The Elder Scrolls Online

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ESO Developer Deep Dive - Core Combat Values

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  • Crash427
    Crash427
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    Erorah wrote: »
    Crash427 wrote: »
    You're saying "normal" gamers can't play games that require two joysticks? So every FPS out there, with all the millions of players playing them, aren't playable by "normal" gamers? What would be your ideal, point and click to move to a spot? Preload a series of spells or combos?

    Nooo!! I have seen those. They are atrocious [read:LostArk]. I would just like to go and SEE left when I move left, not strafe. But there is no option for this in the game.
    And you misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with using two joysticks.. But you should not need BOTH just to move :dizzy:
    And the same goes for having to do all the things and at all the same time. You may have been born with a controller in your hands. Many and including myself, were not ;) [/quote]

    I was born long before twin stick controllers were a thing, and i'm old enough to know osteoarthritis really puts a damper on things. There are more options than ever for accessibility though. It takes some trial and error, but there are great third party options. I won't advocate for the devs nerfing things other people love just to accommodate my issues.
  • Billium813
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    Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
    ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
    AJTC5000 wrote: »
    Could you please define who "play the way you want" is meant for? Is it really meant for everyone, including the end-game raiding community?

    Part of the reason raid teams are so critically optimised, with people forced to play certain roles and/or abilities is because of how overtuned the content is, especially recently.

    Take Reef Guardian HM, a fight where a DK tank is king simply because of Magma Shell allowing you to ignore most of the damage. How would a Necro tank compare here, or a NB? I'm not even going to talk about how bottom-of-the-ladder Templar tank is, a class that is supposed to embody the paladin identity and one I would have thought should be second behind DK. Is this the "play the way you want" mantra in practice?

    I get that each class should bring something to the table, to have some measure of class identity, a reason to go "Oh, I want to play that class because". But it seems recently you cannot balance that with "play the way you want" in the settings that test the player the most. If that's the way it's intended to be then so be it, but I'd prefer you to outright say that, instead of just repeating the same buzzwords.

    As is mentioned above, we recognize that some combinations are going to be more effective than others, but our goal is to ensure every character can protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes in some capacity. Completing Hard Mode content is going to require more skill and an optimized character, and that's where Mastery comes in.

    Stamina Templars are virtually extinct in PVP zones, due to u35 and u36. Could you please explain the reasoning for nerfing the entire class kit into a ranged Magplar Jesus beam viable option as the only DPS option now?
    Templar healer role is still not near the top, but in Cyro groups the only valid templar is one spamming healing ult, or Jbeam spammer.

    This is what happens when you become the "best PvP class". ZOS has adopted a management style of "pound whatever nail is sticking out today" and, because its almost IMPOSSIBLE TO DO CORRECTLY, they over nerf a lot.

    I'v been playing Stamplar for like 4 years and I can totally feel the changes in PvP. I hit like a wet noodle now. I have no burst anymore! I still have SOME survivability thanks to heals, but if I run out of my AOE circles, I'm dead! Living Dark seems to do nothing. Dmg feels like its been ground out of the class. Everyone else has mobile heals which, in PvP, is WAY more useful cause PvP is fluid and dynamic. Templar has to get in close (danger), and operate within an AOE circle for sustain. When we step out, we have to build up in a new location! Meanwhile, other classes are more mobile and fluid.

    I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.
    Edited by Billium813 on December 21, 2022 1:02AM
    Improve the usefulness of Treasures | Inventory Management Quality of Life Suggestions | Racial Passives & Hybridization | New zone: Southern Hammerfell
  • The_Titan_Tim
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

    Most of Templar damage is coming from outside of the class right now after losing Puncturing Strikes, which I’m not exactly too bothered by, as jabbing away at people for 7 years straight got a little boring, being that no other ability came remotely close to being in an acceptable spot as a spammable by comparison.

    Have to say though, there is massive power behind a medium weaved guaranteed Crescent from a Dizzying Swing. If you need help with dueling on Stamplar, I’ve got arguable the most recognizable one on Xbox NA right now. The class still works, although it is significantly harder to play now, my advice to you, check out Blackrose dual-wield for your backbar, Quick Cloak gives so much as it is, then you add on the 6% damage + 6% mitigation and well…

    You just gotta see it to believe it.
  • Arwin
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    It's true that a lot of builds got closer to each other in terms of performance, in that sense I do believe balance improved not counting a few ongoing class exceptions that need work (Tank / Heal diversity in PvE, Corrosive in PvP).

