What is YOUR fix for the fake tank/fake healer issue?

ldzlcs065

I think that tank/healer kicked get longer penalty time might be a viable solution

wilykcat

Assume the players are doing the fake tank and healer just to be funny.

blktauna

Kusto wrote: »

snip
But that would create another problem, way longer queues for normal because not enough tanks. People who complain about fakes think about that for a moment. Alot of posts here say that 9 out of 10 dungeons they got a fake tank. If most of those "tanks" wouldn't queue anymore then YOU would wait for hours.

I do not understand why people feel justified in ruining 3 other people's dungeon run because they feel their time is worth more than anyone else's. You are the problem, not the people who want to slog through as normal to learn and gain the skills/treasure/kit that the dungeon provides. The entitlement is appalling.

if you actually perform some manner of tanking, then my statement doesn't apply to you.

MidniteOwl1913

Kusto wrote: »

It's all about them transmutes. I'm over 2k cp and don't care about xp. But I always need alot of transmutes because I do vet raiding and play all roles. And Zos keeps changing gear and combat every patch so I need to keep fake tanking random normals. If vets dropped double then I would run them instead.
But that would create another problem, way longer queues for normal because not enough tanks. People who complain about fakes think about that for a moment. Alot of posts here say that 9 out of 10 dungeons they got a fake tank. If most of those "tanks" wouldn't queue anymore then YOU would wait for hours.

Okay maybe I would wait, but I'd really like to know what having a real tank is like. I almost never see it.

Kusto

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

It's all about them transmutes. I'm over 2k cp and don't care about xp. But I always need alot of transmutes because I do vet raiding and play all roles. And Zos keeps changing gear and combat every patch so I need to keep fake tanking random normals. If vets dropped double then I would run them instead.
But that would create another problem, way longer queues for normal because not enough tanks. People who complain about fakes think about that for a moment. Alot of posts here say that 9 out of 10 dungeons they got a fake tank. If most of those "tanks" wouldn't queue anymore then YOU would wait for hours.

Okay maybe I would wait, but I'd really like to know what having a real tank is like. I almost never see it.

Then do vet. I've been playing for years and only seen 2 fake tanks. There's so many fakes in normals because they simply don't need real one.

ruengdet2515

For normal if you want quest then solo is best choice.

nDFT not good for questing and wasting time for high CP.

Yes, im high CP.

Soarora

I think more dungeons should just require tanking and healing, eventually in theory people will learn their lesson (and #make healers relevant outside hms). Though, this won’t help random normals. People do random normals for coveted transmute and exp so I see an easy solution… it is not adding more transmute rewards to vet, though there fake roles may run into more issues. I think 1) the meta needs to stop changing every patch and 2) there should be more sources of transmute and/or more transmute given from the current activites. Give 25-50 instead of 10, make the bg transmute crystals give same as dungeon ones instead of literally 1 transmute…

Amottica

Hasenpfote wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

TylerDurden wrote: »

What skills should a real tank be using?

1, "Puncture" or (morphed puncture) 1H and 1shield taunt skill slotted. Ice staff and inner rage will be OK.
But 1H and 1shield is the best.(If you have extra slot and DK class, Unrelenting Grip chain skill
will be useful. But not necessary.)

2, Some damage shield skill slotted (any class skill will be OK)

3, All gold quality heavy armor. (4 piece should be reinforced trait)

4, Must have high resistance without mythic gear.(over 2.7K~)

5, Must have high amount of health (over 40K~).

6, Must have high amount of health recovery. (1.7K~2K)

7, Must slotted defensive Champion Point node, if you're veteran.

8, Eat health and stamina boosting food.

If your character have all those aspect, you're very good tank.

If your character doesn't have taunt skill and not tough guy, and go tank role queue.
Then, some player will kick you instantly. It's totally your fault.

A very good tank does not care about his HP value. He knows how to avoid damage.

200k HP means nothing, if the tank does not know how to block the killing blow.
Even a 20k HP tank can be a good tank.

Several points in that wish list are not used by top tanks, afaik. Top builds will use sets that help the group and make do with whatever resistance they get. I would wear selfish sets for my survival for a random pug, which we are talking about in this thread. Even then, I am not looking at resistance.

Rowjoh

Just organise or go with groups within your guilds.

Guilds have been part of the game since launch and doing the trickier dungeons with like minded co-operative and decent players is one of the best benefits of joining a pve guild in the first place.... they are FREE to join and you can have 5!

