ESO Developer Deep Dive - Core Combat Values

The_Titan_Tim

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I can BARELY go 1v1 with another player now! I can time my Power of the Light, Stun, and Crescent Sweep perfectly, I can "Follow Up" and Radiant Oppression while having Rally AND Clever Alch up! ... and the target doesn't even flinch.

Most of Templar damage is coming from outside of the class right now after losing Puncturing Strikes, which I’m not exactly too bothered by, as jabbing away at people for 7 years straight got a little boring, being that no other ability came remotely close to being in an acceptable spot as a spammable by comparison.

Have to say though, there is massive power behind a medium weaved guaranteed Crescent from a Dizzying Swing. If you need help with dueling on Stamplar, I’ve got arguable the most recognizable one on Xbox NA right now. The class still works, although it is significantly harder to play now, my advice to you, check out Blackrose dual-wield for your backbar, Quick Cloak gives so much as it is, then you add on the 6% damage + 6% mitigation and well…

You just gotta see it to believe it.

Do you go by a different GT in-game? I've come across 1 stamplar this entire campaign (GH) and I am pretty sure it was someone who was trying a build they instantly regretted.
Any other templar I've come across is a jbeamer or healer in a large group.

No, it’s “The Titan Tim” on Xbox NA, and you won’t find me in Cyrodiil as it’s a performance mess, I mostly run Battlegrounds and duel around Davon’s Watch and the DC Undaunted, when performance is good in Cyrodiil, it’s a blast, but when you have to add massive damage to your Backlash to get it to hit slightly less hard than a spammable at the same time, it’s next to impossible when you factor ability delay the likes of which we get in Grayhost.

Nihilr

Crow_IX wrote: »

You've gravely overlooked how important all the mechanics you claim to like or dislike effect end game PvP, all negatively might I add.

For example the hybrid meta really funneled play styles into a really weird spot. Let me tell you right now I see more players running resto back bar than SnB these days. Everyone is running the same 3 or 4 builds because literally all the other sets cannot keep up with the 3-4 builds we have now. As an avid theory crafter, specifically for PvP I can tell you sustain builds and raw damage builds aren't hardly viable. All the hybrid force did was allow all players to run the same high proc damage high damage mitigating builds. When you say you disagree I think you're only taking into the account that you can now slot any set and make it "work" but what you overlooked was the viability of the builds.

Your entire mastery take is focused strictly on PvE which just like the devs, shows much you neglect PvP as part of the game. I don't believe your points would effect PvP i.e. 0 dps gates on bosses, or solo dungeon runs but I just wanted to point out that mastery isn't just understanding dungeon and boss mechanics, but also player/combat mechanics in general. Which have been effected enough by PvE to impact PvE usually for the worse to be frank.

When it comes to mastery let me ask you. In terms of mastery combat, do you think picking and choosing times the times you should light, medium or heavy attack not pertain to skill? Is animation canceling not a mechanical skill that when used by two good players the player who tech flubs the least will often win, which insights skill level and mastery? I cannot stress how much you over look these skills as a mastery mechanic especially in PvP. Personally I don't see it making too much a difference in PvE, sure higher skilled players can dish out high numbers in shorter time maybe but you can get vet trials done regardless of players using advanced tech skill. I've Played this game since release and I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see the skill gap closing more and more because players don't want to learn mechanical tech skill but would rather slot the most powerful sets that do all the damage (not literally but quiet close) for them and just run with more players than the opposing players. PvP is never "perfect repeat attack pattern" the combos change consistently (with as much option as we currently have at least) depending on the situation and how you read it.

I don't like PvP, but my husband plays it while I forage or complete small quests. He enjoys the changes and has only said one thing on the topic about sets last year, loosely: If all PvP was about raw stat sets like during the proc ban, then PvP would be fairly stagnant as it would be even less variety in builds because everyone would have less to choose from. Idk what other players use in PvP, but he dies a lot from all sorts of builds, according to his recap. Mostly because he doesn't build for crit resistance, but he has fun and isn't terrible. I'm still to scared to go into Cyrodil and play with him though. lol His favorite builds are a damage shield build, and a melee stamBlade. Idt I've watched anyone else using his builds either when I watch him play. He isn't fully golded out either.

As far as light, medium, heavy attacks, that gets confusing and no one is told by the in-game system that anything longer than a light attack is a heavy attack, and "medium attack" is anything that isn't a light attack or "fully charged heavy attack." But the game calls "medium attacks" "heavy attacks", and "heavy attacks" "fully charged heavy attacks". Sets that require "exactly light attacks" and not "medium attacks" are the most obnoxious for server lag. The best way to ensure weaving is working is to see a medium charge-up, but medium attacks are weaker. The whole L/M/H attack system is just too finicky and dependent on player and server hardware loading that it shouldn't be a major source of damage. Lag spikes? Can't see the light attack fire? You're hosed. Can't learn what you can't see and correct.

alsonotan0rc

So I can accept that light attack weaving is a major game mechanic, as is rotation. Okay, fine.

Where is light attack weaving taught? (Weaving, not how to light attack.) It's barely mentioned on a single loading screen. No tutorial covers it. No wonder new players burn all their resources on skills and then sit there light attacking with a bow the rest of the fight.

The recommended build feature don't address rotations or buff uptimes. If it's really critical for players to learn rotations (spoiler: it is) to be minimally competent, why isn't there a dps dummy mini-game to teach it? Addons can sort of help, but if you want people to be able to raise their skill level to mastery without addons, you're going to be disappointed in the number of people willing to grind that skill learning out. Poor console. No wonder the end game pop is so small there.

