Class Access to Named Buffs/Debuffs

MashmalloMan

Score is just based on ZOS's standardization of major = x2 value of minor and not necessarily a representation of power which is unquantifiable and pretty subjective. E.g. Major Resolve and Heroism are valued the same, but Heroism is much more uncommon and effects gameplay more drastically. Resolve is esentially required for any pvp build, so it's not considered a bonus like Heroism would be.

I primarily looked at doing this analysis because I felt this was a pain point for Sorc, the data seems to support that, but what surprised me was the results for Necro and NB. NB has been overloaded the past year or so to the point where they've surpassed Warden which was originally designed as the one man army, jack of all trades, master of none type of class. Templar and DK seem to be in a solid place as middle ground. Necro is just as low as Sorc, but they're mostly missing self buffs with great access to important debuffs.

The location of the buffs is important too. When they're attached to must have class skills they're obtained passively, skill archetypes for armor/sustain/burst/delayed burst/spammables/dots/cheap ultimates. Eg. Warden's getting Breach from their burst skill, Brutality/Sorcery from their sustain skill, Berserk from their movement skill, Mending from their passive, Protection from their armor skill, Vulnerability from their dot and Savagery/Prophecy from their hot.

Sorc in comparison has Sorcery from their hot and Expedition from their Armor skill, but none of the bread and butter skills they use give anything named. Bound Armaments, Curse, Crystal Frags/Weapon, Streak, Fury, Dark Deal/Exchange, Non Ult Pets, Lightning Flood, and Hardened Ward (Empowered Ward is too weak to bother with). Trying to slot simple effects like Major Breach and Savagery/Prophecy requires losing skill slots for Caltrops+Camo Hunter or potion flexibility, to which we just don't have the space for on a class expected to double slot pets and 4-5 damage skills to kill anything.

So ZOS, throw a bone to Sorc and Necro. Maybe Savagery/Prophecy on Curse, Brutality/Sorcery on Skeletal Mage.. something. I don't know. I've met Sorc mains that didn't know we have Major Vitality via Restraining Prison because no one uses the thing. The fact that a common Mag Sorc pvp build in 2022 still uses Mighty Chudan and Spell Power Pots instead of Boundless Storm and Surge is pretty telling - a setup that literally doesn't have a single named buff/debuff in class.

For other class mains, did this highlight anything for you? Also, if I missed anything, let me know.

PhoenixGrey

Do you know nightblades are the only class with lots of exceptions to ZOS's self imposed balancing rules including battle spirit ?

This is a great list but this whole game has been revolving around stamblade for the last 2.5 years so all the stats are kind of irrelevant because the lead designers play just that one class

BasP

Thank you for making this analysis. Personally, I wouldn't mind if all classes had access to at least Major Prophecy/Savagery and Brutality/Sorcery without relying on potions or weapon skills, even if it'd perhaps lead to more homogenization of the classes.

I mostly play solo with a Stamina Warden or Frost Warden, both using the Netch, Lotos Blossom and Deep Fissure, and I really like how the class gives easy access to arguably the most important buffs and debuff I need. The same goes for my StamDK and to a lesser extent my Stamblade. Though for the latter I'd prefer it if Major Brutality/Sorcery would be added to Siphoning Strikes instead of Drain Power.

Coincidentally I was doing some Scrying on the Magcro I hardly use yesterday and was thinking that it'd be nice if Major Brutality/Sorcery was added to the Skeleton Mage as well. Considering the Necro apparently has the least amount of total effects, perhaps either Major or Minor Savagery/Prophecy could be added to Flame Skull too, like Biting Jabs provides Major Brutality/Sorcery for a Stamplar.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Score is just based on ZOS's standardization of major = x2 value of minor and not necessarily a representation of power which is unquantifiable and pretty subjective. E.g. Major Resolve and Heroism are valued the same, but Heroism is much more uncommon and effects gameplay more drastically. Resolve is esentially required for any pvp build, so it's not considered a bonus like Heroism would be.

I primarily looked at doing this analysis because I felt this was a pain point for Sorc, the data seems to support that, but what surprised me was the results for Necro and NB. NB has been overloaded the past year or so to the point where they've surpassed Warden which was originally designed as the one man army, jack of all trades, master of none type of class. Templar and DK seem to be in a solid place as middle ground. Necro is just as low as Sorc, but they're mostly missing self buffs with great access to important debuffs.

The location of the buffs is important too. When they're attached to must have class skills they're obtained passively, skill archetypes for armor/sustain/burst/delayed burst/spammables/dots/cheap ultimates. Eg. Warden's getting Breach from their burst skill, Brutality/Sorcery from their sustain skill, Berserk from their movement skill, Mending from their passive, Protection from their armor skill, Vulnerability from their dot and Savagery/Prophecy from their hot.