All good pve guilds list doing dungeons co-operatively as one of their main activities, so it is nonsensical why anyone would use the group finder for anything other than base game random normals, knowing that it's rife with dishonest, unpleasant and incompetent players and the problems that arise.

It's SO simple.

endgamesmug

Rowjoh wrote: »

Just organise or go with groups within your guilds.

Guilds have been part of the game since launch and doing the trickier dungeons with like minded co-operative and decent players is one of the best benefits of joining a pve guild in the first place.... they are FREE to join and you can have 5!

All good pve guilds list doing dungeons co-operatively as one of their main activities, so it is nonsensical why anyone would use the group finder for anything other than base game random normals, knowing that it's rife with dishonest, unpleasant and incompetent players and the problems that arise.

It's SO simple.

Good on you for finding an active dungeon guild!, ive only ever seen in guildfinder and in zonechat is pve guilds trying to push trials so i mostly ignore them these days may have to have another look see whats changed.😀

Rowjoh

Depends what server you are on I guess - PC EU and NA are awash with decent guilds !

Mastercris91

What is missing in this discussion is the reason why real tanks don’t want to queue. Think about everyone’s role and what they should bring to the table. Lots of “DDs” expect the tank to taunt but get defensive whenever the tanks don’t want to deal with DDs that hardly do any damage. Wanna solve the fake tank and fake healer situation? Solve the fake DDs situation.

endgamesmug

Rowjoh wrote: »

Depends what server you are on I guess - PC EU and NA are awash with decent guilds !

Certainly hasnt been my experience since coming from xbox but sounds like youve had a better experience in this wash of guilds you describe.

Xarc

leave it as it is
no matter what you plan, there will still be fake people

Just see it as a motivation to join a guild.

James-Wayne

They need to build the content either for a specific set of players OR build the content so you dont require the holy trinity, ie if the game detects no healer presence provide healing synergies when a certain mechanic is done.

DMuehlhausen

You can't fix it for normal really.

For vet though scale the original dungeons up in difficulty. To where you have to have a tank and healer to get through them again. I'm not saying make them punishing, but bosses in any dungeon should be a threat. Even if FG1 the goblin boss attack use to one shot people. Make it do that again. Up his HP a little bit, but really move up the damage. Then you have to have a tank and healer to recover from the damage. That's why people can queue as fake tank and healers. You have 4 dps running dungeons now and that should never be the case.

Agenericname

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

It's all about them transmutes. I'm over 2k cp and don't care about xp. But I always need alot of transmutes because I do vet raiding and play all roles. And Zos keeps changing gear and combat every patch so I need to keep fake tanking random normals. If vets dropped double then I would run them instead.
But that would create another problem, way longer queues for normal because not enough tanks. People who complain about fakes think about that for a moment. Alot of posts here say that 9 out of 10 dungeons they got a fake tank. If most of those "tanks" wouldn't queue anymore then YOU would wait for hours.

Okay maybe I would wait, but I'd really like to know what having a real tank is like. I almost never see it.

Kusto wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

It's all about them transmutes. I'm over 2k cp and don't care about xp. But I always need alot of transmutes because I do vet raiding and play all roles. And Zos keeps changing gear and combat every patch so I need to keep fake tanking random normals. If vets dropped double then I would run them instead.
But that would create another problem, way longer queues for normal because not enough tanks. People who complain about fakes think about that for a moment. Alot of posts here say that 9 out of 10 dungeons they got a fake tank. If most of those "tanks" wouldn't queue anymore then YOU would wait for hours.

Okay maybe I would wait, but I'd really like to know what having a real tank is like. I almost never see it.

Then do vet. I've been playing for years and only seen 2 fake tanks. There's so many fakes in normals because they simply don't need real one.

As someone who tanks the content a good bit, normals are pretty boring. The content doesnt need a real tank and it really about the last place a tank would go if they wanted to be engaged with the content. Exceptions for newer players/tanks of course.

Seriously, try vet.

Rowjoh

endgamesmug wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Depends what server you are on I guess - PC EU and NA are awash with decent guilds !

Certainly hasnt been my experience since coming from xbox but sounds like youve had a better experience in this wash of guilds you describe.

There are plenty of guilds listed in the Guild Finder. Once you are in a guild(s) you can mention in the guild chat what you are looking to do, but be patient - obviously the more guilds you have, the quicker it is likely to be that you will get to do content you want to do.