Also, successfully completing vet HM content being solely about "Mastery" is bunk. Optimization is one thing. Virtually requiring a tank to have One Specific Class Skill to complete a boss fight has nothing to do with Mastery. Other content has made it clear that DK isn't supposed to be the only viable tank class, but that Dreadsail fight feels like a switcheroo. That's not fun.

LordDragonMara

Kallykat wrote: »

So, just tell a whole portion of the playerbase they shouldn't play the game? That doesn't seem smart, and it doesn't fall in line with ESO's values. That's like saying to you, "You think the game is too easy? Don't play ESO then. It's not for you."

This game is meant to be played by people at various skill levels. Portions of the game are geared toward those with higher and lower skill levels. ESO is not an FPS game, and if ZOS tried to balance everything the way you suggest, they would lose a large portion of their playerbase. [/quote]

Where did i say that exactly ?
I don't play ESO currently. I quit with the U35.

And one big question where is this playerbase going to get exactly ?

And it's fun that you miss pretty much every genre out there, and just mention the FPS. Every single game is balanced towards the best possible game.
It's the same in the sport. They don't balance the game for the amateurs, they balance it for the PRO players.

FPS games are filled with 99 casuals. But they are the most populated genre currently, if we generalize for FPS to include BR and so on.
Everyone when starts is a casual. But they want to learn, watch the great players and wanna become as good as them.
Eh, just like the sports, and how kids watch the top players, and then with enough hard work and doing the right stuffs, one day become one of them ...

Again Hard means Hard. Trying to make Hard > Easy is straight up wrong.

If you want to be noob in the game(not you, generalizing), then this is on you. There is plenty of Normal content for you to do, as well as the whole story.

LordDragonMara

There is million guides out there, and everyone will tell you what LA weaving is. No MMO is going to teach you to everything. It's going to give you basic direction, and it's up to you.
Animation Canceling is a thing in pretty much every game, and everywhere is accepted as skill mechanics.
And pretty much in every single game i played it's not explained, but it's up to the player to reveal where the skill gap is, and to implement it to his gameplay.

CS:GO, you can reload faster if you do an animation canceling. In Apex Legends you can Swap Weapons faster, if you crouch, and there is weapon reload animation if i'm not wrong again. In Black Desert Online, there is Animation Canceling Combo and a lot harder, actually harder to master mechanics and so.
ESO is probably one of the easiest mechanical wise games out there.

blktauna

I am not understanding how it pays a game company to *** off the people who they need to give them money by not listening to their concerns and feedback. Or indeed even seeming like they would be interested in players concerns and feedback. ZOS is annoyed people aren't doing content yet can't be bothered to teach the basics to the folks that ask for it. No one really knows how damage is calculated, we don't know what sets actually work in no proc, we don't know the order of operations for attacks... And we will never know.

I do not see it as incumbent on a new player to have to go to youtube to learn basic mechanics of a game. That is absolutely the game's responsibility to teach.

Sure people who play a lot of pvp are used to searching out build videos etc but a large portion of ESO playes are not that group. At least tell new players to watch the stream team or something for guidance. If you want players too do content, you need to give them the tools to do it. Just because the figurative you walks through overland, not everyone is you.

alsonotan0rc

LordDragonMara wrote: »

There is million guides out there, and everyone will tell you what LA weaving is....
And pretty much in every single game i played it's not explained, but it's up to the player to reveal where the skill gap is, and to implement it to his gameplay.

(edited at ellipsis)

You missed my point. ZOS keeps talking about raising the player skill "floor." I think a little early handholding with light attack weaving and rotations would do that.

Wouldn't a tutorial--on a gameplay skill everyone's supposed to pick up to be competent--make a lot more sense than homogenizing all the classes (I still hate the major/minor buff system, get off my lawn) and vacillating between nerf/buff meta of the month in a vain effort to get some balance? I'd choose a little obnoxious tutorial over more bad updates every time.

It's cool that you're an animation cancelling whiz kid who's done harder things in other games, though.

NextTuesday

I'd appreciate a tutorial for "DPS don't stand with the tank because they will die" so I don't have to spend RNDs ressing the same person repeatedly.

boi_anachronism_

Nihilr wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

You've gravely overlooked how important all the mechanics you claim to like or dislike effect end game PvP, all negatively might I add.

For example the hybrid meta really funneled play styles into a really weird spot. Let me tell you right now I see more players running resto back bar than SnB these days. Everyone is running the same 3 or 4 builds because literally all the other sets cannot keep up with the 3-4 builds we have now. As an avid theory crafter, specifically for PvP I can tell you sustain builds and raw damage builds aren't hardly viable. All the hybrid force did was allow all players to run the same high proc damage high damage mitigating builds. When you say you disagree I think you're only taking into the account that you can now slot any set and make it "work" but what you overlooked was the viability of the builds.

Your entire mastery take is focused strictly on PvE which just like the devs, shows much you neglect PvP as part of the game. I don't believe your points would effect PvP i.e. 0 dps gates on bosses, or solo dungeon runs but I just wanted to point out that mastery isn't just understanding dungeon and boss mechanics, but also player/combat mechanics in general. Which have been effected enough by PvE to impact PvE usually for the worse to be frank.

When it comes to mastery let me ask you. In terms of mastery combat, do you think picking and choosing times the times you should light, medium or heavy attack not pertain to skill? Is animation canceling not a mechanical skill that when used by two good players the player who tech flubs the least will often win, which insights skill level and mastery? I cannot stress how much you over look these skills as a mastery mechanic especially in PvP. Personally I don't see it making too much a difference in PvE, sure higher skilled players can dish out high numbers in shorter time maybe but you can get vet trials done regardless of players using advanced tech skill. I've Played this game since release and I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see the skill gap closing more and more because players don't want to learn mechanical tech skill but would rather slot the most powerful sets that do all the damage (not literally but quiet close) for them and just run with more players than the opposing players. PvP is never "perfect repeat attack pattern" the combos change consistently (with as much option as we currently have at least) depending on the situation and how you read it.

