Boss Health Changes Comms

Elsonso

karekiz wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

Soooooooo

Can The Devs name them?

If they were simply listed <Boss X reduced by Y> in comparison Boss A reduced by B would basically have solved this issue, but no info is given. So it shows some error in patch or the devs miss-communicated something, or they don't know what was actually posted.

All we have right now is a reply to a Tweet with not much more information...

https://twitter.com/thefinninator/status/1556729817625657344

Hopefully more information is forthcoming.

It sounds like they may make additional changes, just not before Update 35 goes live.

https://twitter.com/thefinninator/status/1556759012393291777

AlterBlika

Well, solo arenas are already a joke rather than a challenging content. But I'm worried about the leaderbords - nothing was done to arenas' mobs hp so it means it's going to take us a bit more time to complete them, meaning we're going to get less score. So basically, after-update scores will be inferior to current ones and that's kind of sad if you're into it. Best complete it now as fast as you can before the update comes out.

FantasticFreddie

I can't believe they didn't give us an actual list. Someone made the changes. Presumably, they kept track of them. How difficult would it have been to just INCLUDE THEM IN THE PATCH NOTES?

[snip] they can note they removed a single point of stamina regain from the heavy attacks of two different weapons, (not to mention wasting everyone's time with it in the first place) but can't tell us the details of the bosses getting nerfed?
And for heaven's sake, why were arenas left out??

[edited for profanity bypass]

vivisectvib16_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

Echoing that it's ridiculous to not adjust arena bosses as well. Completely absurd.

peacenote

I don't understand how a health reduction across the board fixes much. I thought the issue was the damage put out by NPCs and our inability to keep up the heals. Because our heals were nerfed but incoming damage was not?

Additionally base game dungeons don't need any reductions... even with a HUGE DPS nerf to all. FG I, EH I... these dungeon bosses do not need health reductions.

Rush job on top of a rush job. They needed more time for major changes like this

veznan5

AlterBlika wrote: »

Well, solo arenas are already a joke rather than a challenging content.

Vet vateshran is a struggle for a lot of people I know, mainly in dealing with the dps check while being hit by adds and aoes.
Since nothing in them got adjusted I'd say it'll become out of reach for most semi-casual players

Rkindaleft

If you were changing some of the content in regards to power creep, but not all of the content, I have 2 questions for you, ZOS.

Why are you bothering to make these changes in the first place? Are there any, even just a small group of players who are actually benefiting from these changes?

Incidentally, I would have much appreciated a basic list of what was actually adjusted and what was not.

Did you nerf Nahviintaas HM by 10% and not the Servant? Many prog teams already aren't able to clear that mini consistently, and we just got a DPS nerf of at least 15-20%, if not more. Cloudrest crystals, Kyne's boat minis, hemoglobin/ichor on Falgravn, sea adder and gryphon? Xalvakka shade/shields? This is a very big amount of testing for something that was left to the final PTS notes before the patch, not to mention that some of the content is very difficult so it's hard to obtain this data consistently.

Did you not consider arenas in need of re-balancing? Why didn't you nerf those accordingly? Again we are receiving a sizable nerf, but those weren't touched. That's the complete opposite of making that content accessible, which I thought was one of the main objectives of this entire PTS cycle. This is probably more relevant to vVH and vBRP. My partner IRL is mostly a casual player but generally understands the concept of weaving and how sets match up and at least the basic fundamentals of a rotation, he got to around 29-30k DPS on a self buffed 3m dummy before he stopped practicing. Not huge DPS, but enough to do vet DLC dungeons, including some of the more forgiving hard modes without too much of a struggle (with him and I as DPS we have done stuff like vDChm, vUGhm, vMHKhm, etc.) This makes things like vVH much more difficult for him and straight up pushes everyone else out of reach who were barely scraping past that content in the first place. So, where is the content being made more accessible?

Gendizer

If I understand correctly, the changes in patch 35 are aimed at simplifying the game for beginners, at simplifying the rotation. But in fact, because of the broken timings, the rotation has become even more difficult. I've been playing a heavy attack build on my warden for years now. It has become much harder to weave a rotation due to changes in deep fissure. This skill was the calling card of the warden, and now it has become incomprehensible.

As for the latest changes - what's the point of lowering the DPS along with lowering the HP of the bosses? Basically, nothing will change from this, but beginners will damage even weaker, which will complicate their passage of regular content.

Stardustrevolution

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

hello, i have been trying to reach out to you for 1 year, i tried every thing i could, please give me the opportunity to send you a private message, i have something very important that you need to know

Enundr

marius_buys wrote: »

This makes absolutely no sense
In a dungeon or trial 4 or 12 players can rely on cross healing and buffing from group members but in a solo arena ZOS have now made it just so much more difficult for the entry level player which is basically the majority of the playerbase. Why?

this is starting to feel like wildstar all over again when you say it like that......for those who dont know , ill translate.....R.I.P. ESO.
Basically wildstar kinda favored the hardcore crowd and relatively ignored the casuals , ended up shutting down in the end. was a shame it was a fun mmo in its own rights as well , not a mmo killer (wow or any other) , just something different.

