Oakensoul Change Take 2, Electric Boogaloo

merpins

-This set no longer grants 3737 Health, Magicka, and Stamina.
-Replaced the Major Endurance, Fortitude, and Intellect with their Minor buff counterparts as these are far harder to obtain.
-This set now also grants Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Berserk, Major Protection, Major Force, and Major Heroism.

I think this is a better route to take the ring than before, no question. Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, plus the change of the Major Endurance, fortitude, and intellect buffs to minor buffs means tripots will now be useful and the use of weapon or spell power pots will no longer be viable. Major Berserk helps. But then we get to the additional buffs...

What do you all think about Major Protection, Major Force, and Major Heroism? Major Force is... Good, but falls into the same trappings as the other buffs in that it's a normal group buff for trials. It's not a bad bonus to the ring by any means, and isn't even regularly used in vet dungeons. It's basically only used in really end-game trials, and the uptime usually isn't 100%, so it's probably fine, but I wouldn't be mad if it was turned into Minor Force. I think Major Courage is still a bad step, it should be a flat bonus. It's arguably better than minor Courage, but you could argue it the other way too... Just make a new unique bonus; "Major Rage" which is unique to the ring, and gives a smaller bonus than Major Courage, but a larger one than Minor, like right in the middle with 320.
What about the removal of the max attribute stats? Are the current buffs good enough, or are they still moot for end-game play like trials without the max stats?

The implications for pvp aren't something I'm good at judging though, since I don't particularly like pvp. This looks really strong for pvp, but I'd need a second educated opinion on that, if someone wants to comment on it. This probably comes down to pvp and pve needs to be balanced separately, otherwise the design of this item will be either too weak or too strong.

TLDR: Major courage should be a flat bonus. Minor Courage is also covered in the same way Major is, so a flat bonus is better. Major Force is probably fine, but could be Minor Force. I'm no expert on PVP, but the ring, if Courage is changed, would be in a good place for PVE. PVP should be balanced separately.

Vylaera

Honestly, this is a good change.

I still want the Major Courage changed to Minor Courage, since werewolves get minor courage from passives (eliminates werewolf power creep) and you get Major Courage from healers and such.

The removal of max stats bites since you're getting all the bonuses you'd be getting normally on a 2 bar build but then you don't have the extra damage from backbarred AOEs and DOTs. However, you do get Major Berserk from it now, so you don't have to use Kinras' Wrath. This frees up another set option for something like Siroria, Relequen, or even Medusa or Tzogvin, so all-in-all, I think it's a fair trade.

Other than that, I think these are all good changes and if it goes live, I would be okay with it.

We did good fellas, mythic has been saved.

Dagoth_Rac

Minor Force is a fairly common buff to have 100% of time in a group, either from a set or a skill like Barbed Trap or Channeled Acceleration. Major Force is a common group buff, but 100% uptime is much harder to get. This will make it possible to have 100% uptime on Minor Force and Major Force which will be very helpful, especially in mid-tier groups that are working on hard content but are not min/max meta leaderboard groups. The prior buffs were all stuff that even baby Trial groups will have just about all the time. This feels like it is in a spot where it is very useful to good players, but less useful to great players. Which is probably where they want it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Can you link the ring as it is now on the PTS? the description is not going to be cluttered again like it was originally is it?

Also doesn't Major Herosim only grant Ultimate when in combat? when in Werewolf form Ultimate Generation is disabled.

merpins

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Honestly, this is a good change.

I still want the Major Courage changed to Minor Courage, since werewolves get minor courage from passives (eliminates werewolf power creep) and you get Major Courage from healers and such.

The removal of max stats bites since you're getting all the bonuses you'd be getting normally on a 2 bar build but then you don't have the extra damage from backbarred AOEs and DOTs. However, you do get Major Berserk from it now, so you don't have to use Kinras' Wrath. This frees up another set option for something like Siroria, Relequen, or even Medusa or Tzogvin, so all-in-all, I think it's a fair trade.

Other than that, I think these are all good changes and if it goes live, I would be okay with it.

We did good fellas, mythic has been saved.

I'd agree with this from a PVE perspective. If they change Major Courage and Major Force into their minor counterparts, because like Major Courage, Minor force is also covered by healers or warhorn, then I think it would be great. For PVE. I cannot judge this for pvp though, I'm sure some people will cry it's OP there, and I'd have little to no frame of reference to argue it.

merpins

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Minor Force is a fairly common buff to have 100% of time in a group, either from a set or a skill like Barbed Trap or Channeled Acceleration. Major Force is a common group buff, but 100% uptime is much harder to get. This will make it possible to have 100% uptime on Minor Force and Major Force which will be very helpful, especially in mid-tier groups that are working on hard content but are not min/max meta leaderboard groups. The prior buffs were all stuff that even baby Trial groups will have just about all the time. This feels like it is in a spot where it is very useful to good players, but less useful to great players. Which is probably where they want it.

