ESO Developer Deep Dive - Core Combat Values

DustyWarehouse

I look forward to every future patch notes related to combat changes having a developer comment explaining the goal of the change, which of the core values the change relates to and how it will achieve the stated goal.

UntilValhalla13

"Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat."

Dude, nobody talks like this... Would you phrase things in this manner when talking to someone in person? It just comes across like corporate-speak from an entity who either doesn't play the game or is completely detached from its playerbase. We're people. Treat us as such, and not just numbers on a spreadsheet. We would probably be more understanding about things.

loosej

Think I get it now, I remember Gina mentioning she was doing the monday jokes a while back, so I guess Brian is doing the tuesday ones.

ForumBully

Unfortunately, this statement is almost certainly the last word we get from the devs for awhile. It took months of asking about the Q&A to get to a point where ZOS felt like they should hand out something they dug out of a desk drawer that reads like a first draft trying to explain the plan for what ESO combat will be like when it launches. Months...just to get this. They're done now. They "communicated".

If you're still giving them money, well, I hope you enjoyed the communication.

Crash427

Erorah wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

You're saying "normal" gamers can't play games that require two joysticks? So every FPS out there, with all the millions of players playing them, aren't playable by "normal" gamers? What would be your ideal, point and click to move to a spot? Preload a series of spells or combos?

Nooo!! I have seen those. They are atrocious [read:LostArk]. I would just like to go and SEE left when I move left, not strafe. But there is no option for this in the game.
And you misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with using two joysticks.. But you should not need BOTH just to move
And the same goes for having to do all the things and at all the same time. You may have been born with a controller in your hands. Many and including myself, were not [/quote]

I was born long before twin stick controllers were a thing, and i'm old enough to know osteoarthritis really puts a damper on things. There are more options than ever for accessibility though. It takes some trial and error, but there are great third party options. I won't advocate for the devs nerfing things other people love just to accommodate my issues.

Billium813

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

AJTC5000 wrote: »

Could you please define who "play the way you want" is meant for? Is it really meant for everyone, including the end-game raiding community?

Part of the reason raid teams are so critically optimised, with people forced to play certain roles and/or abilities is because of how overtuned the content is, especially recently.

Take Reef Guardian HM, a fight where a DK tank is king simply because of Magma Shell allowing you to ignore most of the damage. How would a Necro tank compare here, or a NB? I'm not even going to talk about how bottom-of-the-ladder Templar tank is, a class that is supposed to embody the paladin identity and one I would have thought should be second behind DK. Is this the "play the way you want" mantra in practice?

I get that each class should bring something to the table, to have some measure of class identity, a reason to go "Oh, I want to play that class because". But it seems recently you cannot balance that with "play the way you want" in the settings that test the player the most. If that's the way it's intended to be then so be it, but I'd prefer you to outright say that, instead of just repeating the same buzzwords.

As is mentioned above, we recognize that some combinations are going to be more effective than others, but our goal is to ensure every character can protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes in some capacity. Completing Hard Mode content is going to require more skill and an optimized character, and that's where Mastery comes in.

Stamina Templars are virtually extinct in PVP zones, due to u35 and u36. Could you please explain the reasoning for nerfing the entire class kit into a ranged Magplar Jesus beam viable option as the only DPS option now?
Templar healer role is still not near the top, but in Cyro groups the only valid templar is one spamming healing ult, or Jbeam spammer.

This is what happens when you become the "best PvP class". ZOS has adopted a management style of "pound whatever nail is sticking out today" and, because its almost IMPOSSIBLE TO DO CORRECTLY, they over nerf a lot.

I'v been playing Stamplar for like 4 years and I can totally feel the changes in PvP. I hit like a wet noodle now. I have no burst anymore! I still have SOME survivability thanks to heals, but if I run out of my AOE circles, I'm dead! Living Dark seems to do nothing. Dmg feels like its been ground out of the class. Everyone else has mobile heals which, in PvP, is WAY more useful cause PvP is fluid and dynamic. Templar has to get in close (danger), and operate within an AOE circle for sustain. When we step out, we have to build up in a new location! Meanwhile, other classes are more mobile and fluid.

I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

The_Titan_Tim

Billium813 wrote: »

I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

Most of Templar damage is coming from outside of the class right now after losing Puncturing Strikes, which I’m not exactly too bothered by, as jabbing away at people for 7 years straight got a little boring, being that no other ability came remotely close to being in an acceptable spot as a spammable by comparison.