Sorc in comparison has Sorcery from their hot and Expedition from their Armor skill, but none of the bread and butter skills they use give anything named. Bound Armaments, Curse, Crystal Frags/Weapon, Streak, Fury, Dark Deal/Exchange, Non Ult Pets, Lightning Flood, and Hardened Ward (Empowered Ward is too weak to bother with). Trying to slot simple effects like Major Breach and Savagery/Prophecy requires losing skill slots for Caltrops+Camo Hunter or potion flexibility, to which we just don't have the space for on a class expected to double slot pets and 4-5 damage skills to kill anything.

So ZOS, throw a bone to Sorc and Necro. Maybe Savagery/Prophecy on Curse, Brutality/Sorcery on Skeletal Mage.. something. I don't know. I've met Sorc mains that didn't know we have Major Vitality via Restraining Prison because no one uses the thing. The fact that a common Mag Sorc pvp build in 2022 still uses Mighty Chudan and Spell Power Pots instead of Boundless Storm and Surge is pretty telling - a setup that literally doesn't have a single named buff/debuff in class.

For other class mains, did this highlight anything for you? Also, if I missed anything, let me know.

This is very well done and extremely telling about the favoritism towards certain classes (nb) shown by the devs. I agree that it has been an extreme pain point for sorcs (magsorc in particular), but I think the reason it has been less of a pain point for necro (outside of major sorc/brut) is that necro gets a lot of unique buffs for slotting their skills and from their passives as well as access to a lot of rare buffs/debuffs such as major vulnerability etc, so the lack of total buffs/debuffs is less noticeable since they will always have a niche effect they can bring to the group.

rauyran

Would be interested to see this done again for group buffs provided by each class

Firstmep

This spreadsheet doesn't really tell the whole story, how these buffs and debuffs are sourced for each class can be very different.
For example, templar get major sorcery and brutality on 1 morph of a melee spammable, while sorcerers have it on a dedicated skill, with some healing thrown in.
Minor recoveries on nb come from their dot/hot that also gives major expedition on top, meanwhile templars is on a skill that has literally 0 other function(radiant aura).
Dragonknights have to spend resources for major mending and a skill slot, wardens get it passively when its needed the most.

This is just a few examples, but this is why spreadsheet balancing doesnt work.

Functionality is every bit as important as numbers.
Like, how do you quantify streak?

Anyway, yes sorc needs buffs, and nbs are very strong right now, but I really dont like this approach personally.

Ankael07

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

Urzigurumash

Excellent post.

Brutality on Archer and Savagery on Siphon would be a massive boost to Necro in PvP, to both offensive power and class identity. Sure the two skills aren't strong in PvP in themselves, but the extra Death Knell and easier access to Dismember would be quite nice and make the class more rewarding to play, and the extra summon and tether increase the thematic aesthetics.

Anyhow, you asked about other Main's takeaways, as a StamDK Main for sure it's that Major Fortitude is next to useless. We'd all happily trade this for a Minor version of any other buff - or better yet, a rework to Fortitude, assuming there's no forthcoming adjustment to HP Regen. Most all PvP StamDK have lost the Major Endurance and Minor Vitality we used to have with Green Dragon Blood in favor of the much stronger Coag, which makes the irrelevance of Fortitude even more conspicuous to a StamDK Main when looking at this chart. Yes these 2 Major buffs are easily sourced from Pots but these specific Pots are best saved for emergencies, so you can't have 100% uptime on them as easily as you can with Dragonblood. Also gets to the irrelevance of the HP Regen component of Elder Dragon, but that's a concern shared with all 4 base classes.

Dojohoda

The spreadsheet does not represent the amount of buffs a character could actually have on a build.

Please note that all of the buffs that a class offers cannot necessarily be accessed on a single build. A buff that is tied a morph, for instance, is not always on both morphs.

I made a similar list of buffs years ago on a spreadsheet and being a nightblade main, knew that all buffs for nightblade are not available on a build.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Sure they may not be accessible all on one build but it sure looks like “play how you want” is a hell of a lot easier on some classes.

The only saving grace on Templar right now is jbeaming people because it’s hilariously over-tuned. The stamplar I played years ago ceases to exist in anyway with this last batch of changes.

So yea like many long term players sub dropped and log into jbeam and wolf out every so often. I don’t even feel like I have the same group utility I used to as a Templar, it’s been a weird few patches.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Clearly we need to nerf sorc. LOL

Its funny, I knew sorc was going to be low on the list, and NB would be high, but Necro surprised me a bit. Necro makes sense as what they lack in raw numbers of buffs, they do have some of the good ones.

Sorc is a disaster at the moment on so many levels.

Dojohoda

Sorcerer had the fewest buffs when I made a spreadsheet approx 5 years ago and it was a strong class at the time. I'm not convinced that named buffs are a great thing to have. Unnamed buffs are the best for classes and offer a player more build variety since having a named buff "onboard" reduces some choices because the gear or potion used might also have the same buff. The named buffs one might want to have on a class are a rare named buffs.