A one-bar build doesn't usually have room for Minor Force. Same with lots of 2-bar builds. That's one reason why Tzogvin's is such a popular set, not only does it give you crit but it also gives you another spot on your bar for something else. Major Force can only be gained through group play, which is why I think this should be Minor Force instead. It lowers the power in non-group play, but makes it closer to end game for end-game group play. Otherwise this is a ring that gives you... Major Berserk and Major Heroism and that's it in trials? Nah, it needs Minor Courage and Minor Force instead of the major buffs there to help in end game content. But that's just my opinion. Minor Courage will be enough of a change for the item to be in a perfect place. Maybe Major Force is fine, dunno. Just means everyone running this will probably also run Tzogvins.

TPishek

I will literally never dig this trash up, lol.

Dracane

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

bbpotts2ub17_ESO

Honestly, Im happy with these changes and will use it when it goes live. Im not upset at these changes

merpins

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

Personally, I think Minor Force is a better choice here. It opens up more set options and doesnt force the player to use trap. In PVE it's probably fine as is; everyone will just use Tzogvins. But in PVP, it's probably too strong but I don't have a solid frame of reference to tell.

Vylaera

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Honestly, this is a good change.

I still want the Major Courage changed to Minor Courage, since werewolves get minor courage from passives (eliminates werewolf power creep) and you get Major Courage from healers and such.

The removal of max stats bites since you're getting all the bonuses you'd be getting normally on a 2 bar build but then you don't have the extra damage from backbarred AOEs and DOTs. However, you do get Major Berserk from it now, so you don't have to use Kinras' Wrath. This frees up another set option for something like Siroria, Relequen, or even Medusa or Tzogvin, so all-in-all, I think it's a fair trade.

Other than that, I think these are all good changes and if it goes live, I would be okay with it.

We did good fellas, mythic has been saved.

I'd agree with this from a PVE perspective. If they change Major Courage and Major Force into their minor counterparts, because like Major Courage, Minor force is also covered by healers or warhorn, then I think it would be great. For PVE. I cannot judge this for pvp though, I'm sure some people will cry it's OP there, and I'd have little to no frame of reference to argue it.

It's now in a perfect spot, considering everything, PvE and PvP included.

In PvE, this now gives groups 100% uptime on Major Force, which was usually only tenable for super hyper organized groups. This is a leg up for group comps that are less than the best.

Minor Force isn't hard to get. Medusa, Tzogvin, Barbed Trap, Accelerate, even an overland set grants it - Gryphons Ferocity.

For PvP, this ring's buffs make it competitive with 2bar builds where you can very easily acquire most of those buffs and more with 100% uptime, so the ring now covers that. It's not OP, and cannot be considered OP in any way, because it's now the same stats as a standard setup - frontbar and backbar set, monster set plus mythic.

The ring is now basically perfect and aside from Major Courage changed to Minor Courage I'd want, it is now balanced very well. ZOS did a great job this time around.

prof_doom

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

It's the biggest problem with this mythic. If there was literally no complaints about it being "too much", it would mean it's completely worthless. Heck, 2/3 of the people in the forum already think it's completely worthless.

Dracane

prof_doom wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

It's the biggest problem with this mythic. If there was literally no complaints about it being "too much", it would mean it's completely worthless. Heck, 2/3 of the people in the forum already think it's completely worthless.

I was one of them. Now I think it is too many powerful major buffs.

merpins

BroughBreaux wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Honestly, this is a good change.

I still want the Major Courage changed to Minor Courage, since werewolves get minor courage from passives (eliminates werewolf power creep) and you get Major Courage from healers and such.

The removal of max stats bites since you're getting all the bonuses you'd be getting normally on a 2 bar build but then you don't have the extra damage from backbarred AOEs and DOTs. However, you do get Major Berserk from it now, so you don't have to use Kinras' Wrath. This frees up another set option for something like Siroria, Relequen, or even Medusa or Tzogvin, so all-in-all, I think it's a fair trade.

Other than that, I think these are all good changes and if it goes live, I would be okay with it.

We did good fellas, mythic has been saved.

I'd agree with this from a PVE perspective. If they change Major Courage and Major Force into their minor counterparts, because like Major Courage, Minor force is also covered by healers or warhorn, then I think it would be great. For PVE. I cannot judge this for pvp though, I'm sure some people will cry it's OP there, and I'd have little to no frame of reference to argue it.

It's now in a perfect spot, considering everything, PvE and PvP included.

In PvE, this now gives groups 100% uptime on Major Force, which was usually only tenable for super hyper organized groups. This is a leg up for group comps that are less than the best.

