ESO+ just lost a significant amount of value

redlink1979

"Amount of value loss" it's subjective, at the end of the day it will all depend on the purpose someone subcribes for.

BlueRaven

Molydeus wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

Uhhm...this is probably the worst take on ESO+ that I've ever read. You get infinite bag space, all expansions, dlc's, dungeons except for the latest expansion. You also get 1650 crowns each month, discount on some crown items, 10% XP boost, double bank space.

I don't think I've ever disagreed with something this much before regarding this game. You get an INSANE amount of value for ESO+.

Title of thread is;

“ ESO+ just lost a significant amount of value”

Title of thread is not;

“ESO+ just lost all of its value”

But it didn't lose a significant amount of it's value. That's the point. ESO+ had a massive amount of value and still has a massive amount of value. The OP is being dramatic, ESO+ is still every bit as valuable as it used to be.

You subscribe to a service that supplies W, X, Y, and Z services.

You get a letter that suggests it's cutting back on Z a bit.

"So what." You think, "I get it for W, X, and Y."

Well maybe others get it for Z? Is that really so hard to conceive?

Another example is you buy a burger and fries at a fast food establishment.

You get the burger, but you get a small set fries.

Another customer complains about the small fries. Do you turn around and go; "Well I bought it for the burger, so it's still a good value"?

Just because it is not important TO YOU, does not mean it is not important to other people.

EDIT: I don't understand this thread. ESO+ subscribers appear to be getting less for their subscription money next year, they are allowed to complain about that. I don't understand how this is even a controversy. We are 5 pages in and we are arguing this point?

If they cut down on the amount of crowns we receive, is the community supposed to respond "Well I just have it for the craft bag?" We are consumers, stand up for yourself.

AzuraFan

BlueRaven wrote: »

EDIT: I don't understand this thread. ESO+ subscribers appear to be getting less for their subscription money next year, they are allowed to complain about that. I don't understand how this is even a controversy. We are 5 pages in and we are arguing this point?

If they cut down on the amount of crowns we receive, is the community supposed to respond "Well I just have it for the craft bag?" We are consumers, stand up for yourself.

I don't get it, either. I said up-thread that there seems to be something weird about the gamer mentality that leads to some players always giving gaming companies a pass. This is especially true of MMO players. Is it some sense of misguided loyalty? Is is not wanting to admit that the company behind the game they love sees them as numbers/consumers, and nothing more? I have no idea because I treat gaming companies like I treat any other company or service.

Someone made a fair point up-thread that they promised access to all DLCs but didn't specify a number per year. So strictly speaking, the perk remains the same. That's true. But ZOS set up an expectation of a certain number of DLCs per year and now they're scaling it back. I've only been an ESO+ subscriber for about 18 months, but I believe they've scaled back in other areas too. The only thing they never scale back is the price.

I'll reserve judgement until January, but I'm not expecting them to add anything to ESO+ to compensate for one less dungeon DLC and one less story DLC a year. Last year they gave away the Q4 DLC without giving a crap about how it shafted ESO+ subscribers, and this year they tossed us a non-combat pet to make up for giving the Q4 DLC away again. So I think they're expecting those ESO+ subscribers who value those DLCs above some of the other perks to just suck it up again and keep handing them money.

I hope they prove me wrong in the January reveal.

Troodon80

While I originally invested in ESO Plus primarily for the Craft Bag, double bank space, and furniture limits, I've also enjoyed the four dungeons per year. Now it will apparently be two dungeons. We also only have speculation as to how large the main chapter area will be, if it will incorporate the usual Q4 area into the Q2 chapter area, or if they'll have something else to replace the two missing dungeons. We also don't know if there will be a trial in the Q2 chapter, as there typically is, since that wasn't even mentioned.

While I would consider ESO Plus to still be good value, I definitely agree that ESO Plus has lost some value according to my interpretation of the article. I hope they've factored this in to either the pricing or in the delivery of crowns or scope of content for Q2. Only one way to know, but they're not going to talk about it until January.

TaSheen

It is concerning. I've canceled 3 annual subs. What I do next will depend on what the "reveal" shows me.

whitecrow

I haven't even done 3 of this year's dungeons yet so it's kind of a non-issue for me.

Amottica

me_ming wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

We used to get new content every quarter, so those that subbed for a year would have something new to do every quarter, and now we're not.

This is false. And in case you didn't read (or chose to ignore) what veteran players have been saying on this thread, ESO+ started with only IC (which launched, I believe, a month after ESO+ was integrated in the game) and then Orsinium, November 2015. We did not get Dark Brotherhood until May of 2016. So if you think about it, when ESO+ first launched we got 2 dungeons, 2 new zones and 1 or 2 DLC storylines. It was not until Morrowind that we got content as how you outlined it (1 system, 1 chapter, 4 dungeons, 1 story DLC). That's more or less, 2 years after ESO+ became a thing in ESO. And frankly, I rather have them update systems/features that are base game stuff where I don't need to pay to access them.

