ESO+ just lost a significant amount of value

spartaxoxo

Faulgor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

They routinely gave away the Q4 DLC for free the last couple of years, so I don't think it's a huge diminishment.

Besides, we don't know yet if the new system released in Q4 will be free/included in the base game.

Twice is not a routine or a trend.

Is thrice? I have gotten Murkmire, Deadlands and Galen.
Dragonhold and Markarth were not given away IIRC, at least I don't have them.

Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Clockwork City, Dragonhold, and Markarth were not given away. Most of the DLC wasn't and the free stuff didn't come at set intervals.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Meh, ESO plus is about the craft bag. Haha.

Stanx

If I worked for ZOS one of the highlights of my job would be waiting for a vague announcement to go out and seeing how crazy the community gets with apparently definitive outrage over purely speculative information.

Save your outrage for when we know more. If it turns out there's a satisfying plan, you've stressed yourself out for nothing. If it is worthy of worry then you've stressed twice over one thing.

The answer is that no one knows the answer and we should just wait for the information in January. This is just a letter to confirm a future announcement.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

FluffWit wrote: »

Eh I have enough crowns to buy all the dlcs if I wanted to.

At this point literally all I'm subbing for is the craft bag.

Exactly, they know they have us by the craft bags. I could easily buy all the DLCs, but I dont. This game is simply unplayable when you have an account like mine (18 max crafters, writs, hoarding problem). I definitely let my sub lapse from time to time these days, but if I am playing, I am subbed, and its 100% for the craft bag.

There is a reason there are a million different types of mats, trait stones, style stones, etc. The game is designed to be unplayable without a sub. It is 100% on purpose.

SeaGtGruff

Luede wrote: »

the bottom line is that most will keep eso+, regardless of how little it brings, since most won't want to play without the craft bag.

For me, ESO Plus has always been about the Craft Bag, because I had already purchased all of the available DLCs before I finally decided to pay for an ESO Plus subscription. The fact that I already had access to all DLC content kept me away from ESO Plus at first, since I felt that I wouldn't be getting the "full value" from it. But after looking at the number of Crowns I'd be getting with the subscription, along with that all-important Craft Bag and the doubled Bank and Housing space, it was obvious to me that ESO Plus was a good investment with or without access to the DLC "rentals." And given that conclusion, I've had no hesitation to continue buying the DLCs upon their release despite having ESO Plus, even if I've been given a DLC for free as an event reward, since I always buy the Collectors Editions.

SeaGtGruff

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Eh I have enough crowns to buy all the dlcs if I wanted to.

At this point literally all I'm subbing for is the craft bag.

Exactly, they know they have us by the craft bags. I could easily buy all the DLCs, but I dont. This game is simply unplayable when you have an account like mine (18 max crafters, writs, hoarding problem). I definitely let my sub lapse from time to time these days, but if I am playing, I am subbed, and its 100% for the craft bag.

There is a reason there are a million different types of mats, trait stones, style stones, etc. The game is designed to be unplayable without a sub. It is 100% on purpose.

Not really. I played it for years without an ESO Plus subscription. I imagine that a lot of other players are playing it right now without subscriptions. The Craft Bag is extremely useful, but it's really only "essential" to players like you and I who are into crafting; the players who are not into crafting probably just sell or destroy any crafting materials and ingredients so they won't be burdened by them.

Kirawolfe

I'd be happier with richer, better content, rather than just MOAR content.

With all the bugs in these past two releases it seems they have problems delivering now on the schedule they set up with Elsweyr.

A multi-year story arc intrigues me, I've gotta say. I eat up good stories, and one that keeps me engaged for that length of time - if they do it well - would be amazing.

I'm looking forward to the change of pace, particularly if they have new stuff in older zones to keep people engaged while new content is being developed. Anything that breathes a little new life into the older spaces would be welcome.

