Oakensoul Change Take 2, Electric Boogaloo

merpins

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

Vaoh

Do people actually want this in the game....?

It’s probably going to be BiS for most people. An actual one bar meta.

This thing limits you to one bar but gives you vastly more power than anything else in the game.

Merforum

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You are right, it is hilarious, that this vid shows nothing more than crystal weapon IS OP in next patch. And conveniently it is an apples/oranges comparison because the second vid is NOT using even using crystal weapon. A VALID test is when you use the exact same skills, same rotation, same build, on changing one variable, meaning the ring.

But here is the funny part, every single one of these comparisons is showing that the 1 bar is ALWAYS WORSE than the 2 bar builds. So PROVING exactly that is in a perfect position, closing the gap but still being worse in every possible scenario. If this is OP then 2 bar builds are very OP. Not really understanding people posting this and saying AH HA, when it proves the opposite of 1bar being OP. Thanks guys keep sending the vids that prove OAKEN is well balanced now. BTW thanks for pointing out that crystal weapon might need to be re-examined.

merpins

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You are right, it is hilarious, that this vid shows nothing more than crystal weapon IS OP in next patch. And conveniently it is an apples/oranges comparison because the second vid is NOT using even using crystal weapon. A VALID test is when you use the exact same skills, same rotation, same build, on changing one variable, meaning the ring.

But here is the funny part, every single one of these comparisons is showing that the 1 bar is ALWAYS WORSE than the 2 bar builds. So PROVING exactly that is in a perfect position, closing the gap but still being worse in every possible scenario. If this is OP then 2 bar builds are very OP. Not really understanding people posting this and saying AH HA, when it proves the opposite of 1bar being OP. Thanks guys keep sending the vids that prove OAKEN is well balanced now. BTW thanks for pointing out that crystal weapon might need to be re-examined.

Right? I have a casual stam sorc Oakensoul build I'm working on that does 80k dps. If I swapped my main spammable out for crystal weapons, it jumps up to 105k dps. It's pretty bonkers really. I'm not touching the CW buff, since it's going to get a hard overhand spike right into the ground I imagine. And frags just feels so fun to use on stam, I prefer that.

darkred666

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

the primary goal of the ring is to allow players with disabilities to play more easily and with a bar it is easier to play but a bar is not always enough depending on the content.
In your 2 videos we can see that the one with 2 bars is better.
114k vs +124k.
Certainly with a 114k bar it’s huge but why not? The player has tested many combinations and found a version that works good and congratulation to him.
We have to stop complaining and saying it’s the ring’s fault.
There was a lot of build present on youtube with only one bar before the ring with good dps.

For me the ring allows to rebalance things and allows to create a multitude of crazy combination to make challenges style do dungeon solo with sets that I would have never thought used and with the constraint of having a bar. with all the current buff I know how to do the dps tanking and heal for fun and really it’s great.

To answer the question: why using 2-bar setups in future?
All simply as in video 2 with 124k+ dps I think for the hardest content it’s better to have had skill set according to the situation
and that indeed one must know one’s rotation. but that’s what teso it is necessary to invest, to train to master the perfect rotation.

merpins

darkred666 wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

the primary goal of the ring is to allow players with disabilities to play more easily and with a bar it is easier to play but a bar is not always enough depending on the content.
In your 2 videos we can see that the one with 2 bars is better.
114k vs +124k.
Certainly with a 114k bar it’s huge but why not? The player has tested many combinations and found a version that works good and congratulation to him.
We have to stop complaining and saying it’s the ring’s fault.
There was a lot of build present on youtube with only one bar before the ring with good dps.

For me the ring allows to rebalance things and allows to create a multitude of crazy combination to make challenges style do dungeon solo with sets that I would have never thought used and with the constraint of having a bar. with all the current buff I know how to do the dps tanking and heal for fun and really it’s great.

To answer the question: why using 2-bar setups in future?
All simply as in video 2 with 124k+ dps I think for the hardest content it’s better to have had skill set according to the situation
and that indeed one must know one’s rotation. but that’s what teso it is necessary to invest, to train to master the perfect rotation.