I don't like PvP, but my husband plays it while I forage or complete small quests. He enjoys the changes and has only said one thing on the topic about sets last year, loosely: If all PvP was about raw stat sets like during the proc ban, then PvP would be fairly stagnant as it would be even less variety in builds because everyone would have less to choose from. Idk what other players use in PvP, but he dies a lot from all sorts of builds, according to his recap. Mostly because he doesn't build for crit resistance, but he has fun and isn't terrible. I'm still to scared to go into Cyrodil and play with him though. lol His favorite builds are a damage shield build, and a melee stamBlade. Idt I've watched anyone else using his builds either when I watch him play. He isn't fully golded out either.

As far as light, medium, heavy attacks, that gets confusing and no one is told by the in-game system that anything longer than a light attack is a heavy attack, and "medium attack" is anything that isn't a light attack or "fully charged heavy attack." But the game calls "medium attacks" "heavy attacks", and "heavy attacks" "fully charged heavy attacks". Sets that require "exactly light attacks" and not "medium attacks" are the most obnoxious for server lag. The best way to ensure weaving is working is to see a medium charge-up, but medium attacks are weaker. The whole L/M/H attack system is just too finicky and dependent on player and server hardware loading that it shouldn't be a major source of damage. Lag spikes? Can't see the light attack fire? You're hosed. Can't learn what you can't see and correct.

So effectively you are talking from second hand experience and you are predominantly a solo player/quester (I don't mean this as a jab but a statement of fact that is important for context) who has absolutely no understanding of the major impact these changes had on the game overall For pvp or for the raid community. You have confused these "improvements" with with reasonable expectation of stable server performance and providing a proper tutorial for it's players. Handicapping intended game styles to try and reduce server load, effective or not, is absolutely insane.

Nihilr

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

So effectively you are talking from second hand experience and you are predominantly a solo player/quester (I don't mean this as a jab but a statement of fact that is important for context) who has absolutely no understanding of the major impact these changes had on the game overall For pvp or for the raid community. You have confused these "improvements" with with reasonable expectation of stable server performance and providing a proper tutorial for it's players. Handicapping intended game styles to try and reduce server load, effective or not, is absolutely insane.

My husband's PvP experience being 2nd hand doesn't change what I witness. PvP still appears pretty alive and bustling, and his crashes and lagouts in Cyrodil are almost completely non-existant. Idk what servers he plays but they seem busy and zone chat isn't complaining about the changes, they're just strategizing. There's a lot of salt for the changes, but the game isn't ruined from what I can tell. People have adapted, and the combat doesn't look worse than before. I'm sensing deeper motives to get the changes to revert, at this point.

boi_anachronism_

Nihilr wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

So effectively you are talking from second hand experience and you are predominantly a solo player/quester (I don't mean this as a jab but a statement of fact that is important for context) who has absolutely no understanding of the major impact these changes had on the game overall For pvp or for the raid community. You have confused these "improvements" with with reasonable expectation of stable server performance and providing a proper tutorial for it's players. Handicapping intended game styles to try and reduce server load, effective or not, is absolutely insane.

My husband's PvP experience being 2nd hand doesn't change what I witness. PvP still appears pretty alive and bustling, and his crashes and lagouts in Cyrodil are almost completely non-existant. Idk what servers he plays but they seem busy and zone chat isn't complaining about the changes, they're just strategizing. There's a lot of salt for the changes, but the game isn't ruined from what I can tell. People have adapted, and the combat doesn't look worse than before. I'm sensing deeper motives to get the changes to revert, at this point.

That's simply not true. If that was the case they would not have pulled so many of the changes. On top of that their stream teams are playing other games, they had a two day conference with the devs a few weeks ago because zos needed for feedback because they were having so many issues with retention. Raid teams disbanded, guilds folded including 2 of mine with over 300 members each, servers closed, esou lost 2/3rds of their leads. Interest is declining across the internet, searches are down and streams from twitch have much less traffic. That is the biggest indicator of issues as no real numbers are released beyond steam which is obviously not the only platform but was also down by a significant margin. Nefas who is one of the best known zos team streamers actually did a comparison showing his viewership from last year to this year at the same time and it was considerable. Pvp has been an ongoing issues which is the reason for the massive re-architecture and cadence change to focus of performance in Q3 of this year. The devs have actively admitted to this being an issue in the past. You can find endless videos on YouTube showing performance issues. I personally left pvp because it was so bad. Your husband is a single person vastly outweighed by the actual statistics on the issue. Sure a few people are lucky but this has been an ongoing issue for years to the point that they actually stated point blank that no pvp content can be added until servers are upgraded and re-architecture has been completed. My motives are for the game to perform the way it should, nothing else inferring otherwise is disingenuous. Denial ain't t just a river in Egypt. Using a single, isolated point of view second hand really gives your opinion no leg to stand on, sorry.

Crow_IX

Nihilr wrote: »

I don't like PvP, but my husband plays it while I forage or complete small quests. He enjoys the changes and has only said one thing on the topic about sets last year, loosely: If all PvP was about raw stat sets like during the proc ban, then PvP would be fairly stagnant as it would be even less variety in builds because everyone would have less to choose from. Idk what other players use in PvP, but he dies a lot from all sorts of builds, according to his recap. Mostly because he doesn't build for crit resistance, but he has fun and isn't terrible. I'm still to scared to go into Cyrodil and play with him though. lol His favorite builds are a damage shield build, and a melee stamBlade. Idt I've watched anyone else using his builds either when I watch him play. He isn't fully golded out either.

