What is YOUR fix for the fake tank/fake healer issue?

the1andonlyskwex

kurbbie_s wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

SalamanNZ wrote: »

Scalebreaker peak is a great example of exposing fake tanks. Unless you have really good dps you won't get up to and past the first boss. Obviously I'm talking about vet mode. But if you make the lead up and first boss really hard eg they hit hard so you need 40k hp and taunts are needed

Theres fake tanks on vet?

I can't speak for all servers, but there certainly are a lot on PS4-NA. Probably close to half of my random vet runs (as healer) include a "tank" with less than 30k health who either doesn't taunt or kites bosses out of GBAoE.

if youre completing the dungeon, whats the problem?

It would go a lot faster and more smoothly with a real tank. DDs getting one shotted, DDs having to kite bosses, and fake tanks kiting bosses out of GBAoE all reduce overall group DPS a lot. In most cases, the effect is so huge it more than counters any increase in DPS that would otherwise be realized by having a 3rd DD, so almost every run with a fake tank is a long, slow, stressful slog compared to a run with a real tank.

The impact of a fake tank is much less pronounced in random normals, where one really good DD can steamroll a dungeon solo, but even then that person is basically ruining the dungeon for everyone else by trivializing the content (i.e. it isn't much fun to just run behind someone looting the corpses they leave in their wake).

Zodiarkslayer

Only thing that'll work, is locking out the option to switch roles, unless certain requirements are fullfilled.
You know, equipped Resto Staff, pop, you can select the Healer role. 1h+s + 2pieces heavy armor+ 30k health, boom, tank button pops up.

Obviously the group finder had to be adjusted to auto kick when a tank unequips the shield or heavy armor or the healer the Resto Staff.

As long as there are no consequences there will be fake roles.

Incentivising that with unique buffs is a great idea!

Ishtarknows

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Only thing that'll work, is locking out the option to switch roles, unless certain requirements are fullfilled.
You know, equipped Resto Staff, pop, you can select the Healer role. 1h+s + 2pieces heavy armor+ 30k health, boom, tank button pops up.

Obviously the group finder had to be adjusted to auto kick when a tank unequips the shield or heavy armor or the healer the Resto Staff.

As long as there are no consequences there will be fake roles.

Incentivising that with unique buffs is a great idea!

I notice you've not put any prerequisites for the Damage Dealer role. Arguably it's at least as important as a tank or healer since they're the ones that, y'know kill stuff with their Damage skills.

If a healer requires a resto staff (they don't) then a DD must not carry one. The same goes for Sword and Shield. We need to lock out DDs who turn up unprepared for their role just the same.

AlterBlika

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

It would go a lot faster and more smoothly with a real tank. DDs getting one shotted, DDs having to kite bosses

Why would you kite bosses in normal pugs or vet vanilla pugs? Bosses do no damage - just slot some hot if you need it. One-shot attacks should be dodged, or dds nowadays don't even know how to do that?
There are only 2 bosses which should be kited, if you aren't built to fight them, they are vSpindleclutch1 and vWayrest Sewers1, because they hit quite hard for squishy dds. But that's it.

Ittrix

Remove daily transmute rewards from daily dungeons. Veteran too if need be.

You want players with thousands of hours to not treat dungeons as a daily grind they want to get over with asap? Don't make daily dungeons a grind to get over with asap.

You want to know why people who hate PvP and just want to get it over with fake it and just go around fixing walls? Transmutes and alliance skill points.
If there were rewards for decorating your house, there'd be lots of 'fake housers' who put in the ugliest bare minimum effort to get their reward. You see it in no man's sky all the time because there *are* rewards for making houses sometimes.
The solution is painfully obvious in my eyes. Take away the reward. Make it a game mode that people who do it only do it because they want to. Same as questing/overland, trading, housing, PvP (mostly), and endgame trials.

What do we do about transmute stones? I dunno. Give out ten a day for free. Fork, remove them and let all gear modification be done for free.

