ESO Developer Deep Dive - Core Combat Values

Ashryn

Play the way I want?

After what you have done to my Wood Elf stamina warden who uses a bow over the years? That is a bitter tasting bit of meat right there!

Sarannah

sarahthes wrote: »

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Sarannah wrote: »

First of all, thank you for your post, but to me there are a few concerns:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.

• Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
• Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
• Optimizing ability rotations and timing
• Light attack weaving
• Group “builds” and synergies

I get that you want combat to be engaging, and that there needs to be room to grow. But right now most of this list(bolded) excludes many players from quite some of the game's content, as this list assumes everyone is top tier or will be top tier one day. Not even taking into question if they even want to be top tier. Some of this list(and barswapping) excludes a very very large group of players from playing higher content. Shouldn't the goal be to get more players playing(including in higher content), instead of chasing most away, and having few left playing. Currently many do not see this engaging/challenging combat as "let's do this!", but rather as "screw that, I'm going to try another game!". It looks like a mountain to climb, but only very few actually want to make that climb. It is a game afer all.
In my opinion, the game should provide these mastery mechanics(and barswapping) until a player has mastered them. Once they have mastered these mechanics, they should automatically take over control of them. Basically raising the floor, or as I have called it in other threads "crutch mechanics": Auto barswap, more skilldamage when not light attack weaving, automatic resource management, etc. These won't affect the top tier player, but will let inexperienced players and bad players(like me) have a much higher floor. And once they master one or more of these mechanics, they can choose to perform them manually, as that will/should always provide a better result.
PS: Ultimate should automatically regen like all the other resources, one ultimate per second.

I think there is a very strong misconception that you need to be perfect first before attempting content.

It's not true. You don't need to be perfect and the current DPS "minimums" that I see raid guilds requiring are absolutely incorrect and too high for most content.

The items you highlighted:

[*] Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
[*] Optimizing ability rotations and timing
[*] Light attack weaving

You should continuously work on these, but you can clear all vet dungeons and vet trials without having any of this optimized if you're strong on mechanics. It will get easier as your damage increases (which will happen as you improve) but you can complete it much earlier than that. You honestly don't need to worry about that stuff until you get to HM and trifectas level. Anyone who says otherwise just wants to feel superior.

And if you think you should be able to clear all HMs and trifectas without working on your skill and ability at the game then I don't know what to tell you.

I think you read something in my post which isn't there. As I never said players would need to perfect their dps, but I do feel combat requires too much "work" to be any fun. It is just senseless buttonsmashing at this point, with all those different core combat mechanics combined(weaving, rotation, timing, resource management, barswapping, etc).

Personally I am never going to bother with any of the combat mechanics(weaving, rotation, barswapping, etc), as I feel it is too much work. And work is the last thing a game needs, in my opinion.

And you are right that vet/hm dungeons and trials do not require perfect or even high DPS, but the thing is, they do. Let me explain: At this moment there isn't a trialfinder available, meaning basically the only way to do (vet) trial content is through guilds. Guilds who set these crazy high requirements. So even though there isn't a requirement, technically there is a high minimum requirement because of (most) guilds. And for veteran/hm dungeons, if you do not have high enough DPS, you will get kicked. Combine that with players having unrealistically high expectations, and you have an endgame barely anyone runs. Or barely anyone can run/wants to run.

And yes, I do feel players should be able to clear vet/hm content without any "work". Hence the request for "crutch-mechanics". You can't seriously expect new players to stay with the game, if the first thing they hear is: "To play this game, you have to work on point a, b, c, and d, for many hours". This is an unreal expectation, as this will chase away almost any player. I love the game, and even I am not going to bother with any of that. Add to that the horrible group experiences with speedrunners plus fake roles, makes the choice for new players to stay with this game even smaller.

In my opinion, any player who wants to participate in any content, should be able to participate in that content. Atleast in PvE.

INM

Sarannah wrote: »

And you are right that vet/hm dungeons and trials do not require perfect or even high DPS, but the thing is, they do. Let me explain: At this moment there isn't a trialfinder available, meaning basically the only way to do (vet) trial content is through guilds. Guilds who set these crazy high requirements. So even though there isn't a requirement, technically there is a high minimum requirement because of (most) guilds. And for veteran/hm dungeons, if you do not have high enough DPS, you will get kicked. Combine that with players having unrealistically high expectations, and you have an endgame barely anyone runs. Or barely anyone can run/wants to run.

I wonder why people who complain about gatekeeping don't start their own group. Aren't there a lot of people who would join to a group like this? I would like to follow their proggress.

Destai

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

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ApoAlaia wrote: »

After U35 any mention of combat changes fills me with dread and foreboding.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, these values have been our guiding principles for years and are the things we will continue to be our goals moving forward. Nothing here is technically new, outside of simply sharing it with everyone.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Don't you think that something "new" would've been appropriate here? Something specific about the controversial changes we've all been riled up over. I'm not sure how stating your founding principles applies here because "new" changes in U35 onwards upset the community. U35 really broke a lot of our communities and we all want to know why specific decisions were made and what the final state of combat will approximately look like. Why is there no tie-back to those concerns that were brought up here in spades? It really feels like we're having two different conversations here.

propertyOfUndefined

What's kept me playing the game all these years has always been the "Play the way you want" design. As soon as I had reached max level, I learned about how gear sets could drastically alter your playstyle. There was a wealth of options to choose from and what seemed like endless possibilities! I joined my first level 50 battleground and saw meteors falling from the sky, player characters transforming into skeletons, shadowy daedric creatures chasing me around the battlefield, beams of fire melting my health away. It was amazing!

The months that followed were filled with research and learning. I was motivated to learn how to complete veteran dungeons to acquire sets like zaan, skoria, pirate skeleton, etc. I was motivated to learn to craft in order to get access to sets like torugs pact and mechanical acuity. I was motivated to explore the world to level up the psijic skill line. Even time away from the game went to thinking about build ideas and set combinations. I wondered if the effects of Torugs Pact would stack with the Infused weapon trait, and whether I could create a build that relied primarily on weapon glyphs for damage. How about building around "off balance" and that cool doylemish proc?

