Assassin's Will is balanced

xDeusEJRx

Yes balanced

I don't believe merciless resolve is the problem skill in the toolkit. They did too much giving nightblade so many damage buffs baked into their toolkit.
Stacked with other skills like Camo hunter, essence thief, crit damage, etc. It amounts to an insane burst combo, given the caster can land all of it.

The only reason I have no problem with it's functionality is the clunkiness and slowness of landing a NB burst makes it painfully easy to avoid their combo if your awareness is good enough.
So to that end it's fine to me. but if we want to reduce the values try looking at nerfing all the damage modifiers NB have

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

the clunkiness and slowness of landing a NB burst makes it painfully easy to avoid their combo if your awareness is good enough

YES. Thank you.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

@React not to single you out but you seem to be the front spokesperson for saying it is balanced... I just have a few more things to say.

#1) you keep, in comments to Skara, mentioning things like guard debuffs or balorghs. But surely you realize that guard debuffs and balorghs can apply to fighting any other class and can add to the damage of any other ability also. They can make an assassin's will go from 20k to 28k. Okay, understood, but really has nothing to do with it still being the hardest hitting ability in the game. The same buffs/debuffs will make another ability that hits for 15k hit for 22k. It's the remaining difference of 6k that makes it OP.

2) you still haven't named a single target ability that hits harder. So I'm assuming it is in fact the hardest hitting single target ability in the game. And this is the extremely solid bedrock upon which our complaint is founded. The easiest to understand that any complaint could be.

3) and I have to say one more time that the damage and crit modifiers that a nightblade is alone capable of, as well as the in-game real-time strategies that only an invisible person can reasonably employ, are factors that make things WORSE not better. They are not excuses for the high number. They are why the number shouldn't be so high to start with.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

Bah sorry for the double-post but in reply to the thought that "there are a lot of hoops to jump through" to get assassin's will go proc:

I've played nightblade. You're all correct to say that. It is extremely frustrating. But the tooltip doesn't need to reach the moon because the skill is somewhat hard to land. People shouldn't get 1-shotted for almost 30k as a reward for a clunky skill. That is the wrong fix. The right fix is to make it less clunky.

They aren't the only class with a delayed damage skill that is either tied to stacks of something, predictable with a large delay, or an integral part of their class kit. I believe every class has one these days, from blast bones to curse to whip to shalks to whatever that templar ability is called.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

you still haven't named a single target ability that hits harder

How hard should the hardest hit hit, relative to the current levels of insane defensive power?

I prefer the meta where players had around 24k hp and the hardest single hits were around 12k.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

@xylena_lazarow fair point don't get me wrong but isn't the tank meta a slightly different problem? And doesn't it scream "I'm not balanced" if only one class is capable of killing these people?

I'll vote to fix both problems but at the moment I only want to discuss the one this topic happens to be about. The original post described a scenario with a talented player having adequate defensive stats and still getting hit for a preposterous number.

If people are routinely getting hit for 20, 25, 28k is that going to make them run more or less hp in their future builds? Does it help combat the tank meta or make it worse over time?

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

If people are routinely getting hit for 20, 25, 28k is that going to make them run more or less hp in their future builds? Does it help combat the tank meta or make it worse over time?

You can't talk about what the ideal burst maximum is without talking about what average player HP in the meta is. Clever Alchemist + Rallying Cry "damage" Wardens have 37k hp with little deliberate investment in hp itself. Nerfing spectral bow won't change this build. Players go where the power is. Don't be under the expectation that one can simply build "anti-meta" as if this were a properly balanced game.

The last time I remember this game being close to balanced... players had around 24k hp, the max burst from a single hit was around 12k hp, spammables hit 3-6k hp, burst heals hit a little higher than damage spammables but were more expensive, and most importantly: dots ticked 1-2k and were slightly stronger than hots. If you tried to stall out a fight, you would run out of resources (which also never happens anymore) and melt to dots. Messing this up was the beginning of the end.

TechMaybeHic

The other bursts have gotten boring. Templar POTL so meh as it doesnt get near tooltip copied in PvP. Wardens takes an eternity to get the 2nd big hit on fast movement combat that will change before it does. Necro blast bones AI is dumb, and Avid Boneyard tied to a synergy cool down. Sorcs have some options but they are so lacking overall you just don't see many.

So I'd say be careful wanting to go towards those. One reason I'm here and not in another MMO is I've found I don't care for their weapon lines enough. ZOS is really close to not having classes people actually enjoy as they select just what they think performs better. That leads to detachment from their character and the game

Thecompton73

Yes balanced

Sergykid wrote: »

these players that keep on saying that u can react to assassin will are getting so obnoxious.

