The Elder Scrolls Online

Maintenance for the week of May 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 29

ESO Developer Deep Dive - Core Combat Values

Leave a Reply
  • James-Wayne
    James-Wayne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭
    So, you're saying we are getting rid of the individual classes and going with a full tier tree class-based system where we can select what we want.... HELL YES, ITS ABOUT TIME!
    PERTH, AUSTRALIA | PC | NAMain CharactersJames-Wayne | Orc | Templar, Arox-The'Destroyer | 'Nord | Dragonknight, Lili’an-Stormcloak | High Elf | Sorcerer, Purr'fect | Khajiit | Nightblade, Lily'Frostfang | Breton | Warden, Lilith-Zengo | Dark Elf | Nightblade, Sees-Life-N'Death | Argonian | NecromancerSupport CharactersZanthia-Dragon'Fire | High Elf | Dragonknight, Hodor-Stoneheart | Nord | Templar, Heals-All-Hearts | Argonian | Templar, Zohan-Beastmaster | Wood Elf | Sorcerer, Swamp-Bog'Stuga | Orc | Necromancer, Simon-Snow'Wolfbear | Nord | Warden, Shadows-of-Blood'N'Stone | Argonian | Nightblade
  • blue_peaceful_Manticore
    blue_peaceful_Manticore
    ✭✭✭✭
    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    "...
    • "..."
    • Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
    • "..."
    ..."

    What that mean exactly?
    I can use two-handed skills with staff as weapon?
    I can use Staff skills with Sword +Shield?!
  • NextTuesday
    NextTuesday
    ✭✭✭
    EnKor wrote: »

    What that mean exactly?
    I can use two-handed skills with staff as weapon?
    I can use Staff skills with Sword +Shield?!

    Mend Wounds is only viable as a meme to throw sticky globs at people which is fun if you can stomach grinding the psijic quest line to unlock the skills.
    Edited by NextTuesday on December 21, 2022 10:10AM
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Thanks for the communication and words, give credit where it is due, and I do appreciate it.

    Doesn’t really answer any question regarding update 35 or lack of finishing such things such as hybridization of potions or enchantments.  Or even mention how all the different timers is a mess to keep with across skills and classes. It appears many issues are either half-finished or abandon before completion.

    Nice to hear the words we need better communication, but it sounds hallow after all these years. Please keep up the communication and make it a New Year's resolutions to engage and communicate more with your player base. We are hungry for it. Just don’t make it a one-way street. Sure, we as players don’t always know what’s best or have behind scenes' info, but we are a passionate group and do spend a lot of time playing the game and do have some insight and good ideas from time to time.

    See a lot of talk about how in the hardest of hard content that people are concerned that only certain classes, gear and skills can be used to clear said content. Personally, don’t see this as a huge problem overall as long as ZOS does not balance the entire game around it. After all this probably only accounts for a small percentage of the overall player base. But it does go against the “Play the Way You Want” mantra and should be considered and looked at. We just all need to recognize that this is a hard balance to obtain.

    Another issue I think fits here. Have seen/heard about how you did talk with streamers about their concerns and the concerns of their community. Guess this is part damage control, it appears you have taken a pretty big hit lately in the PR department. Sort of reminds me of the class rep thing.

    Get wanting to do damage control, but just wanted to remind you that the forums would be a great place to also engage your community if you really wanted to. It doesn’t have to be all straight discussion; you could take polls or ask about specific ideas. Understand all feedback Is not wanted and trolls exist but believe some good can come out of it. If you did decide to engage your community more, maybe push out a poll in game or reference the current issue being asked about in game news section to come to the forums. Just watch the heavy handiness you have shown recently on the forums.  

    After thought,
    See several talking about light attack weaving. For me, I only try to perform it during group/challenging content. Know that this makes me less efficient when I do need to perform light attack weaving but as someone over 50 either do it this way or I can’t play the game much at all without physical pain. Recommend finger/hand stretching exercise for a minute or two before you began playing any extend sessions and downtime breaks such as questing, writs or farming between harder content.

    One thing that has always bothered me is ZOS keeps introducing sets that require mastering light attack weaving to achieve maximum DPS. Knowing full well that some people are going to try and use these sets to gain the best DPS possible when in reality they are not really meant for general questing and content and does help with the high ceiling/low floor issue. Not to mention the physical issue it causes some people. For me I don’t generally use such sets knowing I take a DPS hit for it, but I play for fun and enjoyment and not physical pain.