One thing OP is failing to see is that the only way you loose value with your ESO+ sub is when you stop gaining access to previous DLC/Chapters and systems. Also wouldn't it better if they just stop for a while, and instead of releasing content that's bugged or game breaking they catch up with fixes and balancing issues? I'd rather have that than another broken content release where some people can't even open their game for weeks-- THAT I think is when you really loose value of your ESO+ sub.

You are correct about how the early content above the base game was released. I also agree to an extent that the Q3 bug fix patch adds value to the game since we do have enough bugs that are a detraction from the game and should get rectified.

Amottica

AzuraFan wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Then we have an undeniable value increase in the game if Q3 actually brings an increase in the overall bug fixes. Players have actually asked for this.

True, but EVERYBODY will benefit from that. It won't be exclusive to ESO+ subscribers, therefore to say that switching out a DLC for bug fixes means it all balances out for ESO+ isn't correct.

For me, though, I'm taking the point on board to wait and see if they announce any changes to ESO+ in January, when they give us more details.

and I pretty much specifically noted that the bug fix is a value increase in the game. I did not even try to suggest it was specific to ESO+. Not sure how that comment was thought to be directed to ESO+.

Turtle_Bot

BlueRaven wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

Uhhm...this is probably the worst take on ESO+ that I've ever read. You get infinite bag space, all expansions, dlc's, dungeons except for the latest expansion. You also get 1650 crowns each month, discount on some crown items, 10% XP boost, double bank space.

I don't think I've ever disagreed with something this much before regarding this game. You get an INSANE amount of value for ESO+.

Title of thread is;

“ ESO+ just lost a significant amount of value”

Title of thread is not;

“ESO+ just lost all of its value”

But it didn't lose a significant amount of it's value. That's the point. ESO+ had a massive amount of value and still has a massive amount of value. The OP is being dramatic, ESO+ is still every bit as valuable as it used to be.

You subscribe to a service that supplies W, X, Y, and Z services.

You get a letter that suggests it's cutting back on Z a bit.

"So what." You think, "I get it for W, X, and Y."

Well maybe others get it for Z? Is that really so hard to conceive?

Another example is you buy a burger and fries at a fast food establishment.

You get the burger, but you get a small set fries.

Another customer complains about the small fries. Do you turn around and go; "Well I bought it for the burger, so it's still a good value"?

Just because it is not important TO YOU, does not mean it is not important to other people.

EDIT: I don't understand this thread. ESO+ subscribers appear to be getting less for their subscription money next year, they are allowed to complain about that. I don't understand how this is even a controversy. We are 5 pages in and we are arguing this point?

If they cut down on the amount of crowns we receive, is the community supposed to respond "Well I just have it for the craft bag?" We are consumers, stand up for yourself.

This is the issue with stating this at this point in time though as it means nothing unless they fail to deliver on their promises for 2023.

1. the Q2 chapter needs to have a larger storyline that has content equivalent to the current Q2 + Q4 releases.
2. the Q3 bug fixes and QoL improvements need to be implemented and produce tangible, long term results.
3. the Q4 system needs to add something to the game that will provide new content and/or improve older content in a meaningful way.

So for your W, X, Y, Z example, it would be more like:
You subscribe to a service that grants W, X, Y and Z, then they change it such that Z is now part of X and what used to be Z will now be replaced with S, also Y will be replaced with R to ensure that W, X, Z and S all work properly and don't create issues that prevent W, X, Z and S from being accessible at all.
The only people who would be losing out in this situation are those who got it exclusively only for Y and at that point, why would they spend so much more money overall across the year for everything else as well as Y when they could have bought Y on its own for much cheaper if that is why they had the subscription.

For your other burger example:
Currently, you get a burger and fries, but instead of being forced to buy the burger and fries as separate items on the menu as it is under the current system, you instead now get both of them as 1 single meal for potentially only the price of the burger, then on top of this, you are also being given a meal that is made with higher quality ingredients and less wrong ingredients and can now get a drink as well.
Is it right that the person who ordered both the burger and the fries, for the fries only gets to decide how the entire meal should be sold to everyone over every other customer that wanted the burger, fries and the potential drink?
Should they be allowed to say, well it matters to me because I wanted the fries and don't care about the burger or the drink, despite 99% of the rest of the customers wanted the burger, the fries and the drink.