Ittrix

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Only thing that'll work, is locking out the option to switch roles, unless certain requirements are fullfilled.
You know, equipped Resto Staff, pop, you can select the Healer role. 1h+s + 2pieces heavy armor+ 30k health, boom, tank button pops up.

Obviously the group finder had to be adjusted to auto kick when a tank unequips the shield or heavy armor or the healer the Resto Staff.

As long as there are no consequences there will be fake roles.

Incentivising that with unique buffs is a great idea!

ZoS does not want to do this. It limits roles, rather pointlessly. Players who want to work outside the bounds of the system ("Hey 3 other guys, let's do an all DPS run!" sort of thing) will be limited. Players who take 'play your own way' strongly will also be limited.
I have a vampire sap tank who starts at 30k HP and steadily drops as I keep going thanks to thrassian. I run vampire's fury constantly and drown myself in heals. Roll dodging is how I avoid big nasty hits (Through the enemy to keep them still of course), and for the majority of dungeons that will work. I get to do some decent damage and I'm still doing the basic job of a tank.
So what about me? Do I get kicked? Do I get to stay? How do we modify the system to include me but not other players? Where does the line get drawn on when you aren't actually tanking any more?

They won't do it. It's too complex and there's a risk to hurt too many players.

gddanielb16_ESO

'm a regular player; 2700'ish CP; played since beta.

[snip] Having been sticker book hunting for the past month (and left with DLC's only), I'm seeing about half coming in as fake tanks. Ask nicely for a taunt and you'll more often than not get told off (and pretty much never get compliance). Typically you'll get a "get good" or this is "trivially easy, why are you complaining?". They do NOT represent the ESO community, by and large. Although there's the occasional CP100, most are high levels with high DPS skills. They do not appreciate that aggro for casters, like healers, is fine for a short while, but they can't sustain blocking or block-casting for long. The healer then can't keep newer players alive effectively. Of course there's no boss control, so the fight moves constantly. It can get miserable for the non-fake-tank players quite often.

For those experienced ESO players: imagine this is your "new player" introduction to groups. I can't emphasize this enough. Absurd drama & chaos, and clearly caused by folks more concerned about themselves and their own goals than other players. I'd be shocked if new players find any of this "fun".

A simple solution? @name reporting. 10 of those for different days; different players and/or dungeons = a month suspension ... or "two months no dungeons". There are indeed better recommendations I've read on how to manage this, but this is simple. Different days means no ganging up. This is the "this is how angry I am" solution.

I also firmly believe much could be done to help tanking in ESO.

I also think another simple (partial) solution is to prohibit anyone not using a shield in one slot AND a taunt from queueing as tank --- and staying that way to the end of the dungeon.

Something must be done for newer players to prevent them from suffering this situation. Please. For the good of the game.

[Edited for Baiting]

VaranisArano

My personal solution: Play my tank. Because when I play my healers or DD in Normal Dungeons, I inevitably end up face tanking the boss because of a fake tank, so I might as well do it properly.


That's not a systemic solution, and there isn't one.

ZOS isn't going to split the queues because the RND exists primarily to backfill groups for pledges and specific dungeon runs.

Players who don't want to tank or heal aren't going to, and there's no systemic way to force them to.

The only aspect that ZOS could address would be to make a tutorial for Damage Dealers, rather than expecting that inexperienced players will go look at outside resources. But that would require ZOS to quit playing around with how DPS works in this game, and that's never gonna happen.

MidniteOwl1913

gddanielb16_ESO wrote: »

'm a regular player; 2700'ish CP; played since beta.

[snip] Having been sticker book hunting for the past month (and left with DLC's only), I'm seeing about half coming in as fake tanks. Ask nicely for a taunt and you'll more often than not get told off (and pretty much never get compliance). Typically you'll get a "get good" or this is "trivially easy, why are you complaining?". They do NOT represent the ESO community, by and large. Although there's the occasional CP100, most are high levels with high DPS skills. They do not appreciate that aggro for casters, like healers, is fine for a short while, but they can't sustain blocking or block-casting for long. The healer then can't keep newer players alive effectively. Of course there's no boss control, so the fight moves constantly. It can get miserable for the non-fake-tank players quite often.

