Oakensoul Change Take 2, Electric Boogaloo

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip]. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip]. Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[snip]

[snip]

BTW the PVPers got proc set nerfed, got HA sets nerfed, got tanky builds nerfed, anything that is competitive against that only 2 playstyles (ganking, hit and run high apm) IS NOT ALLOWED according to those PVPer. Don't want that to happed again.

[edited to remove quote]

merpins

The_Lex wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip]. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip]. Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[snip]

Then don't say the item is broken in PVP, and thus needs a nerf. Say "ZoS needs to balance PVE and PVP separately," because there's TONS of underpowered stuff in the game that can't be boosted because of PVP, and TONS of OP stuff in pvp that can't be nerfed because it would wreck PVE. I think we can all agree that PVP and PVE need to be balanced separately if only to make the game itself more balanced in general.

[edited to remove quote]

Vylaera

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip]. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip]. Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[snip]

You aren't but others are when they had nothing to say about earlier version. But like I said as long as ZOS ignores the high APM PVPer who will naturally whine about anything that evens the playing field, I am OK. Just don't want the item to actually become too powerful (which it isn't) and ZOS nerf into ground.

BTW the PVPers got proc set nerfed, got HA sets nerfed, got tanky builds nerfed, anything that is competitive against that only 2 playstyles (ganking, hit and run high apm) IS NOT ALLOWED according to those PVPer. Don't want that to happed again.

Calm down bro.
It goes both ways. Demonizing PvP players because ZOS can't figure out how use battlespirit to balance pvp separately in a more robust way is not the fault of people who enjoy PvPing.

In PvP, there's a ton of stuff we can't use because buffing it would be too powerful for PvE. Literally no one complains about that. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

LukosCreyden

I wonder if they regret making this mythic lol

Tommy_The_Gun

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

maintain ww form as long as possible with Major Heroism.

I don't know If I understood it correctly, but this will only help in getting into WW form faster, as in WW form ultimate points generation is disabled, so Heroism buff (minor & major) becomes a "dead weight" once you are a Werewolf.

From a WW perspective, the only 3 things this Mythic gives are:
+ Major Courage (+430 weapon damage).
+ Major Protection (Reduces damage taken by 10%).
+/- Major Force (Increases critical damage done by 20%) - but for that you need to have decent crit chance so it is either good, or something you wont even notice.

The other buffs are things that WW already has. Imho Oakensoul for a WW will be inferior to other mythics - like Gaze of Sithis or Shapeshifter's Chain.

I think that Oakensoul will be um... kinda a niche set tbh. Pretty much only used for a simple one-bar PvE DPS... which is exactly what ZOS wanted... Kinda shame tbh to limit a use case for an item like that. Still, it will be imho insanely powerful, but it will require a purpose - made build, so that the buffs will not overlap.

Also, a closing thought: Something that not many people realise - Oakensoul, aside from not having a stamina & speed buff, will offer very similar buffs to what Werewolf passives are. And in some cases it will be even better:

- Major Courage (WW has Minor Courage).
- Major Protection (WW has same thing, but as a unique buff).
- Major Brutality & Sorcery (same as WW).
- Major Resolve (same as WW).
- Major Berserk (WW Hircine's Rage skill, but it also make you take 5% more dmg).
- Minor Endurance, Fortitude, Intellect (WW Hircine's Fortitude will have it next patch, so you can not have both this & brutality at the same time, as it comes from different skill morph).
- Major Force (WW does not have it).
- Major Heroism (WW does not have it).

So, it may come to a situation in which 1-bar build with Oakensoul will outperform WW (even if WW will also use Oakensoul), as regular 1-bar build will pretty much have almost same buffs & passives that WW has (with minor nuances), but it won't have all of the flaws that WW has (limited toolkit & skill set, more poison & fighters guild dmg taken, more expensive skills etc).

At this point, using WW in any content seems to be purely cosmetic it seem. If we would have a WW polymorph, then I bet every WW player out there would use Oakensoul + WW polymorph instead of using actual WW transformation.

Oakensoul is pretty much "A Werewolf in a Mythic", but better.

There is also one thing that imho can be problematic - min-maxing PvP bombers / gankers. Every one was so focused on WW in PvP, but it seems people forgot that other PvP builds exists. Just imagine what Oakensoul will enable when it come to ganking. It will be so strong that we might even see a return on Snipe builds. And Bombers for sure will be OP AF with it.