As many have stated already, there is no point trying to paint a definitive picture either way on this issue. We need to wait and see what they say in the global announcement in January to get any idea if we might be losing any value at all and even then, it's highly unlikely that any value will truly be lost as long as they actually deliver on their promised schedule, that I outlined above, that replaces the current schedule of 2 dungeon dlcs and 1 chapter divided up into 2 parts.

TL//DR: As long as they deliver on the bug fixes and QoL improvements, the chapter doesn't skimp out and actually includes what the secondary dlc zone added, and the new system makes up for the loss of the second set of dungeons then no value is being lost, value is likely instead being gained.
But we need to wait and see if they actually deliver on their promises this time or not. Trying to paint a definitive picture with the current (lack of) information we have, isn't going to help things.

Hotdog_23

My thoughts,

One side is we are getting less value, which I agree with, vs. the other side who see we are not getting less value, and they are happy about it because they don’t see less value.

All the purposed value of plus is really a gated problem that ZOS themselves have created to create value. The unlimited craft bag, extra bank space, along with extra housing room is all restricted by ZOS on purpose to sell back to the players.

It has been said that they have made more money on ESO than all the other Elder Scrolls games. Look how many different times and ways they have released Skyrim. I am sure many nice bonuses have been giving out in return for all the said success, which hey it is deserved.

Just don’t expect me to be happy they are proposing less this year for the same price vs. the last 5 years.

Quarter one, two new dungeons.

Quarter 2, new chapter. Pretty sure we will have to purchase it. Personally, I am fine with buying it,

Quarter 3, Two less dungeons just fixes and QOL improvements. Which let's be honest, it’s something they should be doing anyway. No pass here from me for doing what you should have already been doing in the first place all along. Less value.

Quarter four, no zone DLC. New system, which has been including the last several years in the chapter or DLC release in the fourth quarter. Less value.

Maybe the QOL improvements and new system will be mind-blowing great, and all our dreams come true. But I have been here long enough to know to take the annual Director letter with a huge grain of salt. It is mostly a PR letter trying to sell us hope/hype for next year and how they are going to do better and fix the game. Basically, the same letter year to year.

Me, I see less value, so auto-renew stopped. No more crowns purchased. In waiting mode. I need to see the proof now and no longer hear about the promise of it. If ZOS wants any more of my money, I need to see the value and not the promise of it.

Stay safe

spartaxoxo

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

1. the Q2 chapter needs to have a larger storyline that has content equivalent to the current Q2 + Q4 releases.
2. the Q3 bug fixes and QoL improvements need to be implemented and produce tangible, long term results.
3. the Q4 system needs to add something to the game that will provide new content and/or improve older content in a meaningful way.

1. They already said it will not have the same amount of quests. Their goal was to reduce handcrafted quests in favor of repeatable activities. We don't know what that activity will be, but we know there will less development time being spent on the story.

2. Bug fixes are supposed to be happening regardless.

3. No argument there

Turtle_Bot

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

1. the Q2 chapter needs to have a larger storyline that has content equivalent to the current Q2 + Q4 releases.
2. the Q3 bug fixes and QoL improvements need to be implemented and produce tangible, long term results.
3. the Q4 system needs to add something to the game that will provide new content and/or improve older content in a meaningful way.

1. They already said it will not have the same amount of quests. Their goal was to reduce handcrafted quests in favor of repeatable activities. We don't know what that activity will be, but we know there will less development time being spent on the story.

2. Bug fixes are supposed to be happening regardless.

3. No argument there

1. it's true they said that, but they also said that they would be consolidating the story such that the Q4 zone would be included in the Q2 chapter moving forward instead of being separated out across 2 DLC's like they have been doing for the past few years and making the story for that chapter part of another larger overarching story that runs for multiple years.

2. true, they should be happening regardless, but if it also means that many of the common QoL features from addons get included in the actual game itself to improve the QoL parity between console and pc.

Like I said, we just don't know enough to 100% know if the value is going to remain or not, if it doesn't then I 100% agree that the pricing or additional value needs to be considered, I just want to see what happens before jumping to conclusions in either direction.

The reveal in January will be a good indicator, but the real tell will be probably around Q2 or Q3 and we can see if they deliver on their promises of the directors letter and hopefully we start to hear more about the new system they have mentioned.

spartaxoxo

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

1. the Q2 chapter needs to have a larger storyline that has content equivalent to the current Q2 + Q4 releases.
2. the Q3 bug fixes and QoL improvements need to be implemented and produce tangible, long term results.
3. the Q4 system needs to add something to the game that will provide new content and/or improve older content in a meaningful way.

1. They already said it will not have the same amount of quests. Their goal was to reduce handcrafted quests in favor of repeatable activities. We don't know what that activity will be, but we know there will less development time being spent on the story.