Turtle_Bot

Dojohoda wrote: »

Sorcerer had the fewest buffs when I made a spreadsheet approx 5 years ago and it was a strong class at the time. I'm not convinced that named buffs are a great thing to have. Unnamed buffs are the best for classes and offer a player more build variety since having a named buff "onboard" reduces some choices because the gear or potion used might also have the same buff. The named buffs one might want to have on a class are a rare named buffs.

While this is true, it does depend on how that named buff is sourced. for example, if the common buff is sourced via a staple ability, e.g. a class heal/spammable/group utility/strong DoT that allows for very easy upkeep of the buff then it is a good thing. It's when a class needs to go out of its way to obtain a common named buff is when it becomes a bad thing to have.

Take sorcs, plars and dks with major sorcery/brutality for example.
Plars have access to major sorcery/brutality on their main spammable (jabs), so by simply using their main damage dealing attack, they get to keep that buff up the whole time.
DK gets access to the buff from a separate skill that also grants it to the entire group as well, while getting to choose between double the standard 30s buff duration making it even easier to keep up for lower overall dps loss, or also gaining empower for the duration.
Sorcs get access to the buff that also takes the additional global cooldown that the dk's buff has, but it doesn't provide group support or a longer duration. The payoff for slotting that skill outside of obtaining the buff is to get a small amount of healing upon dealing critical damage, which is very clunky for a passive heal (HoT) in pvp and very niche in pve, especially coordinated pve.

The same can be applied to sorc, plar and dk with the major resolve buff.
Plar gains the buff on a skill that provides passive healing over time as well as sustain for the plar as well as the group that are within the area, with the downside being that they have to stay within that location to keep the buff up. This is less of an issue with the classes other abilities also playing into this playstyle by providing mitigation, utility and healing while "defending the fort".
DK gets this buff from an ability that also provides an AoE DoT upon cast as well as providing passive damage return while active, so fitting this ability into the rotation is fairly easy as it provides a decent DoT and other passive damage upon use that makes it mostly worth using the global cd.
Sorcs gain a sticky DoT (that got nerfed heavily in the last update on top of the skill itself getting nerfed) and also gain minor OR major expedition, both of which aren't strong buffs for pve outside of maybe score pushing at which point RaT/channeled acceleration gives so much more since it gives minor force + the speed which is a lot more damage than the DoT that lightning form provides as well as granting snare removal for pvp scenarios which is invaluable on any class.

Sorc was strong that long ago because of a lot of things that were very different and much simpler back then.
- max stats mattered a lot more compared to raw damage than they do today for everything, including healing, damage output and in the case of sorcerer, mitigation through shields.
- CP was much less impactful in terms of providing free damage/mitigation/speed/utility/sustain
- the jewelry traits back then were limited to max stats (health, stam or mag), making it difficult to buff other stats such as raw damage, speed, mitigation, sustain and execute among others which also fed into the whole max stats mattering a lot more than raw damage of back then as well.
- and lastly, buffs/debuffs were a lot less potent back then and much fewer of them available as well (berserk, vulnerability, protection, force, heroism etc. either didn't exist back then or they were prohibitively hard to obtain or had super short up times that didn't warrant widespread use).
Sorcs are no longer anywhere near that strong anymore because their kit got left back in that era, while the game changed around them, and every other class kit was updated (or just naturally worked) to suit the new raw damage and buff/debuff-based combat and even the hybridization changes that followed.

The sorc buff skills just don't do enough anymore to warrant a slot on an already overcrowded skill bar (they would be better if the bars weren't so crowded by the pets, but would still need a bit of improvement to bring them up to par with other class buff skills), so the most common way to build a sorc (for pvp) while still obtaining these common buffs is to forgo the skills entirely and slot chudan (for resolve) and spell power pots (for sorcery) which prevents use of the far surperior heroism pots and damage buffing/proc damage monster helms, or (for pve) give up 1 bar entirely with oakensoul for those 2 buffs alongside many more (many of which the class doesn't have access to at all in the kit) at the cost of 2-3 skills from a back bar and the loss of the far superior front bar + back bar + mythic + trainee setup, that gives a secondary 5 piece set bonus or monster set or another mythic that could provide other utility or higher damage. It's crazy that giving up so much versatility in terms of skill, gear set and potion options, just to get these 2 common buffs is almost mandatory on the class now, when all the other classes don't have this issue (outside of necro needing to find major sorcery/brutality from non-class abilities, but necro does have access to a lot of other rare and unique buffs/debuffs to compensate for this) as well as most other classes having access to a wide range of other strong, rarer and even unique buffs/debuffs as well as easy access to these 2 common buffs.