As far as light, medium, heavy attacks, that gets confusing and no one is told by the in-game system that anything longer than a light attack is a heavy attack, and "medium attack" is anything that isn't a light attack or "fully charged heavy attack." But the game calls "medium attacks" "heavy attacks", and "heavy attacks" "fully charged heavy attacks". Sets that require "exactly light attacks" and not "medium attacks" are the most obnoxious for server lag. The best way to ensure weaving is working is to see a medium charge-up, but medium attacks are weaker. The whole L/M/H attack system is just too finicky and dependent on player and server hardware loading that it shouldn't be a major source of damage. Lag spikes? Can't see the light attack fire? You're hosed. Can't learn what you can't see and correct.

I don't expect all players to like PvP, it's definitely not for everyone. Here is the thing that is tough for a lot of ESO PvPers, the game has greatly reduced in skill based combat (mastery mechanics) and because of that PvP has become more of a zerg fest, and let explain why running in ball groups does not constitute viable builds. Running in ball groups is definitely a much safer way to play the game as you are able to run less defense since all ball groups have a hand full of healers meaning you can slot all proc damage if you wanted, and you'd still die a bunch I'm sure but a lot less if you're just going pug group vs pug group. As for organized ball groups, well they just run best in slot so they can kite and ulti dump, not really much to say about that. Anywho back to the topic of "build diversity", sure you can run what ever you want but it doesn't make it viable and even then most players will run the same few proc sets mostly due to a majority of the old ones being nerfed and players wanting the most damage possible. Keep in mind I never said nor do I think that proc sets should all be obsolete and PvP should be raw stats, how ever I do think that I should be able to run raw stat and be able to keep up with the proc sets. But this isn't the case. In terms a viability the build should be able to survive and kill in a 1 on 1 situation (assuming both players are avid PvPers). Why is this the case? Because if both players know how to PvP what it boils down to is consistency and knowledge of the game rather than your gear set. Reading your opponent, timing your bursts, keeping up sustain and buffs, this is the skill ceiling. But in the current meta it really is just run the top 3 or 4 builds. It's quiet unfortunate for veteran solo players.

As for light, medium and heavy attacks, no the game does not teach you these things. But that is mastery. Same applies to animation canceling, a not even intended mechanic. Players learn and figure these things out on their own mastering the mechanical skill of the game. Would an indication for medium attacks be good? Yes, I do think that would help a lot of players, but I feel it's simple enough to know the difference on your own with practice. Unfortunately when it comes to game performance it's not just light-heavy attacks that are "finicky", the game if very consistent with skill duds, animation freezes and desyncs. It's way more than just buggy light-heavy attacks.

Can't learn what you can't see and correct.
This is absolutely NOT the case. All skill based games have these mechanics that aren't taught by the game itself. Take for example CS:GO and bhopping or spray pattern control, something that is not taught by the game but people have mastered, and makes for really intense high level play moments. Or consider Super Smash bros Melee, almost all of the mechanics used by high level players weren't even intended, i.e. wave dashing, shield drop, wave lands, jump canceling, and much more but the use of high level tech skill really widens the skill gap which makes the game fun and interesting cause there is so much to learn and is very rewarding when you master the mechanics. The same is applied to ESO when considering animation cancelling and light-heavy attack weaving. So I completely disagree with this statement. It's all about the effort players put into the game to learn and unfortunately most players didn't want to learn and now we are at a point to where they don't really have to.

Styxius

This statement seems contradictory to what's actually been done in game.

Squall8882

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

AJTC5000 wrote: »

Could you please define who "play the way you want" is meant for? Is it really meant for everyone, including the end-game raiding community?

Part of the reason raid teams are so critically optimised, with people forced to play certain roles and/or abilities is because of how overtuned the content is, especially recently.

Take Reef Guardian HM, a fight where a DK tank is king simply because of Magma Shell allowing you to ignore most of the damage. How would a Necro tank compare here, or a NB? I'm not even going to talk about how bottom-of-the-ladder Templar tank is, a class that is supposed to embody the paladin identity and one I would have thought should be second behind DK. Is this the "play the way you want" mantra in practice?

I get that each class should bring something to the table, to have some measure of class identity, a reason to go "Oh, I want to play that class because". But it seems recently you cannot balance that with "play the way you want" in the settings that test the player the most. If that's the way it's intended to be then so be it, but I'd prefer you to outright say that, instead of just repeating the same buzzwords.

As is mentioned above, we recognize that some combinations are going to be more effective than others, but our goal is to ensure every character can protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes in some capacity. Completing Hard Mode content is going to require more skill and an optimized character, and that's where Mastery comes in.

Could there be a look toward improving different set options toward complementing the character that is chosen by the player?

master_vanargand

Now, i think the result is the exact opposite of the ZoS ideal.
Do you understand the grief of Stamina Nightblade, who becomes weaker if you don't use a Concealed Weapon of magicka spam skill?
You removed the Surprise Attack's stun and delete surprise feeling of rogue class, but you say "surprise! have fun."?
Don't confuse bad news with surprises.

Grandsheba

If yall don't put all the nerfs back to how they were with the resource cost, heals back to 1 sec, proc sets being able to combo, dmg back to how it was and anything else yall broke.

Smh, of it was a problem in the past that your fixed don't break it again. The dungeons and trials are not fun at all anymore. Overland is not fun because yall don't touch it but now you took the only content outside pvp and destroyed it and thought it was a good idea?

Fix the bugs, if content is to easy make counters to the "power creep" aoe stuns tha negate armor sets while you're in them, give mobs the ability to buff and heal. Buy don't nerf us anymore. What ever nerf you think you want to put in game, make an enemy type that can do it as a debuff.

