking you.

Solo/small group pvp is a different animal, but there are better ultimate choices for those play styles. You want high damage/ short cooldowns more for those fights than high cost/low damage big AOEs.

Anyway, don't want to stray too OT, but tldr, negate is absolutely not useless, it's just maybe different play styles than you're used to. Perfectly timed negates are a thing of beauty It would be OP if it did anything else.

I love using a well timed negate to bust a group in PvP but as you say, it's not OP, so it shouldn't be pointed to as a reason it's acceptable to leave the class lacking in other areas.

UnassumingNoob

Very disappointing.

Thecompton73

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Also, for anyone who doesn’t know what @ZOS_Kevin meant by each class has its drawbacks, here is my interpretation of each of their benefits…

• Dragonknight: Damage, Mitigation, Healing
• Warden: Damage, Mitigation, Healing
• Nightblade: Damage, Healing, Sustain
• Templar: Mitigation, Healing, Sustain
• Necromancer: Mitigation, Healing, Sustain
• Sorcerer: Damage, Mitigation, Sustain

I have reason to believe Arcanist will land itself similar to either Nightblade or Sorcerer.

Regarding sustain on Hybrid DK's and Sorcerer's: I'm not sure where it's coming from that Sorc's have it better for sustain. Even with the Sorc having Dark Deal and much higher tooltips for both recovery stats I find it much easier to sustain on my DK. Maybe it's because I don't use Overload to turn Ult into resources but with DK I can use any ultimate, whether class weapon, or world skill to help to do that.

Right, so you’ve pointed out that Dragonknight is overperforming sustain-wise, that’s a problem. ZOS have clearly stated in the past that having good sustain is not one of the perks of playing the class.

But yet it's being left as is for the foreseeable future. As others have pointed out, because they balance these things off spreadsheet data much more heavily than the actual in game experience of playing them, the actual weakness/strengths for the classes just don't match up with the supposed ideals they have for achieving balance.
I love my Sorc, he's still ton's of fun to play but when I switch to my DK staying alive, getting kills and sustaining long fights all just feel so much easier.

Jaimeh

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, we want to reiterate the notion of classes having strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerer, like every other class, cannot be good at everything. This is part of building class identity. There are ways for players to bridge the gap through gear, consumables, etc. That does not negate us from addressing problem areas, but it does mean there will be times where elements of a class will struggle compared to others. That is okay and a part of building unique gameplay experiences.

@ZOS_Kevin Thank you for replying, communication is always appreciated. If this is the reasoning, could we please get an official comment what are the weakness of the DK class for the upcoming patch? It makes sense for classes to have their own unique strengths and weaknesses, but I think right now they are really out of balance, with some classes having almost no weaknesses, whereas other classes are severely under-performing. Looking at logs of optimized trial groups, the scale is heavily tipped towards a couple of classes only, how is this in line with your idea of having every class bring in something unique? This is an honest question, because I'm really curious what the devs think of the current state of DKs if they honestly want classes to have a balance between strengths and weaknesses, and I would appreciate hearing their rationale.

Jaimeh

Sometimes I wonder how much experience the combat team has of live gameplay at challenging level for the current patch, because a lot of the time, the decisions seem to be made on paper, and if that's the case even to some degree, it's really detrimental, and the reason why they might seem so baffling and obviously wrong to the seasoned player. I do wonder if that has something to do with it.

Tannus15

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, we want to reiterate the notion of classes having strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerer, like every other class, cannot be good at everything. This is part of building class identity. There are ways for players to bridge the gap through gear, consumables, etc. That does not negate us from addressing problem areas, but it does mean there will be times where elements of a class will struggle compared to others. That is okay and a part of building unique gameplay experiences.

It would be really nice to know what the dev's see as each classes strengths and weaknesses and to know if I'm basically trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole.

We, the community, continue to push for changes to our favourite class, but if that's never going to happen because it doesn't fit the vision of the dev team, then the reality is we should probably just change class and move on.

gariondavey

Dekrypted wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

In addition to taking feedback to the team about Sorc, we also took your feedback to the team regarding the state of Templars. We want to follow up on how the team uses feedback to inform combat and balance changes.