Have to say though, there is massive power behind a medium weaved guaranteed Crescent from a Dizzying Swing. If you need help with dueling on Stamplar, I’ve got arguable the most recognizable one on Xbox NA right now. The class still works, although it is significantly harder to play now, my advice to you, check out Blackrose dual-wield for your backbar, Quick Cloak gives so much as it is, then you add on the 6% damage + 6% mitigation and well…

You just gotta see it to believe it.

joergino

This was an incredibly horrible message which leaves me with nothing but dread for any future patches and the game in general.

Arwin

It's true that a lot of builds got closer to each other in terms of performance, in that sense I do believe balance improved not counting a few ongoing class exceptions that need work (Tank / Heal diversity in PvE, Corrosive in PvP).

Unfortunately this improved balance did kill a great amount of unique niche builds that had different playstyles whilst achieving similar results, so this balance and hybridization did come with some homogenization. While not game breaking this can feel like something is missing when there is a lot of choice in terms of stats, but not in terms of actual gameplay.
I like to believe Mythics could play a role here to significantly alter the gameplay experience without too much divergence in average end result (for the sake of balance, of course). Perhaps something for the future along with the class shortcomings & excesses I already mentioned.

Jabbs_Giggity

Billium813 wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

AJTC5000 wrote: »

Could you please define who "play the way you want" is meant for? Is it really meant for everyone, including the end-game raiding community?

Part of the reason raid teams are so critically optimised, with people forced to play certain roles and/or abilities is because of how overtuned the content is, especially recently.

Take Reef Guardian HM, a fight where a DK tank is king simply because of Magma Shell allowing you to ignore most of the damage. How would a Necro tank compare here, or a NB? I'm not even going to talk about how bottom-of-the-ladder Templar tank is, a class that is supposed to embody the paladin identity and one I would have thought should be second behind DK. Is this the "play the way you want" mantra in practice?

I get that each class should bring something to the table, to have some measure of class identity, a reason to go "Oh, I want to play that class because". But it seems recently you cannot balance that with "play the way you want" in the settings that test the player the most. If that's the way it's intended to be then so be it, but I'd prefer you to outright say that, instead of just repeating the same buzzwords.

As is mentioned above, we recognize that some combinations are going to be more effective than others, but our goal is to ensure every character can protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes in some capacity. Completing Hard Mode content is going to require more skill and an optimized character, and that's where Mastery comes in.

Stamina Templars are virtually extinct in PVP zones, due to u35 and u36. Could you please explain the reasoning for nerfing the entire class kit into a ranged Magplar Jesus beam viable option as the only DPS option now?
Templar healer role is still not near the top, but in Cyro groups the only valid templar is one spamming healing ult, or Jbeam spammer.

This is what happens when you become the "best PvP class". ZOS has adopted a management style of "pound whatever nail is sticking out today" and, because its almost IMPOSSIBLE TO DO CORRECTLY, they over nerf a lot.

I'v been playing Stamplar for like 4 years and I can totally feel the changes in PvP. I hit like a wet noodle now. I have no burst anymore! I still have SOME survivability thanks to heals, but if I run out of my AOE circles, I'm dead! Living Dark seems to do nothing. Dmg feels like its been ground out of the class. Everyone else has mobile heals which, in PvP, is WAY more useful cause PvP is fluid and dynamic. Templar has to get in close (danger), and operate within an AOE circle for sustain. When we step out, we have to build up in a new location! Meanwhile, other classes are more mobile and fluid.

I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

If a class is "too good" which Stamplar isn't, and never was "too good" then other classes should be brought to similar standards as DK and NB have both been brought back up to the top after many years if nerfs also.
Stamina Templar is arguably one of the most difficult classes to master, in terms of being top (PVP-wise).
Stamina templar DPS is heavily tied to single-targeting with PotL while still having to maintain pressure and timing to get that burst, it wasn't automatic like NB's AW. The huge nerfs to Jabs has been the downfall for a while.
1. It never was 100% reliable, as most jabs channels only hit partially 2-3 out of 4 jabs. Arguably weaker and less effective than whip or SA/CW, rng-wise the same as frag just less potent, cutting dive (while not a staple choice) has great utility and ranged, not much experience with Necro but scythe isn't bad.
2. Jabs nerfed when affected by evasion. 20% automatic nerf.
3. 25% nerf in u35 (not counting double-dip into BL nerf).