Good points! Also, gotta keep in mind that the Oakensoul test was done on the latest PTS snapshot and uses Crystal Weapons, and the non-oakensoul test is done on the current build of the game, which doesn't have the Crystal Weapons buff. With that buff, the dps of the build would jump up about 10k, making it a 20% difference as per what everyone says.

It's less of the Oakensoul over-performing in this test footage, but Crystal Weapons. without CW, the dps drops to around 100k which is where most people are at for the top-end with this item.

Merforum

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You are right, it is hilarious, that this vid shows nothing more than crystal weapon IS OP in next patch. And conveniently it is an apples/oranges comparison because the second vid is NOT using even using crystal weapon. A VALID test is when you use the exact same skills, same rotation, same build, on changing one variable, meaning the ring.

But here is the funny part, every single one of these comparisons is showing that the 1 bar is ALWAYS WORSE than the 2 bar builds. So PROVING exactly that is in a perfect position, closing the gap but still being worse in every possible scenario. If this is OP then 2 bar builds are very OP. Not really understanding people posting this and saying AH HA, when it proves the opposite of 1bar being OP. Thanks guys keep sending the vids that prove OAKEN is well balanced now. BTW thanks for pointing out that crystal weapon might need to be re-examined.

Right? I have a casual stam sorc Oakensoul build I'm working on that does 80k dps. If I swapped my main spammable out for crystal weapons, it jumps up to 105k dps. It's pretty bonkers really. I'm not touching the CW buff, since it's going to get a hard overhand spike right into the ground I imagine. And frags just feels so fun to use on stam, I prefer that.

BTW if ZOS does nerf the ring again in the future and to answer the question about how to make it mainly usable by disabled I think ZOS can add a negative effect of putting LA on the GCD so weaving is also NOT doable with ring. Since disabled gain very little benefit from LA weaving also. At that point ZOS could actually put the stats back on and a few more buffs and make it even better for disabled and essentially useless for min/maxers. Without LA weaving people wouldn't be getting anywhere near 70K-110K.

merpins

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You are right, it is hilarious, that this vid shows nothing more than crystal weapon IS OP in next patch. And conveniently it is an apples/oranges comparison because the second vid is NOT using even using crystal weapon. A VALID test is when you use the exact same skills, same rotation, same build, on changing one variable, meaning the ring.

But here is the funny part, every single one of these comparisons is showing that the 1 bar is ALWAYS WORSE than the 2 bar builds. So PROVING exactly that is in a perfect position, closing the gap but still being worse in every possible scenario. If this is OP then 2 bar builds are very OP. Not really understanding people posting this and saying AH HA, when it proves the opposite of 1bar being OP. Thanks guys keep sending the vids that prove OAKEN is well balanced now. BTW thanks for pointing out that crystal weapon might need to be re-examined.

Right? I have a casual stam sorc Oakensoul build I'm working on that does 80k dps. If I swapped my main spammable out for crystal weapons, it jumps up to 105k dps. It's pretty bonkers really. I'm not touching the CW buff, since it's going to get a hard overhand spike right into the ground I imagine. And frags just feels so fun to use on stam, I prefer that.

BTW if ZOS does nerf the ring again in the future and to answer the question about how to make it mainly usable by disabled I think ZOS can add a negative effect of putting LA on the GCD so weaving is also NOT doable with ring. Since disabled gain very little benefit from LA weaving also. At that point ZOS could actually put the stats back on and a few more buffs and make it even better for disabled and essentially useless for min/maxers.

It's possible that some disabled do not gain much benefit from LA weaving, but I know at least one person that does. He's disabled and uses an ergonomic gaming keyboard with his left hand and a mouse with his right. Clicking the left-click button poses no problems since it's not a complicated movement and, although it's repetition, it's not much movement in general to click that button.

Gotta keep in mind, there are multiple ways to have ergonomic setups that minimize pain, and so long as you use a mouse, light attack weaving it not difficult even with a disability. It's not LA weaving that hurts when you're disabled, it's the left hand that's put in pain due to the number of buttons and repetition needed for bar swapping regularly and quickly. Your right hand is pretty relaxed.