I deliberately left nb out of the comparison, because the devs have favoured that one class so much over the past 1-2 years that it's not even a comparison at all anymore (for proof go look at OP's chart where nb has twice as many or more named buffs/debuffs than every other class outside of warden, and the chart doesn't even account for unique and stackable buffs/debuffs of which nb has an insane amount on their active skills alone not counting passives).

fizzylu

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sorcs are no longer anywhere near that strong anymore because their kit got left back in that era, while the game changed around them, and every other class kit was updated (or just naturally worked) to suit the new raw damage and buff/debuff-based combat and even the hybridization changes that followed.

THIS. Sorcerer has been heavily neglected for years now. My main, my only character, is a sorcerer. I have played every class to max level and never really enjoyed them, but I understand how they all fundamentally work. I noticed years ago that sorcerer's were being left behind in the changes they make to combat. It's not just numbers and skills not doing as much damage as they should do.... it's the fact that their toolkit and the way they function no longer holds up well compared to other classes. I cannot even stress how much more work it feels like I'm doing compared to other classes and yet I get less out of it. I also have bar room issues because of pets, shields, and buffs. It wasn't as bad back before Greymoor where I could easily run no shield and no pet.... but sadly these days, I'm forced to use both to even have a chance at standing my ground. I even use Chudan's because I have no room for Lightning Form and cannot imagine sacrificing an ability like Channeled Acceleration or Dark Conversion in order to fit it. It's just really not a good time haha

Amottica

I think it is also important to compare what buffs they share with the raid group vs just looking at what buffs they have access to.

It is also good to take into account Meta builds since some skills that provide buffs are not really worthy to use for solid PvE or PvP builds.

Dojohoda

Sorcs do need some love; I'm not denying that and I have said as much in this forum this year. However, Sorcs have always been on the low end for having named buffs attached to the class. Their damage loss has nothing to do with buffs they never had in the same way that nightblade does not shine in pve even though it seems to have a lot of buffs. Eso logs tells the story better than I can. Choose one of the trials and look though the past few updates. This shows the classes that perform well in grouped veteran content. The chart of buffs per class pictured in this thread certainly does not predict what appears in the logs; other factors are in play.
Link goes to esologs - sunspire - veteran - last boss - update 35
[ https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=45&difficulty=121 ]
I chose Sunspire because one can look through many updates and because players are still running the trial for achievements and such.

Below is the unimpressive list of buffs my pve build has on my magblade dd.

I happen to be in game at the moment. I looked at my magika nightblade dps build and the following are the nightblade named buffs that are included in the build:

1. Major brutality and sorcery (from sap essence) kind of useless, but I could get that from a potion
2. Minor Main (from Dark Shade) This is sort of helpful for the group but not unique as 5 other classes can provide it.
3. Minor Expedition (from Concealed Weapon) This is new.
4. Major Expedition (from Twisting Path) This can speed up the group if they run in the path.
5. Major Resolve ( a passive from casting a shadow ability)
6. Minor Savagery (This is a unique-to-nightblade passive that occurs if I do critical damage and, in turn, this will increase weapon crit rating for the group.
7. Reave (from slotting Incap) Reave is not in the chart. It restores 100 mag and stam when light or heavy attacking an enemy that is afflicted with a negative effect.

I cannot access the other named buffs with this build unless I switch out something, but I would not gain anything extra by doing so.

Turtle_Bot

Dojohoda wrote: »

Sorcs do need some love; I'm not denying that and I have said as much in this forum this year. However, Sorcs have always been on the low end for having named buffs attached to the class. Their damage loss has nothing to do with buffs they never had in the same way that nightblade does not shine in pve even though it seems to have a lot of buffs. Eso logs tells the story better than I can. Choose one of the trials and look though the past few updates. This shows the classes that perform well in grouped veteran content. The chart of buffs per class pictured in this thread certainly does not predict what appears in the logs; other factors are in play.
Link goes to esologs - sunspire - veteran - last boss - update 35
[ https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=45&difficulty=121 ]
I chose Sunspire because one can look through many updates and because players are still running the trial for achievements and such.

Below is the unimpressive list of buffs my pve build has on my magblade dd.

I happen to be in game at the moment. I looked at my magika nightblade dps build and the following are the nightblade named buffs that are included in the build:

1. Major brutality and sorcery (from sap essence) kind of useless, but I could get that from a potion
2. Minor Main (from Dark Shade) This is sort of helpful for the group but not unique as 5 other classes can provide it.
3. Minor Expedition (from Concealed Weapon) This is new.
4. Major Expedition (from Twisting Path) This can speed up the group if they run in the path.
5. Major Resolve ( a passive from casting a shadow ability)
6. Minor Savagery (This is a unique-to-nightblade passive that occurs if I do critical damage and, in turn, this will increase weapon crit rating for the group.
7. Reave (from slotting Incap) Reave is not in the chart. It restores 100 mag and stam when light or heavy attacking an enemy that is afflicted with a negative effect.