Also stop nerfing the whole game for pvp, you have battle spirit! USE IT!

Yall over complicate solutions, id love to come back and play this game but yall keep *** it up every couple months...for years!!!! Read your advertisement comments, read your fourms, read your reviews. Why do yall make the same mistakes. We don't want new content right now, just fix the game! Next update can be bug slayer dlc, where you fix the blocking, fix the sliding across the floor through walls, fix the bar swap bug, fix the instance loading bug, fix the ability bar being stuck and not working bug. Clean house! The latest bug fixed ud running on your horse but id take that over all this mess!

StihlReign

Not bad, not bad. Ok...soo - can we remove block from stamina now? Add it to health and hybridization will be complete. Remove the drain to stamina or add it equally to Mag.

PS Break free feels horrible. Only the CP system can hit it accurately.

You're doing awesome.

faster

Akasha_Mei

It's so hybrid, such a mess, that I quited to play my investment of 2 years in my only toon NB. I'm very busy person in real life, with high responsibility area of work. Don't have time to create lots of toons, just to play in another class.
Class token should be available, at least 1 or 2 times per account.
I knew nothing of the game when I started, chose randomly NB.
So... Trying to be Magblade using a staff, it's getting worse by the time combat metrics change.
In the end, my so wanted joy disappeared.
NB meta, even magic based got WW and 2H.
Such a disappointment, that I decided not to invest my precious time in continuing with main toon.
What 2 years of time worthed? I chose wrong class, I tried to fit it, but the boat started to go against the flow.
There's nothing I can do, then waste more time playing everything again in a second toon with a class well choosen. Will it work? Or that will have so much changes again, that a sorcerer ends better with meele weapons?
I just wound like that people could get fun with new things, but changing this that fast, takes lots of people hours of real life.

Grandsheba

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Today, we’d like to share with you our goals and core values for ESO’s combat system. First, we’d like to address the combat Q&A we mentioned a few months ago. As we were reading over your combat questions, it became apparent that we could better communicate to all of you our vision and core values for combat. Most answers to the combat-related questions of “Why” we have gotten over the past few months are grounded in these core values; we wanted to take a step back and overview these to help shed light on our long-term vision for combat in ESO, which we recognize we should have shared with everyone much sooner.

So, what is our vision for combat in ESO? In a nutshell, we want combat to feel fun and rewarding to all players. We have a wide variety of players with unique interests and motivations for playing, so we recognize that what feels “fun and rewarding” is a little different for everyone. Our goal is to strike a good balance, and just like our community has evolved over time, so has the need to address things that didn’t align with our combat core values. It’s also worth noting that these core values are aspirational, not hard rules or a definition of the current reality; they are the values to which we aspire with combat design and what we strive to meet when considering adjustments to combat in ESO.

With all that said, we’d like to present the core values and vision for ESO’s combat which also includes examples of where these values manifest themselves in combat:

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.

• Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armor
• Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
• "Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.

Active Combat
We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

• Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown
• No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
• Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
• Weapon swapping

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.

• Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
• Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
• Optimizing ability rotations and timing
• Light attack weaving
• Group “builds” and synergies

Elder Scrolls Inspired
The Elder Scrolls has captured the hearts and minds of millions of players over decades, and we strive to honor series traditions. An online multiplayer world presents some unique challenges, constraints and opportunities, but fans of the series should feel a sense of familiarity within our character and combat experience. The lore and mechanics from previous games should serve as an inspiration and, when possible, a foundation for ESO combat.

• Health, Magicka, and Stamina as attributes
• Class selection does not define or constrain role
• Skill lines are discovered, and leveled up by using them
• Many skill lines are staples from previous TES games (ex: Werewolf, Heavy Armor, Mages Guild, etc.)

Ok cool, so why did yall make a new class instead of a new guild skill line comprised of 3 class skill lines? Wouldn't that have been more "Play The Way You Want"
Providing the "strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality."
How can we do that when every new story chapter we are forced to start over if we want to check out a new skill line instead of adopting it into our current characters if we choose to want to play with such "flexibility"? How is this to feel like any past series if you dont use the past series format?

Making new unrestricted game play that provides freedom and allows for tactics means having more options to slot.

[/quote]We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes. [/quote]

How? How can we transform or play how we want if restrictions are constantly being placed instead of countermeasures. You removed proc set combos from the entire game primarily for pvp when you could have just made a debuff to lower the procs via aoe/ stuns like talons, bone totem, globe and ect.

How is exploring rewarding when you don't get anything of any significance? The thevies guild and dark brotherhood, what do those paid for mechanics and passives provide for the rest of the game? You can change build variety with proc set for the entrie game but can't make a skill line viable for the entire game. When is stealth useful in a dungeon for those that want to play as a stealth character? What mech leaves stealth as an option?

When will you expand this "Deck building" mech that The ElderScrolls series is known for and why wasn't that unique style of gameplay something introduced with the arcanist and guild class skills for update 37?

Why are skills so unbalanced in terms of what they provide?
Let's look at some comparable skills for each class and see how balanced and diverse in options they are...

Templar
Restoring focus: Create a rune of celestial protection and gain Major Resolve for 20 seconds, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5948. You also recover 242 Stamina every 1 second over the duration. Standing within the rune heals you for 959 Health every 1 second, which scales off your Max Health.

Blazing Shield: Surround yourself with solar rays, granting a damage shield that absorbs up to 4800 damage for 6 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your Max Health. Each nearby enemy increases the shield's strength by 4% when the shield is activated. When the shield expires it explodes outward, dealing 30% of the damage it absorbed to nearby enemies.