In the end, this just sounds like an argument against LA weaving in general. It's not difficult to do, even when you're disabled. It's really just about timing, and unless you have a disability that impairs reaction time, you'll do fine. Most people with a physical disability have pain, which is impairing their reaction time on their left hand specifically. Remember, you got to move your character, run, jump, bar swap, activate most if not all of your abilities, roll dodge, use potions, and toggle target creatures all with your left hand. That's why this ring is nice, it reduces inputs by half since it gets rid of a second bar, AND your swap button while making up for 75% of what's lost by doing so.

Merforum

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You are right, it is hilarious, that this vid shows nothing more than crystal weapon IS OP in next patch. And conveniently it is an apples/oranges comparison because the second vid is NOT using even using crystal weapon. A VALID test is when you use the exact same skills, same rotation, same build, on changing one variable, meaning the ring.

But here is the funny part, every single one of these comparisons is showing that the 1 bar is ALWAYS WORSE than the 2 bar builds. So PROVING exactly that is in a perfect position, closing the gap but still being worse in every possible scenario. If this is OP then 2 bar builds are very OP. Not really understanding people posting this and saying AH HA, when it proves the opposite of 1bar being OP. Thanks guys keep sending the vids that prove OAKEN is well balanced now. BTW thanks for pointing out that crystal weapon might need to be re-examined.

Right? I have a casual stam sorc Oakensoul build I'm working on that does 80k dps. If I swapped my main spammable out for crystal weapons, it jumps up to 105k dps. It's pretty bonkers really. I'm not touching the CW buff, since it's going to get a hard overhand spike right into the ground I imagine. And frags just feels so fun to use on stam, I prefer that.

BTW if ZOS does nerf the ring again in the future and to answer the question about how to make it mainly usable by disabled I think ZOS can add a negative effect of putting LA on the GCD so weaving is also NOT doable with ring. Since disabled gain very little benefit from LA weaving also. At that point ZOS could actually put the stats back on and a few more buffs and make it even better for disabled and essentially useless for min/maxers.

It's possible that some disabled do not gain much benefit from LA weaving, but I know at least one person that does. He's disabled and uses an ergonomic gaming keyboard with his left hand and a mouse with his right. Clicking the left-click button poses no problems since it's not a complicated movement and, although it's repetition, it's not much movement in general to click that button.

Gotta keep in mind, there are multiple ways to have ergonomic setups that minimize pain, and so long as you use a mouse, light attack weaving it not difficult even with a disability. It's not LA weaving that hurts when you're disabled, it's the left hand that's put in pain due to the number of buttons and repetition needed for bar swapping regularly and quickly. Your right hand is pretty relaxed.

I will admit that on mouse keyboard is more reactive than controller and actually easier to weave but I've tried every combination with mouse, keyboard, keypad, etc. The problem is the left hand key pressing, mostly continuously pushing the movement key that I can NOT handle for long. So I and many others who I have heard from say controller is best way, and on controller LA weaving is too repetitive, even when I can switch from index finger, to middle finger, to ring finger, then I have my WHOLE hand in pain instead of 1 finger. When I was 20 and a 40 year old told me they couldn't jump in basketball I had no idea what he was talking about, now I'm 54 and can't mash buttons and feel like many people who comment are just like I was.

BTW I'm just saying that if ZOS nerfs the item they can double down on it being an accessibility item. While I want as many people to benefit from the ring as possible, I would prefer it remain useful for disabled rather than nerfed so no one can use it, just because non-disabled attempt to abuse it.

merpins

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You are right, it is hilarious, that this vid shows nothing more than crystal weapon IS OP in next patch. And conveniently it is an apples/oranges comparison because the second vid is NOT using even using crystal weapon. A VALID test is when you use the exact same skills, same rotation, same build, on changing one variable, meaning the ring.

But here is the funny part, every single one of these comparisons is showing that the 1 bar is ALWAYS WORSE than the 2 bar builds. So PROVING exactly that is in a perfect position, closing the gap but still being worse in every possible scenario. If this is OP then 2 bar builds are very OP. Not really understanding people posting this and saying AH HA, when it proves the opposite of 1bar being OP. Thanks guys keep sending the vids that prove OAKEN is well balanced now. BTW thanks for pointing out that crystal weapon might need to be re-examined.