    Stay safe :)
  • Xarc
    Xarc
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

    Elder Scrolls Inspired
    The Elder Scrolls has captured the hearts and minds of millions of players over decades, and we strive to honor series traditions. An online multiplayer world presents some unique challenges, constraints and opportunities, but fans of the series should feel a sense of familiarity within our character and combat experience. The lore and mechanics from previous games should serve as an inspiration and, when possible, a foundation for ESO combat.
    • Health, Magicka, and Stamina as attributes
    • Class selection does not define or constrain role
    • Skill lines are discovered, and leveled up by using them
    • Many skill lines are staples from previous TES games (ex: Werewolf, Heavy Armor, Mages Guild, etc.)

    Hi.
    The fact there's some different classes comes in contradiction with all TES games where you can BECOME the class you want though your gameplay and archetype you've built. ESO is built as a MMO and doesnt follow the TES core system;

    For exemple in TESV you can be a stealth mage assassin necromancer when in ESO you have to choose between sorc/nb/necro.

    SO it's still funny when you say "play as you want".
    Edited by Xarc on December 21, 2022 10:57AM
    @xarcs FR-EU-PC
    "La valeur de la vie, c'est un mort qui te la donnera."since april2014 - -CP2290 (may2023) - -/Xarcus - DK - alliance rank 50/Elnaa - NB -alliance rank 50/Xarc - Necro - alliance rank 48/Isilenil - NB - alliance rank 37/Felisja - NB - alliance rank 38/+12 chars
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    EnKor wrote: »
    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    "...
    • "..."
    • Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
    • "..."
    ..."

    What that mean exactly?
    I can use two-handed skills with staff as weapon?
    I can use Staff skills with Sword +Shield?!

    My read of that line was that skills are not conditional and skill lines do not block each other, so they can be mixed and matched. Obviously, not intended where weapons are involved.
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xarc wrote: »
    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

    Elder Scrolls Inspired
    The Elder Scrolls has captured the hearts and minds of millions of players over decades, and we strive to honor series traditions. An online multiplayer world presents some unique challenges, constraints and opportunities, but fans of the series should feel a sense of familiarity within our character and combat experience. The lore and mechanics from previous games should serve as an inspiration and, when possible, a foundation for ESO combat.
    • Health, Magicka, and Stamina as attributes
    • Class selection does not define or constrain role
    • Skill lines are discovered, and leveled up by using them
    • Many skill lines are staples from previous TES games (ex: Werewolf, Heavy Armor, Mages Guild, etc.)

    Hi.
    The fact there's some different classes comes in contradiction with all TES games where you can BECOME the class you want though your gameplay and archetype you've built. ESO is built as a MMO and doesnt follow the TES core system;

    For exemple in TESV you can be a stealth mage assassin necromancer when in ESO you have to choose between sorc/nb/necro.

    SO it's still funny when you say "play as you want".

    Older TES games do have classes that determine your major/minor skills, in addition to the "make your own class' option.

    Now, the TES games have moved on from, say, Morrowind where your early game skills very much determined how effective you were going to be. Trying to go against your class set you up for a bad time. By Skyrim, the world is your oyster and how you play determines what you're skilled with, not the other way around.

    ESO is much more like the earlier games and much less like Skyrim.
  • Hesperax79
    Hesperax79
    ✭✭✭
    bachpain wrote: »
    Hybridization was the death of ESO. Every class uses the same 3 or 4 armor sets and weapon/guild skills with maybe one or two class skills.

    Fully agree. I often move the full gearset from one of my char to another and I only changes 1 or 2 skill.
    If the game use class system, the class must be uniqe. If they will unify everything why you are not able to pick - up all the skill - line with your char? And then all the balance problem was solved.

    With class the good balance means that the difference between the best and worst class are somewhere 4~5% in terms of DPS f.e.