Hybridization has allowed ALL classes access to burst heals, but Templar still lacks the utility other classes get in mitigation and mobility.

Forcing me to play another class when I don't prefer to, just to hold a marginal interest still in the game is not "play as you want" when what I want to play isn't viable anymore at all.

If I want to Dswing build, other classes are far better for it.

I have been playing stamsorc and love it, but it's soo different from my stamplar playstyle and stamsorc lacks a functional burst heal, even with Hybridization because sacrificing two bar slots for twilight doesn't work, as you lose huge amounts of DPS to give up slots.

Templar is only viable as:
1. Stamina Dswing spammer
2. Healer (mediocre) but viable for PVP groups, due to healing ult.
3. Jbeam spammer from back of the zerg pack.

None of the above are remotely "interesting" or rewarding.

Edit for TL/DR: #makeblazingshieldgreatagain

Jabbs_Giggity

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

Most of Templar damage is coming from outside of the class right now after losing Puncturing Strikes, which I’m not exactly too bothered by, as jabbing away at people for 7 years straight got a little boring, being that no other ability came remotely close to being in an acceptable spot as a spammable by comparison.

Have to say though, there is massive power behind a medium weaved guaranteed Crescent from a Dizzying Swing. If you need help with dueling on Stamplar, I’ve got arguable the most recognizable one on Xbox NA right now. The class still works, although it is significantly harder to play now, my advice to you, check out Blackrose dual-wield for your backbar, Quick Cloak gives so much as it is, then you add on the 6% damage + 6% mitigation and well…

You just gotta see it to believe it.

Do you go by a different GT in-game? I've come across 1 stamplar this entire campaign (GH) and I am pretty sure it was someone who was trying a build they instantly regretted.
Any other templar I've come across is a jbeamer or healer in a large group.

Panchaea

"We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. "

Go off sis, you haven't done anything about the dual wield/2h meta for over a year for DPS, and literally every "meta" setup is identical to one another. There is no plan or wider view here, but I totally love my character fantasy of being a mage being fully conceptualised by smacking enemies with a claymore.

MetallicMonk

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Much of the work we’ve done over the past few years – such as updating the Champion Point system and the hybridization work – has vastly improved build options, gameplay variety and build equality, which supports several of our values.

You guys are kidding right?

Mace1994

eovogtb16_ESO

What if we want to block?

Camkitty2

in terms of build diversity, it would be kind of nice if there was more viability for snares, slows, and other crowd control abilities in PvE, because as it stands right now, they are really most useful in PvP builds.

in PvE so many bosses are immune to most forms of CC abilities that these abilities get dropped in favor of straight up damage. And most of the enemies that are affected by CC abilities die so fast that it's barely worth it.

Personally, I've always found that being able to use CC abilities effectively in combat is actually a lot of fun, and helps make fights feel more active and engaging. But as it is now, they dont seem that useful outside of PvP.
Just my two cents I guess.

BlueRaven

This post did not say anything.

“All classes can rank, dps, and heal.”

“We can wear any armor, use any weapon…”.

Ok, and?

Did this really need to be written?

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

This post did not say anything.

“All classes can rank, dps, and heal.”

“We can wear any armor, use any weapon…”.

Ok, and?

Did this really need to be written?

It seems to be more of an infomercial for folks surfing the web looking for a new game to play. There isn’t anything new in the message for folks who have actually been playing for a while. The veteran players are the ones waiting for the promised information about the Update 35 combat changes.

I don’t think we are the target audience at all.

anvilbert

A lot of self placating gobbledygook and no real substance that players asked for.

VaranisArano

I do feel like I better understand how the Devs envision ESO's gameplay and some of the vision that's driving the changes over the last couple years. Some level of change is always going to happen in an MMO. Can't have ESO get stagnant and boring, after all.

However, the Combat Q&A was originally supposed to be in response to U35.

I'm afraid I still don't really understand how the final version of U35 fit into this vision, nor whether it accomplished its goals.

My concern is that as players we've seen a lot of changes made towards this aspirational gameplay, with no end in sight, and we don't even know if the changes in U35 worked or not. Was the floor raised? Was the ceiling lowered? Was content made more accessible?