Also various guild recruiters advertise their guilds several times a day in all the main zones (and most of the smaller ones too) via zone chat so maybe you're missing all those? (check that your chat window isn't disabled, hidden or too small).

And you can always travel to a few areas and post a message in zone chat that you are looking for a guild. (remember to copy and paste your request so you dont have to keep typing it out multiple times). Despite toxicity in certain environments, the ESO PC community in general is very helpful and I'd be surprised if you dont get a few responses and an even invite or two.

Just to re-iterate this is PC EU/NA. I don't know about consoles so maybe someone could comment on ease of guild availability for those.

endgamesmug

Rowjoh wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Depends what server you are on I guess - PC EU and NA are awash with decent guilds !

Certainly hasnt been my experience since coming from xbox but sounds like youve had a better experience in this wash of guilds you describe.

There are plenty of guilds listed in the Guild Finder.

Also guild recruiters advertise their guilds several times a day in all the main zones (and most of the smaller ones too) via zone chat - maybe your chat window is disabled, hidden or too small so you're missing all those?

And you can always travel to a few areas and mention in zone chat that you are looking for a guild. Despite toxicity in certain environments, the ESO community in general is very helpful!

Just to re-iterate this is PC EU/NA. I don't know about consoles so maybe someone could comment on guild availability for those.

Oh yes i notice their ads frequently during the day and choose to ignore the bulk of them they all have the same description and nothing im interested in when i have found the odd guild either through finder or zonechat it turns out to be dead with noone chatting. Thats my pc experience, but on the positive side i have met people through activity finder and various zonechats and we get together now and then for wb's or some other overland issue and the odd dungeon suits me fine. I have my own all craftable tables/transmute/atro practice dummy house so ive just adapted to the solo environment of pc.😀

Rowjoh

[/quote]

Oh yes i notice their ads frequently during the day and choose to ignore the bulk of them they all have the same description and nothing im interested in when i have found the odd guild either through finder or zonechat it turns out to be dead with noone chatting.

Thats my pc experience, but on the positive side i have met people through activity finder and various zonechats and we get together now and then for wb's or some other overland issue and the odd dungeon suits me fine. I have my own all craftable tables/transmute/atro practice dummy house so ive just adapted to the solo environment of pc.😀

[/quote]

Thats a bit defeatist! But maybe you're new to the game or can't play that often?

You have to do some some research and leg work to find the right guild mix.

Ask around as to what the decent guilds are. Reply to the adverts to ask if they do content you are interested in, how often they do it, and and how active they are.

You can leave guilds and join others as often as you like anytime without any penalty until you find the right ones. Most of us have joined/left plenty of guilds until settling on the right ones !

I highly recommend going on the Guild Recruitment section on the ESO website forum - there are plenty of decent guilds listed there too, often with more detailed info. You can also respond and ask to join or post a message to ask your questions. You will get an invite/reply more often than not.

Like I said, PC EU/NA is awash with guilds, but you're on a hiding to nothing if you blindly join without putting in some effort and going through a little trial and error to find what suits you best.

endgamesmug

Rowjoh wrote: »

Oh yes i notice their ads frequently during the day and choose to ignore the bulk of them they all have the same description and nothing im interested in when i have found the odd guild either through finder or zonechat it turns out to be dead with noone chatting.

Thats my pc experience, but on the positive side i have met people through activity finder and various zonechats and we get together now and then for wb's or some other overland issue and the odd dungeon suits me fine. I have my own all craftable tables/transmute/atro practice dummy house so ive just adapted to the solo environment of pc.😀

[/quote]

Thats a bit defeatist! But maybe you're new to the game or can't play that often?

You have to do some some research and leg work to find the right guild mix.

Ask around as to what the decent guilds are. Reply to the adverts to ask if they do content you are interested in, how often they do it, and and how active they are.

You can leave guilds and join others as often as you like anytime without any penalty until you find the right ones. Most of us have joined/left plenty of guilds until settling on the right ones !

I highly recommend going on the Guild Recruitment section on the ESO website forum - there are plenty of decent guilds listed there too, often with more detailed info. You can also respond and ask to join or post a message to ask your questions. You will get an invite/reply more often than not.

Like I said, PC EU/NA is awash with guilds, but you're on a hiding to nothing if you blindly join without putting in some effort and going through a little trial and error to find what suits you best.