  • sarahthes
    sarahthes
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sarannah wrote: »
    First of all, thank you for your post, but to me there are a few concerns:
    ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    Mastery
    Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.
    • Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
    • Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
    • Optimizing ability rotations and timing
    • Light attack weaving
    • Group “builds” and synergies
    I get that you want combat to be engaging, and that there needs to be room to grow. But right now most of this list(bolded) excludes many players from quite some of the game's content, as this list assumes everyone is top tier or will be top tier one day. Not even taking into question if they even want to be top tier. Some of this list(and barswapping) excludes a very very large group of players from playing higher content. Shouldn't the goal be to get more players playing(including in higher content), instead of chasing most away, and having few left playing. Currently many do not see this engaging/challenging combat as "let's do this!", but rather as "screw that, I'm going to try another game!". It looks like a mountain to climb, but only very few actually want to make that climb. It is a game afer all.
    In my opinion, the game should provide these mastery mechanics(and barswapping) until a player has mastered them. Once they have mastered these mechanics, they should automatically take over control of them. Basically raising the floor, or as I have called it in other threads "crutch mechanics": Auto barswap, more skilldamage when not light attack weaving, automatic resource management, etc. These won't affect the top tier player, but will let inexperienced players and bad players(like me) have a much higher floor. And once they master one or more of these mechanics, they can choose to perform them manually, as that will/should always provide a better result.
    PS: Ultimate should automatically regen like all the other resources, one ultimate per second.

    I think there is a very strong misconception that you need to be perfect first before attempting content.

    It's not true. You don't need to be perfect and the current DPS "minimums" that I see raid guilds requiring are absolutely incorrect and too high for most content.

    The items you highlighted:

    [*] Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
    [*] Optimizing ability rotations and timing
    [*] Light attack weaving

    You should continuously work on these, but you can clear all vet dungeons and vet trials without having any of this optimized if you're strong on mechanics. It will get easier as your damage increases (which will happen as you improve) but you can complete it much earlier than that. You honestly don't need to worry about that stuff until you get to HM and trifectas level. Anyone who says otherwise just wants to feel superior.

    And if you think you should be able to clear all HMs and trifectas without working on your skill and ability at the game then I don't know what to tell you.
  • Maythor
    Maythor
    ✭✭✭✭
    I went way off topic so am editing, but the jist of what I was saying is that i don't think trial guilds ask for specific and possibly too high dps just for the sake of being superior .. things just go better with more experienced players so why make life more difficult? While many of us are commited in guilds to helping people learn, not all have to do that either.

    If you are new or less capable then join a beginner group and use the stepping stones through the various content that a great many guilds have in place until you reach the point you are happy with or capable of getting to. Which I'll admit is more difficult now with a shrinking raiding population!

    I suppose the million dollar question is how to retain people's interest and attention as they do this?
    Edited by Maythor on December 21, 2022 4:11PM
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Faulgor wrote: »
    Well, here are my 2 drakes...

    Many people have commented that hybridization actually homogenized builds, but that wasn't my experience. Admittedly I don't do trials anymore, my endgame are solo arenas and dungeons, but hybridization has vastly increased the options in abilities and sets my characters can use viably to let me play the way I want.

    You will see billboards for Hybridization and Play As You Want on the road to Homogenization. Here, the road to Homogenization is the easy path to Hybridization and Play As You Want. ZOS can obviously get off that road at any time, with the subsequent negative comments about failed promises, etc, that will come with it. However, words that ZOS has said suggest there is more homogenization coming. They are doing this in little bites until they get to the level they want.

    I don't think that they will go all the way, but it is important to remember that another billboard on this road is Easier Dev Maintenance and this becomes very important as the game ages and the studio gets distracted with other projects. The last thing the studio wants is an elderly high maintenance MMO out there, and my impression of ESO is that it will become exactly that.

    It is also important to note that "homogeneous" is not a player decision. It is not an outcome of min/maxing. It does not mean that players all decide use the same build, same skills, same sets. It does not mean that players have to use a particular build to be accepted in certain circles. Homogeneous means that you cannot build a different build because all of the skills, sets, and attributes are the same, or nearly so. The ultimate end of the Road to Homogeneous is that skills, gear, and characters are different only cosmetically. ZOS isn't going to go that far (cross fingers), but this is the road they are on, and they have made significant progress down that path with hybridization of Stamina and Magicka attributes.