What I'd like to see for the next Deep Dive: the Devs discuss what they mean by "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" and frankly discuss their past attempts, successes, and failures in doing so. We've been through multiple attempts at this over the years and it'd be nice to hear about it from the Devs' perspective before the next round of "lowering the ceiling" comes around.

RedBranch

Getting people to buy into your vision and values is essential. Thanks for sharing… flexibility is absolutely one of ESO driving forces. With that said. Class change token? ;-)

sbr32

After playing ESO for ~9k hours over 5 years (2017-2022) I think I have logged into this game once since week 1 of the U35 PTS patch notes. I still occasionally check these forums because this game meant a lot to me, I had a lot of fun and met some great people, some of whom are still friends.

After reading this complete joke of a "deep dive"/ replacement for the promised Q&A I had a lot of thoughts and feelings and was trying to figure out what to say and how to say it, but then realized I just didn't care enough anymore. I have moved on to another MMO where the dev team doesn't actively dislike their paying customers, and I have realized how good that feels.

Peace!

Anhedonie

You gonna catch a lot of flak for this nothingburger guys.

Jaraal

VaranisArano wrote: »

What I'd like to see for the next Deep Dive: the Devs discuss what they mean by "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" and frankly discuss their past attempts, successes, and failures in doing so. We've been through multiple attempts at this over the years and it'd be nice to hear about it from the Devs' perspective before the next round of "lowering the ceiling" comes around.

Also why they keep saying ‘No more major combat changes’ and ‘We recognize that there is change fatigue,’ yet every three months like clockwork combat is tossed on it’s ear and players are scrambling to figure out new rotations and farming new gear that will likely become obsolete in the very near future.

Why are they saying one thing, but doing another? Is the vision really that transitory?

Sennecca

This "deep dive confuses" me. "Play how you want with build selection, champion points.." Every change in the last few updates has removed build selection making a certain combination of armor, skills weapon so overpowered and others so underpowered that EVERY Character I have is wearing 1) The Same armor sets because every other armor set and weight combination is so inferior and offers no benefit. 2)Has the same champion point set up 3) Uses the same weapons and mostly the same skills. Every other weapon so underperforms daggers that Mages who many envision as staff wielding, magic throwing classes are standing in bosses faces slashing them with daggers.
".... transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor." Theorycrafting used to be one of the things I found most fun in the game. When every other set combination so underperforms 2 or 3 other sets, there is no diversity or ability to choose a playstyle.

NextTuesday

Let's break this down and start with the influx of new players.

Congratulations, you've sold new copies. What kind of feedback do the new players have about this game? I'm in guilds and Discord servers across social, trading, and raiding from entry level training to trifecta progs. The most common question, regardless of topic, is "how do I...?" with some "what is...?". Your veteran players are leaving in droves after years of getting flipped off and you don't educate your new players. How many of these new players are going to remain a year from now? We've seen new players quitting already because it's too much. You are going to haemorrhage both new and veteran players regardless of skill level.

Besides answering FAQs, the guild community also teaches your new players how to play the game. Yes, even questing and overland. Often, the advice is contrary to what the game tells them. The game will say "follow your dreams, play how you want". New players come to us asking "why am I so bad at this game? I can't kill anything and I keep dying". On probing, they have skills purchased across all kinds of skill lines that do nothing to synergise in combat, missing gear from slots, broken gear, no buff food or drink, they're trying to solo Craglorn because they don't know what it is. Essentially, they have no idea how to play this game because the game does not teach them functional game play and there are no resources for it other than on the internet. Unsurprisingly, they say "I don't want to do homework".

Combat aside, we get "I'm so overwhelmed by all these zones and quests and what are antiquities and how does PvP work and do I have to do xyz thing". There is way, way too much grind and questing after this many consecutive years of new content, skill lines, etc. Years back it wasn't as big a deal. Now it is off-putting and new players are annoyed at having spent money on this game, even discounted, to give up within the first month. So there's your new players. Overwhelmed and unsupported except for the guilds their social anxiety allows them to apply for. We won't talk about hashtag ESO fam propaganda teams and streamers here. They often receive some form of recompense for their labour, guilds and their members mostly don't.