The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.

While there are no planned changes for Templar in U37, outside of anything already highlighted in patch notes, we're evaluating everchanging data and will continue to adjust around issues when they arise. Your continued feedback will be apart of that process.

I really appreciate the communication, but what you've done is confirm that I can't continue playing this game.

This issue relating to the overt reduction in damage was mentioned in this area of the forums months ago. If the feedback is only reaching them now with an expected turnaround time of over 6 months to fix something that they broke, it really doesn't give me much confidence in what else can happen this year.

I love the game, but this isn't worth it. I told alot of my circles that if this year is a flop, that's it. I really only play one class and it seems as though the development team is more focused on having people who want to play that class or "how they want" to simply not.

When I say I appreciate the communication, I really do. You're clearly more of the messenger in this case, but this is just disappointing.

This in a nutshell

ForumBully

Jaimeh wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder how much experience the combat team has of live gameplay at challenging level for the current patch, because a lot of the time, the decisions seem to be made on paper, and if that's the case even to some degree, it's really detrimental, and the reason why they might seem so baffling and obviously wrong to the seasoned player. I do wonder if that has something to do with it.

They don't, which is why we have changes that make little sense and explanations that make even less sense to people who actually play the game, especially when it comes to PvP.

Not a single player who plays PvP would have said DK needs a buff and Templars are fine.

It's not a conspiracy theory that the devs don't know the reality of the game where PvP is concerned, it's a obvious fact.

GetAgrippa

Dks in pvp next patch:

Noxious, Noxious, Corrosive, Chain, Fossilize, Big Fat Whip with max Seething stacks with Major Berserk up....

Profit!!!!!

ForumBully

Forget sorcs for now...ok fine. I'll still play magsorc, it's got problems and there have been a lot of good suggestions to chew on til next time, but it's still playable for me despite the issues that ZoS clearly needs more time to grasp.
But Templar is hopeless and has been for long enough that the message should have been received by now. No additional time to examine anything is needed.
Mag Necro was just killed this update by killing the only trick it had up it's sleeve while being given nothing to compensate. Stamcro will be also middle of the pack due to the clumsy kit that apparently is the Necro identity, but still better off than mag.

How, in light of those problems, does it even enter the minds of a developer to strengthen a lesser used skills on the strongest class and call it a day? It is just baffling.

Tannus15

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
.

Interesting.

vDSR last boss HM damage rankings

the top 100 dps is made up of

18 necro
6 sorcs
8 templar
0 warden
1 nightblade
67 dragon knights

Xalvakka HM is worse.

Lord Falgravn HM is pretty much all necro and DK

Nahviintaas HM

It's all the same. Overwhelming numbers of DKs followed by a decent number of necro's and a handful of the rest.
Your endgame PVE balance isn't even close.
it's not slightly DK favoured, it's overwhelmingly DK favoured.

If you want to get into coordinated end game trial groups the answer is run a DK or you simply won't make the cut. Trial groups are not making this choice because of a <5% difference in performance.

Tannus15

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We've also seen feedback regarding Pet vs non-Pet builds. Specifically, wanting more options for non-Pet builds. While there will be no changes to this in U37, we want to acknowledge this sentiment and the team is monitoring this. We want to make sure when thinking about this and reviewing feedback, we are keeping class presentation for Pet Sorcerer in mind while also allowing for class diversity for those who want to play non-Pet Sorcerer.

I'd also love to know how you are monitoring this. It's certainly not via anything in the game, for while I *want* to run non-pet sorc, it's trash so i'm using pets. It's like saying you're monitoring heavy armour dps setups in trials.

Does this mean we should continue to shout about it on the forums otherwise it won't get attention?

Jaimeh

Tannus15 wrote: »

Xalvakka HM is worse.

Thanks for the rundown Tannus, I was curious how much worse it was for Rockgrove HM, so I counted:

2 sorcs
5 templars
2 necros
0 nightblades
0 wardens
91 DKs

91 DKs... I don't understand, are the devs not looking at the logs, or what's happening @ZOS_Kevin?

Tannus15

This is all the sorcs who have cleared vDSR HM
This is IT



I don't know how to paint a better picture of how bad the end game group composition is.