I cannot access the other named buffs with this build unless I switch out something, but I would not gain anything extra by doing so.

clicked your link and it shows that nb and sorc are on par with each other at ranks 28 and 29 (well stamblade and stamsorc at least), meanwhile magblade first appears on the list at rank 47, while the first magsorc appears on the list at rank 81 (nearly double the first appearance of magblade).

The main issue is that while the classes seem to be on par for pve (at least the stam versions are anyway), from a pvp perspective, nb (both mag and stam) is far and away one of the top specs in the game (alongside stamden) while magsorc is so far behind at the bottom of the list that the class has all but disappeared from pvp, especially open world.

Like I said before, sorc used to be top tier despite minimal named buffs because the core combat mechanics of the game, which revolved around max stats, were much more functional with the sorc class kit and much better utlitised by the sorc class kit, while the modern game favors heavily the other classes such as plar, dk, cro and nb who are able to lean into the raw damage mechanics of the modern game much better than sorc can. Like I said, sorc (mag especially) is still trying to use the 2017 game mechanics while every other class is using the 2022 game mechanics, including nb.

The main reason dk, plar and cro top the charts for trials logs is that those classes all have very strong passive AoE damage that allows them to inflate their damage values when clearing out groups of enemies. NB at least has the flexibility in its skill bars to run the out of class AoE abilities that allow it to somewhat compete in that AoE damage, while sorc is relying extremely heavily on deadric prey to inflate the pet damage numbers to outperform on single target but that still leaves it only barely on the same overall level as a nb which has a much more flexible kit and that is for stam, mag is in a much worse spot because it doesn't have the flexibility and it's single target dps falls behind even stamsorc too (5 stamsorcs are above the first magsorc on your list).

As for an unimpressive list of accessible buffs, unless a sorc is using oakensoul, the accessible buffs on the class are:
- major sorcery/brutality (crit surge or pots)
- major resolve lightning form/hurricane
- major OR minor expedition (cannot have both using only the class kit)
- minor prophecy (the unique-to-sorc passive that requires casting a dark magic ability to trigger, grants this buff to the group)

The list also gets vulnerability wrong (it is a chance to apply it from dealing shock damage, so should be a ? symbol, not an x symbol). Major berserk should also be listed as a ? as it requires an ally to activate the synergy from the ultimate to get the buff, the class does not get that buff inherently just by activating an ability. To access the other named buffs that the class has also requires switching to abilities that are either entirely useless or don't provide anything extra for the class that the already slotted abilities add. The class would also have to give up the slots taken up by the pets (see class dots) or their spammables on 1 of the bars making the build so much worse.

Also, if you swap sap essence for power extraction, that inflicts minor cowardice on enemies hit as well as granting you minor courage on top of the major sorcery/brutality buffs. your given set up also grants you and allies minor intellect and minor endurance from refreshing path, something that sorcs can only get by swapping something out for their gutted empowered ward shield morph which again means they lose more damage by taking another skill out to get those 2 named buffs.
so, your list should be including the following named buffs as well
minor courage
minor intellect
minor endurance
minor cowardice

That list of accessible nb buffs is looking pretty impressive by comparison.

MashmalloMan

Ankael07 wrote: »

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

Lol woops, maybe. Not deliberate. Took a lot of time to setup and ctrl + f to do so, will edit when I can.

I did say to correct me if I messed something up. Gave me a good chuckle that I did that though lol.

Edit: Fixed, updated image.

MashmalloMan

Firstmep wrote: »

This spreadsheet doesn't really tell the whole story, how these buffs and debuffs are sourced for each class can be very different.
For example, templar get major sorcery and brutality on 1 morph of a melee spammable, while sorcerers have it on a dedicated skill, with some healing thrown in.
Minor recoveries on nb come from their dot/hot that also gives major expedition on top, meanwhile templars is on a skill that has literally 0 other function(radiant aura).
Dragonknights have to spend resources for major mending and a skill slot, wardens get it passively when its needed the most.

This is just a few examples, but this is why spreadsheet balancing doesnt work.

Functionality is every bit as important as numbers.
Like, how do you quantify streak?

Anyway, yes sorc needs buffs, and nbs are very strong right now, but I really dont like this approach personally.

I fully agree, it doesn't mean this data can't be useful to some extent. We can argue all day about subjective things like whether or not you find X skill or Y effect or Z passive to be useful. Streak like you said, is a pillar of what makes Sorcs work. Without it, they would have a difficult time suriving because they don't have the defence necessary to do so.

E.g. Minor Mending may not be on Necro, but they have an unamed passive for 8% healing done if they have a negative effect on themselves. We all know based on Mara's Balm how frequent that is. It's esentially the same thing and the chart doesn't account for that. DK's get 12% unamed healing received. Extremely powerful, esentially active all the time. List goes on and on.