The_Lex

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip]. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip]. Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[snip]

Then don't say the item is broken in PVP, and thus needs a nerf. Say "ZoS needs to balance PVE and PVP separately," because there's TONS of underpowered stuff in the game that can't be boosted because of PVP, and TONS of OP stuff in pvp that can't be nerfed because it would wreck PVE. I think we can all agree that PVP and PVE need to be balanced separately if only to make the game itself more balanced in general.

Can you please show me where I said that it needs to be nerfed? In fact, I said 2 things: 1) I agreed that it obviates a few ultis and sets; and 2) that my gankblade salivated…as in, looking forward to it. I don’t call for nerfs.

[edited to remove quote]

The_Lex

The_Lex wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip]. Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[snip]

Then don't say the item is broken in PVP, and thus needs a nerf. Say "ZoS needs to balance PVE and PVP separately," because there's TONS of underpowered stuff in the game that can't be boosted because of PVP, and TONS of OP stuff in pvp that can't be nerfed because it would wreck PVE. I think we can all agree that PVP and PVE need to be balanced separately if only to make the game itself more balanced in general.

Can you please show me where I said that it needs to be nerfed? In fact, I said 2 things: 1) I agreed that it obviates a few ultis and sets; and 2) that my gankblade salivated…as in, looking forward to it. I don’t call for nerfs.

I stopped calling for nerfs years ago. I now use whatever broken/unbalanced thing they put into the game.

[edited to remove quote]

chessalavakia_ESO

I think this will likely kill the item in the long run for people that aren't limited to one bar due to circumstance. It's too good to not get nerfed and it's too non-specific get nerfed in a manner the leaves it appealing.

Tannus15

I really like the new design. I think the lacking minor force is totally fine and that people can decide if they want that buff from a skill with REALLY good passives or from 2 of the most popular PVE sets, medusa or tzogvin. it's also worth pointing out that one of the strongest sets, kinra, is flat out bad with this item.

Major force isn't that difficult for a veteran trials group to have good uptimes for, but it's not guaranteed, and in a situation where it's less than 50% this ring is amazing.

I have a feeling it might be my go to for "trash" content where I don't want to use expensive potions like non DLC pledges.

For people calling for minor courage instead of major courage i'm confused. It's significantly easier for inexperienced trials groups to maintain minor courage via yolnah than major courage from SPC / olo. It's literally "is the tank keeping taunt". In any situation where neither of these buffs are provided major is significantly better.

Merforum

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think this will likely kill the item in the long run for people that aren't limited to one bar due to circumstance. It's too good to not get nerfed and it's too non-specific get nerfed in a manner the leaves it appealing.

Agreed this is my point. People without disabilities are trying to get another Meta item without caring about what happens in the future. When it inevitably become too powerful and abused by non-disabled players then nerfed so it is useless to everyone.

Jman100582

Merforum wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip]. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip]. Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[snip]

You aren't but others are when they had nothing to say about earlier version. But like I said as long as ZOS ignores the high APM PVPer who will naturally whine about anything that evens the playing field, I am OK. Just don't want the item to actually become too powerful (which it isn't) and ZOS nerf into ground.

This ring won’t be used to very good effect in pvp unless you’re a ganker or a ww. Having one bar with this mythic won’t equal the playing field for you at all. In pvp there are many abilities that are slotted that don’t even give buffs, they are used for the utility. The only reason gankers will use this is because they don’t need to line up 3-4 dmg abilities and dots to kill someone, they just need two abilities and sometimes an ultimate. At least the good ones do. You cannot afford to lose out on utility skills such as skills that heal, debuff, snare, or help mobility. Not unless you play in a highly optimized group with several healers and tanks. In which case you will provide little to nothing to said group, and they won’t even really want to play with you

Tldr: this mythic won’t provide anything for a low apm pvper, you will lose out on utility skills and that’ll make you 10x easier to kill than before

[edited to remove quote]

Dracane

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

>implying crit ganks aren't already hitting the crit cap on Live

Bad critique, this isn't NEARLY as useful as you think it is

I imply it, because they do not reach it.

Merforum

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip]. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip]. Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[snip]

You aren't but others are when they had nothing to say about earlier version. But like I said as long as ZOS ignores the high APM PVPer who will naturally whine about anything that evens the playing field, I am OK. Just don't want the item to actually become too powerful (which it isn't) and ZOS nerf into ground.