For those experienced ESO players: imagine this is your "new player" introduction to groups. I can't emphasize this enough. Absurd drama & chaos, and clearly caused by folks more concerned about themselves and their own goals than other players. I'd be shocked if new players find any of this "fun".

A simple solution? @name reporting. 10 of those for different days; different players and/or dungeons = a month suspension ... or "two months no dungeons". There are indeed better recommendations I've read on how to manage this, but this is simple. Different days means no ganging up. This is the "this is how angry I am" solution.

I also firmly believe much could be done to help tanking in ESO.

I also think another simple (partial) solution is to prohibit anyone not using a shield in one slot AND a taunt from queueing as tank --- and staying that way to the end of the dungeon.

Something must be done for newer players to prevent them from suffering this situation. Please. For the good of the game.

[Edited for Baiting]

I'm that healer being chased around by trash, or in a boss fight running all over trying to heal. I pug normals and frankly about 90% of the "tanks" are fake. I'm lucky if they aren't one of those belligerent speed runners who drag a trash mod along behind and then just "joining encounter" the rest of us. It's not fun and I and the other two party members are just tools for the speeder on the way to whatever reward they are after.

FeedbackOnly

Make a six man dungeon

4 DPS

1 tank
1 healer

Poof less DPS complaining they can't get in

Dojohoda

I don't have any good ideas for this problem.

Maybe the system checking for at least one appropriate skill for the selected role would be adequate.
Tank- taunt skill
Healer- heal skill
damage dealer- no taunt slotted

ssewallb14_ESO

A list based group finder in addition to the queue would help with this issue, as well as allow for a realistic trials group finder.

eg.

Activity: <random normal dungeon>
Rolls needed: DPS (1/4)
Min Level: CP 160
Description: LF DPS for fast random normal

Would appear in a concise list that would refresh periodically, similar to oldschool battle.net

rpa

My solution is to walk in solo or queue with a group.

Sarannah

Another solution would be to remove transmutes from normal dungeons completely, and add transmutes/undaunted keys to all the zone's non-crafting daily quests. Which could randomly give either two transmutes or one undaunted key as rewards. This would make sure veteran players would flow to veteran content for the transmutes, monster masks, and double keys(would still rarely do normals for exp). This would also allow (new)players to gather transmutes and undaunted keys in an accessible way, and would leave normal dungeons mostly for learning roles/dungeons/grouping.

Another advantage of this is, players could do as many daily quests as they would need transmutes/undaunted keys. Only limited by the amount of daily quests one can do each day.
Another good thing about this idea is, it would not limit or change anything about roles, dungeons, and buildrequirements.

Ishtarknows

My solution is to have a proper group content tutorial with goals to pass for each role and if you don't pass you can't access more difficult/ vet dungeons through group finder*.

If I could guarantee I'd get 2 DDs who could pull their weight in every dungeon queue I'd be much more likely to bring in my "proper" support character. Until then I'll heal with my DDs (yes I provide heals) or tank with a hybrid.

* You could still access all dungeons in a premade group.

Ishtarknows

Dojohoda wrote: »

I don't have any good ideas for this problem.

Maybe the system checking for at least one appropriate skill for the selected role would be adequate.
Tank- taunt skill
Healer- heal skill
damage dealer- no taunt slotted

You have good points, and I get your troll emoji at the end, but this list is a prime example of the problem - how the three roles are perceived:

Tank - must taunt
Healer- must heal
DD - turn up and don't impede the tank

Really?
Is there any surprise "proper" supports don't want to join the dungeon queue when their role is held to account much more than the stars of the show, the Damage Dealers? Don't forget everyone is there to Kill the Bad Guys. You can't heal them to death.