So what of the veteran players? Even the relatively casual ones? We like to raid prog, do dungeons, solo around overland, play Tales of Tribute, commit random acts of kindness towards lowbies, maybe tool around in fountains or see what we can climb. How much energy and time does ZOS deem acceptable for us to educate and guide its new players? Dungeon queues, whether randoms or pledges, normal or veteran, pretty much require 4 DPS with self heals and shields because PUGs don't know how to play their role any more. I have done up to 90% DPS on my CP1600 DK sacrificing slots to self heal and shield while frantically avoiding bosses because the "tank" has no taunt. I'm frustrated but I deal. I have reported toxic people for using group chat to abuse people for poor performance like this. So unless, again, a guild has a pool of dungeon ready players with verifiable skills it's useless trying to PUG dungeons or even trials for that matter unless you're prepared to be frustrated or abused.

Thanks for all the combat changes and absolute lack of functional combat training, ZOS. Everything I learned was taught by guilds and I had to unlearn everything ZOS taught me to be able to play with others. Personally I love my DK in Burning Spellweave, Elf Bane, and Grothdarr. It's a shame I can't even wear that janky meme build for fun any more after what you did to DoTs. I've resigned myself to farming Pillar, Rele, Whorl, and whatever the other one is if I want to play group content. My DK is stuck on Zenkosh and my necro is stuck in EC jail. I'm not allowed to bring my sorc or warden. There are too many nightblades.

You keep "lowering the ceiling" and "lifting the floor" and "hybridising" and whatever other counter-intuitive to you core goals measures you take. It consistently boils down to nerfing over-achievers while the playability of your game suffers, the player base has to keep making inordinate amounts of effort just to learn and navigate the game (and compensate for bugs), and the entire time we get pats on the head and mocked on live stream for raising specific, legitimate concerns.

You are killing your game and player base. You need to spend more time listening to knowledgeable people like guild leaders and addon authors that aren't shills. Code, QCell, heck even ESO University have a wealth of experience and functional knowledge about what you have done and are doing to your game. Addon authors compensate for ZOS' shortcomings a lot, and they've even brought us block bug workarounds. Project Vitality was an incredible thing helping everyone who wanted to play group content get started regardless of skill level with the support they need. Update 35 killed it and update 36 killed the enthusiasm of most remaining raid leaders.

My social guild is hand holding overwhelmed new players in figuring out what is going on while struggling to fill signups for group content without having to train people every single time. Attendance for any overland activity is sketchy because people are sick of the grind required for every single character to be viably playable. Once we do quests on our main we do not care about them on our alts because there are to many. We barely care about them on our mains now because we are exhausted after the amount of hours required to get through them all even skipping dislougue which is apparently hurtful to the dev team who built it.

My raid groups are struggling for signups. It's nice to see there are still raid leads committed to keeping raids alive, especially at the trifecta prog level. It sucks that the pool of eligible players has been reduced to a puddle because after this much lip service for this many years people are not just abandoning their accounts, they are deleting them. Hours and dollars spent deleted because they will never play this game again. The way things are going there will be very few competent leads to train your new players and they will be unable to figure it out on their own because you do not teach them. Your trials and dungeons with their fancy new (forced) "keep it moving" mechanics will be empty after repeated wipes on the first boss because the group lacks the knowledge or skill to clear even on normal, even in base game and Crags.

Finally, the trade economy has had a paradigm shift. Relatively few people are engaging in let alone clearing endgame content any more. Plenty have quit altogether. Who is providing the endgame items and rare materials for sale? Certainly there are far fewer PvP-sourced items on the market. I'm honestly surprised anyone is PvPing any more with the block bugs disproportionately affecting them in their already badly maintained environments. The market currently centres around DLC dungeon and trial motifs as well as PvP-sourced gear, and the people selling them often manipulate the market because they are the only person listing them so they can set their own price. Whatever, it's just fashion scrolls and PvP which nobody cares about /s.

There are fewer farmers and they are farming less because, again, grind grind grind. Jacked prices for rare materials due to scarcity lock out new players who need to farm and grind for their endgame gear. Want to do trials? Gold out these specific sets. How? Farm either materials or gold to buy them. Forget chromium plating. Dreugh wax is a problem because both light and medium armour require it and that's what all DPS wear, 8 per raid team. The frequency with which players have had to regear with all these fundamental combat changes has made it so difficult to keep up with in terms of materials that people are giving up. Who on earth wants to grind and farm this much, even in an MMORPG, for the reward of getting nerfed or forced to do mechanics when they just want to clear for a gear farm?