This ring won’t be used to very good effect in pvp unless you’re a ganker or a ww. Having one bar with this mythic won’t equal the playing field for you at all. In pvp there are many abilities that are slotted that don’t even give buffs, they are used for the utility. The only reason gankers will use this is because they don’t need to line up 3-4 dmg abilities and dots to kill someone, they just need two abilities and sometimes an ultimate. At least the good ones do. You cannot afford to lose out on utility skills such as skills that heal, debuff, snare, or help mobility. Not unless you play in a highly optimized group with several healers and tanks. In which case you will provide little to nothing to said group, and they won’t even really want to play with you

Tldr: this mythic won’t provide anything for a low apm pvper, you will lose out on utility skills and that’ll make you 10x easier to kill than before

Very good so there is no reason to complain about it. I specifically am NOT asking for something to be OP in PVE or PVP. Just something that will make life a little easier. I can do OK in PVP but have had a situation where something as simple as thinking I bar swapped and didn't and not healing because of that, happens a lot. Or not realizing a buff fell off like brutality/armor. This mythic will help people like me, but not be worth using for people who don't have those problems. Which seems like the correct balance.

[edited to remove quote]

Vylaera

Dracane wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

>implying crit ganks aren't already hitting the crit cap on Live

Bad critique, this isn't NEARLY as useful as you think it is

I imply it, because they do not reach it.

Khajiit, The Shadow, Minor Force, Medium armor, CP and you're there. You can very easily reach the crit cap on Live and even go beyond it easily too. My gank is at 128% and I didn't even try.

This is not a good gank mythic because you don't have a backbar for healing. As long as you don't mind dying all the time then sure, it would get good damage. But you immediately lose your survivability because you no longer have a backbar heal.

Jman100582

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

>implying crit ganks aren't already hitting the crit cap on Live

Bad critique, this isn't NEARLY as useful as you think it is

I imply it, because they do not reach it.

Khajiit, The Shadow, Minor Force, Medium armor, CP and you're there. You can very easily reach the crit cap on Live and even go beyond it easily too. My gank is at 128% and I didn't even try.

This is not a good gank mythic because you don't have a backbar for healing. As long as you don't mind dying all the time then sure, it would get good damage. But you immediately lose your survivability because you no longer have a backbar heal.

A ganker has one job: kill one person as fast as possible and get away. Also because the mythic has major force on it, it allows you to drop shadow mundus, or crit cp, or kahjiit, in favor of something else to get the dmg you need. A ganker can kill you relatively easily on live currently with caluurions. Now that caluurion will hit even harder because of major berserk, and they can choose to get more weapon dmg/pen as well because they have an over abundance of crit dmg they can drop. Cloak, race against time, surprise attack, assassins will. That leaves one flex spot, which will most likely be left to be a heal of some sort or maybe shade to just teleport away

The mythic bonuses easily surpass a 5 piece in terms of dmg increases. If all your build cares about is dmg, it’s a no brainer to use this instead. Ofc if your build wants some survivability you won’t run it, but neither gankers or bombers should be worried about that

Lazuli

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

merpins

Lazuli wrote: »

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

I think an argument can be made for Minor Force, but I agree Major Force is good as is.

I also agree, the stats were nice. I understand why they got rid of them, which is due to the design of the item moving away from flat stats in favor of named buffs, but I mean... I don't think there are any named buffs in ESO that increase your max stats. I think the game could do with a "Minor Mana" and "Major Mana" buff, increasing max magicka by 1000 and 2000 respectively, a "Minor Energy" and "Major Energy" buff increasing Stam in the same increments, and then a "Minor Vitality" and "Major Vitality" buff that increase HP by 1500 and 3000 respectively. That could be used in some aspects of the game, though knowing ZoS such an implemented idea would seep its way into places players would hate, but I mean... It'd be an interesting idea for this mythic item. Not that it needs the max stats, they're just nice to have.

As for Minor and Major sustain buffs, those aren't necessary. Just run Tripots. They give the major buffs and are given out like candy! And when you don't have them, they're not as expensive as they used to be.

Vylaera

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Lazuli wrote: »

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

I think an argument can be made for Minor Force, but I agree Major Force is good as is.

I also agree, the stats were nice. I understand why they got rid of them, which is due to the design of the item moving away from flat stats in favor of named buffs, but I mean... I don't think there are any named buffs in ESO that increase your max stats. I think the game could do with a "Minor Mana" and "Major Mana" buff, increasing max magicka by 1000 and 2000 respectively, a "Minor Energy" and "Major Energy" buff increasing Stam in the same increments, and then a "Minor Vitality" and "Major Vitality" buff that increase HP by 1500 and 3000 respectively. That could be used in some aspects of the game, though knowing ZoS such an implemented idea would seep its way into places players would hate, but I mean... It'd be an interesting idea for this mythic item. Not that it needs the max stats, they're just nice to have.