Uvi_AUT

1.) Fix the DPS-Gap. The diference between a terrible player and a Topplayer should never be more than 100% (provided the same Gearlevel). If its more, then the dungeon-design has to be off too. No Designteam can work with a Gap like that. You can feel the impact in every VET-DLCdungeon. They range from easy to ridiculous.

2.) Make it impossible to to Dungeons without a real Tank or Healer. If there is no way it will work, then there is no point in Fake-Queuing.

finehair

My main is a real tank but even on my DPS chars I roll as tank in random normals with undaunted taunt slotted. Because why would I wait for 2 hours to get a dungeon as a DD? On my DD I can tank %80 of the normal dungeons with the DD build, and if I get one of those dlc dungeons I can switch few gears and still survive as a tank.
The point is, sure tanks need to buff group instead of damaging during fights. But for example in dungeons similar to fungal grotto, is it worth to buff group at all? Or have a guy that takes the taunt AND deals damage as a normal DD?
In my other DD I roll as healer because it is magcro and instead of taunting I can heal the first heal skill of necro class and keep the whole team alive in normal dungeons

MidniteOwl1913

So the reason that people queue as fakes is because they don't want to wait in the DPS queue. They queue in normal because running the dungeon takes less time. Basicly they want to be able to get whatever reward they want fast.

Removing the transmute crystals from random normal dungeons would do that. But a lot of people need those crystals for builds and PVP isn't for everyone and even so 50 crystals isn't that much. Maybe reduce the number of crystals for normal from 10 to 5 maybe. Leave vet at 10. That would encourage players that can run vet to run vet. Won't do anything for the people doing undaunted pledges in normal, maybe offer 2 keys for undaunted vet?

I think that modifying the rewards is the way to go. Remove the motivation and it's easier to fix the problem.

The other thing would be to encourage more people to become healers and tanks so that the wait times for the queues are more even?

Sockermannen

i made a suggestion a while back when it came to dealing with fake tanks.

astronomically boost the damage of boss mobs in dungeons, buff it to the point where it should not be possible to block more than 1-2 hits before going down on a standard DD/healer build. Along with this make taunt act like a damage reduction against boss mobs, a tauned mob would deal today’s damage against the player who taunted it.

This will not necessarely solve the issue with fake healers, but it will become much more important for fake tanks to at the very least slot a taunt. Should they not do this then they will activelly harm the progression of the group by having the boss run around untaunted with increased damage which would hopefully lead to more fake tank kicks.

Basically make it harder for fake tanks to roll without a taunt without making it harder for people who run actual fake rank builds and contribute to progression. Atleast then i won’t have to deal with the boss head on because someone else decided to be lazy.

also make the leaver penalty of 15 min before requeue apply if you get kicked early into the dungeon.

MaraxusTheOrc

I blame WoW and the mythic plus mentality of going fast fast fast through dungeons instead of treating them like meaningful content and a social experience. It’s a player behavior. Want to fix it? Make it so dungeons can’t be run with fake roles. Period. Have tank one shot mechanics. Have heavy boss dots that require dedicated healing. Smoke out the fake ones from queue finder through harder mechanics.

notyuu

my fix would be simple
role effects, for example, while you are in a dungeon, being in a role would give you

Tank role: +resist +sustain -damage done -healing done
Heal role: +Healing +cost discount -damage done
Damage role: +Damage +Crit -Resist -healing done

sure the exsact effects would need to be tweaked/changed and amounts they do balanced for optimal effect

is it a perfect solution? no, but it's the best we could muster for an imperfect system

zaria

Sockermannen wrote: »

i made a suggestion a while back when it came to dealing with fake tanks.

astronomically boost the damage of boss mobs in dungeons, buff it to the point where it should not be possible to block more than 1-2 hits before going down on a standard DD/healer build. Along with this make taunt act like a damage reduction against boss mobs, a tauned mob would deal today’s damage against the player who taunted it.