Right? I have a casual stam sorc Oakensoul build I'm working on that does 80k dps. If I swapped my main spammable out for crystal weapons, it jumps up to 105k dps. It's pretty bonkers really. I'm not touching the CW buff, since it's going to get a hard overhand spike right into the ground I imagine. And frags just feels so fun to use on stam, I prefer that.

BTW if ZOS does nerf the ring again in the future and to answer the question about how to make it mainly usable by disabled I think ZOS can add a negative effect of putting LA on the GCD so weaving is also NOT doable with ring. Since disabled gain very little benefit from LA weaving also. At that point ZOS could actually put the stats back on and a few more buffs and make it even better for disabled and essentially useless for min/maxers.

It's possible that some disabled do not gain much benefit from LA weaving, but I know at least one person that does. He's disabled and uses an ergonomic gaming keyboard with his left hand and a mouse with his right. Clicking the left-click button poses no problems since it's not a complicated movement and, although it's repetition, it's not much movement in general to click that button.

Gotta keep in mind, there are multiple ways to have ergonomic setups that minimize pain, and so long as you use a mouse, light attack weaving it not difficult even with a disability. It's not LA weaving that hurts when you're disabled, it's the left hand that's put in pain due to the number of buttons and repetition needed for bar swapping regularly and quickly. Your right hand is pretty relaxed.

I will admit that on mouse keyboard is more reactive than controller and actually easier to weave but I've tried every combination with mouse, keyboard, keypad, etc. The problem is the left hand key pressing, mostly continuously pushing the movement key that I can NOT handle for long. So I and many others who I have heard from say controller is best way, and on controller LA weaving is too repetitive, even when I can switch from index finger, to middle finger, to ring finger, then I have my WHOLE hand in pain instead of 1 finger. When I was 20 and a 40 year old told me they couldn't jump in basketball I had no idea what he was talking about, now I'm 54 and can't mash buttons and feel like many people who comment are just like I was.

I can see that, yes. I know a few people that use a controller for this reason. I also know a few that use normal mouse and keyboard, and a few that use an ergonomic keyboard, a la one that is set-up to put as little strain on your hand as possible when playing games. So while on controller, LA weaving is repetitious, I know that there are a lot of others that have no problems on a keyboard and thus LA weaving is fine.

And you point out the exact problem I was mentioning: it's not your mouse hand that hurt on a keyboard right? It was just your left hand!

So I wouldn't specifically nerf the item to remove LA weaving or put it on a cooldown for an item. Though it might not effect you as someone that doesn't LA weave due to using a controller, it would effect other disabled players negatively. Some disabled players want to do end-game content, and if you can't LA weave, this ring becomes garbage for end game content for those players. It's by no means a good item to replace two-bar builds for non-disabled players. But those that need it can use it to help in that content. I don't think it needs a nerf, it doesn't need a buff either. I think it's fine where it is now for who the ring is made for. If ZoS wants to rebalance LA weaving, they should do it across the board and not punish the small group of players that need this item.

RandomKodiak

Would also like to remind people that with Sorcs in trials as opposed to the dummy you are not allowed to use the scamp. The scamp counts as CC and your tanks are going to hate you for ruining add pulls if you hit it. As others have pointed out the crystal weapon is very powerful and is the main extra dps in the above. I will fully admit that for some PvP builds this could cause problems that is on ZoS to fix and they can, for PvE if you think this is going to be meta you are completely off base. Also no one using it can do Cloudrest as the 1 bar swap cannot be done. At this point just let it be, let us see what it can do in content and go from there, I figure it will need tweaking for PvP hopefully they do that without killing it for PvE.