"just dodge or block it" no. Stop. That "500ms" travel time is under reaction time.
And even if you notice it, by the time you react it already hits you.
And even if you react to it, by the time you do an action it already damages you.

Also "short window", what? isn't it 60 seconds available time to launch it? or what do i know?

this is s spell you must intuit, you must expect it and react before you think it will come, like after an incap.

it is balanced in terms of damage for its requirements, but it also has some passive bonuses. But drop the reaction time counterplayability nonsense.

Based on all the guesses/assumptions about the way the skill works I can only surmise you've never actually used it yourself. Please use a standard full medium NB character and try it out. I think you'll be quite surprised at how difficult it is to stay alive while building and keeping stacks and then landing the proc successfully.
People constantly complaining about any skill that can actually kill them is what has lead us to the boring mitigation/massive healing meta we're in.

Theignson

No not balanced

Despite all the NB who desperately want to preserve this skill,

Merciless resolve is ABSURDLY over powered. No other class has anything comparable

For free, no resource utilization, you get 300 extra weapon damage just by normal weaving. No other skill has this. DK requires 3 GCD of resource using skills to generate the weapon damage for Whip.

Then you get a 20k damage hit-- more damage than most ultis-- FAR more damage than any normal skill.

No-- that's not all!! THEN you get a 10k heal!!

Absurd. When you combine with all the "gifts" given NB, eg Concealed weapon: 1) good spammable 2) sets the opponent off balance-- (setting up the spectral bow) 3) 10% free damage!! (integrated with refreshing path so it is always up) 4) ON TOP of all that-- free minor expedition!!

All this combined with one of the best burst heals and these NB dealing insane damage are NOT at all glass cannons. They are very hard to kill. This is why so many NB are running the React build (also Pelican psoted a similar build)

This is not to take away from React's huge skill, I've tried his build and don't have the skill to do what he does, he is probably the best player I've ever seen and a good teacher (which is why I subscribe to his channel .

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

Theignson wrote: »

All this combined with one of the best burst heals and these NB dealing insane damage are NOT at all glass cannons.

There's your problem. Damage is still not the problem.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

If people are routinely getting hit for 20, 25, 28k is that going to make them run more or less hp in their future builds? Does it help combat the tank meta or make it worse over time?

You can't talk about what the ideal burst maximum is without talking about what average player HP in the meta is. Clever Alchemist + Rallying Cry "damage" Wardens have 37k hp with little deliberate investment in hp itself. Nerfing spectral bow won't change this build. Players go where the power is. Don't be under the expectation that one can simply build "anti-meta" as if this were a properly balanced game.

The last time I remember this game being close to balanced... players had around 24k hp, the max burst from a single hit was around 12k hp, spammables hit 3-6k hp, burst heals hit a little higher than damage spammables but were more expensive, and most importantly: dots ticked 1-2k and were slightly stronger than hots. If you tried to stall out a fight, you would run out of resources (which also never happens anymore) and melt to dots. Messing this up was the beginning of the end.

Okay so literally by your own words then... In order for a 28k hit to be balanced the enemy would need to have 56k HP. But you say the meta wardens you see are just shy of 40?

Time to change your vote I think.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

Okay so literally by your own words then... In order for a 28k hit to be balanced the enemy would need to have 56k HP. But you say the meta wardens you see are just shy of 40?

No, look at how much HP you are left with after the big hit, in both examples you're left in the 8-12k range which is plenty to recover from. Except now, burst heals are worth half your 36k hp instead of a quarter of your 24k hp, plus you can sustain spamming them more easily. Also note that instead of ticking for 1-2k against 24k HP, dots are now ticking for sub 500 against 36k HP, which is absolutely pathetic on its own, nevermind that hots tick double those values.

Or sure, keep blaming damage, let's nerf spectral bow too, surely that will bring this PvP back to life, just like all the other damage nerfs before it have built such a healthy and balanced and well-populated PvP game.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. To include that delayed damage high burst skills should do roughly half of a targets HP. Assuming the attacker is high damage and the recipient is, eeeh, normal.

Now we can debate which came first the chicken (high damage,) or the egg (tank meta,) all day but neither problem is going to get solved if we come to threads about A and harp on B until the conversation balloons into something that nobody agrees on.

You said the last time things were balanced people had about 24k HP and high burst from a single ability was about 12k. I agree with this approximate 50%.