Wardens



it's all healers. NOT ONE WARDEN DPS HAS CLEARED IT.

This isn't top 100 dps. This is total clears by class.

23 nightblades have cleared vDSR HM.

Rockgrove HM is just the same. 14 sorc dps have cleared it and only 7 warden dps.

@ZOS_Kevin How can you sit there and tell us that the team is considering the state of all classes in all content when the data we have available clearly demonstrates that some classes have fallen so far behind?

dvonpm

Thecompton73 wrote: »

dvonpm wrote: »

Glantir wrote: »

Having access to silence is your argument?

For PvE we dont have 2014 anymore where people skip mechanics with negate

and for PvP i guess people just walk outsind the globe?

It's pretty useless in pve or pvp 1vx, but that is what group play and roots/snares/fears are for.

Group play pvp negates are super important, though that importance kind of scales with the number of enemy players attacking you.

Solo/small group pvp is a different animal, but there are better ultimate choices for those play styles. You want high damage/ short cooldowns more for those fights than high cost/low damage big AOEs.

Anyway, don't want to stray too OT, but tldr, negate is absolutely not useless, it's just maybe different play styles than you're used to. Perfectly timed negates are a thing of beauty It would be OP if it did anything else.

I love using a well timed negate to bust a group in PvP but as you say, it's not OP, so it shouldn't be pointed to as a reason it's acceptable to leave the class lacking in other areas.

Yeah for sure. And no it's not OP, but it would be if it did anything else.

It is definitely not the underperformer the person I responded to seemed to think it is, though.

DK however has felt like it is out performing all other classes except possibly NB, at least in pvp. Like even if other classes were not underperforming it would feel like they are relative to DK.

I'm a bit ambivalent about class balance as it seems to ebb and flow between classes every few updates on an almost rotating schedule, but even as little as I tend to worry about it, the DK thing has really stood out as kind of obnoxious.

TechMaybeHic

Tannus15 wrote: »

This is all the sorcs who have cleared vDSR HM
This is IT



I don't know how to paint a better picture of how bad the end game group composition is.

Wardens



it's all healers. NOT ONE WARDEN DPS HAS CLEARED IT.

This isn't top 100 dps. This is total clears by class.

23 nightblades have cleared vDSR HM.

Rockgrove HM is just the same. 14 sorc dps have cleared it and only 7 warden dps.

@ZOS_Kevin How can you sit there and tell us that the team is considering the state of all classes in all content when the data we have available clearly demonstrates that some classes have fallen so far behind?

I'd like to know where these numbers come from as well. PvP, you go to the kill 20 quest, Templar instant drop. DK is just as good as kill any

FantasticFreddie

Any class any race any ROLE has been a cornerstone of Elder Scrolls games.... well, forever.
To have classes like Dragonknight, Necromancer, and Warden, who are very very good at almost everything and then turn around and say "Well this class is SUPPOSED to be bad at stuff, because reasons" is just silly.

Currently, sorc is "best" at the 1 bar heavy attack oakensoul build, and that's it. It's ridiculous

CP5

Regarding sorcerers, I wanted to say, particularly about their ultimates from a pve perspective. Negate is mostly just a damage ultimate, anything dangerous isn't stunned and none of their abilities are silenced. The one place I found the stune to be useful lately was to drop it on the army of mudcrabs spawned during the tutral boss in vDSR, but it's better to just have a few layered aoes to kill them instead. It doesn't block abilities from being cast, it doesn't clear ground aoes, so again it just does damage most of the time. Then you have the storm atronach, whose main buff which was given group wide application recently is now on a spammable, significantly devaluing that skills synergy.