    Unfortunately this improved balance did kill a great amount of unique niche builds that had different playstyles whilst achieving similar results, so this balance and hybridization did come with some homogenization. While not game breaking this can feel like something is missing when there is a lot of choice in terms of stats, but not in terms of actual gameplay.
    I like to believe Mythics could play a role here to significantly alter the gameplay experience without too much divergence in average end result (for the sake of balance, of course). Perhaps something for the future along with the class shortcomings & excesses I already mentioned.
  • Jabbs_Giggity
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
    ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
    AJTC5000 wrote: »
    Could you please define who "play the way you want" is meant for? Is it really meant for everyone, including the end-game raiding community?

    Part of the reason raid teams are so critically optimised, with people forced to play certain roles and/or abilities is because of how overtuned the content is, especially recently.

    Take Reef Guardian HM, a fight where a DK tank is king simply because of Magma Shell allowing you to ignore most of the damage. How would a Necro tank compare here, or a NB? I'm not even going to talk about how bottom-of-the-ladder Templar tank is, a class that is supposed to embody the paladin identity and one I would have thought should be second behind DK. Is this the "play the way you want" mantra in practice?

    I get that each class should bring something to the table, to have some measure of class identity, a reason to go "Oh, I want to play that class because". But it seems recently you cannot balance that with "play the way you want" in the settings that test the player the most. If that's the way it's intended to be then so be it, but I'd prefer you to outright say that, instead of just repeating the same buzzwords.

    As is mentioned above, we recognize that some combinations are going to be more effective than others, but our goal is to ensure every character can protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes in some capacity. Completing Hard Mode content is going to require more skill and an optimized character, and that's where Mastery comes in.

    Stamina Templars are virtually extinct in PVP zones, due to u35 and u36. Could you please explain the reasoning for nerfing the entire class kit into a ranged Magplar Jesus beam viable option as the only DPS option now?
    Templar healer role is still not near the top, but in Cyro groups the only valid templar is one spamming healing ult, or Jbeam spammer.

    This is what happens when you become the "best PvP class". ZOS has adopted a management style of "pound whatever nail is sticking out today" and, because its almost IMPOSSIBLE TO DO CORRECTLY, they over nerf a lot.

    I'v been playing Stamplar for like 4 years and I can totally feel the changes in PvP. I hit like a wet noodle now. I have no burst anymore! I still have SOME survivability thanks to heals, but if I run out of my AOE circles, I'm dead! Living Dark seems to do nothing. Dmg feels like its been ground out of the class. Everyone else has mobile heals which, in PvP, is WAY more useful cause PvP is fluid and dynamic. Templar has to get in close (danger), and operate within an AOE circle for sustain. When we step out, we have to build up in a new location! Meanwhile, other classes are more mobile and fluid.

    I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

    If a class is "too good" which Stamplar isn't, and never was "too good" then other classes should be brought to similar standards as DK and NB have both been brought back up to the top after many years if nerfs also.
    Stamina Templar is arguably one of the most difficult classes to master, in terms of being top (PVP-wise).
    Stamina templar DPS is heavily tied to single-targeting with PotL while still having to maintain pressure and timing to get that burst, it wasn't automatic like NB's AW. The huge nerfs to Jabs has been the downfall for a while.
    1. It never was 100% reliable, as most jabs channels only hit partially 2-3 out of 4 jabs. Arguably weaker and less effective than whip or SA/CW, rng-wise the same as frag just less potent, cutting dive (while not a staple choice) has great utility and ranged, not much experience with Necro but scythe isn't bad.
    2. Jabs nerfed when affected by evasion. 20% automatic nerf.
    3. 25% nerf in u35 (not counting double-dip into BL nerf).

    Hybridization has allowed ALL classes access to burst heals, but Templar still lacks the utility other classes get in mitigation and mobility.

    Forcing me to play another class when I don't prefer to, just to hold a marginal interest still in the game is not "play as you want" when what I want to play isn't viable anymore at all.

    If I want to Dswing build, other classes are far better for it.

    I have been playing stamsorc and love it, but it's soo different from my stamplar playstyle and stamsorc lacks a functional burst heal, even with Hybridization because sacrificing two bar slots for twilight doesn't work, as you lose huge amounts of DPS to give up slots.

    Templar is only viable as:
    1. Stamina Dswing spammer
    2. Healer (mediocre) but viable for PVP groups, due to healing ult.
    3. Jbeam spammer from back of the zerg pack.

    None of the above are remotely "interesting" or rewarding.