This is by no means a representation of how well or balanced a class is, but it's useful data nonetheless. Just looking at Sorc, they match the level of Necro, but if you look at where a lot of the effects are, most Mag Sorcs won't get to use a single 1 of those effects. Ease of access is important. As I put in my OP and another comment in the thread, if effects are attached to bread and butter skills that make a class what they are or damage skills, they're typically active for most players.

acastanza_ESO

Why is the combat design team allowing crap like this to go on? The fact that nightblade hasn't been hit with a sledgehammer this upcoming patch proves that they are horribly biased. This is the kind of thing that you can see even in a spreadsheet so where is even that kind of half-[self-snip]ed balance?

Nightblade needs to be made to follow the rules that other classes have to be designed by, and Sorc and Necro must be brought up to par with the rest (although considering real access to buffs based on what skills they're on, Sorc desperately needs this even more than necro does).

gariondavey

Very interesting analysis.
Love ya mash

Zekka

Ankael07 wrote: »

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

And half the other debuffs are on joke skills (PvP wise) lmao.
Major Breach is on the PvE morph of graveyard, a whopping 2 sec Major Protection per corpse on Deaden Pain a completely unused morph since the major/minor system nerf, Minor Vulnerability on Agony Totem and it's on a synergy another player has to activate, Minor Maim on Grave Grasp enough said, and like you said necro doesn't have access to Minor Defile.

ESO_Nightingale

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Score is just based on ZOS's standardization of major = x2 value of minor and not necessarily a representation of power which is unquantifiable and pretty subjective. E.g. Major Resolve and Heroism are valued the same, but Heroism is much more uncommon and effects gameplay more drastically. Resolve is esentially required for any pvp build, so it's not considered a bonus like Heroism would be.

I primarily looked at doing this analysis because I felt this was a pain point for Sorc, the data seems to support that, but what surprised me was the results for Necro and NB. NB has been overloaded the past year or so to the point where they've surpassed Warden which was originally designed as the one man army, jack of all trades, master of none type of class. Templar and DK seem to be in a solid place as middle ground. Necro is just as low as Sorc, but they're mostly missing self buffs with great access to important debuffs.

The location of the buffs is important too. When they're attached to must have class skills they're obtained passively, skill archetypes for armor/sustain/burst/delayed burst/spammables/dots/cheap ultimates. Eg. Warden's getting Breach from their burst skill, Brutality/Sorcery from their sustain skill, Berserk from their movement skill, Mending from their passive, Protection from their armor skill, Vulnerability from their dot and Savagery/Prophecy from their hot.

Sorc in comparison has Sorcery from their hot and Expedition from their Armor skill, but none of the bread and butter skills they use give anything named. Bound Armaments, Curse, Crystal Frags/Weapon, Streak, Fury, Dark Deal/Exchange, Non Ult Pets, Lightning Flood, and Hardened Ward (Empowered Ward is too weak to bother with). Trying to slot simple effects like Major Breach and Savagery/Prophecy requires losing skill slots for Caltrops+Camo Hunter or potion flexibility, to which we just don't have the space for on a class expected to double slot pets and 4-5 damage skills to kill anything.

So ZOS, throw a bone to Sorc and Necro. Maybe Savagery/Prophecy on Curse, Brutality/Sorcery on Skeletal Mage.. something. I don't know. I've met Sorc mains that didn't know we have Major Vitality via Restraining Prison because no one uses the thing. The fact that a common Mag Sorc pvp build in 2022 still uses Mighty Chudan and Spell Power Pots instead of Boundless Storm and Surge is pretty telling - a setup that literally doesn't have a single named buff/debuff in class.

For other class mains, did this highlight anything for you? Also, if I missed anything, let me know.

This is very well done and extremely telling about the favoritism towards certain classes (nb) shown by the devs. I agree that it has been an extreme pain point for sorcs (magsorc in particular), but I think the reason it has been less of a pain point for necro (outside of major sorc/brut) is that necro gets a lot of unique buffs for slotting their skills and from their passives as well as access to a lot of rare buffs/debuffs such as major vulnerability etc, so the lack of total buffs/debuffs is less noticeable since they will always have a niche effect they can bring to the group.

[snip] instead of designing actual effects for class skills they've just been slapping on random buffs/debuffs for years on end.

[edited for bashing]

Turtle_Bot

Zekka wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

And half the other debuffs are on joke skills (PvP wise) lmao.
Major Breach is on the PvE morph of graveyard, a whopping 2 sec Major Protection per corpse on Deaden Pain a completely unused morph since the major/minor system nerf, Minor Vulnerability on Agony Totem and it's on a synergy another player has to activate, Minor Maim on Grave Grasp enough said, and like you said necro doesn't have access to Minor Defile.

same with sorc lol, major vitality on an unusable morph of an already almost never used skill (restraining prison) that lasts for a whopping 2 seconds up to 8 depending if you manage to immobilise the max of 6 enemies with that skill somehow, major berserk on an expensive ultimate that got undeservedly nerfed in U35 that requires an ally to use the synergy making it unobtainable in solo play, minor vulnerability is a chance to happen on inflicting the concussed status effect which is a chance to happen when dealing shock damage (I.e. its a chance within a chance to get that debuff) so it should be a ? symbol and not an x symbol for that effect just like what op did for breach on sorc.