The meta exists because ZOS keeps messing with things and we just want to play. Classes have 1 option per role with maybe a couple of variables after hybridisation, so thanks for that. Previously I loved my flame meme magDK but now I'm stuck on Zenkosh hybrid or the 1 other DK hybrid build if I want to raid. I am bored between DoT casts and frustrated when the target moves out of my AoEs. I've quit most of the casual runs I was on. When the player base heaved over to new casuals and we lost most of our competent casuals I couldn't even get a non HM vRG clear after 5 weeks with the same team because they don't know how to play and don't seem to be able to follow that many instructions at once while they learn. Your frequent, drastic combat changes have set the player skill base back years.

And all we get is this "deep dive" that basically tells us "stop asking questions, we do what we want and what we want is money". Give us a reason not to quit beyond teabagging us with a cosmetic guar, especially after the legitimate insults we received from your employee and his wife. As a disabled person I am disgusted that he still has a job and still is allowed to continue insulting us on twitter. If I could afford to eat the cost of quitting partway through my plus sub I would. It's not like you're going to roll over and give me a pro rated refund.

Enough with the new and the change and the appealing to a broader base and the punishing overachievers. We want to be able to play unimpeded at all, let alone "the way we want". How about the next chapter being a fixed game instead of more new, frustrating, bugged content?

I expect this to be deleted or snipped or whatever considering how hard we've been getting modded recently. There's no ToS violation here, and these sentiments are widely expressed. In moderating me my contribution has been acknowledged and I'll have my own record of it in screenshots even if I'm banned, which also wouldn't surprise me. We have had enough, @ZOS_GinaBruno.

Dracane

It is important to have a vision and reliable values for your players to expect, but only chasing the combat and class balance approach you yourself deem good as opposed to what the fans find good, you end up with a game that may be enjoyable for yourself, but not for everyone else.

I think most MMO’s that are successful realise at some point that they need to do what the players want, not what the developers want. Afterall, you do not make this game to be played by yourself and close friends, but by thousands of people, who are also the ones paying to keep the servers running. So it can be good to take a step back and put your own ideals past that of the player's, no matter how hard that may be.

Thus, a slight shift in perspective would be recommended. ESO has done what the devs deemed better for so many years now and I think the majority of people would agree that the combat has in fact not become better, but too simplified and watered down. If you only push through your principles without cease, you ultimately end up with a dead game.

Faulgor

Well, here are my 2 drakes...

Many people have commented that hybridization actually homogenized builds, but that wasn't my experience. Admittedly I don't do trials anymore, my endgame are solo arenas and dungeons, but hybridization has vastly increased the options in abilities and sets my characters can use viably to let me play the way I want.

IMHO, the issues that lead to more homogenization weren't caused by hybrids, but merely highlighted by them. Overpowered sets and lackluster diversity in necessary group composition have been an issue at least since Morrowind. I stopped doing trials back then when Sunderflame was changed so radically, setting the path for homogenzation in the effects different builds can bring to the table.

The issue is that, while you allow build diversity in princple, in effect they all have to perform and play exactly the same because you don't want to lock people out of encounters. That means that specific builds can't be better or worse than any other, which means the only difference between builds is their DPS score, always favoring one specific setup as the meta. Hybridization is immaterial to that problem, because we have been through several updates before where only one class or build type (stam vs mag) was the meta in endgame content.

If you want to take a page out of the Elder Scrolls book, why don't enemies have specific elemental weaknesses, for instance? Weaknesses or resistances against certain weapon types, DoTs vs direct damage? Building for frost, bleed or bow damage could be a valuable asset to your group for specific encounters, but as far as I know, those are not considerations for endgame content.

But no matter how many options you add, the actual gameplay, what you would call mastery, is still the same for every build - keep up DOTs, spammable, light attack weaving. The only alternative are niche heavy attack builds, which have been through continuous nerf and buff cycles and can't be considered more than afterthoughts. Heck, we used to have melee heavy attack builds, nowadays heavy attack is synonymous with lightning staff.

In the few instances where some restrictions on build performance do apply, they are mostly centered around classes and other roles like tanking. Which runs counter to your own stated goals that every class should be able to fill every role.