Unknown_Redemption

RandomKodiak wrote: »

Would also like to remind people that with Sorcs in trials as opposed to the dummy you are not allowed to use the scamp. The scamp counts as CC and your tanks are going to hate you for ruining add pulls if you hit it. As others have pointed out the crystal weapon is very powerful and is the main extra dps in the above. I will fully admit that for some PvP builds this could cause problems that is on ZoS to fix and they can, for PvE if you think this is going to be meta you are completely off base. Also no one using it can do Cloudrest as the 1 bar swap cannot be done. At this point just let it be, let us see what it can do in content and go from there, I figure it will need tweaking for PvP hopefully they do that without killing it for PvE.

You can just run the scamp unmorphed. Its a minor dps decrease and there is no stun.

Dogvahkiin

@MovesLikeJaguar: Fair point with CrystalWeapons

Nevertheless: It will be easier to reach the respective top results with Oaken/one-bar in comparison to two bars. On dummy but especially in real content. And with this in mind, I think a 20% gap is not enough.
100k dps with only one-bar+Oaken is simply overloaded and will be easy to reach. Meanwhile 70-80k is basically enough for nearly all content. In my guild there are several players with less dps and we achieved TTT, vas+2 and VCR+3 together.

Remove Major Berserk + Major Heroism and the ring would be in a good spot IMHO: A big buff for learning and disabled players, a no brainer for dungeons (especially pugs), useful for some niche builds in high-end content - but in general not nearly a match for coordinated groups and builds with complex rotations.

Besides it's a pity that the ring favors few classes by far (strong spammables - templar, sorc) while it's nearly "useless" for some other classes (need all the dots - necro).

BTW: Thank you for the civilized, constructive discussion

merpins

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

@MovesLikeJaguar: Fair point with CrystalWeapons

Nevertheless: It will be easier to reach the respective top results with Oaken/one-bar in comparison to two bars. On dummy but especially in real content. And with this in mind, I think a 20% gap is not enough.
100k dps with only one-bar+Oaken is simply overloaded and will be easy to reach. Meanwhile 70-80k is basically enough for nearly all content. In my guild there are several players with less dps and we achieved TTT, vas+2 and VCR+3 together.

Remove Major Berserk + Major Heroism and the ring would be in a good spot IMHO: A big buff for learning and disabled players, a no brainer for dungeons (especially pugs), useful for some niche builds in high-end content - but in general not nearly a match for coordinated groups and builds with complex rotations.

Besides it's a pity that the ring favors few classes by far (strong spammables - templar, sorc) while it's nearly "useless" for some other classes (need all the dots - necro).

BTW: Thank you for the civilized, constructive discussion

I appreciate it!
Here's my two cents; the best of the best as well as content creators who are generally very well versed in the game mechanics, those are the ones that can hit the 100k dps margin. Most mid-tier players will be at the 70-80k dps margin you mention, and the top end won't bother with the ring outside of clout with youtube to show off the shiny new mythic. So I don't think it's going to be a problem at all.

If they were to remove something, removing Major Heroism would be the main thing that could be removed for the ring to still be useable. Imo it's the only bit that I'd call a bit overtuned, and only really for PVP.

Yeah, it does favor some classes over others, but the only two that really suffer here are DK and Necro. The others are fine using the ring and getting ok damage out of it. You could argue DK could also be fine, but with their ding to sustain, I'd doubt it now. For 1-bar tanking builds, though, the ring works fine on Necro and DK I'd bet.

Realistically speaking, most players that are good enough to see results from the ring will see ~80k dps. Heck, I've been playing since the closed beta, and I struggle passed 110k dps on any of my main builds. Mind you I don't like trials, so I don't have trial gear so that doesn't help. Regardless. I tried the ring when it got its current version, and I could only hit 85k dps. Really, for this ring to hit 100, you gotta be the top 1%. Of course the barrier of entry here is lower, and I'm sure I could eventually boost that 85k up to 95k with enough practice, but most people will have trouble with that, and anyone that could hit the high mark won't be using this ring outside of casual content. Same with me, I have no reason to use the build I came up with outside of random dailies and questing sometimes maybe. I might not even build it in on release, since my current build does 105k dps, but since it's not fun to play and the casual oaken build is fun to play, i might sacrifice 20% of damage to do it. Dunno. Might just be a second option on my Armory Station.

