ESO Developer Deep Dive - Core Combat Values

Jaraal

Woodenplank wrote: »

Hybridization has been so big for ZOS that they'll never roll it back, I don't think. But I sure hope they take many initiatives in the future to diversify builds and playstyles. Between different Classes but markedly also within Classes themselves.

I think they tried that with the new class sets. But the sets themselves are so weak and so niche... I don't know of anyone who actually uses them, personally. And the best of the lot belongs to the (arguably) most overperforming class, so they certainly weren't designed to balance the classes.

autocookies

deleted

yadibroz

I hope they fix warden

MindOfTheSwarm

When you say “Class selection does not constrain or define role.” Does this mean as as tank, DPS and healer?

If so this isn’t enough, classes absolutely are constrained because there simply aren’t enough alternative skill options that exist outside of classes. Split up the destro staves and add some new world skill lines. We have enough classes.

Galeriano

I feel like main post didn't aged well.

Duke_Falcon

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hey, I was browsing the forums and read your post. I really enjoyed it, and like the direction the game is going. I decided to toss in a comment to help with that direction in regards to one skill in the game. I copied and pasted down below part of the initial post you made.

"Active Combat

We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown
No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
Weapon swapping"

Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

moderatelyfatman

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler


Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

I was told that Dark Deal originally didn't have a channel but it was brought in because people were spamming it in PvP and becoming unkillable.
A good solution would be similar to Streak where the cost increases by 33% when cast within 4s of the previous casting. This would make the skill viable for Sorc Tanking in PvE while preventing abuse in PvP.
If they also allowed the Minor Sorcery/Brutality to be an AOE that affects the party, DK will now have a serious contender in PvE tanking.

Duke_Falcon

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

show previous quotes

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler


Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

I was told that Dark Deal originally didn't have a channel but it was brought in because people were spamming it in PvP and becoming unkillable.
A good solution would be similar to Streak where the cost increases by 33% when cast within 4s of the previous casting. This would make the skill viable for Sorc Tanking in PvE while preventing abuse in PvP.
If they also allowed the Minor Sorcery/Brutality to be an AOE that affects the party, DK will now have a serious contender in PvE tanking.

They were just spamming it because you could block cast it. So they made it so you had to block drop to use it, because people were spamming it to keep their Stamina up so the could infinitely block. I think a better solution would be to make the resource return be over time instead of instant, it fixes that problem without having to have the cast time.

Sabre

Contrary to some of the comments here, animation cancelling while getting the effect/dmg of the animation should absolutely be eliminated. If the animation of a skill is 'cancelled' by using block or light attack, then the damage for that skill should also not occur because, in essence, the skill was cancelled. No animation, no effect. One should be able to cancel with block, but not get the skill benefit. Furthermore, the defender should be able to see the attack whether it be an instant ability, channel, or light/heavy attack, so that the defender can then use a counter core ability or wpn/class ability to counter the attack. Animation cancelling negates the defender being able to know that they are being attacked, in some cases multiple times, by abilities upon which they cannot react, or even see or know are happening. Even a light attack has a brief 'animation' that should have to complete so that one can react to it. The ANIMATION is the notification to the defender that an enemy is attacking or casting/channeling etc.

As for the 'hybridization' of things' - Everything from class sets, to ability passives, racial passives, abilities themselves, etc need reworked because they are based upon a STAM vs MAG build theory. Simply changing everything to Wpn & Spell damage, vs. having only one or the other is not enough of a change. The Arcanist abilities that simply follow the highest of either ability is ridiculously simple and while it is an attempt at innovation, it simply reinforces the failure of this simplified system. You could probably just throw away many of the sets because, with the dumbed down system they are replicas of the same thing. Plus, now you can stack magicka and stamina sets like Hundings Rage and Law of Julianos, because they are now weapon&spell damage. One could look at all the different sets other hybridization examples that basically negate the need for some sets now.