What worries me about the current state of combat is that things seem to have been dumbed down significantly for the sake of what many perceive as "balance". There are still a wealth of sets, but most of them have become next to worthless. Pirate Skeleton, for example, which was once a great (and fun!) set to create a build on top of, has been deleted from my bank. Major Protection was nerfed considerably and can easily be acquired from other sources without having to deal with a permanent minor defile. Mechanical Acuity is one of the sets I wanted to have crafting stations of in my home. It now pales in comparison to something like Order's Wrath, and isn't even worth considering.

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but if it's a choice between "imbalance" and having such limited options to "play the way I want" and see my "power fantasies" realized, then I choose imbalance. That's just my 2 cents.

moderatelyfatman

I can parse nearly 100k on a dragonknight (a class I barely know) or 80k on a stamWarden, my very first character that I have been playing for 3 years.
Is this what you intended, ZOS?

Dojohoda

This is more of an outline with nicely written notes.

colossalvoids

Sarannah wrote: »

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sarahthes wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

First of all, thank you for your post, but to me there are a few concerns:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.

• Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
• Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
• Optimizing ability rotations and timing
• Light attack weaving
• Group “builds” and synergies

I get that you want combat to be engaging, and that there needs to be room to grow. But right now most of this list(bolded) excludes many players from quite some of the game's content, as this list assumes everyone is top tier or will be top tier one day. Not even taking into question if they even want to be top tier. Some of this list(and barswapping) excludes a very very large group of players from playing higher content. Shouldn't the goal be to get more players playing(including in higher content), instead of chasing most away, and having few left playing. Currently many do not see this engaging/challenging combat as "let's do this!", but rather as "screw that, I'm going to try another game!". It looks like a mountain to climb, but only very few actually want to make that climb. It is a game afer all.
In my opinion, the game should provide these mastery mechanics(and barswapping) until a player has mastered them. Once they have mastered these mechanics, they should automatically take over control of them. Basically raising the floor, or as I have called it in other threads "crutch mechanics": Auto barswap, more skilldamage when not light attack weaving, automatic resource management, etc. These won't affect the top tier player, but will let inexperienced players and bad players(like me) have a much higher floor. And once they master one or more of these mechanics, they can choose to perform them manually, as that will/should always provide a better result.
PS: Ultimate should automatically regen like all the other resources, one ultimate per second.

I think there is a very strong misconception that you need to be perfect first before attempting content.

It's not true. You don't need to be perfect and the current DPS "minimums" that I see raid guilds requiring are absolutely incorrect and too high for most content.

The items you highlighted:

[*] Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
[*] Optimizing ability rotations and timing
[*] Light attack weaving

You should continuously work on these, but you can clear all vet dungeons and vet trials without having any of this optimized if you're strong on mechanics. It will get easier as your damage increases (which will happen as you improve) but you can complete it much earlier than that. You honestly don't need to worry about that stuff until you get to HM and trifectas level. Anyone who says otherwise just wants to feel superior.

And if you think you should be able to clear all HMs and trifectas without working on your skill and ability at the game then I don't know what to tell you.

I think you read something in my post which isn't there. As I never said players would need to perfect their dps, but I do feel combat requires too much "work" to be any fun. It is just senseless buttonsmashing at this point, with all those different core combat mechanics combined(weaving, rotation, timing, resource management, barswapping, etc).

Personally I am never going to bother with any of the combat mechanics(weaving, rotation, barswapping, etc), as I feel it is too much work. And work is the last thing a game needs, in my opinion.

And you are right that vet/hm dungeons and trials do not require perfect or even high DPS, but the thing is, they do. Let me explain: At this moment there isn't a trialfinder available, meaning basically the only way to do (vet) trial content is through guilds. Guilds who set these crazy high requirements. So even though there isn't a requirement, technically there is a high minimum requirement because of (most) guilds. And for veteran/hm dungeons, if you do not have high enough DPS, you will get kicked. Combine that with players having unrealistically high expectations, and you have an endgame barely anyone runs. Or barely anyone can run/wants to run.

And yes, I do feel players should be able to clear vet/hm content without any "work". Hence the request for "crutch-mechanics". You can't seriously expect new players to stay with the game, if the first thing they hear is: "To play this game, you have to work on point a, b, c, and d, for many hours". This is an unreal expectation, as this will chase away almost any player. I love the game, and even I am not going to bother with any of that. Add to that the horrible group experiences with speedrunners plus fake roles, makes the choice for new players to stay with this game even smaller.

In my opinion, any player who wants to participate in any content, should be able to participate in that content. Atleast in PvE.

Well, what would be "not too much work"? ("work" being loose term here, as it's as much work as timing your block right in Skyrim)

You can't realistically expect mechanics being done automatically for you as a solution, it's going against everything this post is talking about even. If the combat isn't fun it won't become any more fun for you with some automatic barswaps or else whatever that might mean even, as you should decide on an actual situation, should you swap or stay for a mechanic, phase in a fight or just because you're spamming shield without being automatically thrown away to another bar. Combat is based around decisions, not "senseless mashing" some people believe.

The guild part is the one where you can take the matter in your own hands, if you feel that every guild you saw yourself sets those high demands and expectations you can find same minded people and start one together, can be not a guild but a DC server even, that's not the most important part here. People tend to play with ones on the same page, so it would be pretty logical way out of problem you personally have if there's a demand.

About kicks and such you can't be kicked if you made a group yourself without throwing your expectations on another 3 random person. There's also no unrealistic expectations, just all kinds of people thrown together and trying to find a weaker link, I'd suggest avoiding random finder for learning purposes for own sanity trying to digest others behaviour and paint them in the light that suits your narrative.

To the last point it seems that zeni themselves disagree, as currently casual content ends on regular veteran difficulty and HM being an insane leap in difficulty catering to those 0.1% basically saying that veteran is the highest we want you to go, as hardmode is where the game starts for another group of payers. If they'll go out of their way and make vet HM digestible for "everyone" they'll need another difficulty setting again, which will lead to complaints about it being "unachievable" etc. making a circle no one wants to participate in.