(as an aside, please update the old wolf models to the Solitude model, I just feel bad for those guys XD)

AinSoph

The Value of ESO+ is extremely subjective and will differ wildly depending on who you ask and what content they prefer participating in. Personally though, I only consider the Craft Bag, double bank space, and double furniture cap to be the only real perks on ESO+ to have value as they are practical, convenient, and locked to the subscription. Everything else is either too little effect to notice (craft bonuses/exp/gold/double transmute cap/exclusive deals/costume dyeing) or can be acquired in a much easier/cheaper way (crown trading/into DLC's with ingame gold).

Necrotech_Master

the vast majority of the reason i have ESO+ is the craft bag, minor reasons would be the crown stipend, housing limits, transmute limits

i usually end up using my stipend on the dlcs anyway because theres not much i actually care about in the crown store lol

would rather see them do better content than shovelware content

I_killed_Vivec

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Would the year of Wrothgar have been as good ...

Unfortunately that is the problem. Wrothgar was too good, too much content, too much enjoyment, too much expectation for future DLC.

DLC that were given away for free with ESO+.

ZoS decided that it was setting the bar too high in terms of the quality of DLC ESO+ users could get for free, and introduced "chapters", which we'd all have to pay for, and bought ESO+ users off with a craft bag and a smattering of crowns...

Now they have decided that even chapters are too "generous" in their current format, and instead of giving us new stuff they will take our money to fix the old stuff that we already paid for.

By the way, to answer those so addicted to the craft bag that they cannot, or will not, see it: craft bag plus "something" (regardless of what it might be) is more than just craft bag. So when that something goes we are losing out. It might not be a something one particularly cares about, but when it's gone they will come for something else, and sooner or later it will be something people do care about.

Vevvev

ESO+ to me is the crafting bag, housing capacity, bank capacity, and slight gold boost. I really don't care about the DLCs anymore, and it just serves as a QOL thing now more than a content thing. The most valuable DLC of the year is the expansion and I always had to pay for it separately anyways after they introduced that concept.

Dr_Con

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Would the year of Wrothgar have been as good ...

Unfortunately that is the problem. Wrothgar was too good, too much content, too much enjoyment, too much expectation for future DLC.

DLC that were given away for free with ESO+.

ZoS decided that it was setting the bar too high in terms of the quality of DLC ESO+ users could get for free, and introduced "chapters", which we'd all have to pay for, and bought ESO+ users off with a craft bag and a smattering of crowns...

Now they have decided that even chapters are too "generous" in their current format, and instead of giving us new stuff they will take our money to fix the old stuff that we already paid for.

By the way, to answer those so addicted to the craft bag that they cannot, or will not, see it: craft bag plus "something" (regardless of what it might be) is more than just craft bag. So when that something goes we are losing out. It might not be a something one particularly cares about, but when it's gone they will come for something else, and sooner or later it will be something people do care about.

Honestly if someone has several million and wishes to unsub, they should expect to not do daily writs without having those early years of frustration we all had with mats taking up our inventory, and they should load up on wood/ingots/clothier stuff for every level, as well as upgrade mats.

Soraka

I'm good without all the filler. Less can be more and I'm hoping it is. I sub ESO+ and really barely even bother with some of these new releases because it really seems bland compared to last stuff. I get around to it eventually, but it feels like more of a chore than it used to.

AzuraFan

Dr_Con wrote: »

Honestly if someone has several million and wishes to unsub, they should expect to not do daily writs without having those early years of frustration we all had with mats taking up our inventory, and they should load up on wood/ingots/clothier stuff for every level, as well as upgrade mats.

Only if they care about crafting. If they don't, the craft bag isn't necessary. As for the daily writs, if you do them on a character with 50 in whatever crafting skill, you only need one level of crafting materials, plus upgrade mats. For provisioning, alchemy, and enchanting, you'd just need the crafting materials for the small set of stuff the daily writs always want.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be more inconvenient than without the craft bag, but it's certainly doable. When I started playing ESO, I didn't sub for a while. Now that I only play my main, I could probably drop the craft bag without suffering too much (after cleaning out my inventory and bank, which has a lot of crud in it right now).