In the end, all of the design principles and goals you have listed are commendable. The issue is that no only are they in part not reached, they are at odds with each other. You do have a considerable task ahead of you if you want to square that circle, but I think it can be done.

a) Sharpen class identity across roles. Yes, every class should be able to fill every role, but how does a Sorcerer Tank differ from a Nightblade Tank, and how can you ensure a Sorcerer Tank and Sorcerer Healer still both feel like Sorcerers? IMO this would be easiest to accomplish by focusing around certain mechanics or status effects for every class, e.g. DKs would benefit from setting enemies on fire no matter their role.

b) Finish hybridization. You promised to do this a year ago, but this really needs to happen soon to set ESO on a better basis.

c) Continue to balance builds. Especially in the realm of gear sets, the difference is wild, and because of hybridization, these issues are highlighted to everyone's annoyance. For abilitites, after Update 35, DoTs aren't in a good spot imo.

d) Increase combat gameplay variety. Mastering light attack weaving can be fun, and I'd rather other forms of gameplay to be encouraging rather than light attack weaving be discouraged. More weapons should be viable for heavy attack builds. For the lower end of players, new playstyles centered around continuous light attacks could be established. You said cast times are the exception, but is there no space for dedicated casters in your active combat?

e) Increase encounter variety. This is probably the most difficult, labor intensive and controversial, but I really feel it's important to consider. Without making different builds effective in different encounters, build diversity just means there is a more diverse underclass below the DPS meta overlord.

Not sure all of my rambling was on point, but then, the post was pretty broad and vague, too.

Brrrofski

This honestly gives no new information to anyone who's been playing for a few months.

Is this for current players, or an advert for new ones?

Because as a 6-year long player, this post told me nothing.

It's more of a "what we want" rather than "why we've done".

Sarannah

First of all, thank you for your post, but to me there are a few concerns:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

So, what is our vision for combat in ESO? In a nutshell, we want combat to feel fun and rewarding to all players. We have a wide variety of players with unique interests and motivations for playing, so we recognize that what feels “fun and rewarding” is a little different for everyone. Our goal is to strike a good balance, and just like our community has evolved over time, so has the need to address things that didn’t align with our combat core values. It’s also worth noting that these core values are aspirational, not hard rules or a definition of the current reality; they are the values to which we aspire with combat design and what we strive to meet when considering adjustments to combat in ESO.

Fun and rewarding to all players, does this mean the skillgap is going to be closed? Because 10k or 100k dps with the same builds/gear is not fun and rewarding. Both for that player, and those they are grouped with.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.

• Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armor
• Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
• "Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.

To me this reads: We are not going to enforce roles in the dungeonfinder, no matter how many players are now having horrible experiences due to speedrunners and fake roles. Though I agree with what is said, there needs to be a line, especially if you still want players to play in groups together. Because the longer this 'freedom and flexibility' goes on in groupplay, the more players ESO will lose. For solo this is good, for groupplay there needs to be a line players cannot cross. These core combat values clash with the basics of an MMO, to stop players from abusing other players.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.

• Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
• Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
• Optimizing ability rotations and timing
• Light attack weaving
• Group “builds” and synergies

I get that you want combat to be engaging, and that there needs to be room to grow. But right now most of this list(bolded) excludes many players from quite some of the game's content, as this list assumes everyone is top tier or will be top tier one day. Not even taking into question if they even want to be top tier. Some of this list(and barswapping) excludes a very very large group of players from playing higher content. Shouldn't the goal be to get more players playing(including in higher content), instead of chasing most away, and having few left playing. Currently many do not see this engaging/challenging combat as "let's do this!", but rather as "screw that, I'm going to try another game!". It looks like a mountain to climb, but only very few actually want to make that climb. It is a game afer all.
In my opinion, the game should provide these mastery mechanics(and barswapping) until a player has mastered them. Once they have mastered these mechanics, they should automatically take over control of them. Basically raising the floor, or as I have called it in other threads "crutch mechanics": Auto barswap, more skilldamage when not light attack weaving, automatic resource management, etc. These won't affect the top tier player, but will let inexperienced players and bad players(like me) have a much higher floor. And once they master one or more of these mechanics, they can choose to perform them manually, as that will/should always provide a better result.
PS: Ultimate should automatically regen like all the other resources, one ultimate per second.

In general: Totally love the game, but this post has me worried about quite a few things. I already know I will never be a top tier player, as those days are behind me. So to me this post reads like I should stop playing now, because there is nothing to hold on to for the future. I'm not leaving or anything, as I love the game, but some parts of this post make me feel like I should.