I see no problem in it at all, even in pvp. Not everyone wants to toggle on their leet gamer skills every time they play a vet dungeon. This ring not only helps players that actually need it, but it can also let people take the game a bit less seriously sometimes when running dungeons. I know that's why I sometimes play my low skill warden that does 90k dps. It's a two bar warden, but the back bar has the 2-handed execute and charge aoe with the rest being the same as the front bar. Tried that build with the oakensoul as well, also 85k dps but worse mobbing. Annoying for dungeons without mobbing tbh.

remosito

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

@Dogvahkiin

30k from crystal weapon is pretty bonkers...

your second vid is from march 16.. so not from current pts... not exactly apples to oranges.... you sure pts parse integrating crystal weapon wouldn't do more than 125k dps?

would love to see a pts 2 bar parse...

Dracane

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You really think a meager 10% dps difference is balanced when you only have to manage one bar? You are clearly biased and just want to be OP and easymode.

Please just tune this thing down. It should not even come close to this for how trivial it makes gameplay. This has gone way too far and is far beyond just helping disabled people get more satisfying results.

Dracane

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

@MovesLikeJaguar: Fair point with CrystalWeapons

Nevertheless: It will be easier to reach the respective top results with Oaken/one-bar in comparison to two bars. On dummy but especially in real content. And with this in mind, I think a 20% gap is not enough.
100k dps with only one-bar+Oaken is simply overloaded and will be easy to reach. Meanwhile 70-80k is basically enough for nearly all content. In my guild there are several players with less dps and we achieved TTT, vas+2 and VCR+3 together.

The thing with crystal weapons is indeed a good point. Regardless, like you said, even if it was 100k dps, it would be way too good for this ease of use.

People call the loss of the 2nd bar a downside, but I'd say it's one of the main plus points of this thing. Why would you want to have to use ressources and time on more skills if you can simply not and have nearly the same result? Sure I don't get into a professional trial raid with this, but this a very tiny part of the game anyway.

remosito

Dracane wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

@MovesLikeJaguar: Fair point with CrystalWeapons

Nevertheless: It will be easier to reach the respective top results with Oaken/one-bar in comparison to two bars. On dummy but especially in real content. And with this in mind, I think a 20% gap is not enough.
100k dps with only one-bar+Oaken is simply overloaded and will be easy to reach. Meanwhile 70-80k is basically enough for nearly all content. In my guild there are several players with less dps and we achieved TTT, vas+2 and VCR+3 together.

The thing with crystal weapons is indeed a good point. Regardless, like you said, even if it was 100k dps, it would be way too good for this ease of use.

.

100k vs 125k would be totally fine.

Bokila

remosito wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

@MovesLikeJaguar: Fair point with CrystalWeapons

Nevertheless: It will be easier to reach the respective top results with Oaken/one-bar in comparison to two bars. On dummy but especially in real content. And with this in mind, I think a 20% gap is not enough.
100k dps with only one-bar+Oaken is simply overloaded and will be easy to reach. Meanwhile 70-80k is basically enough for nearly all content. In my guild there are several players with less dps and we achieved TTT, vas+2 and VCR+3 together.

The thing with crystal weapons is indeed a good point. Regardless, like you said, even if it was 100k dps, it would be way too good for this ease of use.

.

100k vs 125k would be totally fine.

True. I think some people don t realise how much better 125k is compared to 100.
To put it in a simple perspective. In a 1 min fight with 25k extra dps you deal 1.5 mil more dmg and in a 5 min fight you deal 7.5 mil more dmg. That is a considerable improvement and the reason why this ring will not be meta among the top tier players.

Mr_Stach

So all that means is that lower skill players will be more effective while higher skilled players will probably still use 2 bars.

I really don't see the issue in PvE. And in PvP you are gouging out a lot of utility that you probably need. Yeah there are builds that will be crazy, but I don't think it's going to shake up the Meta.

The people Oakensoul will benefit the most are people who are probably already struggling to perform at high levels. People already at those high levels aren't going to switch it in because it's it's still going to be lower than what they can already do.