I also agree with your other points about clever alchemist, rallying cry, balorghs, wardens, blahblahblah. But this isn't the time or place to talk about that. In fact discussing the tank meta amidst an ongoing topic about 28k spectral bows is kinda tongue in cheek isn't it? It should be.

Nobody wants to give up their tankyness BECAUSE 28k spectral bows exist. And I do understand that you think 28k spectral bows need to exist because of the tank meta... But again, can't you make your own topic for that?

Both things need to be fixed. I suggest we use this thread to all come together in a united voice and decry an obviously overpowered skill. Then someone else can make another thread about the ridiculous tank meta and we can all go agree about that too.

How else will the devs see we're serious and more than just squabbling children all protecting our preferred play styles?

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nobody wants to give up their tankyness

Yea that's pretty much the gist of it. Too many afraid to die in a video game, too many more salty that they did.

Amottica

Yes balanced

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Hey @SkaraMinoc was that 27k bow the result of being zerged down, or in a 1v1? Just curious.

I was fighting a Warden 1v1 in a Cyrodiil keep and a random Nightblade opened with Incapacitating Strike + Assassin's Will. They must have gotten the stacks from a nearby fight. The Assassin's Will sound effect started playing on death and there was no visual telegraph.

Contrary to what @React stated, there was no possible way to avoid this damage. My break frees are near instant. But let's accuse me of a "failed to counterplay" issue despite my actions per minute (APM) being some of the highest on PC NA.

I had Major Breach and Minor Brittle only. Regardless, the context doesn't matter even if React thinks it does. Damage should never reach that high for a single ability in PvP.

This post has important information that places essential context missing from the question in the opening post. The post right after the one I have quoted adds possible context.

This shows that @React is correct in that context matters, and it matters more than just leaving out some debuffs.

taugrim

Yes balanced

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Hey @SkaraMinoc was that 27k bow the result of being zerged down, or in a 1v1? Just curious.

Contrary to what @React stated, there was no possible way to avoid this damage. My break frees are near instant. But let's accuse me of a "failed to counterplay" issue despite my actions per minute (APM) being some of the highest on PC NA.

Does your APM include the fact that you are hitting Bash 3 times per second? 🤣🤣🤣

You're a very skilled player, but it's ironic that you're complaining about lack of counterplay when you run a Bash-based build that is super cheesy. You out-cast / out-DPM / out-sustain targets.

I dislike 1-shot or 2-shot PVP, but getting the kinds of numbers you mention are outliers, not the norm.

OBJnoob wrote: »

@React not to single you out but you seem to be the front spokesperson for saying it is balanced... I just have a few more things to say.

The majority of people responding to the poll don't think it's imbalanced.

I find that NBs struggle the most out of any class, at least in BGs. They're so fragile if they build for heavy burst. The players who excel with NB are a very tiny minority of the players - it simply requires way too much finesse.

Swinging the nerf bat at NBs seems to be the wrong target.

Many people HATE getting ganked, but what else are NBs supposed to do? Other classes brawl more effectively.

MetallicMonk

Yes balanced

taugrim wrote: »

I find that NBs struggle the most out of any class, at least in BGs. They're so fragile if they build for heavy burst. The players who excel with NB are a very tiny minority of the players - it simply requires way too much finesse.

Swinging the nerf bat at NBs seems to be the wrong target.

Many people HATE getting ganked, but what else are NBs supposed to do? Other classes brawl more effectively.

While I'm of the mind that spectral bow is fine and it's other reasons why the damage is so high, I have to disagree with this these days.

NB used to take more finesse but as of now it is probably the strongest class, and definitely one of the easiest. A class with that much access to damage, mobility, defense, and healing will let you get away with a ton; you can basically accidentally one shot people and spam heal 15k+ burst heals.

Class definitely needs nerfs, just not this one specific ability.

taugrim

Yes balanced

MetallicMonk wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I find that NBs struggle the most out of any class, at least in BGs. They're so fragile if they build for heavy burst. The players who excel with NB are a very tiny minority of the players - it simply requires way too much finesse.

Swinging the nerf bat at NBs seems to be the wrong target.

Many people HATE getting ganked, but what else are NBs supposed to do? Other classes brawl more effectively.

While I'm of the mind that spectral bow is fine and it's other reasons why the damage is so high, I have to disagree with this these days.

NB used to take more finesse but as of now it is probably the strongest class, and definitely one of the easiest. A class with that much access to damage, mobility, defense, and healing will let you get away with a ton; you can basically accidentally one shot people and spam heal 15k+ burst heals.