Minor Force isn't hard to get. Medusa, Tzogvin, Barbed Trap, Accelerate, even an overland set grants it - Gryphons Ferocity.

For PvP, this ring's buffs make it competitive with 2bar builds where you can very easily acquire most of those buffs and more with 100% uptime, so the ring now covers that. It's not OP, and cannot be considered OP in any way, because it's now the same stats as a standard setup - frontbar and backbar set, monster set plus mythic.

The ring is now basically perfect and aside from Major Courage changed to Minor Courage I'd want, it is now balanced very well. ZOS did a great job this time around.

Okay you've convinced me. I think it would be good either way and if they did change it to Minor Force, I wouldn't be displeased but I think it's probably good as is if they just change Major into Minor Courage.

BlueRaven

To me this ring is turning into a theory crafter experiment, and seems less useful to people who just want one bar builds.

It feels convoluted now, is it good? Is it bad? As a non meta crafter I don’t know how to use this item. Do I just use it and use one bar? Do I have to change my build significantly? My armor? /shrug

YandereGirlfriend

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

Completely agree.

In one stroke this set obviates entire swathes of ultimates and current 5-piece set bonuses.

For gankers, glass canons, and organized raids this is easily the best item in the game.

acastanza_ESO

I do agree that I think they overshot with Major force. If the goal is to replace backbarred skills, it should be Minor Force for sure. That said, I do think this a generally fine state for this mythic. It's definitely a much happier middle ground than either of the previous iterations.

Rele+Tzogvin on a StamSorc is going to be a super strong 1bar build with this. I think it'll still be out-parseable by 2Bar builds, but it and similar builds for other classes are definitely going to be competitive at high-ish tiers. Especially since with constant Major Heroism ultimate uptime for Sorcs is going to be insane.

Vylaera

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

>implying crit ganks aren't already hitting the crit cap on Live

Bad critique, this isn't NEARLY as useful as you think it is

The_Lex

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

Completely agree.

In one stroke this set obviates entire swathes of ultimates and current 5-piece set bonuses.

For gankers, glass canons, and organized raids this is easily the best item in the game.

I second this assessment (or third-ed?)

As soon as I saw this change, my ganker toon started salivating.

In the end, it's clear that ZOS really doesn't know what they want from Oakensoul.

merpins

For everyone talking about PVP gankers: I mean, a good set comes out and gankers are going to use it. That's just how it goes in any game with open world PVP. This set is no different; they'll change up their loadout a bit to use this ring in place of some other crit bonus item they may be using, and one shot people with it. They can already one-shot lots of people without the ring. I don't think it changes anything, but it does make it easier for people to build a gank character I'd bet. You can do the same without the ring, the ring just makes it easier and since I don't play pvp anymore, I can't say whether that's a bad thing. I don't think it really is.

MentalxHammer

This is going to be absurdly overpowered on werewolf again. Werewolf metas are some of the most toxic and not fun environments to play in. Imperial City is already unpopulated, it’s just going to be ww gangs running around slaughtering any other players attempting to enjoy the game in there. There needs to be text on this item preventing it’s use in ww form.

bbpotts2ub17_ESO

Most the current iterations of gank builds use 2 bars, What is a gank build going to use on their front bar thats going to just make them that much better and not lose out on the things that makes them a gank build?
If a nightblade is using this ring, they compromise all of the imo what I consider to be what make gankblades and sorcs frustrating, their ability to get in do their burst and invis/blink away.

They have to sacrifice part of their "gank" in order to still have those escape situations. Unless theres a way to have everything you would need on just one bar in order to still be able to gank pvp players and not just pvmers and still get away from the fight

Vylaera

Crit ganks can get Major force on their own already AND they get the benefit of 2 bars.

You synergize balorgh with Saxhleel Champion for EASY burst, slot Caluurion's for free damage or go all in with a crit set like MS.

The problem is that ganks easily hit the crit cap without needing major force to do it (which is why you don't see the above setup anymore) This ring is a solid option for ganks but I seriously doubt it would be the new BiS for ganking. I should know - I gank.

bbpotts2ub17_ESO

MentalxHammer wrote: »

This is going to be absurdly overpowered on werewolf again. Werewolf metas are some of the most toxic and not fun environments to play in. Imperial City is already unpopulated, it’s just going to be ww gangs running around slaughtering any other players attempting to enjoy the game in there. There needs to be text on this item preventing it’s use in ww form.

In all of the pvp I have done, I have never come across a werewolf that did anything but just become tanky. Never once have I had an actual problem with a werewolf unless I am going into a BG on one of my PVE characters

prof_doom

Dracane wrote: »

I was one of them. Now I think it is too many powerful major buffs.

People might have a point about Major Force, though I'm still not completely convinced . I think the rest it is probably fine, though.