I might be completely wrong, but that's how I see it

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. It is kinda funny how around 4 years ago, when Wolfhunter DLC came out, people were outraged that WW can do 60K dps with blood moon just by Light Attacing & occasional skill use...

I clearly remember posts like: "Brain-dead rotation", or "WW does not deserve this much dps for the low effort one bar".

60K dps on one bar WW. That was the value back then. 70 - 80K was crazy high.

Now we have 1-bar ranged dps that can do around 100K with Oakensoul...

Dracane

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

60K dps on one bar WW. That was the value back then. 70 - 80K was crazy high.

Now we have 1-bar ranged dps that can do around 100K with Oakensoul...

And this time around, it's okay somehow.

Mr_Stach

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. It is kinda funny how around 4 years ago, when Wolfhunter DLC came out, people were outraged that WW can do 60K dps with blood moon just by Light Attacing & occasional skill use...

I clearly remember posts like: "Brain-dead rotation", or "WW does not deserve this much dps for the low effort one bar".

60K dps on one bar WW. That was the value back then. 70 - 80K was crazy high.

Now we have 1-bar ranged dps that can do around 100K with Oakensoul...

Some People only want their preferred playstyle to be good, balance doesn't truly matter to these people, they want to be powerful and impactful, and anyone else feeling remotely good is a threat to their personal pedestal. It's like me as a Warden main seeing buffs to any other class to be an indirect nerf to my class. It's ridiculous.

Dracane

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. It is kinda funny how around 4 years ago, when Wolfhunter DLC came out, people were outraged that WW can do 60K dps with blood moon just by Light Attacing & occasional skill use...

I clearly remember posts like: "Brain-dead rotation", or "WW does not deserve this much dps for the low effort one bar".

60K dps on one bar WW. That was the value back then. 70 - 80K was crazy high.

Now we have 1-bar ranged dps that can do around 100K with Oakensoul...

Some People only want their preferred playstyle to be good, balance doesn't truly matter to these people, they want to be powerful and impactful, and anyone else feeling remotely good is a threat to their personal pedestal. It's like me as a Warden main seeing buffs to any other class to be an indirect nerf to my class. It's ridiculous.

On the flipside, there are those who just want an easy access to power and thus shut down any voices who seek to educate on the potential overpoweredness. In this case it must be questioned, if balance doesn't truly matter to those people either.

remosito

Dracane wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

60K dps on one bar WW. That was the value back then. 70 - 80K was crazy high.

Now we have 1-bar ranged dps that can do around 100K with Oakensoul...

And this time around, it's okay somehow.

4 years ago. ceiling wasnt 130+k

am pretty sure 4 years ago.. it was *** now. some thought it was okay. others thought it wasnt.

and unlike 4 years ago. It won't just be one specc but apply to many. Quite a difference imo.

Dracane

remosito wrote: »

and unlike 4 years ago. It won't just be one specc but apply to many. Quite a difference imo.

I am unsure if that isn't worse even.

kojou

My opinion still is what it always was about this ring... It should not have defense stats on it. I feel like building a super powered juggernaut is already too easy in this game, and getting all that defense with all that damage ability is just too much.

GetAgrippa

I've never read the word "gatekeeping" so many times in my life.

merpins

Dracane wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Oakensoul https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2AA0jvhpQ
vs
traditional Setup https://youtube.com/watch?v=vnlwkbqqDYs

...obviously totally balanced


And about the arguments of "loosing 5 abilities and one ultimate, so it needs to be powerful":
That's under the assumption of managing all of your backbar abilities perfectly with 100% uptime while doing damage with your frontbar - and one bar is obviously a lot easier to play (and maintain dps) while performing mechanics.
So: why using 2-bar setups in future?

It does 10% less damage than the optimal set-up by that guy. The Layman will not be able to reproduce the results shown here, and other top-end players won't bother since the better build is obvious. This is also an outlier due to just how strong single target is on Sorc next patch due to a buff that's also coming next patch. That makes this comparison disingenuous to try to prove your point: the Traditional Build shown here is from March, and does not include the Sorc buff. If the sorc buff was included, I'd guess it would do at least 135 if not 140k dps rather than 124, proving the same point as before: Oakensoul is 20% or more less effective.