Personally I think they might need to tune HMS down to some degree as their accessibility goal persists, not that I'm thrilled about it myself but mostly to avoid the "difficulty leap" for the sake of people progressing content and unable to make such a leap without relearning the game and optimising their friends out of groups.

NextTuesday

There are also plenty of raid leads doing meme runs this time of year. Naked/gearless, double pet sorc, etc. Not every raid lead has exclusionary requirements, and if you've found they do you're looking in the wrong places. There are multiple academy-style guilds who will train people how to do group content from whatever level they're currently at. They do this on a volunteer basis and it can be frustrating to have to tell people the same things over and over again because ZOS has filled their heads with "play how you want" when that's not how group content will ever work in any game.

If you want to do group content, you play as a team or you don't play. That means there will always be some kind of requirement, so the group as a whole can keep functioning. If you don't want to play like that then you don't want to play an MMORPG. Go play Skyrim. And if you don't want to put in the work to do vet HM, then don't. But don't kill the game for the people who do, because we like to invest our resources and feel accomplished in using our skills.

You already have normal difficulty for casual players to participate in group content. There is zero reason to bring vet HM down to easy mode when the whole point of it is to prog and get sweaty. Yes, there is some stuff that needs to be tuned better because it's off kilter. No, people don't need an autopilot to play hard stuff without putting in the effort.

I don't play shooters because I have slow reflexes and I don't like role playing carpet. I'm not about to tell a shooter game dev to cater the game to people like me so I can play. I'm going to take the L and play to my strengths. I role play carpet in MMORPGs until I learn mechanics enough to stay alive. Casual players are over catered to in ESO and it's become exhausting for everyone else.

We're not harming anyone by progging but we got nerfed because not everyone can do HM. The nerf has actually made it worse because vet and HM can't be cleared without learning mechanics and the new player pool refuses or is unable to do so, nor do they play as a team because they don't want to play the meta. The meta is the meta because if everyone is wearing optimised gear raid leads can turn to specific people and give them specific feedback on what they need to improve, as one example.

They have to do this with themselves and 11 other people. It is not a raid lead's job to train people unless they're running a training trial. So no, you don't get to sign up for hard content without clearing easier versions first and yes, you do have to wear the gear and squeeze out the parse. It is a measure of your skill and what you will contribute to the team. If you put that on autopilot the endgame will die completely and you'll be left with people running around failing to clear the first boss in nHRC or wiping the group to the poison in nSO.

That's where combat is headed while ZOS continues to over-cater to casual players. Overland and group content are 2 different play styles, as are PvP and PvE. They should be treated accordingly and much better respected by both the devs and the player base. Stay in a lane, don't make all of these things worse by forcing homogenisation. It's possible to make things accessible without blanket nerfing and killing the game for the majority of the people who have been playing for years, even since launch, and I say this as a disabled player since launch. I'm sick of the paternalistic attitude from ZOS and the dumbing down of the game for people who don't make the effort.

Turtle_Bot

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Active Combat
We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

• No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
• Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
  

First off, I want to say, thank you for communicating with us, even if it doesn't completely answer our questions at the moment, with more communication and providing reasons for the decisions made will go a long way towards repairing the lost trust and giving the community the ability to see the end goals and the reasons for why there has been a lot of disruptions to reach those goals (see U35).

Next, and more importantly my 2 points that I have some serious questions about regarding balancing of magicka sorcerer.

I would like to bring your attention to these 2 specific quoted points from "Active Combat" and how they have conflicted with the balance and design choices of sorcerer abilities for years now.

First point is the "Most abilities are instant with cast times being the exception.

My question for this point is, why are both of the sorcerer burst heals (summon matriarch and dark exchange + morphs) tied to a cast time if cast times are supposed to be the exception and not the majority (yes the heal of matriarch is instant, but summoning the matriarch, which is required to be able to use the heal in the first place, has an interruptible cast time and the pets survivability (and AI) has not kept up with the power creep over the years that every other class has received so they have become walking (or flapping) targets in PvP).
Also the magicka morph of the class spammable ability (crystal fragments) not only has a cast time but also has very poor rng on it to actually deal damage that is comparable to other spammables and no other significant buffs to make up for this downside (plar jabs is AoE, and either heals or provides major sorcery/brutality and every other class's main in class spammable provides either strong unique buffs to damage, healing or utility (whip, concealed, dive) or is at the very least instant cast (skull/scythe)).

On to the second part, the point about no ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown.

Why do these 3 core key class defining abilities for sorcerer (frags, summon matriarch and dark exchange) go on to a long, forced cooldown if they are interrupted mid cast and most importantly why is this forced cooldown 3 times the length of the global cooldown of 1 second.
It is punishing enough that being interrupted mid cast cancels the ability and stuns the caster forcing them to break free, but to have such key core combat abilities such as both class burst heals and main magicka spammable be hard locked (greyed out) on a cooldown equal to 3 global cooldowns for being interrupted is way over the top and completely conflicts with this statement about "no ability cooldowns".

Hoping you can take these points into consideration for U37. Sorcerer doesn't need huge buffs to numbers, just freeing it from these clunky 2018 mechanics and punishing draw backs would allow the class to be fun and exciting to play again, as would releasing it from its pet enforced prison (please stop trying to force sorcerers into being zookeepers, many players don't enjoy this playstyle and forcing sorcerers into it by tying the main class burst heal to the pets conflicts with your "play how you want" mantra for many sorcerer players).

Ragnarok0130

Arunei wrote: »

@Kallykat
And why would people want to bother with mastering their builds and the content if they're ultimately going to be met with "you're doing too good so we're going to nerf you"? Trust me, I understand wanting to make it so more people can do the content, but maybe they should start looking at buffs that help people get closer to the ceiling rather than constantly bringing said ceiling down. And nerfing the top tier players doesn't help the average or below-average average players one bit.

And why would players master anything when the combat team is just going to upend the apple cart again, and again, and again every 3 months with bizarre out of touch combat changes sending players right back to the learning and re-progging phase which is highly discouraging from a player standpoint? I know ZoS wants old content to be viable again but this ain't the method to do it Chief. The combat team is their own worst enemy here and the player base has change fatigue for a reason and it's getting unbearable. Also nerfing the top end seems like it works directly against the whole "mastery" angle that Brian just spouted but looking back at the dev announcements/admission about the U35 changes it's not the first time that the dev team's stated goals and completed actions worked in direct contradiction to one another so I shouldn't be overly surprised here.