Kiralyn2000

I've done writs on 8 characters without the bag. I keep surveys & refining until a free ESO+ promo, I shove raw materials into my bank until they become full 200 stacks at which point I stick them on my mule alt, and I sell some of the lower-tier materials that I've got plenty of in stock if the bank gets close to full.

It helps that while I do craft, I don't keep multiple sets of gear for everyone. If you do both of those things, you probably do "need" the craft bag.

LyricsEcho

Eso is always discounted by services when you try to purchase a copy to begin with. Eso also gives away free digital housing, goods, dlcs with arenas, a full chapter etc.... So I guess what I'm saying is that with all of these free things they lose value in itself but they still have the lights on even if they are giving us content at a loss of profit.

karthrag_inak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It doesn't change that ESO+ lost value. That's how price increases work. Less product for the same price is a price increase and represents a lower value than it was before. Hence the question if they plan to change ESO+ at all.

Sorry, do not mean to pester, but Khajiit does not agree with the premise.

If they do not add any content next year at all, then they did not give us less product, they gave us unchanged product. This is not a loss in value. They will, of course, add -some- content, so the value has actually increased, just not by the same amount, perhaps, that it increased in past years.

spartaxoxo

karthrag_inak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It doesn't change that ESO+ lost value. That's how price increases work. Less product for the same price is a price increase and represents a lower value than it was before. Hence the question if they plan to change ESO+ at all.

Sorry, do not mean to pester, but Khajiit does not agree with the premise.

If they do not add any content next year at all, then they did not give us less product, they gave us unchanged product. This is not a loss in value. They will, of course, add -some- content, so the value has actually increased, just not by the same amount, perhaps, that it increased in past years.

It's not pester at all, discussing is what these boards are for!

Subscriptions work on what you will get. So getting less is significant. If your steak of the month club gave 5 steaks for 50 dollars last month, but 4 steaks for 50 dollars this month, then that steak of the month club is a worse value now. It used to give you 1 steak for 10.00. Now, it gives you 1 steak for 12.50. So, the price of the steak is increased.

This is literally how you compare the value of subs.

ETA

This year I received

Water's Edge House available for coin (Blackwood chapter) 6200 crown value

Blackwood (3500 crowns)

Ascending Tide (1500 crowns)

Firesong (2000 crowns)

Lost Depths (1500 crowns)

The total crown value that I received was 14700 crowns worth of stuff, if I were to buy them each from the store at individual crown prices. This is 107.98 worth of merchandise.

Next year I'll receive

No house = 0 crowns
New Chapter = 3500 crowns
1 DLC dungeon pack = 1500 crowns
1 system. Let's be optimistic and say this system has the same value as entire Q4 DLC release, and that I'll get it with plus, for the sake of argument. 2000 crowns

That's 7000 crowns of value. This is 54.98 dollars of value.

Even if you say well let's not compare having a house to not having a house because maybe this year was a one time thing, that's still 1500 crowns less. Which is 14.99 less value.

karthrag_inak

That's not what is happening though - no content is being taken away.

It's as if the steak of month club first gave 2 steaks, then 4 steaks, then 6 steaks, then 8 steaks, then persists in only giving 8 steaks, all for the same price.

spartaxoxo

karthrag_inak wrote: »

That's not what is happening though - no content is being taken away.

It's as if the steak of month club first gave 2 steaks, then 4 steaks, then 6 steaks, then 8 steaks, then persists in only giving 8 steaks, all for the same price.

That is what is happening. The 2 steak packs have less value than the 8 steak pack. In your example, the steak of the month club increased in value from when it was first offered. Because you get 8 steaks instead of 2 steaks, for the same price.

You pay subscriptions not just for what you already have, but what you will receive.

karthrag_inak

Perhaps we shall just agree to disagree, yes Is valid discussion to have, at least.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I figured someone would suggest ESO+ just lost value.

I will point out that getting four dungeons and two zones a year is extremely heavy on the dungeon side. I know I am tired of getting so many dungeons a year.
'
Even then,we do not know how the DLCs will turn out. We may get more in the three releases a year. Even then, I have not seen the slightest clue offered to suggest what the Q4 offering will be. It may be a great offering to the game.