Beyond those, what do I offer my group when I come into a trial on my sorcerer? Shock damage doesn't have access to unique "target takes more damage from this element in particular" like fire has, it doesn't shine as an aoe damage type, so they aren't uniquely strong in cleaving things. If you use pets your bar space is very limited, and what few things you offer a group can be done better by others. I at least feel helpful to my group on my warden dps by debuffing the damage output of and chilling enemies as well as shielding my allies from projectiles, which is particularly strong in Rockgrove. What makes sorcerer unique hasn't been applicable to higher end pve content for a while.

xthrshx

Can we please get a statement about class identity that tells us what each class is supposed to be good and bad at?

Thecompton73

dvonpm wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

dvonpm wrote: »

Glantir wrote: »

Having access to silence is your argument?

For PvE we dont have 2014 anymore where people skip mechanics with negate

and for PvP i guess people just walk outsind the globe?

It's pretty useless in pve or pvp 1vx, but that is what group play and roots/snares/fears are for.

Group play pvp negates are super important, though that importance kind of scales with the number of enemy players attacking you.

Solo/small group pvp is a different animal, but there are better ultimate choices for those play styles. You want high damage/ short cooldowns more for those fights than high cost/low damage big AOEs.

Anyway, don't want to stray too OT, but tldr, negate is absolutely not useless, it's just maybe different play styles than you're used to. Perfectly timed negates are a thing of beauty It would be OP if it did anything else.

I love using a well timed negate to bust a group in PvP but as you say, it's not OP, so it shouldn't be pointed to as a reason it's acceptable to leave the class lacking in other areas.

Yeah for sure. And no it's not OP, but it would be if it did anything else.

It is definitely not the underperformer the person I responded to seemed to think it is, though.

DK however has felt like it is out performing all other classes except possibly NB, at least in pvp. Like even if other classes were not underperforming it would feel like they are relative to DK.

I'm a bit ambivalent about class balance as it seems to ebb and flow between classes every few updates on an almost rotating schedule, but even as little as I tend to worry about it, the DK thing has really stood out as kind of obnoxious.

In general when I'm on my brawler stam/hybrid Sorc vs my DK they both have different strengths for attacking but where I feel weak compared to my DK is the available burst heals. I hate the matriarch because how it looks, you have to double bar it and the darn thing dies so much anyway when you need it. Dark Deal has a cast time and is tiny compared to DK's instant burst heal.
I run two handed but if I'm low on health and Rally hasn't been ticking for more than 10 seconds and/or doesn't crit I'm still near execute and the heal for casting it again right away is almost nothing compared to still incoming damage. So while it can situationally refill my bar with it's max crit heal, depending on it as a main heal doesn't work out well in heavy pressure situations.

WuffyCerulei

Dekrypted wrote: »

Better off just announcing a class change token at this point. If they didn't say "Play how you want", every change could be justified with no question, but for all the people who try to play templar really can't.

Might as well rework the statement to read as "Play what we want you to play, and don't use those other ones"

A couple pages late on this, but I was honestly surprised when they said Class change tokens weren't being worked on, with "coding" and whatnot as an excuse. So they have Race and Alliance change tokens, both that fundamentally change a character. The Alliance change one does even more because it changes the whole Alliance, including the side of the map you can go to, the leaderboard, and more. It's quite baffling when those sorts of things are in the game, but not class changes. If the issue is having the class skills being changed, just have them be reset to 1 with a class change token. They're not that hard to level, especially for people over cp160. I love sorc, but the Arcanist is looking mighty tempting for my main.

Also the fact is that people WILL buy said tokens. Making and monetizing these tokens would bring in a bit for ZOS.

AdamLAD

Don't shoot the messenger people. Kevin is doing a fantastic job. It's the dev team that continues to baffle us. There's one noticeable quote that Kevin relayed, and that's a class can not be good at everything. That's a good thought in principle and should be adhered to. Unfortunately there's 3 classes that can do everything. Nightblade, Dragonknight and Warden. All of them are fantastic in PvE and fantastic in PvP, they can practically do all roles. Tank, heal, and especially DPS in PvE. Looking from a PvP perspective. There's literally nothing these classes do not have. They literally have everything they need. Dk literally had unlimited stamina sustain with ash cloud. These 3 classes have everything at there fingertips when it comes to PvP. So it's clear to me the devs DO NOT play PvP.. All are mobile due to how easy it is to stack speed, all have damage, all have great sustain, all have great healing and mitigation. These 5 core functions in PvP make them have everything more or less. It's all you need for PvP. Sorcerer has terrible sustain, terrible mitigation and terrible healing and terrible damage (Terrible damage is only due the fact we have to run so much resistance and sustain) so 4 out of the 5 main functions in PvP we don't have. And to add insult to injury our only mobility skill, Streak has ramping cost.

master_vanargand

@ZOS_Kevin
Why are you ignoring "Nightblade"?