This will not necessarely solve the issue with fake healers, but it will become much more important for fake tanks to at the very least slot a taunt. Should they not do this then they will activelly harm the progression of the group by having the boss run around untaunted with increased damage which would hopefully lead to more fake tank kicks.

Basically make it harder for fake tanks to roll without a taunt without making it harder for people who run actual fake rank builds and contribute to progression. Atleast then i won’t have to deal with the boss head on because someone else decided to be lazy.

also make the leaver penalty of 15 min before requeue apply if you get kicked early into the dungeon.

Now that makes some sense, the downside is that ESO dungeons goes from normal FG1 to HM dlc ones.
But having taunting giving an damage reduction for the one taunting is an good idea.
As for tanking I say the base game dungeons are boring even in HM while many vet dlc has so much one shots you have to dodge its hard to get into even in an guild run if none other in group has tanked it, not an good tank

As for the penalty, the finder has so many issues its an problem. You also has troll kicking.

Deter1UK

Sarannah wrote: »

Another solution would be to remove transmutes from normal dungeons completely, and add transmutes/undaunted keys to all the zone's non-crafting daily quests. Which could randomly give either two transmutes or one undaunted key as rewards. This would make sure veteran players would flow to veteran content for the transmutes, monster masks, and double keys(would still rarely do normals for exp). This would also allow (new)players to gather transmutes and undaunted keys in an accessible way, and would leave normal dungeons mostly for learning roles/dungeons/grouping.

Another advantage of this is, players could do as many daily quests as they would need transmutes/undaunted keys. Only limited by the amount of daily quests one can do each day.
Another good thing about this idea is, it would not limit or change anything about roles, dungeons, and buildrequirements.

And add Transmute Sttones as a random drop to Excavations, given the trash that turnes up in the bottom of those pits the occasional transmute stone would be a welcome addition and makes more sense, I mean they have to come from somewhere...

blktauna

If the reward is not worth their time, the annoying speedrunners and selfish jerks won't go in. Change how the transmutes are achieved and the problem resolves itself.

rpa

Make running random dungeons not worth the time to remove the motivation to queue. Brilliant! That should solve the problem.

Tannus15

As a person who enjoys dungeons, random normals are not fun.

I don't know why they have the largest transmute reward for PvE. it's double that of the weekly coffers, it's more than HM pledges, it's more than vet solo arenas.

It literally makes to sense to me why it's the most rewarding activity.

it's been made abundantly clear to ZoS that their reward structures in this game are rubbish and this is just another example of one.

Likewise the skill gap is so important and huge in this game that putting vet PVE in the same pool as new PVE is just as bad as putting vet PVP in with new PVP. You have one group of people who have done the content 100's of times, are capable of solo'ing it and just want to get it done with other people who want to experience the content and it's still a challenge.

Cazador

I'd say reduce (or even remove) transmutes for normal dungeons and increase the amount for vet/ hardmode. That way people who want to maximize their earnings have to actually choose an appropriate role to themselves.

Tannus15

The more I think about it the more dungeon finder match making would fix the issue. The problem is less about "fake roles" but more about the skill, knowledge and experience gap.

Base the score on achievements, current gear score and CP.

weight the possible dungeons for a random normal as well, so a group of people who haven't cleared many dungeons on normal, let alone vet, are more likely to get base game dungeons.

PvE vets will more than likely get grouped together and have all the possible dungeons available. I literally don't care if you're fake tanking or healing a random normal. worse case i slot a self heal and inner beast, maybe change to tri stat food for extra health. I can adapt if the "fake tank" is a useless poser.

Kusto

It's all about them transmutes. I'm over 2k cp and don't care about xp. But I always need alot of transmutes because I do vet raiding and play all roles. And Zos keeps changing gear and combat every patch so I need to keep fake tanking random normals. If vets dropped double then I would run them instead.
But that would create another problem, way longer queues for normal because not enough tanks. People who complain about fakes think about that for a moment. Alot of posts here say that 9 out of 10 dungeons they got a fake tank. If most of those "tanks" wouldn't queue anymore then YOU would wait for hours.