As for Minor and Major sustain buffs, those aren't necessary. Just run Tripots. They give the major buffs and are given out like candy! And when you don't have them, they're not as expensive as they used to be.

Allow me to introduce you to

Merforum

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Lazuli wrote: »

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

I think an argument can be made for Minor Force, but I agree Major Force is good as is.

I also agree, the stats were nice. I understand why they got rid of them, which is due to the design of the item moving away from flat stats in favor of named buffs, but I mean... I don't think there are any named buffs in ESO that increase your max stats. I think the game could do with a "Minor Mana" and "Major Mana" buff, increasing max magicka by 1000 and 2000 respectively, a "Minor Energy" and "Major Energy" buff increasing Stam in the same increments, and then a "Minor Vitality" and "Major Vitality" buff that increase HP by 1500 and 3000 respectively. That could be used in some aspects of the game, though knowing ZoS such an implemented idea would seep its way into places players would hate, but I mean... It'd be an interesting idea for this mythic item. Not that it needs the max stats, they're just nice to have.

As for Minor and Major sustain buffs, those aren't necessary. Just run Tripots. They give the major buffs and are given out like candy! And when you don't have them, they're not as expensive as they used to be.

Name: Minor Toughness
Effect: Increases Maximum Health by 10%

Vylaera

I don't think adding minor toughness and, to invent complimentary buffs, Minor Intelligence and Minor Agility, would be a good idea. I think the ring would be too stacked and you could easy hit like 50k magicka with a % modifier.

Finedaible

If they can give the effort to create a mythic which gives passive, 100% uptime to a handful of rare buffs they can certainly put some effort into buffing the class skills which have been obsolete for years.

I'm tired of this sets and Mythics nonsense, just make class choices interesting and unique again.

Faylestar

Might consider using it over RoPo for solo play in most content.

Still not going to compete with other mythics for 'real' content.

merpins

Faylestar wrote: »

Might consider using it over RoPo for solo play in most content.

Still not going to compete with other mythics for 'real' content.

I'd argue it kinda does. Depending on your build, it's now better than the Sea Serpent's Coil, coming out in the same expansion. I'll still use the coil on my magplar, because condensing down to one bar would be difficult for my main, but it seems like it could be a good choice, depending on how simple your build already is. Wardens and Stam Sorcs especially will have a good time with this, though none will be optimal per se. It'll just be a different playstyle giving up about 20% of your damage to make an easier build. Not that it's really for that, it's for people that specifically cannot play 2 bar builds for whatever reason, but consequence of that is now other people can make more casual builds as well. It's not a bad thing though.

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Lazuli wrote: »

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

I think an argument can be made for Minor Force, but I agree Major Force is good as is.

I also agree, the stats were nice. I understand why they got rid of them, which is due to the design of the item moving away from flat stats in favor of named buffs, but I mean... I don't think there are any named buffs in ESO that increase your max stats. I think the game could do with a "Minor Mana" and "Major Mana" buff, increasing max magicka by 1000 and 2000 respectively, a "Minor Energy" and "Major Energy" buff increasing Stam in the same increments, and then a "Minor Vitality" and "Major Vitality" buff that increase HP by 1500 and 3000 respectively. That could be used in some aspects of the game, though knowing ZoS such an implemented idea would seep its way into places players would hate, but I mean... It'd be an interesting idea for this mythic item. Not that it needs the max stats, they're just nice to have.

As for Minor and Major sustain buffs, those aren't necessary. Just run Tripots. They give the major buffs and are given out like candy! And when you don't have them, they're not as expensive as they used to be.

Name: Minor Toughness
Effect: Increases Maximum Health by 10%

BTW I don't mind your idea about more buffs that effect mag/stam/health. I don't understand why they were 3737 and went to zero that is kind of a big jump. Don't know if they would implement new buffs just for this but maybe it would be nice if the ring offered something like 5-10% increase of highest stat, to make it good for all roles. Although the way it is now should be OK have to test on PTS.

Bokila

Okay ZOS, i ll buy the expansion.

propertyOfUndefined

This item is so good now that I’m trying to figure out which 5 skills to drop on my non-werewolf necromancer. Not complaining… Just saying it’s more attractive to me now than it was originally (during week 1)

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Lazuli wrote: »

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

I think an argument can be made for Minor Force, but I agree Major Force is good as is.