"Concealed Weapon" has "your damage done is increased by 10%" and "increasing your Movement Speed by 15%".
"Surprise Attack" has "the Sundered status effect".
Don't you feel "game balance is bad" comparing these two?

Those of us who have been using "Stamina Nightblade" for many years find it painful to slot "never-used skills" and despair of having to use "Silver Shards" as spam.

I want to fight with the red blade of "Surprise Attack".
I don't want to use "Crossbow man".
Can't game creators understand the pain and despair of "PvE Stamina Nightblade"?

master_vanargand wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

Playing as a "PvE DPS Stamina Nightblade" for many years, my complaint is that using "Surprise Attack (stamina morph)" makes it weaker.

Throw away "Surprise Attack (stamina morph)" and put the never spamed "Concealed Weapon (magicka morph)" into the skill slot, increase DPS, spam "Silver Shards".

That's very stupid.

Yes, the DPS was high, but assassin lost a cool design.
In PvE and PvP, "Concealed Weapon (magicka morph)" is too strong, and "Surprise Attack (stamina morph)" is too weak to garbage.
Is it the game creator's wish to turn an assassin who fights with a red blade into a "Crossbow man"?

If so, the game creators have succeeded in giving despair.
Need move Concealed Weapon's "When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or Major Expedition ends while in combat, your damage done is increased by 10% for 5 seconds" to Veiled Strike (base skill).
Why can't you do something as simple as this?

Hybridization? No, it's Magickaization.

Does stamina have no choice but to do tank in PvE?
But DK and Necro do tanks... goodbye NB tank.
DPS is magicka only, Healer is magicka only, goodbye stamina builds.
Throw away the 95% trash sets and use the 5% good sets.
Players use strong DK. Other classes? you have the right to be weak.

Aren't these "weird states of balance"?

ESO ended up being a very boring world with no infinite builds.
If game creators find ESO fun right now, I'm very disappointed.

[My request]

master_vanargand wrote: »

Why are you ignoring Nightblade in PTS?
Nightblade's Stamina DPS and Magicka DPS are currently "weird states of balance", with Stamina DPS suffering from identity loss in PvE and PvP.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Concealed Weapon is too strong and Surprise Attack feels weak.
When I saw a video of PvE stamina NB slotting a Concealed Weapon and spamming Silver Shards, I felt NB lost its identity.
Yes, the DPS in that video was quite high, but it looks like the assassin has lost cool design.

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Honestly, Nightblade is in a very solid place relative to the other classes this patch, however there are 2 main concerns as an endgame PvE player;

1. Surprise Attack, the Stamina Morph of Veiled Strike, is never used by Stamblades. The extra damage bonus from Concealed Weapon (the mag morph) makes the stam morph obsolete for most optomized builds, even if the build itself only has Concealed on it's bar just for it's passive effects. I would like to see a small rework of this skill, as Stamina focused Nightblades should run the Stamina skill and not suffer damage loss
2. Relentless Focus, the Stam Morph of Grim Focus, is also made obsolete by it's mag counterpart Merciless Resolve. Merciless Hit's 33% harder, which is a lot, and the only down side is it shortens the buff duration from 1 minute to 40 seconds. 40 seconds is still a really long time, and thus even it being 20 seconds shorter is a very small downside. I would like to see Relentless get a buff, either by making the ability have some AoE damage (which Nightblade sorely lacks in Endgame PvE content), or perhaps increase the Weapon and Spell Damage given by the stacks of the ability

Now, Stamina Nightblade is weaker when using Surprise Attack (stamina morph) in PvP and PvE.
Concealed Weapons (magicka morph) have "When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or Major Expedition ends while in combat, your damage done is increased by 10% for 5 seconds", so even Stamina DPS will not use Surprise Attack (stamina morph).