Ragnarok0130

Sarannah wrote: »

First of all, thank you for your
Personally I am never going to bother with any of the combat mechanics(weaving, rotation, barswapping, etc), as I feel it is too much work. And work is the last thing a game needs, in my opinion.

And you are right that vet/hm dungeons and trials do not require perfect or even high DPS, but the thing is, they do. Let me explain: At this moment there isn't a trialfinder available, meaning basically the only way to do (vet) trial content is through guilds. Guilds who set these crazy high requirements. So even though there isn't a requirement, technically there is a high minimum requirement because of (most) guilds. And for veteran/hm dungeons, if you do not have high enough DPS, you will get kicked. Combine that with players having unrealistically high expectations, and you have an endgame barely anyone runs. Or barely anyone can run/wants to run.

And yes, I do feel players should be able to clear vet/hm content without any "work". Hence the request for "crutch-mechanics". You can't seriously expect new players to stay with the game, if the first thing they hear is: "To play this game, you have to work on point a, b, c, and d, for many hours". This is an unreal expectation, as this will chase away almost any player. I love the game, and even I am not going to bother with any of that. Add to that the horrible group experiences with speedrunners plus fake roles, makes the choice for new players to stay with this game even smaller.

In my opinion, any player who wants to participate in any content, should be able to participate in that content. Atleast in PvE.

Your post comes off as you thinking that you are not good enough to do vet/vHM content and you don't want to do the requisite practice/work/farming to get better to be able to run that content, but still want to be allowed to do that content despite not having the skills or gear to complete that content making yourself a group carry. If you want that you can already do that by paying gold to a carry group, but the group content that end gamers find engaging is difficult, and requires homework, practice, commitment, and repetition to get good enough to complete it and we like the sense of accomplishment when we finally down a boss that we've been working on for a while. All content isn't made for all players to complete nor should it be. So if you don't want to do the work to run vet and vHM trials then don't, but you don't get to demand that you should be able to or that the content should be changed to something the current audience of that content would find unenjoyable.

All trial groups have to prog a new trial; nobody just spawns in for the first time and gets a trifecta, not even the top 1%, because they too need to figure out what the fight mechanics are, practice them, and then complete the trial even if it's relatively fast compared to normal trial groups. This isn't even limited to ESO, I progged Operations (their trials) in SWTOR for 7 years straight with the same group, my other SWTOR prog members came from WOW where they did the same thing - progging the hardest content is a staple of the MMO genre and trials should always require work, time, and commitment. If you want a quick run do a normal trial but watering down the hardest content so people don't have to "work" to complete would kill trials and end game communities and nobody wants to run a longer version of Fungal Grotto - there's a reason people always take the shortcut in that dungeon because it's unenjoyable being so easy.

No, trials and dungeons do not require perfect or high DPS since there are training groups, because as raider we want more raiders, more people to prog with which is why we train them instead of chasing them away. When it comes to specific content, Guilds/trial groups do not gate keep, they set base line requirements such as DPS numbers, gear sets required, and CP points to participate in a specific dungeon or trial prog group or just generic trial run because those are the bare minimum required to have a good chance of clearing that content and that's not even taking the trial specific mechs into account which are typically explained in game before a pull unless a group has run together consistently. These requirements are a direct reflection of the encounter team's design decisions not of guilds being "elitist" - this prevents the entire group from wasting their time progging a run when it was scheduled to be a fun or gear run. Guilds normally train their new raiders via normal trial gear runs so new raiders slowly get properly geared, learn how to raid, then they also host vet training runs, and once you start getting your clears you can join the big boy groups doing the harder trials. There's an entire method that you either didn't see in your experiences with guilds or decided you shouldn't have to abide by that would have set you up for success in end game raiding.

I 100% agree that there should be a normal Trial finder; this wouldn't work with vet because you need communication, and known quantities (minimum levels of gear/DPS/heals/tanks/knowledge) to clear vet trials. A normal trial finder would make gear farming much better for many people and allow people to see what trials are all about. We had a normal Operations finder in SWTOR and it was fun, however just like with ESO's dungeon finder sometimes the group doen't clear, and sometimes people leave when a specific Operation loads. Just temper your expectations for a normal trial finder if it ever happens. I encourage you to check out ESOU and its project vitality raider training. There are still a few training runs going on post U35 that would help you get up to speed if you really want to raid. There are also resources to help improve your DPS up to par if that is the role you wish to fill but that will require practice.

Sarannah

INM wrote: »

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Sarannah wrote: »

And you are right that vet/hm dungeons and trials do not require perfect or even high DPS, but the thing is, they do. Let me explain: At this moment there isn't a trialfinder available, meaning basically the only way to do (vet) trial content is through guilds. Guilds who set these crazy high requirements. So even though there isn't a requirement, technically there is a high minimum requirement because of (most) guilds. And for veteran/hm dungeons, if you do not have high enough DPS, you will get kicked. Combine that with players having unrealistically high expectations, and you have an endgame barely anyone runs. Or barely anyone can run/wants to run.

I wonder why people who complain about gatekeeping don't start their own group. Aren't there a lot of people who would join to a group like this? I would like to follow their proggress.

I knew beforehand people would get hung up on this part... which is why I used the words "most" and "barely anyone". Ofcourse I know there are other possibilities to make a group, and that some guilds have different requirements for groups, but that does not change that overall the minimum requirement for certain content is set by most guilds. And as a result, barely anyone running that content.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Well, what would be "not too much work"? ("work" being loose term here, as it's as much work as timing your block right in Skyrim)

There is a major difference... the core of the game, which I consider just blocking/roll dodge/interrupting/using skills, is fine. Everything else is too much, and should be done automatically by the game, unless/until the players themselves take over and start doing these combat mechanics manually. These combat mechanics existing isn't a problem, the fact barely anyone wants to learn/use, or even can learn them is. No matter what reason they have for not doing them, they do not perform them.