Hybridization was a mistake. The game is being dumbed down to elementary arcade game levels. Why haven't they made a class that focuses on stamina/warrior rather than magicka? Who knows. The class system is flawed at its core, and with so much content, probably can't be reworked and fixed. How about some other kind of class that can cloak like the nightblade?

Bring back Max Stam buffing wpn dmg and penetration, and do the same for magicka. This creates diversity of builds. One might think that the whole system could be reworked to have schools of magic, a martial combat skill tree (with weapon specialization at the top). The fact that class skills were split between a stamina version and a magicka version is disappointing (to use a milder term than was considered). This is a cheap way to make two skills out of the same animation...but it creates where a weapon/stam/non magic user (supposedly) can cast a spell with the same animation and it just costs stamina. NOW...one can buff their weapon damage and still cast all the magicka abilities. Dumbed down even more. A templar can use a 2h sword, get the dmg buff, and use all of the heals and spells of the templar...like honor the dead. no need for a stam heal ability or potions. Everything is basically dumbed down to animation differences, not actual differences. All the classes are the same, they just go about it in different ways. All the abilities were normalized, and now there is nothing new...a dps tree, a tank tree, and a heal tree...<yawn> .

Many skills now are dependent upon 'max health' for the shield buff, or the damage of the ability...but nothing is dependent upon max stamina or max magicka? Only max health for assorted skills? combine that with weapon and spell damage are no longer separate...and a sword or bow also increases spell damage...now all that matter is not max stat, but only stacking dmg, crit, and pen...it is simplified and unified to basically get rid of another one of the variables one would use for a build. The max stat dynamic tempered the stacking of health and damages because abilities would lack power if they did not have some max stat to go with it. The lack of need for max stats further dumbs things down, negates the benefits of bothering to use sets that increase stats. Now it is stack health, stack damage, and get regeneration for sustain.

The only class semi differnt than all others is the nightblade and the sorc with its pets. Why doesn't the Necro have slottable pet undead? WTH! When one thinks necro..one thinks risen undead followers...not magic missile skulls (a skin for the same ability used over and over in different ways). One imagines having skeletons, spirits, zombies, maybe some powerful undead lord ultimate. Perhaps...the follower system could be reworked into the companion ally system and allow more than one of the followers. This is a digression...but it boils down to hybridization and normalization of everything...where the skills are just skin animations of the same thing rather than being truly unique and engaging. Yes, they vary ini terms of passive effects, duration, damage type...but in the end, it is the same thing over and over.

The lack of character custom skills like strength, agility, intelligence, etc. make the skill system even more dumbed down. Were there more complexity, there might be more variables to play with...but as it is, there isn't anything new to do. Arcanist was a nice try...but one needs to cast noodle abilities to get crux to have any meaningful effect..it is simply inefficient, although interesting (the necrom map and content is very good!)
It seems appropriate to say that the Arcanist beam spell is truly innovative, because it does not follow the target like arrows and other spells. This is how bow attacks and other attacks should be, rather than curving and following the target. This is a huge innovation to combat and aiming, etc.
Magicka/stamina skill morphs were ridiculously simple and...disappointing to begin with...hybridization only further reveals the terribly flawed class system and now stamina/weapon users are magicians too - it is quite frankly ridiculous and elementary arcade game-like.

Artem_gig

Please allow players using the bow to choose in the gameplay settings exactly how the heavy attack will be used. In this regard, whether to immediately release the arrow as soon as the heavy attack is charged, or still when the player himself releases the button, in order for the shot to occur.

ViggyBoi

Would it be possible to extend the duration of either Carnage or the major berserk buff tied to Hircine's rage so that they aren't so short and overlap each other so often on a werewolf rotation? Even by a couple of seconds?

xylena_lazarow

Please stop putting cast times on melee skills. It feels horrible. Nobody is going to use 2h Smash, seriously whose idea was it to clone Cleave but put a horrible clunky cast time on it (because the 2h line doesn't already have enough horrible clunky cast times on skills that nobody likes). Similarly, stop buffing ranged attackers, it's turning PvP into a bad shooter, Sorc Ward is still broken, melee gets slower and clumsier while range gets burst procs and reliable instant attacks?