Living Dark: Envelop yourself in a lightless sphere for 10 seconds to protect yourself. Anytime you take direct damage, the sphere lashes back at the attacker, reducing their movement speed by 40% for 3 seconds and healing you for 2066 Health. These effects can occur once every half second.

Warden

Crystallized Slab: Spin a shield of ice around you, absorbing up to 24791 damage from 3 projectiles. Each time you absorb a projectile you restore 831 Magicka and launch an icy bolt back at the enemy, dealing 1799 Frost Damage and stunning them for 3 seconds.

Ice Fortress: Wrap a thick cloak of ice around you and your allies. The ice grants Major Resolve, increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 5948 for 25 seconds. You gain Minor Protection, reducing your damage taken by 5% for 25 seconds.

Leeching Vines: Grow vines to embrace you or the lowest health ally in front of you for 10 seconds. The vines heal the target for 718 Health each time they take damage. This effect can occur once every 1 second. The vines apply Minor Lifesteal to enemies that damage the target for 10 seconds, healing you and your allies for 600 Health every 1 second when damaging that enemy.

Nightblade

Shadowy disguise: Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. Your next direct damage attack used within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike. (This is the strongest armor in pvp, since you cant be hit. Not much for pve)

Mirage: Surround yourself in a phantasmic aura to gain Major Evasion and Minor Resolve, reducing damage from area attacks by 20% and increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 2974 for 20 seconds. While active, taking direct damage reduces the cost of your next Roll Dodge by 10%, up to a maximum of 100%. This effect can stack up to once every half second.


Sorcerer

Hurricane: Manifest yourself as pure air, buffeting nearby enemies with wind dealing 238 Physical Damage every 1 second for 20 seconds. The winds grow in damage and size, increasing up to 160% more damage and up to 9 meters in size. While in this form you gain Major Resolve and Minor Expedition, increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 5948 and your Movement Speed by 15%.

Empowered ward: Conjure globes of Daedric energy for protection, granting a damage shield for you and your pets that absorbs 3718 damage for 10 seconds. Damage shield strength scales off your Max Magicka and is capped at 50% of your Max Health. Also grants Minor Intellect and Minor Endurance to you and nearby allies, increasing your Magicka and Stamina Recovery by 15% for 10 seconds

Bound aegis: Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion, creating a suit of Daedric mail that increases your block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds and Minor Protection for 20 seconds, reducing your damage taken by 5%. While slotted, your Max Magicka is increased by 8% and you gain Minor Resolve, increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 2974.

Dragonknights

Hardened armor: Release your inner Dragon to gain Major Resolve, increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 5948 for 20 seconds. You gain a damage shield that absorbs up to 5121 damage for 6 seconds, scaling off your Max Health. While active, the armor returns 1 Magic Damage to any enemy that uses a direct damage attack against you in melee range, scaling off your Physical and Spell Resistance.

Protective plate: Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations for 4 seconds.

Necromancers

Resistant flesh: Sacrifice your own power to repair damaged flesh, healing you or an ally in front of you for 3600 Health but applying Minor Defile to yourself for 4 seconds, reducing your healing received and Health Recovery by 8%. You grant the target Spell and Physical Resistance equal to half the amount healed for 3 seconds.

summoners armor:
Wrap yourself in hardened bone, granting you Major Resolve, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5948 for 20 seconds. While active, reduce the cost of Blastbones, Skeletal Mage, and Spirit Mender by 15%. Creates a corpse when the effect completes.

[/quote]We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armorSlot abilities from any skill line you've discovered"Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.[/quote]

Load up the game and play every class agaisnt each other for both pvp and pve, use only the class skills then come back to us. Just reading game reports isn't going to help you need to know you're own game and how it performs in the moment. Just try it. The tip performing classes in the game are Dragon knights in first place and Templars in second place, raise every other class to that standard and start adding guild classes instead of restricted classes if you want to promote "play how you want" gameplay.

Jaraal

Grandsheba wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Today, we’d like to share with you our goals and core values for ESO’s combat system. First, we’d like to address the combat Q&A we mentioned a few months ago. As we were reading over your combat questions, it became apparent that we could better communicate to all of you our vision and core values for combat. Most answers to the combat-related questions of “Why” we have gotten over the past few months are grounded in these core values; we wanted to take a step back and overview these to help shed light on our long-term vision for combat in ESO, which we recognize we should have shared with everyone much sooner.

So, what is our vision for combat in ESO? In a nutshell, we want combat to feel fun and rewarding to all players. We have a wide variety of players with unique interests and motivations for playing, so we recognize that what feels “fun and rewarding” is a little different for everyone. Our goal is to strike a good balance, and just like our community has evolved over time, so has the need to address things that didn’t align with our combat core values. It’s also worth noting that these core values are aspirational, not hard rules or a definition of the current reality; they are the values to which we aspire with combat design and what we strive to meet when considering adjustments to combat in ESO.

With all that said, we’d like to present the core values and vision for ESO’s combat which also includes examples of where these values manifest themselves in combat:

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.

• Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armor
• Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
• "Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.

Active Combat
We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

• Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown
• No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
• Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
• Weapon swapping

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.

• Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
• Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
• Optimizing ability rotations and timing
• Light attack weaving
• Group “builds” and synergies

Elder Scrolls Inspired
The Elder Scrolls has captured the hearts and minds of millions of players over decades, and we strive to honor series traditions. An online multiplayer world presents some unique challenges, constraints and opportunities, but fans of the series should feel a sense of familiarity within our character and combat experience. The lore and mechanics from previous games should serve as an inspiration and, when possible, a foundation for ESO combat.