Also, is it not too much of an expectation to expect players to teach other players on how to do combat mechanics(weaving, rotation, barswapping, gearing, etc), as this takes hours. That is assuming that player even wants to know how to do all those combat mechanics. This entire expectation being put on existing players seems WAY too high/unrealistic to me. Even though some players do devote time to this, the expectations for this are just too high. As well as for the player receiving that "training".
This "learning" seems like too much of a hurdle, a hurdle which barely anyone overcomes. Keep in mind, this is a game... everyone should be able to have fun. As that would both benefit the lower end of the playersbase, and the top end of the playerbase. And even if combat mechanics would ever be automated, doing them manually would/should still result in higher DPS, so this does not require a new higher difficulty in-game. As everything at the top end stays the same.

Compare the core combat mechanics of ESO with other MMO's:
Other MMO's have many skills you can use, but all on a global cooldown. This reduces the button use to 1 clicks per second. With the exception of potions, food, or any other in the moment items. But those aren't used every second. So the average clicks for other MMO's is slightly above one. Maybe 1.1 or 1.2 clicks per second. But because of this, other MMO's are more about situational awareness, with which skill to use at which moment and dodging mechanics.
Now let's take ESO: In ESO skills are on a global cooldown of 1 second as well. Meaning if we would only compare skill use, it would be the same. But ESO has other things as well: Light attack weaving, which is used on every skill use. So once per second, making it two clicks per second. Add barswapping to that, and lets for arguments sake say players only barswap every 5 skills used. That means atleast 2.2 clicks per second. Add potions, foods, and any other in the moment items, and 2.5 clicks per second would be more realistic for ESO. So even though it may not be mindless buttonsmashing, it is buttonsmashing. All the while, players still have to do boss mechanics.
So to play ESO, players would need to be atleast 2.5 times as good/fast as when they would play other MMO's. Then there is also other things to consider: Latency, rotation, (buff) timers, boss mechanics, etc. This makes ESO's combat to be very very intense, and sensitive to even the most minor mishap.

Now I do not think anyone wants to change ESO's core combat mechanics, atleast I do not. As this is one of the things which makes ESO unique. But I do feel too much is expected from players, to not have these systems be done automatically if the player wants them to be done automatically. However, doing all these combat core mechanics manually should always provide a better result. Right now the DPS difference in same build/gear, can be 10k vs 100k. With automated crutch-mechanics, this could be 70k vs 100k. Depending on how these crutch-mechanics would be implemented.

In short: Raising the floor, without changing the ceiling nor ESO's core combat mechanics.

PS: I used to raid in other MMO's as well. And I do have practically all vet hm dungeon completes, except the newer ones(as tank). So it is not only a matter of skill. Though I have gotten too old for this many clicks per second, hehe.

INM

Sarannah wrote: »

I knew beforehand people would get hung up on this part... which is why I used the words "most" and "barely anyone". Ofcourse I know there are other possibilities to make a group, and that some guilds have different requirements for groups, but that does not change that overall the minimum requirement for certain content is set by most guilds. And as a result, barely anyone running that content.

How does it change my point? You are implying that "barely anyone" is running that content because "overall the minimum requirement for certain content is set by most guilds". From this it turns out that there are much more people than "barely anyone" who want to play this content, but due to the requirements, they cannot play it.
I repeat the question. Why people who aren't happy with existing requirements aren't starting their own groups. Not look for a group without requirements, but start their own. According to you there should be many people (and it's supposedly majority) who would gladly join a group that has no requirements whatsoever.

WoppaBoem

Bravo, using many words to say nothing really. What is in this text that is in any sense something new. What should have been included we will always create new to powerfull stuff to increase sales and create a form of pay to win. This boost our sales and is driven by boosting sales not players wished. If players get enjoyment out of it that would be a bonus.

Caribou77

warich wrote: »

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ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.

• Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armor
• Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
• "Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.

How does this fit in to when warden skills and passives were linked to the destruction/ice staff?
Genuinely curious as my build does not include a destruction staff and greatly suffers for it. The class is pigeon holed into using the weapon. (edit: removing linked picture)

I second this ^^

The frost staff RESTRICTION on Magicka Warden is in direct opposition to the stated core value “Play the Way You Want.”

Nothing but frost wardens in pvp now, and I can’t blame them as it’s the only viable option for Magwarden.

I would like to be able to use an inferno staff without sacrificing 10% damage across the board, and I would like Deep Fissure returned to a viable skill with better damage on a 3-second timer.

Concealed Weapon, an instant cast “spammable,” does nearly as much damage as DF, a 3-second delayed skill shot that’s easy to miss. This is not balanced.

Marcelovski

qcell wrote: »

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code65536 wrote: »

What proportion of the tanks who have cleared DSR HM or RG HM was not a DK+Necro pair?

Spoiler

U35


U36

Well, that lonely sorctank progressing for swashbuckler is me.
Makes me wonder if anyone else did planesbreaker on sorctank or if I'm the only one.

While class diversity on tanks in both new trials is definitely a huge problem, I also don't think the non-meta classes are that much worse when it comes to survivability (except templar being frankly unusable). Yes, they don't have the DoT reduction like necro or free block mitigation and resistances like DK, but in my opinion the bigger issue is them not having any unique utility which isn't already provided by DDs or healers. For example, DK has stone giant and more recently magma shell for some strategies in dsr.

That said, at least on sorc the near infinite sustain via dark deal and quick movement with streak can be really useful in certain situations (e.g. in dsr lever pulls or really quick stacking of mages on 2nd boss). It doesn't feel like a downgrade to me. Everything else sadly doesn't have much to offer. Just my 2 cents on this. ^^

VaranisArano

INM wrote: »

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Sarannah wrote: »

I knew beforehand people would get hung up on this part... which is why I used the words "most" and "barely anyone". Ofcourse I know there are other possibilities to make a group, and that some guilds have different requirements for groups, but that does not change that overall the minimum requirement for certain content is set by most guilds. And as a result, barely anyone running that content.