Asdara

The current Sorcerer class sets are SO misaligned with these stated game's "core combat values", they need a complete rework asap. Here’s why:

"Play The Way You Want": Sorcerer sets lack innovation and don’t offer diverse build options. They fail to enhance any unique Sorcerer play styles, like lightning magic, restricting player freedom and creativity.

"Active Combat": The sets don't contribute to the dynamic, fast-paced combat ESO promotes (or anything, really). They miss opportunities to enhance Sorcerer’s mobility or active lightning abilities, making combat feel less and less engaging.

"Mastery": These sets don’t encourage any slight progression or any skill refinement. They provide absolutly no depth for long-term players seeking to optimize Sorcerer builds and rotations, undermining the game's focus on mastery.

"Elder Scrolls Inspired": The lack of support for lightning damage ignores the iconic part of the Elder Scrolls lore, leaving sorcerers class identity underdeveloped.

Despite repeated concerns from players, no meaningful changes have been made, leaving us feeling undervalued and disconnected from the game’s evolving combat system as always.

Please if a dev sees this: check my previous post regarding the necessity to rework sorcerer class sets https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664497/reworking-sorcerer-class-sets-should-be-a-priority/p1

MindOfTheSwarm

Overall I’m happy with the game. PvP has issues but always has. If there is one thing I’d like it’s a more Disease skills. Either a weapon skill line, new class or some other. Disease is woefully underrepresented and NB and Necro really don’t have enough in their kit to make a true Disease build.

MincMincMinc

Please focus on developing clear and concise gameplay. Things that ARE important should BE important. Things that CAN be counterplayed, SHOULD be telegraphed as such with clear opportunities. Focus on making digestible and fun combat instead of convoluted messes.

1. Ultimates and CC should be prioritized animation wise. Spammable skills should not have flashy animations that hide the vastly more important effects happening in combat. Example being meteor and Valkyn Skoria: one being a deadly ultimate that can decimate a group of players, the other is an uncounterable proc set...... but they have the same animation.
2. Snares and Immobolizes(roots) are far too prevalent with limited sources of immunity. The vast majority of players rely on counterplay skills such as Race Against Time and Warden's Predator skill. Both of these skills do not focus on incentivizing the counterplay and rewarding it. Example: Applies 4s of snare and immobilize immunity, upon succesfully removing a snare or immobilize grant the user 4s of major expedition or double the duration of immunity.
3. Skills and effects do not need to be paragraphs long, reduce the convoluted designs. Example old Dizzy swing vs new dizzy swing. Prior to Elsweyr Dizzy was simple and understood by everyone including new players, a long telegraphed cast that was easy to see and long enough to counter. If not countered, the defending player was punished with damage and a knockup. Now newer dizzy has a short cast time and less than stellar damage which goes against core build ideas for the 2h burst playstyle. It applies one of two debuffs based on a near invisible debuff animation with unknown effects. Seriously Offbalance is not explained in game with values available to the common player who doesnt do testing for timers/cooldowns. On top of the random debuff, if a player is offbalance the stun is not tied to the skill. Which means that the defending player cannot anticipate a critical CC which otherwise they should have been able to counterplay against to avoid entirely. If anything the offbalance+snare debuff playstyle would make more sense on the last Dual Wield skill, where a more bursty reward skill pairs with the 2h single big hit bursty nature.

Early on many people compared ESO's combat to a fighting game type of back and forth play/counterplay. Now adays combat is such a blurry mess of wtf is going on.

Slash8915

Combat in ESO is by far the number one complaint I see people make online when talking about this game. It's why a lot of people stopped playing, it's why a lot of people refuse to start playing, and it honestly needs to be addressed.

The floaty, unimpactful combat just doesn't feel good. That coupled with all of the weaving and animation canceling makes it just not fun or engaging.