@MashmalloMan please fix this up for vulnerability on the sorc column, the class does not have a guaranteed access to this debuff as it is a chance to occur when inflicting concussed status which is a chance to occur on dealing shock damage, so it fits within your definition for the ? symbol below the table. Please also look into how major berserk is counted, requiring an ally to get that buff from the synergy and a chance to not get it at all as it goes to the closest allies and is not guaranteed on the atro's caster, especially if out of range which a sorc is supposed to be being a ranged dd.

AlterBlika

Comparing NBs and Sorcs sheets it seems to me Sorcerer is a mere shadow of Nightblade right now. Like, everything that Sorcs have NBs have better.

I_killed_Vivec

I'm not sure how much value this chart is because it doesn't show how many of these a character can actually get, and what they have to do to get it.

Apologies for the restricted example, but my main is a StamDK and it's what I'm most familiar with...

In order to get Major Savagery (and Prophesy), I have to use Flames of Oblivion - a magica skill.
In order to get Major Resolve I need to use Spiked Armor (plus morphs) - a magica skill.
In order to get Major Brutality and Sorcery (and Empower) I need to use Molten Weapons (plus morphs) - magica again.
In order to get Major Endurance and Minor Vitality I need GDB - magica again, and I prefer the big heal of Coag.

That's too much magica for my stam build, particularly as I'm experimenting with the whip, and want to apply burning with Embers to get the magica refund (plus the heal).

But on the other hand I get Major Breach from Noxious Breath - and that's something a flame MagDK can't get because they'd take Engulfing Flames to boost all their flame damage.

I'm sure that all other classes meet similar restrictions in real life builds. So the question should not be about what is available, but what is available in a meaningful build. Of course then it all gets a lot more complicated when you have to consider mag/stam, ranged vs melee, playing style, etc.

MashmalloMan

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zekka wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

And half the other debuffs are on joke skills (PvP wise) lmao.
Major Breach is on the PvE morph of graveyard, a whopping 2 sec Major Protection per corpse on Deaden Pain a completely unused morph since the major/minor system nerf, Minor Vulnerability on Agony Totem and it's on a synergy another player has to activate, Minor Maim on Grave Grasp enough said, and like you said necro doesn't have access to Minor Defile.

same with sorc lol, major vitality on an unusable morph of an already almost never used skill (restraining prison) that lasts for a whopping 2 seconds up to 8 depending if you manage to immobilise the max of 6 enemies with that skill somehow, major berserk on an expensive ultimate that got undeservedly nerfed in U35 that requires an ally to use the synergy making it unobtainable in solo play, minor vulnerability is a chance to happen on inflicting the concussed status effect which is a chance to happen when dealing shock damage (I.e. its a chance within a chance to get that debuff) so it should be a ? symbol and not an x symbol for that effect just like what op did for breach on sorc.

@MashmalloMan please fix this up for vulnerability on the sorc column, the class does not have a guaranteed access to this debuff as it is a chance to occur when inflicting concussed status which is a chance to occur on dealing shock damage, so it fits within your definition for the ? symbol below the table. Please also look into how major berserk is counted, requiring an ally to get that buff from the synergy and a chance to not get it at all as it goes to the closest allies and is not guaranteed on the atro's caster, especially if out of range which a sorc is supposed to be being a ranged dd.

I'm not going to bother getting into the nitty gritty of how easy or hard a synergy is to proc for major berserk when it comes to the table, I feel that is too subjective and should be left up to discussion. Accessibility from common skills like spammables vs uncommon skills like Restraining Prison is very important, but i didn't feel the need to quantity it.

This is not a class balance table and should be taken with a grain of salt. The point is, the class has access within their kit.

For Minor Vulnerability, it's guaranteed from the charged status effect, which is guaranteed from the Charged Atronach morph.

MashmalloMan

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'm not sure how much value this chart is because it doesn't show how many of these a character can actually get, and what they have to do to get it.

Apologies for the restricted example, but my main is a StamDK and it's what I'm most familiar with...

In order to get Major Savagery (and Prophesy), I have to use Flames of Oblivion - a magica skill.
In order to get Major Resolve I need to use Spiked Armor (plus morphs) - a magica skill.
In order to get Major Brutality and Sorcery (and Empower) I need to use Molten Weapons (plus morphs) - magica again.
In order to get Major Endurance and Minor Vitality I need GDB - magica again, and I prefer the big heal of Coag.

That's too much magica for my stam build, particularly as I'm experimenting with the whip, and want to apply burning with Embers to get the magica refund (plus the heal).