How does it change my point? You are implying that "barely anyone" is running that content because "overall the minimum requirement for certain content is set by most guilds". From this it turns out that there are much more people than "barely anyone" who want to play this content, but due to the requirements, they cannot play it.
I repeat the question. Why people who aren't happy with existing requirements aren't starting their own groups. Not look for a group without requirements, but start their own. According to you there should be many people (and it's supposedly majority) who would gladly join a group that has no requirements whatsoever.

My experience with organized groups is more PVP than PVE, but I imagine its similar. Most players don't start their own regular group without requirements because it's a lot of effort and eventually, they figure out the value of minimum requirements if they are doing content where it matters.

PUGs can get away with no requirements and low expectations.

Organizing a regular group is a ton of work and a bigger time commitment. So the more people do it, the more they realize the value of having minimum requirements that respect the whole group's time. Moreover, they end up seeing the tangible impact on the group's success when someone isn't on the same page as everyone else.

LordDragonMara

Since i read the U35 i moved to BDO, main reason obviously the Combat. I love everything else in ESO. World is gorgeous, items and the way your characters looking super aesthetic without bloating crazy big stuffs that ruin the immersion.
Questing, dungeons, content wise I prefer ESO in everything.
But the moment i see game Devs starting to talk about lowering the skill ceiling, so the floor can be raised i know this is the beginning of the end.
You can't magically turn bad players into a good one. You can artificially make someone better/good at a certain game.

And at the end of the day people should know in what they are getting into it. And all the crying and complains after it, are absolutely wasted, cause it's their fault.
This is a MMORPG, and there is obviously a requirements that you need to do/know in order to do well.
If the game is not deep, and doesn't have in-depth mechanics and skillful wise combat with a lot of room to improve, and as you said something to work and improve after X amounts of hours, then there is something very wrong.

I'm an ex RTS player(long time ago SC and WC3), ex Mobba and FPS player, and the skills and practice required in ESO compare to this genre to become a good/top player is laughable million times lower.

You literally have 5 bars + ultimate. If people can't learn a simple rotation in ESO, then the problem is not in the game, but in them. ESO has the easiest rotation of all MMOS out there probably. It's super simplified.

Also LA Weaving and animation canceling as a whole is the only thing that make this game engaging and a little bit of skill basing, and give a little bit of gap between the players in terms of mechanics.
And some people still don't get that LA is not about mashing your Left Mouse button as hard as possible, but it's all about the timing.
When you were promoting the game with the Action Combat and engaging, and then you nerf everything about that ....

U35 turn this game into a mess. Making me spam the same ability over and over again, cause someone i struggling to click a button or 2 every second, just LOL, and then talking about Mastery ...

There was a simple solution for low tier players, just make some of the classes(or certain ability/playstyle) more newbie friendly and have character(ability/playstyle) that require decent APM and let's said it decent mechanical skills and whoever wants to be good will play them, learn and get better overall.

I have high APM and i want to practice that APM in games, so this is the way i sustain it or improve it.
Why would you penalize me for my hard work, and because someone is lazy or just don't care ?
Isn't it different difficulty, like normal, hard, etc exactly for that ???

I will check what U37 will bring to the game and think if it's worth it to comeback or will just continue to grind on BDO. Where while i don't like a lot of things, the combat is almost flawless and rewards skillful execution.

Also age is just a number. I see people excusing their lack of skills with being 30+ is, just another bad example of lame excuse. I'm 33, and my reaction time, WPM, CPS, APM, etc is probably at my all time highest.

There is 60+ years guys that play Fighting Game, that are heavily reaction and fast finger based. So the age excuse is just lame.

And ESO never ever require that type of skills, neither some super high numbers that take years of hard practice.

P.P. it always takes practice to get good at what your doing. No matter if it's a game, profession or hobby.

NextTuesday

Sarannah wrote: »

Now I do not think anyone wants to change ESO's core combat mechanics, atleast I do not. As this is one of the things which makes ESO unique. But I do feel too much is expected from players, to not have these systems be done automatically if the player wants them to be done automatically. However, doing all these combat core mechanics manually should always provide a better result. Right now the DPS difference in same build/gear, can be 10k vs 100k. With automated crutch-mechanics, this could be 70k vs 100k. Depending on how these crutch-mechanics would be implemented.

In short: Raising the floor, without changing the ceiling nor ESO's core combat mechanics.

A team can do normal Hel Ra Citadel from start to finish without any gear except what you pick up from trash if you bother learning the mechanics and how combat works in group content, and it doesn't require much clicks-per-second optimisation. You can be sloppy with low DPS and still clear a normal trial, it just takes longer.

The requirements for training trials are basically none besides be in voice chat to listen to instructions and saying anything to the contrary is just false. Since ZOS doesn't bother teaching people how to play group content it falls to the community. If you don't want to or can't put in the work to play at higher levels then don't. Accept you won't get those achievements unless you pay for a carry and move on. I'll never get Planesbreaker with my disabilities but I still enjoy progging and I don't expect that bar to be lowered to me.

Stop nerfing the game because people playing at a level above other people after the work put in is somehow unfair. We want a challenge and we want to be rewarded. You don't get to autopilot that. It's like casuals asking for Elden Ring etc to get nerfed. If these games are too hard for you then move on to something that isn't, or stick to overland and normal difficulty group content, and leave us who enjoy hard stuff to enjoy hard stuff.

I don't tell the devs to get rid of Tales of Tribute even though it's a junk mini game with broken ranking that's aggravating to play for rewards that really aren't worth it. It's a time sink for hours played on the clock at best. Go do stuff like that and do normal trials, and let people who enjoy hard trials enjoy hard trials without everything getting nerfed or broken every 3 months.

LordDragonMara

Exactly. I don't get some people complain on here. And the whole nerfing the top tier players, because some are just lazy.
It's like buying a single player game, and start complaining that you can't do the Hard Mode, because you are not good enough. You are not supposed to beat the Hard difficulty without putting enough effort or being good enough at this type of games.

TechMaybeHic

I'd like to know why one class has great tools and a super high ceiling and is fun to play to maneuver and master all those tools while others are as simplistic and nerfed to niche builds that just do not feel rewarding nor fun unless you "cheese" one aspect. And if it has anything to do with hiring a guy that maimed the former.