I also agree, the stats were nice. I understand why they got rid of them, which is due to the design of the item moving away from flat stats in favor of named buffs, but I mean... I don't think there are any named buffs in ESO that increase your max stats. I think the game could do with a "Minor Mana" and "Major Mana" buff, increasing max magicka by 1000 and 2000 respectively, a "Minor Energy" and "Major Energy" buff increasing Stam in the same increments, and then a "Minor Vitality" and "Major Vitality" buff that increase HP by 1500 and 3000 respectively. That could be used in some aspects of the game, though knowing ZoS such an implemented idea would seep its way into places players would hate, but I mean... It'd be an interesting idea for this mythic item. Not that it needs the max stats, they're just nice to have.

As for Minor and Major sustain buffs, those aren't necessary. Just run Tripots. They give the major buffs and are given out like candy! And when you don't have them, they're not as expensive as they used to be.

Name: Minor Toughness
Effect: Increases Maximum Health by 10%

BTW I don't mind your idea about more buffs that effect mag/stam/health. I don't understand why they were 3737 and went to zero that is kind of a big jump. Don't know if they would implement new buffs just for this but maybe it would be nice if the ring offered something like 5-10% increase of highest stat, to make it good for all roles. Although the way it is now should be OK have to test on PTS.

Well initial testing on PTS for me at least with mostly just skills and heavy rotation non opitimized is that DPS is slightly worse than last week and worse than before they nerfed HA sets. And this is with using a maelstrom shock staff, which actually still has the same bonus they nerfed. That is for my simple sorc shock HA build. Health did deplete somewhat but never got below 25% and didn't even use matriarch more than a couple times.

For my easy tank templar/WW build, it appears be equally tanky as last week but doing a bit more damage. Which on a tank isn't that important but since that build is meant to be for pugs, can be OK. BTW were talking about 5-7K DPS to 8-10K (only with sweeps though) DPS, higher as WW. Absolutely no prob surviving, health bar hardly moves (especially with sweeps instead of jabs which I chose cuz mjr Brut dupe). BTW all my test are on REAL content soloing REAL dungeons, not on a dummy.

Conclusion so far the changes are NOT OP at all and maybe even worse than last week on my specific builds, as far as damage and survival. But 1bar is still great option and will probably use this a lot if it goes live as is. Real test will be in PVP for me where not keeping up buffs is more of a problem for me.

Vylaera

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Lazuli wrote: »

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

I think an argument can be made for Minor Force, but I agree Major Force is good as is.

I also agree, the stats were nice. I understand why they got rid of them, which is due to the design of the item moving away from flat stats in favor of named buffs, but I mean... I don't think there are any named buffs in ESO that increase your max stats. I think the game could do with a "Minor Mana" and "Major Mana" buff, increasing max magicka by 1000 and 2000 respectively, a "Minor Energy" and "Major Energy" buff increasing Stam in the same increments, and then a "Minor Vitality" and "Major Vitality" buff that increase HP by 1500 and 3000 respectively. That could be used in some aspects of the game, though knowing ZoS such an implemented idea would seep its way into places players would hate, but I mean... It'd be an interesting idea for this mythic item. Not that it needs the max stats, they're just nice to have.

As for Minor and Major sustain buffs, those aren't necessary. Just run Tripots. They give the major buffs and are given out like candy! And when you don't have them, they're not as expensive as they used to be.

Name: Minor Toughness
Effect: Increases Maximum Health by 10%

BTW I don't mind your idea about more buffs that effect mag/stam/health. I don't understand why they were 3737 and went to zero that is kind of a big jump. Don't know if they would implement new buffs just for this but maybe it would be nice if the ring offered something like 5-10% increase of highest stat, to make it good for all roles. Although the way it is now should be OK have to test on PTS.

Well initial testing on PTS for me at least with mostly just skills and heavy rotation non opitimized is that DPS is slightly worse than last week and worse than before they nerfed HA sets. And this is with using a maelstrom shock staff, which actually still has the same bonus they nerfed. That is for my simple sorc shock HA build. Health did deplete somewhat but never got below 25% and didn't even use matriarch more than a couple times.

For my easy tank templar/WW build, it appears be equally tanky as last week but doing a bit more damage. Which on a tank isn't that important but since that build is meant to be for pugs, can be OK. BTW were talking about 5-7K DPS to 8-10K (only with sweeps though) DPS, higher as WW. Absolutely no prob surviving, health bar hardly moves (especially with sweeps instead of jabs which I chose cuz mjr Brut dupe). BTW all my test are on REAL content soloing REAL dungeons, not on a dummy.