• Health, Magicka, and Stamina as attributes
• Class selection does not define or constrain role
• Skill lines are discovered, and leveled up by using them
• Many skill lines are staples from previous TES games (ex: Werewolf, Heavy Armor, Mages Guild, etc.)

Ok cool, so why did yall make a new class instead of a new guild skill line comprised of 3 class skill lines? Wouldn't that have been more "Play The Way You Want"

Because new skills for existing characters means there's no temptation to buy riding lessons, Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Undaunted, Psijic, Skyshards, fully leveled werewolf/ vampire, and so forth for the new character you're forced to roll with a new class. Also why you'll never see class change tokens available.

yadibroz

Can you add a new staff if can't add a new weapon

Akasha_Mei

Since you invented that Dummy ***, people judge your development by the highest damage you get. That's soooo stupid.
Dummy is like training on a punching bag, totally inert, standing in on spot, it doesn't make you any damage.
In the field is different, you need care about you health, you have multiple moving targets and lots of AoE attacks.
Soooo... What misjuding gadjet created... Hum... Dummies are for dumbs.

colossalvoids

Akasha_Mei wrote: »

Since you invented that Dummy ***, people judge your development by the highest damage you get. That's soooo stupid.
Dummy is like training on a punching bag, totally inert, standing in on spot, it doesn't make you any damage.
In the field is different, you need care about you health, you have multiple moving targets and lots of AoE attacks.
Soooo... What misjuding gadjet created... Hum... Dummies are for dumbs.

People were measuring their dps way before any dummies hit the game. Nothing have changed in that regard. And if someone can't perform okay on a stationary target, good luck doing anything at all in an actual encounter, pretty simple.

bachpain

Personally I am never going to bother with any of the combat mechanics(weaving, rotation, barswapping, etc), as I feel it is too much work. And work is the last thing a game needs, in my opinion.

And you are right that vet/hm dungeons and trials do not require perfect or even high DPS, but the thing is, they do. Let me explain: At this moment there isn't a trialfinder available, meaning basically the only way to do (vet) trial content is through guilds. Guilds who set these crazy high requirements. So even though there isn't a requirement, technically there is a high minimum requirement because of (most) guilds. And for veteran/hm dungeons, if you do not have high enough DPS, you will get kicked. Combine that with players having unrealistically high expectations, and you have an endgame barely anyone runs. Or barely anyone can run/wants to run.

And yes, I do feel players should be able to clear vet/hm content without any "work". Hence the request for "crutch-mechanics". You can't seriously expect new players to stay with the game, if the first thing they hear is: "To play this game, you have to work on point a, b, c, and d, for many hours". This is an unreal expectation, as this will chase away almost any player. I love the game, and even I am not going to bother with any of that. Add to that the horrible group experiences with speedrunners plus fake roles, makes the choice for new players to stay with this game even smaller.

In my opinion, any player who wants to participate in any content, should be able to participate in that content. Atleast in PvE.

That is the whole reason for difficulty levels. Veteren and Hard Mode = a greater challenge hence a greater reward and satisfaction for getting there. Now the way to get there might be through learning mechanics (work) or getting better at DPS/healing (work) but it will take work. I do get the disparity between the normal and vet difficulties of DLC content. I remember well wishing there was a middle ground. But in the end perseverance and working at it will pay off.

Drako_Ei

I am surprised racial passives are not being mentioned.

Right now there is a huge gap in performance in racial passives, play how you want? Let us customize the racial passives.

Let us be a nord trained as an orc
Let us be a bosmer following the way of the khajiit

Let us play what we want with out committing ourselves to drastically underpeform against other races.

This is what personally hinders my experience from this game, becoming attatched to your characters is what keeps me playing a game.

If we need to change our race every now and then it just makes me want to quit.

Give us racial skill swap token! I will pay!

Ramzdonb16_ESO

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Today, we’d like to share with you our goals and core values for ESO’s combat system. First, we’d like to address the combat Q&A we mentioned a few months ago. As we were reading over your combat questions, it became apparent that we could better communicate to all of you our vision and core values for combat. Most answers to the combat-related questions of “Why” we have gotten over the past few months are grounded in these core values; we wanted to take a step back and overview these to help shed light on our long-term vision for combat in ESO, which we recognize we should have shared with everyone much sooner.

So, what is our vision for combat in ESO? In a nutshell, we want combat to feel fun and rewarding to all players. We have a wide variety of players with unique interests and motivations for playing, so we recognize that what feels “fun and rewarding” is a little different for everyone. Our goal is to strike a good balance, and just like our community has evolved over time, so has the need to address things that didn’t align with our combat core values. It’s also worth noting that these core values are aspirational, not hard rules or a definition of the current reality; they are the values to which we aspire with combat design and what we strive to meet when considering adjustments to combat in ESO.

With all that said, we’d like to present the core values and vision for ESO’s combat which also includes examples of where these values manifest themselves in combat:

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.

• Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armor
• Slot abilities from any skill line you've discovered
• "Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.

Active Combat
We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.

• Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown
• No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown
• Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception
• Weapon swapping

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.

• Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points
• Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)
• Optimizing ability rotations and timing
• Light attack weaving
• Group “builds” and synergies

Elder Scrolls Inspired
The Elder Scrolls has captured the hearts and minds of millions of players over decades, and we strive to honor series traditions. An online multiplayer world presents some unique challenges, constraints and opportunities, but fans of the series should feel a sense of familiarity within our character and combat experience. The lore and mechanics from previous games should serve as an inspiration and, when possible, a foundation for ESO combat.

• Health, Magicka, and Stamina as attributes
• Class selection does not define or constrain role
• Skill lines are discovered, and leveled up by using them
• Many skill lines are staples from previous TES games (ex: Werewolf, Heavy Armor, Mages Guild, etc.)