    Edit for TL/DR: #makeblazingshieldgreatagain
    Edited by Jabbs_Giggity on December 21, 2022 2:23AM
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    The_Titan_Tim wrote: »
    Billium813 wrote: »
    I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

    Most of Templar damage is coming from outside of the class right now after losing Puncturing Strikes, which I’m not exactly too bothered by, as jabbing away at people for 7 years straight got a little boring, being that no other ability came remotely close to being in an acceptable spot as a spammable by comparison.

    Have to say though, there is massive power behind a medium weaved guaranteed Crescent from a Dizzying Swing. If you need help with dueling on Stamplar, I’ve got arguable the most recognizable one on Xbox NA right now. The class still works, although it is significantly harder to play now, my advice to you, check out Blackrose dual-wield for your backbar, Quick Cloak gives so much as it is, then you add on the 6% damage + 6% mitigation and well…

    You just gotta see it to believe it.

    Do you go by a different GT in-game? I've come across 1 stamplar this entire campaign (GH) and I am pretty sure it was someone who was trying a build they instantly regretted.
    Any other templar I've come across is a jbeamer or healer in a large group.
  • Camkitty2
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    in terms of build diversity, it would be kind of nice if there was more viability for snares, slows, and other crowd control abilities in PvE, because as it stands right now, they are really most useful in PvP builds.

    in PvE so many bosses are immune to most forms of CC abilities that these abilities get dropped in favor of straight up damage. And most of the enemies that are affected by CC abilities die so fast that it's barely worth it.

    Personally, I've always found that being able to use CC abilities effectively in combat is actually a lot of fun, and helps make fights feel more active and engaging. But as it is now, they dont seem that useful outside of PvP.
    Just my two cents I guess.
  • RedBranch
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    Getting people to buy into your vision and values is essential. Thanks for sharing… flexibility is absolutely one of ESO driving forces. With that said. Class change token? ;-)
    https://twitter.com/redbranchh
  • Sennecca
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    This "deep dive confuses" me. "Play how you want with build selection, champion points.." Every change in the last few updates has removed build selection making a certain combination of armor, skills weapon so overpowered and others so underpowered that EVERY Character I have is wearing 1) The Same armor sets because every other armor set and weight combination is so inferior and offers no benefit. 2)Has the same champion point set up 3) Uses the same weapons and mostly the same skills. Every other weapon so underperforms daggers that Mages who many envision as staff wielding, magic throwing classes are standing in bosses faces slashing them with daggers.
    ".... transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor." Theorycrafting used to be one of the things I found most fun in the game. When every other set combination so underperforms 2 or 3 other sets, there is no diversity or ability to choose a playstyle.
  • Faulgor
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    Well, here are my 2 drakes...

    Many people have commented that hybridization actually homogenized builds, but that wasn't my experience. Admittedly I don't do trials anymore, my endgame are solo arenas and dungeons, but hybridization has vastly increased the options in abilities and sets my characters can use viably to let me play the way I want.

    IMHO, the issues that lead to more homogenization weren't caused by hybrids, but merely highlighted by them. Overpowered sets and lackluster diversity in necessary group composition have been an issue at least since Morrowind. I stopped doing trials back then when Sunderflame was changed so radically, setting the path for homogenzation in the effects different builds can bring to the table.

    The issue is that, while you allow build diversity in princple, in effect they all have to perform and play exactly the same because you don't want to lock people out of encounters. That means that specific builds can't be better or worse than any other, which means the only difference between builds is their DPS score, always favoring one specific setup as the meta. Hybridization is immaterial to that problem, because we have been through several updates before where only one class or build type (stam vs mag) was the meta in endgame content.

    If you want to take a page out of the Elder Scrolls book, why don't enemies have specific elemental weaknesses, for instance? Weaknesses or resistances against certain weapon types, DoTs vs direct damage? Building for frost, bleed or bow damage could be a valuable asset to your group for specific encounters, but as far as I know, those are not considerations for endgame content.

    But no matter how many options you add, the actual gameplay, what you would call mastery, is still the same for every build - keep up DOTs, spammable, light attack weaving. The only alternative are niche heavy attack builds, which have been through continuous nerf and buff cycles and can't be considered more than afterthoughts. Heck, we used to have melee heavy attack builds, nowadays heavy attack is synonymous with lightning staff.

    In the few instances where some restrictions on build performance do apply, they are mostly centered around classes and other roles like tanking. Which runs counter to your own stated goals that every class should be able to fill every role.