2. Bug fixes are supposed to be happening regardless.

3. No argument there

1. it's true they said that, but they also said that they would be consolidating the story such that the Q4 zone would be included in the Q2 chapter moving forward instead of being separated out across 2 DLC's like they have been doing for the past few years and making the story for that chapter part of another larger overarching story that runs for multiple years.

1. The Q2 part of the Q4 story is usually like 3-4 quests out the entire zone. So, the number of quests should be reduced but the quality of the story will presumably be increased.
2. Sure, but those won't be perks to plus. Fixes and QOL already was a base game, not a plus feature. The overall game might improve, but plus itself can't really be improved by something not part of it. It's possible the Q4 system will make up for it.

James-Wayne

Why not a discount on in game items paid with gold or AP or a discount on crown/endeavour/gem store related items.

Why not offer special in-game ESO Plus vendors that sell things like crafting materials, the grind for housing mats is absurd.... oh wait this might be considered pay to win, eh I would still love something like that with ESO Plus.

me_ming

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

This is false. And in case you didn't read (or chose to ignore) what veteran players have been saying on this thread, ESO+ started with only IC (which launched, I believe, a month after ESO+ was integrated in the game) and then Orsinium, November 2015. We did not get Dark Brotherhood until May of 2016.

No. It isn't. Morrowind released in 2017. It's now 2022. We have consistently been getting content every quarter in the past for the past 5 years in fairly regular release intervals.

Beyond that...

Q1 is generally Jan, Feb, March
Q2 is generally April, May, June
Q3 is generally July, August, September
Q4 is generally October, November, December



Imperial City released Q3 for 2015 (August)

Orsinium released Q4 for 2015 (November)

The following quarter goes back to Q1...

And Thieves Guild released Q1 (Mar 2016)

And Dark Brotherhood released Q2 (May 2016)

Shadows of the Hist released Q3 (August 2016}

One Tamriel released in Q4 of 2016 (October 2016)

Which is basically considered the relaunch of the game, with us getting on the current content cadence for the last 5 years in Q2 of 2017.

Q1 (released in February 2017) was just adjustments to the game and new system (housing) after what was essentially a reboot of the entire game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Patch/2.7.5

And finally Q2 put us on the official chapter + dlc quarterly content cadence we have now.


https://bethesda.net/en/article/YAdmsTy0ISEG0YSqgOSSs/the-elder-scrolls-online-one-tamriel-launch
https://eso-hub.com/en/dlc

So while, IMP City and Orsinium came out in 2015, while TG and DB came out in 2016, they were still all within a roughly 1 year time period of quarterly releases beginning with IMP city. It just wasn't formally called chapter and dlc yet. ZOS themselves sells this content as a bundle because of that. They discount it during their year one event. Because it represents the first year-long time period of dlc content, even though it technically happened during 2 different calendar years.

https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-year-one-event/

Did they skip a bit after they started putting out true DLCs (first up being IMP city) because they had to essentially soft relaunch the whole game? Yes.

But, the pattern of releases has been remarkably consistent since 2017. And was already informally following a very similar structure since 2015.

Yes, it IS false. I mean, you outlined it yourself. Content release was never what you were used too. IC and Orsinium were still on different years. You can't just come here and say, "well, I'll group them together because that's how I want to see it". That's not how the world works. They are of different years, and were most likely not planned to go together. For one, at that time they probably didn't even plan to release a 2 DLC dungeon, 1 Chapter, 1 storyline scheme yet. There was no "pattern" yet. And again, the company is legally allowed to change that "pattern" whenever they want to, as per terms and conditions, which you and everyone of us who are playing this game, agreed too.

Now to your point of them "relaunching" the game-- been playing since pre-Tamriel Unlimited, never heard any of the devs saying "re-launching" the game, but for the sake of argument, let's just say they are. Then they probably are "re-launching" it now again, since a lot of people are obviously not interested anymore of the same 2 DLC dungeons, 1 Chapter, 1 storyline DLC that YOU are used too. So what's the problem here? Again, you're not loosing your ESO+ value, because you're not loosing your access to any of the previous DLCs/Chapters or the systems/features that came along with it. You're not even loosing any of your perks. The promise was to get access to the DLCs, not to get a new one as how you are used to getting them-- or is there something that I am missing here?

The only time I can say that my ESO+ value has lost any significant value is come next year and Q3 and 4 promises are not met. Because what the hell, am I paying ESO+ for when they're not doing anything in those times? But that is yet TBD.

The promise was "subscribe to ESO+ and get every DLC free".

This was twisted after a while by "Oh, but this release is a 'chapter', not a DLC so you don't get it for free with ESO+. Here, have a craft bag."