The_Lex

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Crit ganks can get Major force on their own already AND they get the benefit of 2 bars.

You synergize balorgh with Saxhleel Champion for EASY burst, slot Caluurion's for free damage or go all in with a crit set like MS.

The problem is that ganks easily hit the crit cap without needing major force to do it (which is why you don't see the above setup anymore) This ring is a solid option for ganks but I seriously doubt it would be the new BiS for ganking. I should know - I gank.

Why use Balorgh on a gank? Incap is super cheap. Seem like a waste. Most gankers I know are using proc sets (like, 3 of them). I use Selenes, Deadland's Assassin, and Caluurions. I wouldn't use Saxhleel or Balorgh at all.

Vylaera

The_Lex wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Crit ganks can get Major force on their own already AND they get the benefit of 2 bars.

You synergize balorgh with Saxhleel Champion for EASY burst, slot Caluurion's for free damage or go all in with a crit set like MS.

The problem is that ganks easily hit the crit cap without needing major force to do it (which is why you don't see the above setup anymore) This ring is a solid option for ganks but I seriously doubt it would be the new BiS for ganking. I should know - I gank.

Why use Balorgh on a gank? Incap is super cheap. Seem like a waste. Most gankers I know are using proc sets (like, 3 of them).

Because, unless you're melee, no other monster set is even worth it? Selene if you're melee would be good, but there's no other set that can grant you up to 500WD and 11000 Penetration.

Merforum

HERE we go, this is what I was afraid ZOS tweaking it enough [snip]. I love that ZOS has specifically acknowledged that it is NOT for high APM people just so there is no confusion who it is designed for. And even though I want to use in PVE, I was really looking forward to using it to even the playing field in PVP with the high APM folks. I am not saying I don't like the changes (although don't understand taking 3737 stats to zero), [snip] Hopefully ZOS stays true to the intention and keeps it good enough to be usable and ignores the complaints.

[edited for baiting]

The_Lex

BroughBreaux wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Crit ganks can get Major force on their own already AND they get the benefit of 2 bars.

You synergize balorgh with Saxhleel Champion for EASY burst, slot Caluurion's for free damage or go all in with a crit set like MS.

The problem is that ganks easily hit the crit cap without needing major force to do it (which is why you don't see the above setup anymore) This ring is a solid option for ganks but I seriously doubt it would be the new BiS for ganking. I should know - I gank.

Why use Balorgh on a gank? Incap is super cheap. Seem like a waste. Most gankers I know are using proc sets (like, 3 of them).

Because, unless you're melee, no other monster set is even worth it? Selene if you're melee would be good, but there's no other set that can grant you up to 500WD and 11000 Penetration.

Sorry. I edited my post above. Do you have experience with a ganker because it doesn't seem like it (and I don't mean that in a bad way at all)?

Vylaera

The_Lex wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Crit ganks can get Major force on their own already AND they get the benefit of 2 bars.

You synergize balorgh with Saxhleel Champion for EASY burst, slot Caluurion's for free damage or go all in with a crit set like MS.

The problem is that ganks easily hit the crit cap without needing major force to do it (which is why you don't see the above setup anymore) This ring is a solid option for ganks but I seriously doubt it would be the new BiS for ganking. I should know - I gank.

Why use Balorgh on a gank? Incap is super cheap. Seem like a waste. Most gankers I know are using proc sets (like, 3 of them).

Because, unless you're melee, no other monster set is even worth it? Selene if you're melee would be good, but there's no other set that can grant you up to 500WD and 11000 Penetration.

Sorry. I edited my post above. Do you have experience with a ganker because it doesn't seem like it (and I don't mean that in a bad way at all)?

Yes I've ganked for 2 years.

Obviously a dummy isn't a good indicator because it doesn't have buffs active but I can get 100k+ burst on one on an average gank.

Vylaera

The_Lex wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Crit ganks can get Major force on their own already AND they get the benefit of 2 bars.

You synergize balorgh with Saxhleel Champion for EASY burst, slot Caluurion's for free damage or go all in with a crit set like MS.

The problem is that ganks easily hit the crit cap without needing major force to do it (which is why you don't see the above setup anymore) This ring is a solid option for ganks but I seriously doubt it would be the new BiS for ganking. I should know - I gank.

Why use Balorgh on a gank? Incap is super cheap. Seem like a waste. Most gankers I know are using proc sets (like, 3 of them).

Because, unless you're melee, no other monster set is even worth it? Selene if you're melee would be good, but there's no other set that can grant you up to 500WD and 11000 Penetration.

Sorry. I edited my post above. Do you have experience with a ganker because it doesn't seem like it (and I don't mean that in a bad way at all)?

Oh I see the confusion. Reread the first post you replied to. I said specifically that setup I read off is not used anymore.