Find one with such a close comparison on any other class, or even one with the sorc buff included. I guarantee you, effectiveness will be 20% less rather than 10%, if not even worse. This is less of an Oakensoul comparison, and just showing how strong the Crystal Weapons buff is on sorc. Swap Crystal Weapons out for any other GOOD main spammable, and the dps is going to drop to 95-100k. Crystal Weapons is just bonkers next patch.

You really think a meager 10% dps difference is balanced when you only have to manage one bar? You are clearly biased and just want to be OP and easymode.

Please just tune this thing down. It should not even come close to this for how trivial it makes gameplay. This has gone way too far and is far beyond just helping disabled people get more satisfying results.

I'm sure you read my whole post and aren't just cherrypicking the first sentence, but I'll reiterate again: I did say it's only 10% but that was just as a segue to the bulk of my statement where I mentioned that in reality it was actually closer to 20%, due to the fact that the non-oakensoul video was filmed in March and didn't utilize the Sorcerer buff, whereas the Oakensoul video obviously used the Sorcerer buff. The Crystal Weapons buff boosts the non-oakensoul DPS up to around 135k which is the 20% difference everyone has been expecting.

Don't just read the first sentence and write a whole statement on it. Cherrypicking is why the media tends to get things wrong in our modern world.
I know you know that the bulk of my statement is not about the first sentence, thanks to your later replies. But it doesn't change the fact that this post is disingenuous. Which is kinda hilarious since I say the same thing about the post mine is quoting IN THE POST you're quoting.

100k Damage, which is around where the Oakensoul would be at without the Crystal Weapons buff, is fine.
Because
1. it always utilizes perfected trial gear to achieve 100k damage and, let's be real, most players do not have that.
2. without trial gear, not only is it virtually impossible to achieve the 100k damage, it's also highly unlikely to achieve more than 90k damage on a perfect parse with the ring.
3. Even with the right gear, the layman cannot perform like a top-end player, and just messing up a parse a little bit will drop your dps by a lot. I doubt a normal mid-tier player would be able to parse more than 85k dps with this setup, but it's more likely they don't have trial gear at all, so they'd probably only parse 75k dps. And parsing is way different than performing outside of a controlled environment, like in a dungeon or trial. Sure, the build is way easier to use than most 2-bar builds. But if a player can't hit the same damage numbers with exactly the same setup, they'll probably drop dps furter in an in-game setting as well.
4. top end players will not bother with this ring. Have you not seen top end players? They're pushing dps as much as they can, by small percentiles. They are absolutely not going to sacrifice 20% of their dps to make it easier to play the game. That's just not going to happen. Sure, some might make a build with oakensoul that does 100k damage. But are they going to use it? I don't think so, and if they do, I don't care because PVE hurts no one. More gameplay styles are good for the game, not bad.
5. You can make easy two-bar builds. Some that are easier than 1-bar builds, which push 120-130k dps. This ring really changes nothing that's already achievable in game through easy means. Just helps disabled players and low apm players either do a little better, or get to the benchmark to do end-game content in the case of some players.

The ring allows some players to go for trial gear and then afterwards also go for vet trial gear. Mostly for disabled players, but I'd wager some lower APM players will be helped by it. Not that it matters much.

Mr_Stach

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

4. top end players will not bother with this ring. Have you not seen top end players? They're pushing dps as much as they can, by small percentiles. They are absolutely not going to sacrifice 20% of their dps to make it easier to play the game. That's just not going to happen. Sure, some might make a build with oakensoul that does 100k damage. But are they going to use it? I don't think so, and if they do, I don't care because PVE hurts no one. More gameplay styles are good for the game, not bad.

I think this is the largest bottom line on Oakensoul. It's is 100% not going to be Meta Defining. Top Performers will do a hard pass and Low Performers that either have a hard time bar swapping or others who don't care to will use it. Bringing up the DPS Floor is not a bad thing.

For PvP I still don't think it will be earth shattering. It's a similar issue, there will be some Niche things, but there will still be more powerful options.