Enundr

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What a mess. Nerf everyone because the top 1% of organized end game raids can output obscene dps and sustain, while gutting solo and small group scenario's where the majority of the new players you're trying to help are struggling..

How does that make any sense? What is this patch?

to summarize it shortly? very likely what kills ESO down to a handful of players.

kindnuguz

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I can somewhat understand vDSA and vMA. They are very old and predate One Tamriel and have likely become easier than originally intended..

Although in the past (pre Update 28) I have been able to pass vMA , I tried it the other day and no matter what I tried, the ICE sheets level , aka DPS check. I couldn't pass it and gave up. vDSA I only was able to 1 time with 3 DPS's and 1Tank and this was pre update 28.

I have better sets than I use to but DPS is so low along with things like vMA are old and people don't care about it so how low DPS has tanked for solo players is pretty much un-noticed or no one cares.

This or the arthritis in my hands has got worse to the point of not allowing me to keyboard acrobat enough to get past it lol

Enundr

Didgerion wrote: »

@ZOS it is a bad DLC!

Every time you rollback a change it feels good!

In this specific patch rolling back Vigor feels good!

Rolling back AOE hots and dots felt good!

Rolling back the ligh and heavy attack scaling felt good!

Just few more thing left to rollback. Looks like all you need is just to extend the PTS cycles by 3 weeks.

would probably be more optimal to just NOT IMPLEMENT THE COMBAT CHANGES XD there is so much negativity for this patch already starting to flood beyond the forums , even if they try to delete posts / comments , its kinda too late , they literally would have to announce that the combat changes got cancelled and only the dlc content is getting released. would mitigate pr nightmare dmg. as it stands.......dont see it happening and see the game dieing off since its already gone from dedicated sub to F2P , losing a spike in players again will be the final nail in the coffin and i dont think there would be any good pr to save it if the changes just launch in its current state.

francesinhalover

So they kill endless hail for me, and now i gotta do vet dragonstar arena with higher diff because the boss health wasn't nerfed for the master bow.

noice...

Rimskjegg

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

Could you please also confirm or deny whether or not HP on portal DPS races like the Eternal Servant in vSS or the crystals in vCR have also been reduced in HP? It's a little hard to judge if a crystal is counts as a "bannerman" or "champion" or not.

If they have, then good!

I mean you promised to keep the same difficulty as on live... I wish I could just take your word for that, but at this point... I'm sorry but that's really hard right now.

colossalvoids

Rimskjegg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

Could you please also confirm or deny whether or not HP on portal DPS races like the Eternal Servant in vSS or the crystals in vCR have also been reduced in HP? It's a little hard to judge if a crystal is counts as a "bannerman" or "champion" or not.

If they have, then good!

I mean you promised to keep the same difficulty as on live... I wish I could just take your word for that, but at this point... I'm sorry but that's really hard right now.

This whole thing is troubling me the most with their approach, if they're even aware those are the problem for a lot of progs.

Cyber10

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

This entire update is an absolute mess Gina! Rich arrogantly dismissed the valid concerns of the community on Twitter, The mountains of data and pleas of the community are still ignored and now you guys are to conceited to admit that this was a train-wreck and apologize. Lowering boss health shows that the DPS loss and changes are impacting the game in a negative way and that the activities are now harder with the combat/dps changes. If the update was balanced properly then the current health of bosses would not be an issue.

I think it is time for some changes at ZOS..

Ramber

Lowering health on bosses does exactly zero to help lower end players. IDK what these guys are thinking but how does that help low dps players do anything. If you want to help lower end player just buff lower CP players while leaving higher CPs along. its that easy.

AlterBlika

veznan5 wrote: »

Since nothing in them got adjusted I'd say it'll become out of reach for most semi-casual players

It's kind of funny to see how they want to lower the ceiling but end up doing the opposite.

Although I don't think that there's going to be a problem for such players to complete the vet arena. I mean, they're already fairly easy once you learn the mechanics and adjust your build. Surely, they'll need to work a bit harder for this, but hey, it's a vet content after all so you'd better work for it.

Billium813

So, they nerf everyones DPS and lower boss health to compensate? Why are we doing all this again?

There are sooo many wide sweeping changes here, something is bound to break! For instance, have they checked EVERY SINGLE boss with this change? Most bosses have mechanics that kick in percentages. What kind of new bugs occur when those phases are skipped quicker? Just cause they are nerfing DPS for the majority of players doesn't mean there wont be new builds that have the same old high DPS.

I know personally that Lord Warden Dusk in Imperial City Prison dungeon glitches if you burn him too fast. He skips phases and nukes multiple times with no animation. That's just one tho... There are literally dozens of bugs if you burn bosses too fast. They are making so many wide sweeping changes, I think they have lost the original point of this all. This is soo heavy handed.

casparian

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

I'm sure it's a lot to look up and type but isn't communicating info your job?

Billium813

Cyber10 wrote: »

I think it is time for some changes at ZOS..

Vote with your wallet and cancel your subscription. They'll take notice.