[/quote]

I started on xbox in 2015 no im not new to eso, and there was great enthusiastic people and guilds there. Pc is a different environment and i have adapted, i have been on pc for around 2 years or more so have tried plenty of guilds. Dungeons interest me greatly especially vet dlc, there is alot of emphasis on trials on pc this does not interest me. I am not defeated i have adapted and created my own fun thankyou very much, it has reinvigorated my interest in soloing so there is not a downside here, despite the initial disappointment in the nature of guilds on pc.

The_Boggart

As a tank, I have been thrown out, because a group of DP used me to get into a dungeon then evicted me to get another DP mate in

Billium813

How can the game fix the "Fake Role" issue

There really are only two options the game can take: Stick and Carrot. The game can either exert tremendous force with level restrictions or punishments or metric checks (Stick) OR, they can incentivize players do play "correctly" with rewards (Carrot).

Now, both options are valid, for different reasons, but have different outcomes. The Stick offers more control and more guarantees that players will behave how you want, but that Donkey (yep, that's us; the players) will end up hating you in the long run. If you ask the Donkey which option they want, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize we will ask for the Carrot every time. However, there is no guarantees that the Carrot will be enough of an incentive or that players will respond correctly. Both options are important and need to be used in concert.

I think they should alter pledges to incentivize players to run Vet content more. At the moment, high level players are running normal dungeons because there is almost no difference in the reward structure! At the same time, they need to level restrict dungeons so that high level players are forced to play at a level their character reflects.

1. Change the pledge rewards
   • Normal - 1 Keys
   • Vet - 2 Keys
   • Vet HM - 3 Keys
2. Level restrict Dungeons
   • Make Normal dungeons restricted to < CP 300
   • Make Vet dungeons restricted to > CP 300
   • Add Vet HM specific queue
3. Add an incentive for re-doing achievements ("no death" Survivor Challenges, "speed run" Speed Challenges) even if the player already has those unlocked
4. Add role specific rewards (% of damage taken, % of healing provided, % DPS done)
5. For dungeon design
   1. Add more room puzzles that require all 4 players to progress
   2. Add more mechanics specific to Healer and Tank. For instance, Keeper of the Kiln in Unhallowed Grave has to be taunted onto platforms. Or a mechanic where Healing powers a machine.
   3. Add gates/doors to prevent players from being able to sprint to the end. Require players to respawn at the start, or make mob packs contain required mini-bosses to allow progress forward in the dungeon. At the moment, players just die and reset aggro on all mobs, skipping content entirely.

Rowjoh

[/quote]

I started on xbox in 2015 no im not new to eso, and there was great enthusiastic people and guilds there. Pc is a different environment and i have adapted, i have been on pc for around 2 years or more so have tried plenty of guilds. Dungeons interest me greatly especially vet dlc, there is alot of emphasis on trials on pc this does not interest me. I am not defeated i have adapted and created my own fun thankyou very much, it has reinvigorated my interest in soloing so there is not a downside here, despite the initial disappointment in the nature of guilds on pc. [/quote]


You are contradicting yourself.

When I said that PC is awash with guilds you questioned that and replied: 'Certainly hasnt been my experience since coming from xbox but sounds like you've had a better experience in this wash of guilds you describe'.

but now you admit: ' I have been on pc for around 2 years or more so have tried plenty of guilds'.

You also infer that PC is different to xbox in negative way, and say that you have had to adapt and create your own fun, yet PC has always had and continues to have a bigger population with a more mature player demographic than xbox, and also has a very enthusiastic community with brilliant guilds.

You also said '...when i have found the odd guild either through finder or zonechat it turns out to be dead with no one chatting'.

However it's common knowledge that there are plenty of very active easy-to-find, easy-to-join guilds where players run vet and vet dlc dungeons on a regular basis - I've just checked the Guild Recruitment section (both PC servers) and they are awash with active guilds looking for players for every type of content.

It sounds like you have just blindly joined guilds expecting them to cater to what you're interested in doing without checking them out first.

So I repeat, if you do nothing else, look through the Guild Recruitment section of this forum, make a little short-list of which ones sound up your street and check with them that they do what you want to do and ask for an invite if you're happy.

kargen27

Allow players to queue for non traditional groups. That means they could end up with four DPS, two healers and two tanks or any other combo. Traditional groups would get priority in being filled. So if players trying to form a traditional group were waiting on a tank and a tank showed in the queue they would get the tank.
After the game checks a fills traditional groups then players that queue for non traditional would be grouped together first come first serve with no consideration of roles. Being able to do this players wouldn't need to fake a role to get to the front of the line.