As such, we only know that things will get different and that it is premature to suggest we will get less value. Zenimax knows content is a big driver to keeping players in the game. So yes, it is very hasty to suggest any facts based on the vague information we have received.

They stated the Q4 DLC will be the big system, and it's gonna be a tentpole type thing. It sounds like they've moved the big new system from being part of the chapter DLC to a standalone thing in Q4. We'll probably still get a Trial in the chapter though, as they said the chapter will be full featured. It will be interesting to see what they can do with more time to polish it.

I know what they said.

So yes, we do not have the slightest clue what that system will be, and how much it will add to the game. As such it is extremely premature to suggest ESO+ has lost value.

We may not know what the system will be, but we don't need to in order to know that having a system is not new. It is a standard part of the offering. Good systems are not new.

1 system
1 chapter
4 dungeons
1 story dlc

became

1 system
1 chapter
2 dungeons
0 story dlc

It might be higher quality, but they already told us the plan is to reduce the number of quests in favor of something repeatable and to stop releasing content each quarter. Because now they want to do quality control a quarter. Less stuff for the same price is a reduction in value.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

. There may or may not be perks related to new systems in play here.

Yes, this is what I want to know. I want to know if changing up plus a bit is planned to accommodate these changes.

ETA

We are not talking about this content schedule being around just next year, after all. We used to get new content every quarter, so those that subbed for a year would have something new to do every quarter, and now we're not. If the content is still pushed out on the same months that means after the chapter release around Jun, nothing will be added until November. That's not an insignificant time period to get nothing new out of your sub.

The fact is that we don’t know what each will look like under this new design. That means it’s a major assumption that ESO+ will have less value making it premature to suggest it has. That’s the only fact we have at the moment.

Elsonso

francesinhalover wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They probably won't lower the price, because these corporations rarely do. But no matter what the chapter content turns out to be, the fact of the matter is we just lost 2 dungeons and a story dlc zone. In the final one, we didn't even get an arena. And this year also includes NO coin homes (not inns), an unprecedented decision.

Will plus subscribers get anything that represents this lost value? A house, a dungeon dlc, and a story dlc are just gone.

I don't get it. people cry they want more quality and the game's issues to be fixed
And than we get people acting like this.

As I see it, we already paid for the quality. Both content quality and defect quality. We should not have to pay more, or give concessions to them, so they can do what they should have been doing all along.

karthrag_inak wrote: »

That's not what is happening though - no content is being taken away.

It's as if the steak of month club first gave 2 steaks, then 4 steaks, then 6 steaks, then 8 steaks, then persists in only giving 8 steaks, all for the same price.

Based on what we know today, we can surmise that there is less paid content coming in 2023 compared to 2022. The people who do not have ESO Plus, like yours truly, can spend less money on ESO. The people who pay for ESO Plus cannot say that. They are paying the same for a 2023 subscription, but less content is added to the game. Nothing is removed, and actually, stuff is added, but not as much stuff as in previous years.

That is commonly referred to as a "reduction", even though the net is increasing.

Even if they decide to charge Crowns for the QoL DLC and System DLC so that ESO Plus can have those included, the potential of ESO Plus is not holding up to previous years. We used to get those things PLUS 2 dungeons and a story zone that will not be offered. Right now, there is less reason to subscribe to ESO Plus for 2023 than 2022, by approximately 2 dungeons and one story zone worth of value.

Now... ZOS is well aware of this, so it will be interesting to see how they respond and what they do.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I figured someone would suggest ESO+ just lost value.

I will point out that getting four dungeons and two zones a year is extremely heavy on the dungeon side. I know I am tired of getting so many dungeons a year.
'
Even then,we do not know how the DLCs will turn out. We may get more in the three releases a year. Even then, I have not seen the slightest clue offered to suggest what the Q4 offering will be. It may be a great offering to the game.