Mainly because, as I've said before, Wrothgar was too good! It had been in preparation for years, and they realized they couldn't afford to bring similar content out on a yearly basis.

But when I pay for a "chapter" - basically a new issue of the game with a bit added, I'd like them to roll in the bug fixes for the issues from the previous "chapter". Wot? Would they sell me a new game that they know has bugs in it?

And for all those people who say they'd pay for bug fixes and forego any Q3 updates, well how about no new DLC, no new chapter, no new "super, secret thing you all want", this year. Nothing at all. All those people who say you don't lose out if you get less new content couldn't complain. All those people who would pay for bug fixes couldn't complain. All those people who say the craft bag is enough couldn't complain.

ZoS won't do it because they know it won't attract new players, and the current players won't be happy with only getting fixes to a game thy have already paid for.

But I double dare yer ZoS

You seem to have failed to read that I was an ESO player since pre-Tamriel Unlimited, that means, I started out paying every month just so I can access the game. Which means there were months and quarters where they didn't add any zone, any DLC, any dungeon, any trial-- anything, and I still paid because otherwise I couldn't play my game at all. You have to remember that after they added Craglorn, content being added to ESO (which was IC) was very scarce. So yes, I am willing a year without addition as long as performance is stable, that is WHAT is more important than having a broken DLC being added to the game. And yes you are right, you are promised to get every DLC for free. Tell me which DLC are you NOT getting for free? Your argument is still silly to me.

me_ming

AzuraFan wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

yeah, but what if you're an ESO+ sub who can't even play the game for days or even weeks, because oh I don't know, when they release Firesong you can't even log into the game?

That would suck, but you can't expect all other ESO+ subscribers to pay the same for less because you can't play the game.

In your position, I'd cancel ESO+ until they fixed whatever is preventing you from playing. If you're on an annual sub, switch to monthly next time. I did that when they brought in the combat changes because I wasn't sure I'd like them. It turned out they didn't bother me that much, but I'm glad I stayed monthly because now I'm not locked in if I don't like what I hear in January.

Oh I rarely have issues logging in, to be honest. If you're already subbed, it could mean that you loose those days that you can't access your game. ESO+ counts the days even when you're not online, it's not like they count the days/hours you're in the game. Also, say you like what's happening in January, and you sub, then they release content and then bam! no login for 1 week, then you essentially lost 1 week of game play with your ESO+ value, am I not right?

Olauron

I am not sure I follow.

Year 2019: ESO+ is n dungeon packs + m zones + other included content.
Year 2020: ESO+ is n+2 dungeon packs + m+2 zones (including previous chapter) + other included content.
Year 2021: ESO+ is n+4 dungeon packs + m+4 zones (including previous chapter) + other included content.
Year 2022: ESO+ is n+6 dungeon packs + m+6 zones (including previous chapter) + other included content.
Year 2023: ESO+ is n+7 dungeon packs + m+7 zones (including previous chapter) + other included content.
Years 2019 - 2022: more content, price is the same.
Year 2023: will the price be lower? Well, since it was not getting higher every year before, there is no reason to expect it to be lower. You still get more content than a year before without an increase of price.

Tra_Lalan

I'm an eso+ subscriber and I love DLC dungeons.

I really don't care if I don't get those two dlcs from q3 and q4,
as long as they give the game what it really needs.

I mean IMHO, a new reward system, a vet overland option has more worth than another zone. Doing something to get more players into the game, and keeping vet players in the game, has more worth than two new dungeons.

The only question is what will we get instead of those q3-q4 dlcs

Beekeeper1

I am confused by ppl who believe that bug fixes and quality of life/play enhancements are raising the bar for the game. Bug fixes are an EXPECTATION that should occur asap. You don't subscribe to any game to expect great let's see what neat bugs there are in this game. They do happen. Ok - get on with it and correct those - baseline assumption.

Quality of life/play enhancements - again unless something so spectacular it is mind numbing, they are just meeting the competition to stay afloat. No bar raising here. These should have been happening already.

So that Q with only those included should have resulted nevertheless, just indicates a lack of resources dedicated to the game.

The most concerning is the statement about the 26 million lines of ageing code base, which is a huge red flag and undoubtedly the foundation for having to change their direction. That statement is telling you that they have significant constraints going forward. Yes they are adding new hardware which is great but that is also just to stay even with the competition's on-line game performance.

The dev skill sets needed for bug fixes and quality enhancements is different than that of adding new zone, new dungeons etc. Since all the graphic artists and concept folks arent needed. Reducing the 40 hours of hand built content is also a telling statement about resources. Again different skill sets involved in game design.

Gamers forget that these games are developed to make money for their corporations and shareholders and that is the sole purpose of the upper management decisions regarding investing $$. How much profit for how little investment. The developers may play and love, be consumed with the game, its story, the concepts but their management is not concerned with those features.