Hapexamendios

Billium813 wrote: »

1. Change the pledge rewards
   • Normal - 1 Keys
   • Vet - 2 Keys
   • Vet HM - 3 Keys
     
     Fine with this
     
2. Level restrict Dungeons
   • Make Normal dungeons restricted to < CP 300
   • Make Vet dungeons restricted to > CP 300
   • Add Vet HM specific queue
     
     No way. I should not be restricted from normal dungeons because of my level.
     
3. Add an incentive for re-doing achievements ("no death" Survivor Challenges, "speed run" Speed Challenges) even if the player already has those unlocked
4. Add role specific rewards (% of damage taken, % of healing provided, % DPS done)
5. For dungeon design
   2. Add more room puzzles that require all 4 players to progress
      
      No, I like to solo dungeons. This should reflect the number of players in the party, not just restricted to 4.
      
   3. Add more mechanics specific to Healer and Tank. For instance, Keeper of the Kiln in Unhallowed Grave has to be taunted onto platforms. Or a mechanic where Healing powers a machine.
   4. Add gates/doors to prevent players from being able to sprint to the end. Require players to respawn at the start, or make mob packs contain required mini-bosses to allow progress forward in the dungeon. At the moment, players just die and reset aggro on all mobs, skipping content entirely.
      
      Again no. I prefer to skip adds when possible soloing or with friends
      

endgamesmug

Rowjoh wrote: »

I started on xbox in 2015 no im not new to eso, and there was great enthusiastic people and guilds there. Pc is a different environment and i have adapted, i have been on pc for around 2 years or more so have tried plenty of guilds. Dungeons interest me greatly especially vet dlc, there is alot of emphasis on trials on pc this does not interest me. I am not defeated i have adapted and created my own fun thankyou very much, it has reinvigorated my interest in soloing so there is not a downside here, despite the initial disappointment in the nature of guilds on pc. [/quote]


You are contradicting yourself.

When I said that PC is awash with guilds you questioned that and replied: 'Certainly hasnt been my experience since coming from xbox but sounds like you've had a better experience in this wash of guilds you describe'.

but now you admit: ' I have been on pc for around 2 years or more so have tried plenty of guilds'.

You also infer that PC is different to xbox in negative way, and say that you have had to adapt and create your own fun, yet PC has always had and continues to have a bigger population with a more mature player demographic than xbox, and also has a very enthusiastic community with brilliant guilds.

You also said '...when i have found the odd guild either through finder or zonechat it turns out to be dead with no one chatting'.

However it's common knowledge that there are plenty of very active easy-to-find, easy-to-join guilds where players run vet and vet dlc dungeons on a regular basis - I've just checked the Guild Recruitment section (both PC servers) and they are awash with active guilds looking for players for every type of content.

It sounds like you have just blindly joined guilds expecting them to cater to what you're interested in doing without checking them out first.

So I repeat, if you do nothing else, look through the Guild Recruitment section of this forum, make a little short-list of which ones sound up your street and check with them that they do what you want to do and ask for an invite if you're happy.

[/quote]

[snip]
[edited for flaming]

Amerises

My answer to the question from OP:
[snip]

Honestly, vet dungeons usually go faster if you’re doing your role correctly.

[edited for baiting]

fizzylu

This has never really been an issue I've experienced. I actually have even found that some vet dungeons are easier to do without a pure healer or pure tank as long as everyone present knows the mechanics.... and usually for normals a pure healer/tank are not necessary either.... so I don't know haha

kargen27 wrote: »

Allow players to queue for non traditional groups.

Something like this idea seems reasonable.... but I kind of just feel like the content being played more is the most obvious solution haha at this point, I personally do not do dungeons unless I'm trying to go after an achievement or someone asks me to help them. A lot of other MMOs I play even give healers and tanks some extra bonuses since they are the less played role.... but considering ESO does not have a proper class system with roles that might just make things worse as well. Implementing a system that requires a character to have a tanking/healing weapon or abilities equipped to even select the role could be a thing (Albion Online has something like this).... but I don't know if Zenimax could handle making something like that.

Rowjoh

Not sure that would work.