Class definitely needs nerfs, just not this one specific ability.

Are you talking Cyro/IC or BGs or both?

In BGs, NBs are not overpowered. I find a competent DK or Warden to be much more threatening.

MetallicMonk

Yes balanced

taugrim wrote: »

Are you talking Cyro/IC or BGs or both?

In BGs, NBs are not overpowered. I find a competent DK or Warden to be much more threatening.

That I can agree with for sure to an extent, they're definitely not as bad as they were in groups before if you build them right, but I'd say DK and Warden are more of a threat in BGs as well.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

MetallicMonk wrote: »

NB used to take more finesse but as of now it is probably the strongest class, and definitely one of the easiest. A class with that much access to damage, mobility, defense, and healing will let you get away with a ton; you can basically accidentally one shot people and spam heal 15k+ burst heals.

Dunning Kruger. You are underestimating both your own skill, and how difficult it is for casual players to learn PvP NB. Landing combos through the cast times and travel delays is extremely difficult. Things like medium weaving to combo off balance stuns takes a lot of practice. Using Invis Cloak properly is much more difficult than anyone wants to admit. It's not obvious how to properly build them or what skills to slot unless you already know the meta.

Consider all the memes around how easy it is to kill casual NB players in this PvP... it's a very unforgiving class and spec compared to the 38k HP Pariah block heal stuff the average Cyro zerger runs.

MetallicMonk

Yes balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dunning Kruger. You are underestimating both your own skill, and how difficult it is for casual players to learn PvP NB. Landing combos through the cast times and travel delays is extremely difficult. Things like medium weaving to combo off balance stuns takes a lot of practice. Using Invis Cloak properly is much more difficult than anyone wants to admit. It's not obvious how to properly build them or what skills to slot unless you already know the meta.

Consider all the memes around how easy it is to kill casual NB players in this PvP... it's a very unforgiving class and spec compared to the 38k HP Pariah block heal stuff the average Cyro zerger runs.

To an extent definitely, but the class has undoubtedly become far easier. I find myself killing people without even stunning them sometimes just because of the massive crits it can spit out, and if I make mistakes my spammable burst heal can get me out of most tight situations.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

MetallicMonk wrote: »

To an extent definitely, but the class has undoubtedly become far easier... I make mistakes my spammable burst heal can get me out of most tight situations.

There it is again! The overpowered spammable burst heal that every class has, messing up the combat system. Every class can also delete unoptimized casual builds, though NB probably does it fastest.

MetallicMonk

Yes balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

There it is again! The overpowered spammable burst heal that every class has, messing up the combat system. Every class can also delete unoptimized casual builds, though NB probably does it fastest.

Definitely not a fan of the access to crazy burst heals every class except sorc has, though nb having one of the best ones is even more stupid because of the role the class is supposed to fill, and yes NB is the fastest no debate. NB can also delete optimized high-end builds.

Also they have access to an insane amount of good buffs and debuffs inside of their class kit, from good class skills.

Very obvious how forgiving they've made the class after playing magsorc for a bit and logging back on a NB.

Sergykid

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

Factors other than being a nightblade are in play here. I play magblade in PVP, for 7 years, using mostly nightblade skills. I have never hit anyone in PVP with numbers like that, never. I feel lucky if it hits 10k, it's usually less and IF it lands. More often than not, it is dodged.

Also, I have never, in 7 years of Cyrodiil, been hit with those numbers from a spectral bow.

not being toxic but mate this is a personal issue, we all get hit by numbers like this consistently from high end pvp nightblade players

in 7 light armor pieces and with zero defenses? i don't remember ever getting hit by more than 12k which was few days ago, and that after incap by 25k hp nbs.

op might have been hit by some vamp toggle titanborn set with archer's mind set, bloodthirsty jewels, while him having half health or less and zero defenses.
in such a case it could have been anything like a frags or overload or even a boosted whip

idk how it is on EU but on NA when you duel in the duel spot or que into high mmr bgs you very often get hit like the op did by a nb with 35k hp and 30k res who can brawl with you. there are many many many 20k + bow compilations of tanky nbs hitting other good players for over half their hp.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/64l8Z8LyxCw

heres 1 for you

i have like 100 more clips i can link if you wanna see more.

i was speaking from high mmr bgs, and against nbs that i know.

the video u linked shows random overland which can have lots of variables, wouldn't call it against "good players". There's a lot of missing info, what buffs and debuffs the target had and going xvx it's easy for a nb to go glass cannon

as i said i didn't see higher than 12k in bgs from proper nbs, and i have just regular defense buffs not sets

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

React wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit that hard in PvP, even if the target has zero resist. It's nearly the same damage as pre-nerf Oakensoul heavy attacks. But let's pretend that ~30k crits are perfectly fine.