Conclusion so far the changes are NOT OP at all and maybe even worse than last week on my specific builds, as far as damage and survival. But 1bar is still great option and will probably use this a lot if it goes live as is. Real test will be in PVP for me where not keeping up buffs is more of a problem for me.

Did a few parses on both a 3mil skelly and on a 21mil Iron Atro and I appear to be getting MUCH higher DPS on the skelly but roughly the same on the iron atronach.

Sustain is very nice but not too high, damage is nice but not too high (on a raid dummy, it's very good on the skeleton).

I think the ring is doing what it set out to do very well. I still would like the Major Courage to be Minor Courage but if it doesn't get changed then I'm fine with this going live.

fred4

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

For everyone talking about PVP gankers: I mean, a good set comes out and gankers are going to use it. That's just how it goes in any game with open world PVP. This set is no different; they'll change up their loadout a bit to use this ring in place of some other crit bonus item they may be using, and one shot people with it. They can already one-shot lots of people without the ring. I don't think it changes anything, but it does make it easier for people to build a gank character I'd bet. You can do the same without the ring, the ring just makes it easier and since I don't play pvp anymore, I can't say whether that's a bad thing. I don't think it really is.

You and other(s) who have implied that most gankers are already at the crit cap are wrong. Some are. Others build for pen. Most use Caluurion. That set gives you crit%, not crit damage. It is not so easy to reach the cap as a single player. If you do, you're currently giving up something else. You may be a Khajiit. You may be wearing Archer's Mind. That will change. Now you can build for flat damage instead and that will stack with having +20% crit damage from Major Force. That's a buff you previously only had from ganking with the resto ult, e.g. during (ranged) heavy attack ganking. It's probably good the ring doesn't stack Major Force with that particular playstyle, but then again it just gives you the Major Force all the time. 100% uptime from cloak with no lead-up skill to cast or restriction on being in combat is a big deal. This also buffs bog-standard melee nightblades. The way those have been handled in previous patches is by disabling certain sets from activating outside of combat, e.g. Clever Alchemist. Activating your Infused back bar damage enchant is also a "no" for a ganker. Oakensoul will give you Major Courage all the time. It will be strong for gankers. The only question is whether it's over the top. I won't claim that I can answer that. What I will say is that, if I choose to continue playing, I shall be compelled to buy this expansion.

It's wrong, by the way, to say that nightblades can one shot everyone already. They can't. The balance has always revolved around playstyles that work in a sufficiently large range of situations and against moderately tanky targets to be attractive. One shot stamsorc and nightblade builds really take off in patches that are very high damage, such as last summer. In the current patch as well (or was it last one?) I found there were one shot flame heavy attack DKs and, reportedly, nightblades. Their prevalence seems to have abated, but I probably don't PvP enough right now to be confident about that. I think there must be a novelty factor to such builds, but they don't appear to be versatile enough to be satisfying long term. Either that, or the meta shifts towards tankier setups as a whole, which is also quite possible. Nonetheless, in any patch that is sufficiently high damage, or with something like Oakensoul, you can reach a tipping point where that changes. I, for one, have my single bar already worked out. Something like:

Concealed Weapon
Shrewd Offering
Whirlwind or Relentless Focus
Race Against Time
Shadowy Disguise
Soul Harvest or Incap

Race Against Time will be quite a must have, at least for me. I will be giving up Wild Hunt and I already use RAT, even with Wild Hunt. This is why Major Force, as opposed to Minor, will definitely be a buff for me. I will be stacking it with Minor Force. "Oh well", you say, "he's playing a Breton melee magblade, maybe he deserves a buff to that underdog class." That is where you would be wrong. I think magblade still has some disadvantages over stamblade in the damage department. The Minor Savagery doesn't apply. Not using Surprise Attack loses you the Sundered status. You tend to be a bit squishier, wearing more light armor. You lose damage, if you build for the high cloak sustain that makes magblade feel unique. I think there is still a gap to stamblade, however that gap has shrunk. Magblade ain't that bad and, as you can see from the above, it's the age of hybrids anyway. A nightblade is a nightblade these days.

fred4

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I wonder if they regret making this mythic lol

No, they're rubbing their hands together. Controversy is good. It being slightly OP is good. Makes endgame players, who would otherwise have no interest in it, buy the expansion.