If the new system reveal in January isn't awe inspiring and takes your breath away with anticipation, then a big problem happens. Rule of thumb is that it takes 5 to 10 times more effort to get new customers than to keep existing ones. If that reveal is a let down then more folks will leave and well the rest is history.

AzuraFan

me_ming wrote: »

Oh I rarely have issues logging in, to be honest. If you're already subbed, it could mean that you loose those days that you can't access your game. ESO+ counts the days even when you're not online, it's not like they count the days/hours you're in the game. Also, say you like what's happening in January, and you sub, then they release content and then bam! no login for 1 week, then you essentially lost 1 week of game play with your ESO+ value, am I not right?

Sure, so the best you can do is cancel when your sub comes up for renewal. That's why I switched to a monthly sub when I wasn't sure I'd like an upcoming update. I was lucky because my annual renewal just happened to be coming up. It would suck for people who just renewed annually. With all the bugs in the game and the constantly changing direction, I'd be really hesitant to move back to an annual sub, even though it's cheaper. Because you're right, it wouldn't turn out to be cheaper if two months in, something happened that prevented me from playing the game or ruined my enjoyment of it. The rest of the annual sub would be a waste. Not something I have to worry about right now.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

1. They already said it will not have the same amount of quests. Their goal was to reduce handcrafted quests in favor of repeatable activities. We don't know what that activity will be, but we know there will less development time being spent on the story.

I see this as freeing up studio writing resources for New Game. Maybe not initially, as they can probably assign writers to all of the writing bugs, but going forward.

I am one of those people who thinks that many of the resources that ESO does not need get assigned to New Game, and they just announced that ESO will have less content, and probably can do with less resources.

AzuraFan

Beekeeper1 wrote: »

I am confused by ppl who believe that bug fixes and quality of life/play enhancements are raising the bar for the game. Bug fixes are an EXPECTATION that should occur asap. You don't subscribe to any game to expect great let's see what neat bugs there are in this game. They do happen. Ok - get on with it and correct those - baseline assumption.

Yeah, they should be fixing bugs all the time. To say "no new content so we can fix bugs" is sad.

The most concerning is the statement about the 26 million lines of ageing code base, which is a huge red flag and undoubtedly the foundation for having to change their direction. That statement is telling you that they have significant constraints going forward. Yes they are adding new hardware which is great but that is also just to stay even with the competition's on-line game performance.

Some of their decisions have definitely been driven by what they believe they can do, given the existing codebase. My feeling (could be wrong) is that they made some not-so-great design decisions early on that have come back to the bite them hard.

The dev skill sets needed for bug fixes and quality enhancements is different than that of adding new zone, new dungeons etc. Since all the graphic artists and concept folks arent needed. Reducing the 40 hours of hand built content is also a telling statement about resources. Again different skill sets involved in game design.

I think it's pretty clear if you read between the lines of the letter that ESO is not going into maintenance mode per se, but close. There will be less hand-crafted content in the future, and more systems that generate stuff for players to do. And yes, they should be able to fix bugs and produce new content at the same time, like every other gaming and software company out there. So the fact that they have to stop content production to do it also points to ESO no longer getting as many dev resources as it used to have.

Amottica

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

1. They already said it will not have the same amount of quests. Their goal was to reduce handcrafted quests in favor of repeatable activities. We don't know what that activity will be, but we know there will less development time being spent on the story.

I see this as freeing up studio writing resources for New Game. Maybe not initially, as they can probably assign writers to all of the writing bugs, but going forward.

I am one of those people who thinks that many of the resources that ESO does not need get assigned to New Game, and they just announced that ESO will have less content, and probably can do with less resources.

They can and probably have hired more resources for the other game. They have been hiring for that other game for a while so this would not be a factor. If they are reducing the number of people working on ESO, even though they are still planning on producing four significant updates a year, it would be just to reduce payroll for this game, plain and simple.

Elsonso

.

Amottica wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

1. They already said it will not have the same amount of quests. Their goal was to reduce handcrafted quests in favor of repeatable activities. We don't know what that activity will be, but we know there will less development time being spent on the story.

I see this as freeing up studio writing resources for New Game. Maybe not initially, as they can probably assign writers to all of the writing bugs, but going forward.

I am one of those people who thinks that many of the resources that ESO does not need get assigned to New Game, and they just announced that ESO will have less content, and probably can do with less resources.

They can and probably have hired more resources for the other game. They have been hiring for that other game for a while so this would not be a factor. If they are reducing the number of people working on ESO, even though they are still planning on producing four significant updates a year, it would be just to reduce payroll for this game, plain and simple.