As such, we only know that things will get different and that it is premature to suggest we will get less value. Zenimax knows content is a big driver to keeping players in the game. So yes, it is very hasty to suggest any facts based on the vague information we have received.

They stated the Q4 DLC will be the big system, and it's gonna be a tentpole type thing. It sounds like they've moved the big new system from being part of the chapter DLC to a standalone thing in Q4. We'll probably still get a Trial in the chapter though, as they said the chapter will be full featured. It will be interesting to see what they can do with more time to polish it.

I know what they said.

So yes, we do not have the slightest clue what that system will be, and how much it will add to the game. As such it is extremely premature to suggest ESO+ has lost value.

We may not know what the system will be, but we don't need to in order to know that having a system is not new. It is a standard part of the offering. Good systems are not new.

1 system
1 chapter
4 dungeons
1 story dlc

became

1 system
1 chapter
2 dungeons
0 story dlc

It might be higher quality, but they already told us the plan is to reduce the number of quests in favor of something repeatable and to stop releasing content each quarter. Because now they want to do quality control a quarter. Less stuff for the same price is a reduction in value.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

. There may or may not be perks related to new systems in play here.

Yes, this is what I want to know. I want to know if changing up plus a bit is planned to accommodate these changes.

ETA

We are not talking about this content schedule being around just next year, after all. We used to get new content every quarter, so those that subbed for a year would have something new to do every quarter, and now we're not. If the content is still pushed out on the same months that means after the chapter release around Jun, nothing will be added until November. That's not an insignificant time period to get nothing new out of your sub.

The fact is that we don’t know what each will look like under this new design. That means it’s a major assumption that ESO+ will have less value making it premature to suggest it has. That’s the only fact we have at the moment.

It isn't the only fact we have. We also have the fact that will be NOT be getting anything new content wise in Q3. They said they wanted to reduce the number of handcrafted quests in favor of repeatables. That we will get a new system alone in Q4 and that this system will replace the Q4 DLC. And that nothing new content wise will replace the deletion of the Q3 DLC dungeon pack. And we also have the facts of what we used to get. We used to get a house every year, and this year's chapter didn't have one. We got bug fixes and content at the same time in the past, now we won't. We have gotten high quality systems too, and we know for a fact that a new system has been something included every year for years now.

We have more than one fact to draw from.

SimonThesis

TBF on the flip side of things we should be very grateful the price of ESO+ hasn't increased with inflation and the skyhigh cost of housing and gas. They really should be increasing the cost of ESO+ every year to match inflation and housing costs, especially with them upgrading servers those aren't cheap. A lot of players left the game after Update 35 they probably don't have the staff/money to keep up with the same amount of content.

If it was up to you, would you rather pay more or have 2 less dungeons and 1 less zone you'll never visit?

I'm just glad they're finally fixing bugs.

spartaxoxo

SimonThesis wrote: »

TBF on the flip side of things we should be very grateful the price of ESO+ hasn't increased with inflation and the skyhigh cost of housing and gas. They really should be increasing the cost of ESO+ every year to match inflation and housing costs, especially with them upgrading servers those aren't cheap. A lot of players left the game after Update 35 they probably don't have the staff/money to keep up with the same amount of content.

I'm just glad they're finally fixing bugs.

Well raising the price by giving you less for the same sticker price is actually a pretty common tactic. It's known as shrinkflation. So, it may be the case that they are trying to raise the price of a sub without increasing the sticker price. They have also increased the cost of crown store items over the years. It could well be necessary, as you say.

FeedbackOnly

Craft bag is a big time saver

Elsonso

SimonThesis wrote: »

TBF on the flip side of things we should be very grateful the price of ESO+ hasn't increased with inflation and the skyhigh cost of housing and gas. They really should be increasing the cost of ESO+ every year to match inflation and housing costs, especially with them upgrading servers those aren't cheap. A lot of players left the game after Update 35 they probably don't have the staff/money to keep up with the same amount of content.

I'm just glad they're finally fixing bugs.

This would be a bad time for them to be thinking, "Gee, maybe we need to raise the price of ESO Plus."