Also, many scenarios exist where you can't block, dodge, or even notice the telegraph. Regardless of your skill level.

As far as a 1v1 goes, a nightblade can only guarantee an unblocked assassin's will by comboing an off balance CC into it. The minimum travel time ensures that you have sufficient time to break free and dodge roll or block it, in cases where you're stunned first. It quite literally has more counterplay than almost any other ability in the game.

If the "other scenarios" you're referencing are lag, that isn't something that can/should be balanced around.

A 30k oakensoul inferno heavy from a guy 40 meters away in stealth isn't even close to the same thing as a 27.8k bow proc.

First off, the heavy attack was hitting you without applying any debuffs to you first. It cost no resources, had no prerequisite conditions for use, and was often invisible + had no audio queue. Additionally if it missed, they could simply try again. They literally would press corrosive, then hold down left click until you died.

That 27.8k bow you took was fully counterable. You first got hit by a blockable & dodgeable ult with cast time(incap), and then failed to block or dodge the will within the next 5 seconds. I'm not trying to be toxic - but this was an issue of failing to counterplay.

1v1 is not a valid PVP scenario in this game.

Xv1 scenario is more likely and classes without scalable defenses will always struggle. I am not sure how top PVP'ers don't get this.

Old Ball of lightning, NB cloak, shimmering shield, templar bubble (pre nerf) are some examples. If your class lacks one lets not talk about counterplay.
You can't keep rolling 100% of the time like stamblade while anticipating 30k bow procs at you while getting zerged.

Nevidyra

Yes balanced

Have you tried blocking or rolling an extremely telegraphed ability that has a long travel time even in melee distance, allowing counterplay? There is a Templar player who posted a screenshot of a 28k POTL crit which you cannot block or roll. NB is balanced.

Melzo

No not balanced

Arrow nb hits a lot. Either you need to weaken this skill or remove other modifiers that affect burst damage. Unfortunately, nb is the only class that combines additional modifiers well. This is a guild of fighters with a 5% bonus when you backstab and 300 spell damage from vampirism and a mythical necklace, also 10% after leaving invisibility and 3000 penetration and 10% to critical damage and 1300 to crit chance. I don't like that vampirism is literally made for nb. In the first two stages, it allows you to have 100% movement in stealth mode and 300 spell damage. No class has as much benefit from the first two skills. Most take stage 3 to reduce damage, but the bonuses of the first two stages are much more useful than stage 3vampir for any other class.

It's unfair that regular passives are more useful for nb than for any other class, it also gave him a 10% damage bonus.

As a result, you can let this class have all of these passive skills, but reduce arrow damage, or remove these modifiers from general skills. Otherwise, why are they needed? What would NB use only them?? I'm completely amazed by this. Now I log in as a sorcerer, varden or necromancer. I don't shoot from behind and rarely get the 5% damage bonus. I don't use a cloud that loses 300 spell damage and stealth at 100% speed is useless for me. The latter is practically useless for everyone.

Literally nb only uses it all. Why just do a bow that deals 27 thousand damage. Give it a button to kill everyone. And although the NB bombers in Cyrodiil practically do it.

This is some nonsense. Have some of the best healings. The strongest class 1 vs 1. The strongest bomber. Has escape skills. Why only 10 percent then? They gave him all 70... After all, he is so weak.

I decided to blow the dust off my nb. And freaked out from his damage. Of course, not all nb are strong. But those who understand how to abuse all this achieve impressive results ((

axi

There is one simple way to balance nb without dmg nerf. Just make it that after each assasins will usage the caster places a mark on enemy and for 10+ seconds or until enemy he marked die that nb have movement speed and healing reduced both of which cannot be cleansed. The issue isnt with the damage but with the fact nightblades are completly not affaraid to engage combat with full dmg setup because they have so many survival and escape tools atm. Assasins will should be high risk high reward ability that You time out perfectly to nuke enemy but if You fail You pay the consequences not just simply walk away and build up another burst in next few seconds.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

1v1 is not a valid PVP scenario in this game

This has been said a lot over the years and it is foolish. Within a 30v30 brawl, I can move such that I turn the fight for myself into a series of 1v1s, and with 30 opponents to choose from, I can chop down weaker targets 1 by 1 helping my faction get the numbers advantage so we can zerg down the stronger targets and win the objective.