New Game continues to build staffing. Obviously, some of that staff can come from inside... namely ESO. Of course, some of that migration from ESO to New Game gets backfilled and applied to ESO, but reducing content on ESO relieves the pressure to backfill.

EmEm_Oh

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They probably won't lower the price, because these corporations rarely do. But no matter what the chapter content turns out to be, the fact of the matter is we just lost 2 dungeons and a story dlc zone. In the final one, we didn't even get an arena. And this year also includes NO coin homes (not inns), an unprecedented decision.

Will plus subscribers get anything that represents this lost value? A house, a dungeon dlc, and a story dlc are just gone.

The 12-month long story arc was hindering the development team. It was ok for the last few years, but it was getting old and I think many got bored with such a long story arc. Now, the devs will be creating content and won't be hindered by something they need to release 9 months later.

Also, the 12-month story arc got in the way of taking care of performance features and bugs. The Dev Team seems to be limited in its scope (i.e., not enough personnel), so hopefully they can dedicated a few months to the story then a few months to features and requests, etc., without having to worry about what to come up with for the conclusion of a long story arc or whatever.

Syldras

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

The 12-month long story arc was hindering the development team. It was ok for the last few years, but it was getting old and I think many got bored with such a long story arc.

You've realized they announced that there now will be story arcs over several years again?
"Given the above, 2023 will see us moving away from the "Year Long Adventure” 12-month storylines that we have featured since 2019's Season of the Dragon. I think these have run their course and frees us up to do some new and interesting content that we've been wanting to do for a few years now—and lets us return to expansive story arcs that unfold over multiple Chapters.""
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/63363

Elsonso

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They probably won't lower the price, because these corporations rarely do. But no matter what the chapter content turns out to be, the fact of the matter is we just lost 2 dungeons and a story dlc zone. In the final one, we didn't even get an arena. And this year also includes NO coin homes (not inns), an unprecedented decision.

Will plus subscribers get anything that represents this lost value? A house, a dungeon dlc, and a story dlc are just gone.

The 12-month long story arc was hindering the development team. It was ok for the last few years, but it was getting old and I think many got bored with such a long story arc. Now, the devs will be creating content and won't be hindered by something they need to release 9 months later.

It takes them a long time to make content. We have been told (by the German CM) that it takes about 6 to 9 months to make one of the quarterly DLCs and about a year to make the Chapter. They have multiple teams working on this stuff concurrently.

I am a little curious what they intend to do with the extra time from the 4Q Zone DLC that they won't be making. Does this team start working on the second part of their multi-year story arc (the 2024 Chapter) so that they can extend the time allotted for development from 12 months to something like 18 months?

If that means a better 2024 Chapter, I would be happy to see them do that. If it is just same amount of content, same amount of bugs, slower release schedule, then not so happy.

Faulgor

me_ming wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

This is false. And in case you didn't read (or chose to ignore) what veteran players have been saying on this thread, ESO+ started with only IC (which launched, I believe, a month after ESO+ was integrated in the game) and then Orsinium, November 2015. We did not get Dark Brotherhood until May of 2016.

No. It isn't. Morrowind released in 2017. It's now 2022. We have consistently been getting content every quarter in the past for the past 5 years in fairly regular release intervals.

Beyond that...

Q1 is generally Jan, Feb, March
Q2 is generally April, May, June
Q3 is generally July, August, September
Q4 is generally October, November, December



Imperial City released Q3 for 2015 (August)

Orsinium released Q4 for 2015 (November)

The following quarter goes back to Q1...

And Thieves Guild released Q1 (Mar 2016)

And Dark Brotherhood released Q2 (May 2016)

Shadows of the Hist released Q3 (August 2016}

One Tamriel released in Q4 of 2016 (October 2016)

Which is basically considered the relaunch of the game, with us getting on the current content cadence for the last 5 years in Q2 of 2017.

Q1 (released in February 2017) was just adjustments to the game and new system (housing) after what was essentially a reboot of the entire game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Patch/2.7.5

And finally Q2 put us on the official chapter + dlc quarterly content cadence we have now.


https://bethesda.net/en/article/YAdmsTy0ISEG0YSqgOSSs/the-elder-scrolls-online-one-tamriel-launch
https://eso-hub.com/en/dlc

So while, IMP City and Orsinium came out in 2015, while TG and DB came out in 2016, they were still all within a roughly 1 year time period of quarterly releases beginning with IMP city. It just wasn't formally called chapter and dlc yet. ZOS themselves sells this content as a bundle because of that. They discount it during their year one event. Because it represents the first year-long time period of dlc content, even though it technically happened during 2 different calendar years.

https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-year-one-event/

Did they skip a bit after they started putting out true DLCs (first up being IMP city) because they had to essentially soft relaunch the whole game? Yes.