I am happy they are fixing bugs, but I sort of expect them to be doing this all along. It is sort of their responsibility to handle that.

Carcamongus

I understand it at first appears ESO+ will lose (note the verb tense) value, but Matt's letter left much unsaid and promised more details starting in January. While this concern is perfectly valid and we should indeed speak up, it's still too soon to reach too many conclusions. The devs must be aware their plans will result in less content being included in the subscription, so it's possible they'll add something else. What we can and should do is remind them we won't be happy to have less bang for our buck, but as of now we still don't know very well how the game will be next year. I prefer to wait and see if ESO+ will indeed lose part of its value.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I figured someone would suggest ESO+ just lost value.

I will point out that getting four dungeons and two zones a year is extremely heavy on the dungeon side. I know I am tired of getting so many dungeons a year.
'
Even then,we do not know how the DLCs will turn out. We may get more in the three releases a year. Even then, I have not seen the slightest clue offered to suggest what the Q4 offering will be. It may be a great offering to the game.

As such, we only know that things will get different and that it is premature to suggest we will get less value. Zenimax knows content is a big driver to keeping players in the game. So yes, it is very hasty to suggest any facts based on the vague information we have received.

They stated the Q4 DLC will be the big system, and it's gonna be a tentpole type thing. It sounds like they've moved the big new system from being part of the chapter DLC to a standalone thing in Q4. We'll probably still get a Trial in the chapter though, as they said the chapter will be full featured. It will be interesting to see what they can do with more time to polish it.

I know what they said.

So yes, we do not have the slightest clue what that system will be, and how much it will add to the game. As such it is extremely premature to suggest ESO+ has lost value.

We may not know what the system will be, but we don't need to in order to know that having a system is not new. It is a standard part of the offering. Good systems are not new.

1 system
1 chapter
4 dungeons
1 story dlc

became

1 system
1 chapter
2 dungeons
0 story dlc

It might be higher quality, but they already told us the plan is to reduce the number of quests in favor of something repeatable and to stop releasing content each quarter. Because now they want to do quality control a quarter. Less stuff for the same price is a reduction in value.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

. There may or may not be perks related to new systems in play here.

Yes, this is what I want to know. I want to know if changing up plus a bit is planned to accommodate these changes.

ETA

We are not talking about this content schedule being around just next year, after all. We used to get new content every quarter, so those that subbed for a year would have something new to do every quarter, and now we're not. If the content is still pushed out on the same months that means after the chapter release around Jun, nothing will be added until November. That's not an insignificant time period to get nothing new out of your sub.

The fact is that we don’t know what each will look like under this new design. That means it’s a major assumption that ESO+ will have less value making it premature to suggest it has. That’s the only fact we have at the moment.

It isn't the only fact we have. We also have the fact that will be NOT be getting anything new content wise in Q3.

They said they wanted to reduce the number of handcrafted quests in favor of repeatables. That we will get a new system alone in Q4 and that this system will replace the Q4 DLC. And that nothing new content wise will replace the deletion of the Q3 DLC dungeon pack. And we also have the facts of what we used to get. We used to get a house every year, and this year's chapter didn't have one. We got bug fixes and content at the same time in the past, now we won't. We have gotten high quality systems too, and we know for a fact that a new system has been something included every year for years now.

We have more than one fact to draw from.

and the fact we will not get new content in Q3 does not mean much since we do not know what will unfold with the other three quarters. The Chapter may be more extensive as well. Q4 system could be larger or more involved than other systems we have seen and they are only working on the concept and design of it ATM.

Then we have an undeniable value increase in the game if Q3 actually brings an increase in the overall bug fixes. Players have actually asked for this.

Oh, and Rich even noted that if they need to make adjustments, they will.

We will know more early next year. We will have a better picture of all this when Zenimax goes into more detail with their Global Reveal event. Until then, then the effect of all this is nothing more than pure speculation.

We can talk about this in more detail then since any discussion on the effect on ESO+ value is nothing more than pure speculation until then. Even then, we will still lack the full picture.

Enjoy the game and have a good day.