    This all comes from a "Play As You Want" focus and the fact that ESO is leaning towards making it so that no player can make a mistake when doing a build. The character may not be as powerful as another build, but that is not a mistake, meaning it is not viable, it is just a poor decision that still retains some viability. If ZOS can eliminate both mistakes and poor decisions, build diversity goes through the roof, while simultaneously making all the builds much more similar. That is the Road to Homogenization.

    Now, Wheeler did not call out a core combat value to eliminate build mistakes, but that is something they have previously said and my assumption is that this goes without saying. It is part of "fun and rewarding" and "play as you want", so it is a base assumption that rests above this list.
    Faulgor wrote: »

    a) Sharpen class identity across roles. Yes, every class should be able to fill every role, but how does a Sorcerer Tank differ from a Nightblade Tank, and how can you ensure a Sorcerer Tank and Sorcerer Healer still both feel like Sorcerers?

    b) Finish hybridization. You promised to do this a year ago, but this really needs to happen soon to set ESO on a better basis.

    c) Continue to balance builds. Especially in the realm of gear sets, the difference is wild, and because of hybridization, these issues are highlighted to everyone's annoyance. For abilitites, after Update 35, DoTs aren't in a good spot imo.

    d) Increase combat gameplay variety. Mastering light attack weaving can be fun, and I'd rather other forms of gameplay to be encouraging rather than light attack weaving be discouraged. More weapons should be viable for heavy attack builds. For the lower end of players, new playstyles centered around continuous light attacks could be established. You said cast times are the exception, but is there no space for dedicated casters in your active combat?

    e) Increase encounter variety. This is probably the most difficult, labor intensive and controversial, but I really feel it's important to consider. Without making different builds effective in different encounters, build diversity just means there is a more diverse underclass below the DPS meta overlord.

    Just some comments, although (d) and (e) are pretty solid.

    Items (a) and (b) sort of work against each other, if done wrong. Hybridization of attributes will blur and homogenize the class identity within the same class. ESO essentially has 12 classes, because we have split them between Magicka and Stamina, so if class identity includes that split, (b) will weaken it. Now, I am not saying that this split is a good thing, and it is obviously something that was not intended, but they are sort of stuck either fixing it where the attributes matter, or fixing it where the attributes don't matter. I personally wish they had gone with the other one, but the way they went eliminates mistakes in builds.

    Item (c) is not really possible until homogenization is complete. One build will always be better than another as long as one race/class/weapon/set can do something that another race/class/weapon/set cannot do. If they make it so that DPS is the same, then they will differ in some other manner that will become important instead of DPS. DoT duration, area of effect, CC. or something else. The only way to balance buiilds, and make it so some player cannot work out something favoring one build over another, is homogenization.

    I would be remiss if I did not mention that once ZOS finishes going down the Road to Homogenization (aka Hybridization and Play As You Want), the next hurdle that they have to decide about is Mastery. It does not matter whether they go down the road all the way or not, each step makes mastery more important. The more the builds are the same, the more the outcome depends on mastery. This will be particularly important in Cyrodiil and the PVP venues, but what will drive ZOS to consider change is how mastery impacts the ability to achieve PVE goals. This is a direct measurement about how "hard" the game is, and if ESO is viewed as "too hard", that will block some new players, which ultimately blocks some revenue.

    The tricky thing about mastery is that each player has their own maximum level of incompetence that is different from other players, and nothing they can do will ever surmount that. Worse than that, as each player ages, their maximum level of incompetence goes down, and there is nothing they can do about that, either. The player can only master the game to that maximum level. The game devs obviously need to make sure that the mastery level is low enough that most, close to all, players can achieve it. If the game offers content above that level, content becomes inaccessible to some players, but if they have the level too low, the more capable players will complain about the game being too easy, boring, mind numbing, or whatever.



    Edited by Elsonso on December 21, 2022 3:43PM
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • maximusrex45
    maximusrex45
    ✭✭✭✭
    The goals are laudable, but ZOS isn't doing well in meeting them in my estimation.

    You want to support weaving and have minimal cast time abilities, but the base UI is terrible for helping players learn, manage, and master this. You have no cast bar and no global cool down indicators, this makes learning and keeping combat rhythm much more difficult than it needs to be.