Also, Concealed Weapons have "While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 15%", so there is no reason to use Surprise Attack in PvP.
While Concealed Weapon has two big benefits of "+10% damage" and "+15% Movement Speed", Surprise Attack has only one small benefit.

And, Stamina Nightblade uses Merciless Resolve (magick morph) in PvE and PvP.
This is because Merciless Resolve (magicka morph) is better than Relentless Focus (stamina morph).
Do the math, Merciless Resolve does more damage than Relentless Focus. (Better in PvE because better damage allows you to shoot more in relation to execution time.)
and Merciless Resolve has higher heal than Relentless Focus.
This is why Stamina Nightblade does not use Relentless Focus.

Also, Siphoning Passive ability's Magicka Flood has "Increases your Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted".
Hybridization? Where is it?

This is the "Strange State of Balance".
And the source of the grief of the "Stamina Nightblade" who suffers from the loss of identity.

Is this an experiment to remove Stamina Nightblade DPS?
If not, please change it immediately.
Patience is the limit.

[Wish list]

1. Need move Concealed Weapon's "When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or Major Expedition ends while in combat, your damage done is increased by 10% for 5 seconds" to Veiled Strike (base skill).
2. Make Relentless Focus damage the same as Merciless Resolve.
3. Add "+8% Max Stamina" to Siphoning Passive ability's Magicka Flood. (may need to change the name)
4. Teleport Strike (and morph) is too weak in PvP and PvE. The old ESO, Teleport Strike have stun. Now age, need add stun to Teleport Strike.

KlauthWarthog

AdamLAD wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger people. Kevin is doing a fantastic job. It's the dev team that continues to baffle us.

Indeed, Kevin is doing a fantastic job, the communication on this PTS cycle has been very good, and most of it is because of his actions.
The actual changes, and the reasonings presented, are quite questionable, but the communication itself has been a breath of fresh air.

The_Titan_Tim

AdamLAD wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger people. Kevin is doing a fantastic job. It's the dev team that continues to baffle us. There's one noticeable quote that Kevin relayed, and that's a class can not be good at everything. That's a good thought in principle and should be adhered to. Unfortunately there's 3 classes that can do everything. Nightblade, Dragonknight and Warden. All of them are fantastic in PvE and fantastic in PvP, they can practically do all roles. Tank, heal, and especially DPS in PvE. Looking from a PvP perspective. There's literally nothing these classes do not have. They literally have everything they need. Dk literally had unlimited stamina sustain with ash cloud. These 3 classes have everything at there fingertips when it comes to PvP. So it's clear to me the devs DO NOT play PvP.. All are mobile due to how easy it is to stack speed, all have damage, all have great sustain, all have great healing and mitigation. These 5 core functions in PvP make them have everything more or less. It's all you need for PvP. Sorcerer has terrible sustain, terrible mitigation and terrible healing and terrible damage (Terrible damage is only due the fact we have to run so much resistance and sustain) so 4 out of the 5 main functions in PvP we don't have. And to add insult to injury our only mobility skill, Streak has ramping cost.

You’ve pretty much hit it on the head, I’ve got a pretty good idea of where each class’s missing areas of in-class capability are, but an official statement on their end would help turn a lot of these conversations into constructive back and forth.

If most people were aware that Templar’s deficit area was damage, they would stop shouting for buffs to damage, and instead would be more focused on areas that are misaligned with the vision for our classes, like utility or healing.

@ZOS_Kevin having an official post about where each class stands, or even adding radar charts showing where these classes fit when in the character creation screen as a fair warning to players creating new characters about each strength and weakness would be a massive step in the right direction, encouraging quality discussions that respect your team’s values and opinions.

Something like these would be amazing to have when creating a new character, and would help as a general reference point when discussing class balance as the charts would represent what each class is supposed to be excelling at. Fair warning; these are from 2020 and are in no way indicative of where we are currently.