Over the course of ESO’s development, we've used these values as our guiding principles, along with feedback from the community and hard data metrics. Outside of some outstanding combat bugs, we believe taking all these into account has now gotten combat in a better place, where ESO is more enjoyable for a variety of playstyles. Much of the work we’ve done over the past few years – such as updating the Champion Point system and the hybridization work – has vastly improved build options, gameplay variety and build equality, which supports several of our values. We know it hasn't always been easy and we sincerely appreciate everyone giving their feedback and spending their time in Tamriel over the years.

Keep an eye out next month for an overview of what to expect in Update 37 as it relates to combat. Again, thank you all for your continued passion and enjoyment of ESO. We'll see you on the field!

Hey is there anyway to see these hard data metrics?

blktauna

lol, no

Woodenplank

React wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Much of the work we’ve done over the past few years – such as updating the Champion Point system and the hybridization work – has vastly improved build options, gameplay variety and build equality, which supports several of our values.

The endgame community almost unanimously agrees that Hybridization damaged build diversity and variety. More people are using the exact same abilities on their bars, and the exact same weapon types. Where there used to be "12" different classes in eso, one mag and stam variant of each class that played distinctly differently, now there is really only 7 (hybrid of every class, and magicka sorcerer which is dying for updates). For me personally, this has killed replayability in pvp - all of my classes have very clear "best in slot" hybrid playstyles that vastly outperform the non-hybrid variants, while being very homogenized in terms of abilities & sets.

Everything this person said, but especially this.
Why would any Dragonknight (stam or mag) pick Burning Embers over Venomous Claw now, when the latter deals so much more damage?
Changing my Stamplar to a Magplar DD I had to: Swap +Stamina Glyphs to +Magicka, replace Biting Jabs with Puncturing Sweep (to afford it as spamable). And everything else; the remaining 11 abilities on my bars and every set bonus remained the same.
Even in PVP, which has always seen more interplay of Mag and Stam abilities (Sorcs have always slotted Streak for utility, Volatile Armor was the Major Resolve source for mag and stam DKs, etc), the change has been palpable. When I came up against a Dragonknight I had to assess whether they were physical or magical oriented, and adjust accordingly to the different dangers and weaknesses. Now; it's just "Another Dragonknight."

Itemization has also grown more stale. Pillar of Nirn and Relequen? You're good to go on litterally any class with any attribute specialization. Gold that stuff out and GG.
Hybridization has been so big for ZOS that they'll never roll it back, I don't think. But I sure hope they take many initiatives in the future to diversify builds and playstyles. Between different Classes but markedly also within Classes themselves.

RaptorRodeoGod

It'd be cool if they did a core combat values on the classes, how they're supposed to feel, and how each skill line the class has accomplishes that goal. It'd be nice if they did it for other skill lines as well, such as werewolf, vampire, and the weapon skills.

Destai

Woodenplank wrote: »

React wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Much of the work we’ve done over the past few years – such as updating the Champion Point system and the hybridization work – has vastly improved build options, gameplay variety and build equality, which supports several of our values.

The endgame community almost unanimously agrees that Hybridization damaged build diversity and variety. More people are using the exact same abilities on their bars, and the exact same weapon types. Where there used to be "12" different classes in eso, one mag and stam variant of each class that played distinctly differently, now there is really only 7 (hybrid of every class, and magicka sorcerer which is dying for updates). For me personally, this has killed replayability in pvp - all of my classes have very clear "best in slot" hybrid playstyles that vastly outperform the non-hybrid variants, while being very homogenized in terms of abilities & sets.

Everything this person said, but especially this.
Why would any Dragonknight (stam or mag) pick Burning Embers over Venomous Claw now, when the latter deals so much more damage?
Changing my Stamplar to a Magplar DD I had to: Swap +Stamina Glyphs to +Magicka, replace Biting Jabs with Puncturing Sweep (to afford it as spamable). And everything else; the remaining 11 abilities on my bars and every set bonus remained the same.
Even in PVP, which has always seen more interplay of Mag and Stam abilities (Sorcs have always slotted Streak for utility, Volatile Armor was the Major Resolve source for mag and stam DKs, etc), the change has been palpable. When I came up against a Dragonknight I had to assess whether they were physical or magical oriented, and adjust accordingly to the different dangers and weaknesses. Now; it's just "Another Dragonknight."

Itemization has also grown more stale. Pillar of Nirn and Relequen? You're good to go on litterally any class with any attribute specialization. Gold that stuff out and GG.
Hybridization has been so big for ZOS that they'll never roll it back, I don't think. But I sure hope they take many initiatives in the future to diversify builds and playstyles. Between different Classes but markedly also within Classes themselves.

I feel this. On one hand it's nice, I can target one gear set and pass it between toons. I know that's the generally BIS gear set up and work towards that. But, like you're saying, it takes away any incentive to find different playstyles.

Right now, I play 3 of my toons. My warden, my templar, and dragonknight. All of them use PoN, Zaan, and Relequen/Depths. I was experimenting with some different weapons and found I only needed to change 2 or 3 (at most) skills. So my bow/bow templar or DK is practically the same as the standard DW setup aside from that spammable.

I used to have multiple characters that I played, now I have no reason to. Templars especially - I don't see a reason to play anything other than my stamplar. I can only use some variant of puncturing sweeps. There's no other class spammable that I know of. It'd be nice if there were some magic oriented like Vampire's Bane. And even with DKs, you're spot on. I'm just switching the attributes and the relevant gear enchanments, the rest is the same.

I appreciate the simplicity now, and being able to reserve my main attribute for my spammable only. But, it's come at the cost of enjoying my other classes that I once had a vision for.