Also, you've added multiple new classes but no new weapons. I think adding a few new weapons to the mix with new skill lines could make a huge difference in how people play their characters and roles in general. Why this game has been out for 11 years and not a single new weapon has been added is beyond me.

Tonturri

Slash8915 wrote: »

Combat in ESO is by far the number one complaint I see people make online when talking about this game. It's why a lot of people stopped playing, it's why a lot of people refuse to start playing, and it honestly needs to be addressed.

The floaty, unimpactful combat just doesn't feel good. That coupled with all of the weaving and animation canceling makes it just not fun or engaging.

Also, you've added multiple new classes but no new weapons. I think adding a few new weapons to the mix with new skill lines could make a huge difference in how people play their characters and roles in general. Why this game has been out for 11 years and not a single new weapon has been added is beyond me.

+1 to this. I've been craving another magicka weapon too, or at least a magic-damage staff of some sort as sometimes I don't want to deal with the whole elemental theming of frost/fire/lightning. Sacrificing some skeevers on an altar and hoping the next class is a monk and primarily stamina based + unarmed weapons, maybe? A spear would be quite cool and has some really good examples to draw from - GW2 recently added spears, even!

Idinuse

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hey, I was browsing the forums and read your post. I really enjoyed it, and like the direction the game is going. I decided to toss in a comment to help with that direction in regards to one skill in the game. I copied and pasted down below part of the initial post you made.

"Active Combat

We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown
No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
Weapon swapping"

Scorer's Dark Deal/Conversion skill cancels its self out when ever you Block, Roll Dodge, Bash, Sprint, or Weapon Swap. I often find myself pausing combat entirely just to hit the skill, which seems to be against the kind of fast paced action you want to build into the game.

I suspect the cast time was added to it to prevent block tanks from abusing the skill because it has an incredible amount of resource return, which Sorc desperately needs because its skill costs are insanely high. The massive resource return is needed just to use the class skills.

To help achieve the goals of fast paced combat perhaps the one time instant burst sustain could be distributed over 20 or 30 seconds without a cast time being placed on the skill, so that Sorc could then use the base game actions of Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint, and Weapon Swapping to help achieve the goals of continuous action while using the skill.

This. Plus the Sorcerer "instant cast" skills suffer far too much from long animations that in effect gives them a "cast time" which is impossible to animation cancel (i.e. block cancels the animation and skill entirely, how's that for an "instant" cast...). The "instant" cast of a proced Crystal Frag is a great example. In 80% of the time it feels like I can get hit twice between pressing the key and the frag actually going off. Most of the time I have to press it 3 times on top of that animation. Having "Instant" written on a skill does not make it so. Also there are far too many "instant" mag skills that are near impossible to animation cancel compared to stam skills.

If ZOS wants a "fast paced" combat game they need to make all skills behave exactly the same way (cast wise) if labeled "Instant" - mag or stam.

Rungar

such a wonderful game unfortunately completely ruined by non dodge weaving/animation cancelling. I cant believe after all this time they still havent fixed that. The biggest complaint the game has ever had lol.

Dont waste your time trying to "upgrade" the combat without fixing that. Crazy. This really is the best mmo out there but its held back by shoddy combat and always was.

amazing item system
massive amount of content
good classes
combat: decent until you have to weave to progress with it.
dungeons good but repetetive linear design. I even gave you the blueprint for amazing innovative dungeons ( radial dungeons) years ago but i guess you werent interested. Your loss. i did see you finally changed it up this round with the defense based dungeon. I guess thats something.

Your only real competition is you. Theres lots of interest in mmos but little competetion..but nothing new/good to play. If you want to get people back upgrade the combat experience, and maybe upgrade the graphics engine to unreal 5 or something newer that can handle more players. Youve done the same thing over and over for years and years and its kept you alive but also kept you from thriving. Relaunch the game with new graphics, new designs, new combat.. If you need ideas check out my ideas emporium. It has literally everything you need.