But, the pattern of releases has been remarkably consistent since 2017. And was already informally following a very similar structure since 2015.

Yes, it IS false. I mean, you outlined it yourself. Content release was never what you were used too. IC and Orsinium were still on different years. You can't just come here and say, "well, I'll group them together because that's how I want to see it". That's not how the world works. They are of different years, and were most likely not planned to go together. For one, at that time they probably didn't even plan to release a 2 DLC dungeon, 1 Chapter, 1 storyline scheme yet. There was no "pattern" yet. And again, the company is legally allowed to change that "pattern" whenever they want to, as per terms and conditions, which you and everyone of us who are playing this game, agreed too.

Now to your point of them "relaunching" the game-- been playing since pre-Tamriel Unlimited, never heard any of the devs saying "re-launching" the game, but for the sake of argument, let's just say they are. Then they probably are "re-launching" it now again, since a lot of people are obviously not interested anymore of the same 2 DLC dungeons, 1 Chapter, 1 storyline DLC that YOU are used too. So what's the problem here? Again, you're not loosing your ESO+ value, because you're not loosing your access to any of the previous DLCs/Chapters or the systems/features that came along with it. You're not even loosing any of your perks. The promise was to get access to the DLCs, not to get a new one as how you are used to getting them-- or is there something that I am missing here?

The only time I can say that my ESO+ value has lost any significant value is come next year and Q3 and 4 promises are not met. Because what the hell, am I paying ESO+ for when they're not doing anything in those times? But that is yet TBD.

The promise was "subscribe to ESO+ and get every DLC free".

This was twisted after a while by "Oh, but this release is a 'chapter', not a DLC so you don't get it for free with ESO+. Here, have a craft bag."

Mainly because, as I've said before, Wrothgar was too good! It had been in preparation for years, and they realized they couldn't afford to bring similar content out on a yearly basis.

But when I pay for a "chapter" - basically a new issue of the game with a bit added, I'd like them to roll in the bug fixes for the issues from the previous "chapter". Wot? Would they sell me a new game that they know has bugs in it?

And for all those people who say they'd pay for bug fixes and forego any Q3 updates, well how about no new DLC, no new chapter, no new "super, secret thing you all want", this year. Nothing at all. All those people who say you don't lose out if you get less new content couldn't complain. All those people who would pay for bug fixes couldn't complain. All those people who say the craft bag is enough couldn't complain.

ZoS won't do it because they know it won't attract new players, and the current players won't be happy with only getting fixes to a game thy have already paid for.

But I double dare yer ZoS

You seem to have failed to read that I was an ESO player since pre-Tamriel Unlimited, that means, I started out paying every month just so I can access the game. Which means there were months and quarters where they didn't add any zone, any DLC, any dungeon, any trial-- anything, and I still paid because otherwise I couldn't play my game at all. You have to remember that after they added Craglorn, content being added to ESO (which was IC) was very scarce. So yes, I am willing a year without addition as long as performance is stable, that is WHAT is more important than having a broken DLC being added to the game. And yes you are right, you are promised to get every DLC for free. Tell me which DLC are you NOT getting for free? Your argument is still silly to me.

Even after Tamriel Unlimited, Update 12 (One Tamriel) and Update 13 (Homestead) were free, so no value for ESO+.
Next year they added the chapter model, effectively removing one DLC from ESO+.
So the only stretch of the game where we got a DLC every quarter with ESO+ was IC to Shadows of the Hist (Update 7, 8, 9, 10, 11).

So, I'll happily give them a year to try something else, content-wise. We won't see the new normal before 2024 imo.
I'd certainly rather pay a sub to a game I like to play because the new free content is amazing, than pay a sub to gain access to new quest content (that I finish in a few hours) in a game that is otherwise lackluster.

MEBengalsFan2001

I find it funny that everyone is stating loss value, loss value, loss value. The lone fact we get crowns equal to the value of membership purchased is not something all MMOs do for their subscribers. That alone covers the value of the membership. Add to it all content that is not part of the most recent released chapter, material bag, experience bonus, etc...

The value is still there. You may not feel like it is worth the $15 a month price tag and that is fine. But the value of a membership is still there.

spartaxoxo

Faulgor wrote: »

So, I'll happily give them a year to try something else, content-wise. We won't see the new normal before 2024 imo.

According to the article, this will be the new normal cadence of content. They will make adjustments if it's necessary, but this is the beginning of the new normal cadence for at least a while. It's quite possible (and likely) the quality of 2023 will be higher than 2024. But the current cadence is done. And this cadence predates YLS, and in fact we had a dlc story arc with the current cadence during the Daedric War arc.