    You mention being able to play how you want to play which I support wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, your implementation is lacking. If I want to be a ranged caster or an archer, yes there is some support for that, but so much of the game penalizes staying at range that these are really not viable playstyles outside of basic combat. This holds true for a lot of potential themed setups. If I have a Sorc and really want to focus on being a Storm Caster or a Shadow Caster, sure I can do that, at a detriment to my greater potential and will little to know set support.

    There should be a skill/mastery component to doing the hardest content for sure, but the point that is being glossed over is that playing how you want to play is not compatible with mastery as everything is currently balanced. If you want to be a tank for the hardest content in the game, your ability to do that is already decided before your character class is even chosen. That is incredibly frustrating.

    I really like the skill system, but I also think partly ow it is implemented is hurting the ability to balance out the game. It would probably never happen at this point, but I think a skill system where class abilities are your active abilities, and that non-class skills are modifiers you can add to the class abilities would be awesome in being able to build fund and effective builds within a theme. An example would be a player who want to tank would open up the Sword and Sheild line, and then they would add Provoke as a modifier to one of their class abilities, and then when they use that ability on a target it also taunts the target. This could be a great way to add buffs/debuffs to other interesting skills so we aren't all using Caltrops or Barbed Trap. It could also be a way to add some visual interest as well, If you are a Vampire and you use an ability that charges to a target, you turn into a bat swarm as part of the animation.

    The game also suffers from a lot of mediocre sets but few sets that benefit and synergize with certain class skill lines. It would be awesome to have a system where we use a Monster Set, a General Set, and a Class Set of gear to build off of that could synergize with your class and skills better.

    I don't think any of these problems can't be overcome, but the ZOS posts in this thread make me wonder how willing ZOS is to do so.
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Elsonso wrote: »
    This all comes from a "Play As You Want" focus and the fact that ESO is leaning towards making it so that no player can make a mistake when doing a build. The character may not be as powerful as another build, but that is not a mistake, meaning it is not viable, it is just a poor decision that still retains some viability. If ZOS can eliminate both mistakes and poor decisions, build diversity goes through the roof, while simultaneously making all the builds much more similar. That is the Road to Homogenization.

    Yeah, that's precisely my issue with all this. Adding choice is all well and good if it actually is a choice, but if all choices lead to the same outcome it's just busywork for developers and no actual gain for the player.
    It's the Play What You Want equivalent of Eat What You Want, but all that is offered are different kinds of cereal.
    Breakfast forever.

    And it's a fair assumption that this approach is and always has been part of their goal to improve accessibility, at least in overland and questing content which they have repeatedly nerfed after release. This homogenization started all the way when unique buffs were removed in favor of the Minor/Major system.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Kalro
    Kalro
    ✭✭
    Play The Way You Want
    This is definitely my favorite part and I like the deck building influence. Keep going and looking forward to what's next. I would love to see some additional classes and weapon skills, I feel it's long overdue!

    Active Combat
    My biggest concern as an aging player is that as of right now, the combat is very spammy. I understand that the design now is to really focus on the action, but this also leaves players like myself being burned a bit. It's a bit unrealistic to smash my mouse and keyboard with 20 actions within what, 3 seconds? In the games current state, it feels like Starcraft circa what 1998? Anyone's that played that knows you went through a mouse every other month due to the non-stop clicking.

    I would like to see some sort of compromise here. How about a setting for those that aren't able to light/heavy weave? How about something that rewards thinking instead of whos the faster nina?

    Mastery
    Okay, but see above response. Again would love to see new classes, new skill lines, new weapon lines. We are looking at an 8 year old game now, time to add some diversity!

    Elder Scrolls Inspired
    Yes please, we have Oblivion & Skyrim alone (the latest) two TES games that have so much inspiration from locations, politics, world building, and even abilities. I'm personally drooling over the thought of something like Conjuration.

  • anvilbert
    anvilbert
    ✭✭✭
    Pug groups have gotten really bad. High cp levels who have no clue as to mechanics or how to play their characters, you point out or advise get kicked or ignored , IN RANDOM NORMALS never mind vet. How is this raising the floor? Those new players dont want to learn and refuse to listen to veteran players. Your tactics and constant changes have brought about this play style. The mentors are leaving in droves because of the constant yo yo changes that ZOS keeps saying is for the better of the game. Your deep dive doesn't address any of the REAL ISSUES CONCERNING THE GAME.
Sign In or Register to comment.