    In the end, all of the design principles and goals you have listed are commendable. The issue is that no only are they in part not reached, they are at odds with each other. You do have a considerable task ahead of you if you want to square that circle, but I think it can be done.

    a) Sharpen class identity across roles. Yes, every class should be able to fill every role, but how does a Sorcerer Tank differ from a Nightblade Tank, and how can you ensure a Sorcerer Tank and Sorcerer Healer still both feel like Sorcerers? IMO this would be easiest to accomplish by focusing around certain mechanics or status effects for every class, e.g. DKs would benefit from setting enemies on fire no matter their role.

    b) Finish hybridization. You promised to do this a year ago, but this really needs to happen soon to set ESO on a better basis.

    c) Continue to balance builds. Especially in the realm of gear sets, the difference is wild, and because of hybridization, these issues are highlighted to everyone's annoyance. For abilitites, after Update 35, DoTs aren't in a good spot imo.

    d) Increase combat gameplay variety. Mastering light attack weaving can be fun, and I'd rather other forms of gameplay to be encouraging rather than light attack weaving be discouraged. More weapons should be viable for heavy attack builds. For the lower end of players, new playstyles centered around continuous light attacks could be established. You said cast times are the exception, but is there no space for dedicated casters in your active combat?

    e) Increase encounter variety. This is probably the most difficult, labor intensive and controversial, but I really feel it's important to consider. Without making different builds effective in different encounters, build diversity just means there is a more diverse underclass below the DPS meta overlord.

    Not sure all of my rambling was on point, but then, the post was pretty broad and vague, too.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Sarannah
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    First of all, thank you for your post, but to me there are a few concerns:
    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    So, what is our vision for combat in ESO? In a nutshell, we want combat to feel fun and rewarding to all players. We have a wide variety of players with unique interests and motivations for playing, so we recognize that what feels “fun and rewarding” is a little different for everyone. Our goal is to strike a good balance, and just like our community has evolved over time, so has the need to address things that didn’t align with our combat core values. It’s also worth noting that these core values are aspirational, not hard rules or a definition of the current reality; they are the values to which we aspire with combat design and what we strive to meet when considering adjustments to combat in ESO.
    Fun and rewarding to all players, does this mean the skillgap is going to be closed? Because 10k or 100k dps with the same builds/gear is not fun and rewarding. Both for that player, and those they are grouped with.

    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    Play The Way You Want
    We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.
    • Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armor
    • Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
    • "Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.
    To me this reads: We are not going to enforce roles in the dungeonfinder, no matter how many players are now having horrible experiences due to speedrunners and fake roles. Though I agree with what is said, there needs to be a line, especially if you still want players to play in groups together. Because the longer this 'freedom and flexibility' goes on in groupplay, the more players ESO will lose. For solo this is good, for groupplay there needs to be a line players cannot cross. These core combat values clash with the basics of an MMO, to stop players from abusing other players.
    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    Mastery
    Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.
    • Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
    • Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
    • Optimizing ability rotations and timing
    • Light attack weaving
    • Group “builds” and synergies
    I get that you want combat to be engaging, and that there needs to be room to grow. But right now most of this list(bolded) excludes many players from quite some of the game's content, as this list assumes everyone is top tier or will be top tier one day. Not even taking into question if they even want to be top tier. Some of this list(and barswapping) excludes a very very large group of players from playing higher content. Shouldn't the goal be to get more players playing(including in higher content), instead of chasing most away, and having few left playing. Currently many do not see this engaging/challenging combat as "let's do this!", but rather as "screw that, I'm going to try another game!". It looks like a mountain to climb, but only very few actually want to make that climb. It is a game afer all.
    In my opinion, the game should provide these mastery mechanics(and barswapping) until a player has mastered them. Once they have mastered these mechanics, they should automatically take over control of them. Basically raising the floor, or as I have called it in other threads "crutch mechanics": Auto barswap, more skilldamage when not light attack weaving, automatic resource management, etc. These won't affect the top tier player, but will let inexperienced players and bad players(like me) have a much higher floor. And once they master one or more of these mechanics, they can choose to perform them manually, as that will/should always provide a better result.
    PS: Ultimate should automatically regen like all the other resources, one ultimate per second.

    In general: Totally love the game, but this post has me worried about quite a few things. I already know I will never be a top tier player, as those days are behind me. So to me this post reads like I should stop playing now, because there is nothing to hold on to for the future. I'm not leaving or anything, as I love the game, but some parts of this post make me feel like I should.
    Edited by Sarannah on December 21, 2022 9:25AM
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