This is NOT to say to destroy the one class that feels skill based and rewarding

Mesite

I mentioned that I encourage people to 'play the way you want' recently in another post and the answers from other players was 'Not in my party'. I'd like to see how this aspect is developed but it will be a difficult goal.

code65536

LordDragonMara wrote: »

But the moment i see game Devs starting to talk about lowering the skill ceiling, so the floor can be raised i know this is the beginning of the end.

The goal was not to lower the skill ceiling: the goal was to lower the power associated with that skill ceiling. It may seem like a subtle distinction, but it's an important one.

And that outsized effect of that skill ceiling causes very real, tangible problems, such as with content balance. Their goal of closing the power gap (not necessarily the skill gap) is a much-needed one. Now, one could argue that their attempts at doing this in U35 were ineffective, but they were absolutely correct in the pursuit of that goal, even if their actual attempt was a fumble.

LordDragonMara

code65536 wrote: »

show previous quotes

LordDragonMara wrote: »

But the moment i see game Devs starting to talk about lowering the skill ceiling, so the floor can be raised i know this is the beginning of the end.

The goal was not to lower the skill ceiling: the goal was to lower the power associated with that skill ceiling. It may seem like a subtle distinction, but it's an important one.

And that outsized effect of that skill ceiling causes very real, tangible problems, such as with content balance. Their goal of closing the power gap (not necessarily the skill gap) is a much-needed one. Now, one could argue that their attempts at doing this in U35 were ineffective, but they were absolutely correct in the pursuit of that goal, even if their actual attempt was a fumble.

Their goal was pretty clear. Actually nerf the top tier, and artificially try to bring everyone else to their level, which is the worst thing you could try do in any Online game.
They say they want more diversity, but they actually kill a lot of diversity, cause there was plenty of LA builds, and they literally kills it. They also lowered the floor with making Dots from 10 to 20 seconds. This is clearly removing skills from the game, and actually punish the good players, which is the worst thing you can do again in Online games.

Let me quote them on this one, and their desire"

Currently, many of these abilities fall within a 10-second window, meaning to maximize your efficiency, you must activate them once every 10 seconds. With 10 total active ability slots at your disposal, this often creates a situation where you want to load up almost every slot with one of these abilities, adding to your combat output for each duration-based effect you utilize. Between this and the engagement of weaving, this creates a reality where high actions per minute (APM) is required to be effective, as well as a robust rotation to keep as many of these effects up as possible. This in turn reinforces a need to glue your eyes to your action bars, taking you out of the action happening on screen. While this can create exhilarating combat experiences where you need to constantly monitor different activities on screen, it can also be overwhelming and particularly challenging for you to do so at the rate required to be effective.

As such, coming in Update 35, we are increasing the duration of many of these effects in game, primarily damage over time, buffs, and debuffs. By extending the duration, we hope to reduce the stress of many combat rotations, allowing for you to focus more on the action in front of you rather than the action of juggling buffs and debuffs on your ability bar and making the game far more accessible.

I would understand that if the game actually require high APM, like 200-250+, but that wasn't the case at all to be absolutely 100% optimal. The required APM was a lot lower.

Yeah their intention was perfectly clear, aka we want to turn this game into a potato mode.

Grega

Yup. Templar class is def not part of your values, let alone stamina Templar which is deleted now.

Also, as some others stated. If this is the only kind of communication you can offer (politically placed statements that tell us nothing new and are not helpful), then silence is actually probably better.

As a day 1 player, all this makes me really sad. Not even angry really anymore. I need a “depression” emote.

Elsonso

NextTuesday wrote: »

Stop nerfing the game because people playing at a level above other people after the work put in is somehow unfair. We want a challenge and we want to be rewarded. You don't get to autopilot that. It's like casuals asking for Elden Ring etc to get nerfed. If these games are too hard for you then move on to something that isn't, or stick to overland and normal difficulty group content, and leave us who enjoy hard stuff to enjoy hard stuff.

ZOS should not balance this game around the capabilities and preferences of the people who have mastered the game. At best, they can provide hard content for them, but the majority of the game has to be attainable by people who have not (yet) mastered the game. Even the hard content can't be too hard or it becomes a barrier.

NextTuesday

Nerf the content, not the players. It's not our fault ZOS squeeze the power creep and mechanics into every new release. We didn't ask for forced mechanics and what they've done to DoTs, especially ground AoEs. In the same breath they're saying they want to make combat more accessible they're making it ridiculously complicated to execute for people who don't want to or can't invest the effort to learn and grind.

Getting Graven Deep on a random normal makes me cringe because people don't know and can't follow the mechanics and the dungeon can't be completed. Same with world bosses overland, like Walks-Like-Thunder in Mirkmire. Try clearing that with the totem heal mechanic when nobody knows how it works. Depending how bad it is and who's there it's impossible to kill no matter how masteried you are.

Now I have grind, change, and incompetent group member fatigue I'm not playing any more because it's just straight up frustrating not being able to at least melt through stuff. I can burn through Fungal Grotto pretty much on my own but trying to do DLC random normals is torture. I always slow down for people to do the quests and make sure they wait when they need to so they don't miss a step, and I do the quests for skill points on my lowbies. But the point is to get it done as efficiently as possible for the rewards. I'd do random vets if there was a chance the higher difficulty would bring higher competence but it doesn't and I just want to melt things for transmutes.

That's how I want to play, so why does everyone have to get nerfed when the complicated content and lack of skill/knowledge in less powerful players are the problems? Teach people how to succeed and they will, unless they expect to succeed without effort. We don't expect the game to be tailored around the endgame prog community but a little consideration would be nice. I feel bad for the PvP community and their perpetually broken, stale environment. Consideration for them would be nice too. And I straight up have no idea how people play this game on console with all those problems.

Sarannah

NextTuesday wrote: »

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Sarannah wrote: »

Now I do not think anyone wants to change ESO's core combat mechanics, atleast I do not. As this is one of the things which makes ESO unique. But I do feel too much is expected from players, to not have these systems be done automatically if the player wants them to be done automatically. However, doing all these combat core mechanics manually should always provide a better result. Right now the DPS difference in same build/gear, can be 10k vs 100k. With automated crutch-mechanics, this could be 70k vs 100k. Depending on how these crutch-mechanics would be implemented.