At this point, ZOS can save face by just saying

With the large amount of PTS changes we are proposing, we think it would be best to delay making these changes on live until more testing can be done. We still believe the changes are necessary, but we acknowledge that there are many unforeseen ramifications introduced with these changes and the current 5 week development cycle may not be sufficient to test all of these changes. The last thing we want is to ship incomplete changes to live servers. We will keep the changes on PTS for now and welcome the continued feedback as we work to iron out all the wrinkles.

BahometZ

If ZOS are disheartened by the constant negative reactions and outrage at this current pts, they have only themselves to blame. Comments from the devs have bred distrust in their vision and philosophy, so that any further changes are interpreted within what is seen to be a broken system. If this comment is just dismissed as baseless negativity, look around you at the outpouring of this same sentiment. We love the game, and are concerned for its future.

Elsonso

Ramber wrote: »

Lowering health on bosses does exactly zero to help lower end players. IDK what these guys are thinking but how does that help low dps players do anything. If you want to help lower end player just buff lower CP players while leaving higher CPs along. its that easy.

It isn't to help lower end players. The bosses are tuned for a certain amount of player-generated damage and the veteran bosses are probably at the upper end of that scale. Now that the combat team has finished, the specs have changed and the dungeon team is responding accordingly. All they are doing is bringing the top bosses back in line with player-generated damage specs for the content.

VaranisArano

Back in March 2019, ZOS adjusted the difficulty of Veteran DLC dungeons to account for some specific pain points where random groups were struggling.

Here's the patch notes if you want to see the rest. I think the difference between then and now is instructive: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461982/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-6

Velidreth:

• Velidreth's Gout of Bile and Expose Morsel abilities are now only cast in Hard Mode.
• Shadow Weavers, Shadow Warriors and Marrow Fiends now only appear in Hard Mode.
• Decreased Velidreth's overall damage in Veteran mode.
• Decreased the effectiveness of all negative effects related to the Diseased Spores
• Decreased the damage done by Shadow Spine in Normal and Veteran modes.
• Velidreth's Shadow Spine no longer applies the Impaled debuff in Veteran mode.
• Decreased the damage done by Deadly Spikes in the catacombs.
• Deadly Spikes no longer applies Enfeebling Poison or drains Stamina resources in Veteran mode.
• Velidreth now displays the correct animations when casting Shadow Sense.

We are NOT seeing that level of detail or care applied to vet dungeons and trials now. This 10% health nerf without even clarifying exactly what's been impacted is NOT the careful, targeted means that ZOS has used to make Vet content more accessible in the past.

This IS an untargeted attempt to balance a wide swath of content in less than three weeks, in the hopes that players won't quit and will hang around for the months it takes ZOS to roll out more targeted changes.

We've already seen what rebalancing endgame content for accessibility looks like when its done properly, and it doesn't look like this PTS.

I have no expectation that Update 35's combat changes will be put on hold. But if the combat and content team actually want to do it right, then they must hold back the changes until they can properly balance their Vet content for accessibility without expecting Live players to be their guinea pigs for the months it takes them to make targeted changes.

Simply put, their own past work towards accessibility shows how slapdash this attempt is.

Look at that list of how they altered Velidreth in 2019, and then consider that now they can't even be bothered to confirm that it was a roughly 10% HP nerf and to which enemies.

VaranisArano

Not to belabor the point, but in Update 25, ZOS rebalanced the Halls of Fabrication trial for Accessibility. As in, they explicitly called out making it more accessible as the reason for changes in the Patch Notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461982/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-6

Let's compare and contrast, shall we?



Not only is this Update 35 change a far cry from what it looks like when ZOS actually rebalances content for accessibility, but the communication with PTS testers on Update 35 changes is clearly lacking even in regards to the changes they did make.

Ragnarok0130

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The health changes vary slightly for each boss so it’s not simply a flat numerical or percentage change. We can at least confirm the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

Why not you nerfed our healing and damage by flat amounts so logic would dictate that ALL content would have to be adjusted by the same method; not making every boss a “one off” adjustment. This entire patch gets worse with every new piece of information released or confirmed by ZoS employees.

FluffyReachWitch

VaranisArano wrote: »

Back in March 2019, ZOS adjusted the difficulty of Veteran DLC dungeons to account for some specific pain points where random groups were struggling.

Here's the patch notes if you want to see the rest. I think the difference between then and now is instructive: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461982/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-6

I remember this patch fondly. Not only did it improve Normal mode DLC content, but the Planar Inhibitor was so much easier to deal with from that day forward. Previously it had felt like the true boss of White Gold Tower.

This is the kind of work that would make content more accessible, especially with the mechanics changing as they are. For example, I do not relish the idea of dealing with High Kinlord Rilis and his army of infinite, nigh-indestructible puppies daedroth after Patch 35 unless the encounter gets some mechanics adjustments later on.

Varana

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

... the changes only affect Dungeon and Trial bosses, not Arenas.

So the Dungeon team was not allowed to mess with Rich Lambert's favourite plaything (vMA), and so didn't bother with Arenas in general.

Jazraena

I find it absolutely hilarious that Vet Fungal Grotto gets health-adjusted but not arenas.

Absolutely. Hilarious.