But on the other hand I get Major Breach from Noxious Breath - and that's something a flame MagDK can't get because they'd take Engulfing Flames to boost all their flame damage.

I'm sure that all other classes meet similar restrictions in real life builds. So the question should not be about what is available, but what is available in a meaningful build. Of course then it all gets a lot more complicated when you have to consider mag/stam, ranged vs melee, playing style, etc.

Seems your referring to a PvE example possibly? Named buff/debuff access is primarily a PvP concern as you look to build yourself as a 1 man army. Builds typically aim to have sustain, off resource sustain, mitigation, burst, preasure, utility, health, healing and speed.

For PvE damage dealers in a group, 1 potion and group debuffs/buffs covers everything you need so this whole chart is less of a concern unless you're looking at solo and even 4 man dungeons. It's the entire reason we use raid dummies to compare class DPS to understand what they're capable of on an even playing field.

Ever try using a Sorc on a 3/6m dummy vs a class with innate access to things like major/minor breach, minor berserk, and/or minor vulnerability? It's night and day. Back before raid dummies, Stam DK and Stam NB consistently output more dummy DPS than Stam Sorc because they had access to more named effects passively. The Stam Sorc may have had a larger DPS ceiling under proper circumstances, but most people wouldn't test that far so it just appeared medicore.

Of the skills you listed, both Stam and Mag DKs will use all of them, with the exception of taking Coag instead of GDB most of the time. They're very popular skills and I'd say they're good examples of a class obtaining effects passively instead of going out of their way to slot something.

Edit: well actually, they completely fudged up Empower with no class compensation, so I'm guessing a lot of DKs have unslotted Molten Armaments for Degen, Rally or pots.

MashmalloMan

gariondavey wrote: »

Very interesting analysis.
Love ya mash

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zekka wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

And half the other debuffs are on joke skills (PvP wise) lmao.
Major Breach is on the PvE morph of graveyard, a whopping 2 sec Major Protection per corpse on Deaden Pain a completely unused morph since the major/minor system nerf, Minor Vulnerability on Agony Totem and it's on a synergy another player has to activate, Minor Maim on Grave Grasp enough said, and like you said necro doesn't have access to Minor Defile.

same with sorc lol, major vitality on an unusable morph of an already almost never used skill (restraining prison) that lasts for a whopping 2 seconds up to 8 depending if you manage to immobilise the max of 6 enemies with that skill somehow, major berserk on an expensive ultimate that got undeservedly nerfed in U35 that requires an ally to use the synergy making it unobtainable in solo play, minor vulnerability is a chance to happen on inflicting the concussed status effect which is a chance to happen when dealing shock damage (I.e. its a chance within a chance to get that debuff) so it should be a ? symbol and not an x symbol for that effect just like what op did for breach on sorc.

@MashmalloMan please fix this up for vulnerability on the sorc column, the class does not have a guaranteed access to this debuff as it is a chance to occur when inflicting concussed status which is a chance to occur on dealing shock damage, so it fits within your definition for the ? symbol below the table. Please also look into how major berserk is counted, requiring an ally to get that buff from the synergy and a chance to not get it at all as it goes to the closest allies and is not guaranteed on the atro's caster, especially if out of range which a sorc is supposed to be being a ranged dd.

I'm not going to bother getting into the nitty gritty of how easy or hard a synergy is to proc for major berserk when it comes to the table, I feel that is too subjective and should be left up to discussion. Accessibility from common skills like spammables vs uncommon skills like Restraining Prison is very important, but i didn't feel the need to quantity it.

This is not a class balance table and should be taken with a grain of salt. The point is, the class has access within their kit.

For Minor Vulnerability, it's guaranteed from the charged status effect, which is guaranteed from the Charged Atronach morph.

Fair enough, it is a discussion that needs to be had, however maybe a note at the bottom would help as ease of access is quite important when discussing the access a class has to buffs/debuffs and you touched on this a little bit in your summary below the table. Maybe something like adding an ! or something on buffs that are harder to access for classes (e.g. requires an outside factor to obtain such as an ally using your synergy, or is tied to an otherwise unusable skill, etc).

Would be really interesting to see how the chart changes when accessibility is factored into it. my bet is that nb would look even more overtuned than this chart currently shows.

Pelanora

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ever try using a Sorc on a 3/6m dummy vs a class with innate access to things like major/minor breach, minor berserk, and/or minor vulnerability? It's night and day. Back before raid dummies, Stam DK and Stam NB consistently output more dummy DPS than Stam Sorc because they had access to more named effects passively. The Stam Sorc may have had a larger DPS ceiling under proper circumstances, but most people wouldn't test that far so it just appeared medicore..

Beyond night and day, it's utterly dispririting. Because this level of knowledge is hard to acquire, and you assume the game is built with rules that mean 'it works' so all you have is that somehow you've failed. And then you give up trying.