In short: Raising the floor, without changing the ceiling nor ESO's core combat mechanics.

A team can do normal Hel Ra Citadel from start to finish without any gear except what you pick up from trash if you bother learning the mechanics and how combat works in group content, and it doesn't require much clicks-per-second optimisation. You can be sloppy with low DPS and still clear a normal trial, it just takes longer.

The requirements for training trials are basically none besides be in voice chat to listen to instructions and saying anything to the contrary is just false. Since ZOS doesn't bother teaching people how to play group content it falls to the community. If you don't want to or can't put in the work to play at higher levels then don't. Accept you won't get those achievements unless you pay for a carry and move on. I'll never get Planesbreaker with my disabilities but I still enjoy progging and I don't expect that bar to be lowered to me.

Stop nerfing the game because people playing at a level above other people after the work put in is somehow unfair. We want a challenge and we want to be rewarded. You don't get to autopilot that. It's like casuals asking for Elden Ring etc to get nerfed. If these games are too hard for you then move on to something that isn't, or stick to overland and normal difficulty group content, and leave us who enjoy hard stuff to enjoy hard stuff.

I don't tell the devs to get rid of Tales of Tribute even though it's a junk mini game with broken ranking that's aggravating to play for rewards that really aren't worth it. It's a time sink for hours played on the clock at best. Go do stuff like that and do normal trials, and let people who enjoy hard trials enjoy hard trials without everything getting nerfed or broken every 3 months.

Did you quote me by accident? ... Because I never asked for any nerfs, never asked for any changes at the top end, nor for anything to be removed. And I do not think having the core combat mechanics automated up to a certain level, is having an autopilot, nor is that a nerf.

PS: "it just takes longer" is what happened with U35's nerfs at the top end, which wasn't well received, and apparently caused many top players to quit.

Elsonso wrote: »

show previous quotes

NextTuesday wrote: »

Stop nerfing the game because people playing at a level above other people after the work put in is somehow unfair. We want a challenge and we want to be rewarded. You don't get to autopilot that. It's like casuals asking for Elden Ring etc to get nerfed. If these games are too hard for you then move on to something that isn't, or stick to overland and normal difficulty group content, and leave us who enjoy hard stuff to enjoy hard stuff.

ZOS should not balance this game around the capabilities and preferences of the people who have mastered the game. At best, they can provide hard content for them, but the majority of the game has to be attainable by people who have not (yet) mastered the game. Even the hard content can't be too hard or it becomes a barrier.

Agreed! There is a reason why the playercount increased with OneTamriel, the game's difficulty was no longer a barrier for many.

NextTuesday

You have a variety of escalating difficulties to choose from in this game. The hardest content is achievable for many people. It isn't for many others. Why? People can't do enough DPS and they don't know mechanics or how to play their roles. How do people learn mechanics? Give them toggleable combat tips and tutorials during combat in trials and dungeons etc. How do people learn their roles? Give the Fighters, Mage's, and Psijic guilds or the Undaunted something to to by giving DPS, tank, and healer training.

ZOS can create their own "how to play" recources online instead of relying on the community to output and regulate the amount of information people need but aren't given. Where's this aspect of "raising the floor" in any of ZOS' plans for mastery? Or is this one of those things that's too much effort and money for the studio to invest, so the players can keep teaching other players or just be bad at the game? Even with all this, people who don't want to do "homework" won't, and will remain unable to do group content well. Anyone who won't play as a team by playing to their role and moving with the group will fail at group content. There is no amount of nerfing players that will ever change that.

Combat changes in U35 had the opposite effect to the intention stated. The intention was to raise the floor by simplifying DoTs. We see more parses well above 100k, nice work. They're invariably the same races of the same classes in the same gear with the same skills and the same potions and the same buff foods. Stale homogenised meta. People in the same meta are failing to reach that level, we're still seeing parses at 50k. Why? What's the difference?

Mastery. People have to put a lot of effort into learning light attack weaving, optimised ability rotations, when to synergise or take a potion, and manage all those bits and pieces just bashing a dummy. It can be overwhelming but it gets better with practice. With practice people will see their DPS rise with their mastery. There are addons and community members who can help to learn about cooldowns, animations cancelling, etc. Then they have to transfer those skills to an active environment with mechanics and 11 other group members. It's a lot. There is nothing that can be done to not make learning group content a lot.

ZOS can deal with the accessibility, as in disability accommodations, side of things by nerfing or by providing alternatives. We're sick of all the nerfing. Medium and heavy attack builds should be perfectly viable if light attacks are too much. I have arthritis and I can relate. But they aren't, because ZOS keeps changing combat to focus around one thing or another. I don't even remember why heavy attack builds got nerfed. Classes get nerfed into the ground and forgotten about then resurrected as OP. Rinse and repeat. So much change has happened so frequently that things constantly have to be relearned, re-geared, re-adjusted, or some other kind of grind and we're just done. That's another reasons the endgamers left. We don't want to spend our time farming gear and materials to compensate for the most recent combat upheavals, we just want to prog trifectas.

I'm really tired of people wanting to be able to do everything in a game just because they bought it and trying to drag the game down when they can't. MMORPGs aren't meant to be "platinumed". The endgame doesn't want to have the game revolve around them and nobody is asking for that. Y'all can keep your overland etc however you want and get into group progression like everyone else. Just don't expect to be able to do group content well without learning how. It's ZOS' own fault ZOS doesn't teach you how to play properly, not our fault for being exclusionary or inaccessible.

The poor quality of life in the game this year in particular and the lack of proper communication from ZOS are just nails in the coffin. Committed endgame proggers will still be around and if new players want to learn they will teach them. Apart from that PvP is pretty dead after years of neglect, which kind of defeats the purpose, because they're sick of these combat upheavals and bugs too. In trying to appeal to a wider audience ZOS has moved the game in the direction of being Skyrim Online and lost a large part of its identity and player base in the process. At this rate they'll be losing brand loyalty, which should be a priority in marketing metrics.