Oakensoul Change Take 2, Electric Boogaloo

fred4

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This is too much. It compensating for general buffs is fine, but Major Force and Major protection are generally things granted by ultimates. Please consider what happens when you give gank nightblades free major force from cloak. They do not need a 2nd bar to one shot people and this mythic will be paradise from them.

Major force should definitely be reconsidered at the very least.

>implying crit ganks aren't already hitting the crit cap on Live

Bad critique, this isn't NEARLY as useful as you think it is

I imply it, because they do not reach it.

Khajiit, The Shadow, Minor Force, Medium armor, CP and you're there. You can very easily reach the crit cap on Live and even go beyond it easily too. My gank is at 128% and I didn't even try.

This is not a good gank mythic because you don't have a backbar for healing. As long as you don't mind dying all the time then sure, it would get good damage. But you immediately lose your survivability because you no longer have a backbar heal.

A ganker has one job: kill one person as fast as possible and get away. Also because the mythic has major force on it, it allows you to drop shadow mundus, or crit cp, or kahjiit, in favor of something else to get the dmg you need. A ganker can kill you relatively easily on live currently with caluurions. Now that caluurion will hit even harder because of major berserk, and they can choose to get more weapon dmg/pen as well because they have an over abundance of crit dmg they can drop. Cloak, race against time, surprise attack, assassins will. That leaves one flex spot, which will most likely be left to be a heal of some sort or maybe shade to just teleport away

The mythic bonuses easily surpass a 5 piece in terms of dmg increases. If all your build cares about is dmg, it’s a no brainer to use this instead. Ofc if your build wants some survivability you won’t run it, but neither gankers or bombers should be worried about that

Yep. Matches the skill bar I have in mind. I would go a little bit further. Survivability from spamming Shrewd Offering while blocking with 1H+S is not bad. I like DW for Whirling Blades or a staff for ranged attacks, but I would seriously consider 1H+S for a rounded build. The armor sets outside of Caluurion are also up for grabs. You could run Stygian or another offensive set. You could run a defensive one. However, just Zoal is very effective at enabling you to get away. That only leaves 4 slots, but something like Willpower / Agility + 1x Trainee is a pretty stat-dense way to round out the build.

fred4

Lazuli wrote: »

For me major force is much better.
But Why remove the stats increase though
And can't we have both minor and major sustain buffs ?

You get the major ones from drinking a tri-pot.

Aoshy

I think the way it is now seens fair... In pvp we gonna see only when goes live
*Keeping the 3.7k health is too much?

remosito

from dev comment on Patch notes:

itself down as an accessibility option to players who don’t have access to sweaty buff uptimes, group compositions, and high APM....

I find it sad that the accessibility option for players that need it and want to partake in organized group content has now been dropped...

Including it would have been possible imo with the ring in v1 form with a bit lower values....

Patro

This new changes are good but they shouldn't have removed the 3737 health, magicka, and stamina bonus.

Dogvahkiin

Couldn’t test it by myself, but to be honest, the item looks WAY to powerful (from a PVE perspective).

Two(!) Major buffs from meta sets (Kinras, Olo) and 4 Major buffs from abilities!
Sorry, but in real content it’s really hard to keep up these uptimes to 100%.

With this item a 1-bar build can easily outdamage his 2-bar counterpart - maybe not on trial dummy, but in actual content.
The Job of the DD in content is to do dps whilst there are mechanics, movement (and lag…). This ring makes this job tremendous easier. Always. Everywhere. For good and for bad players.
With this item there will be simply no reason to play a complex 2bar-necro-dot-rota for example. In actual content this Item will often outdamage such a 2-bar build … whilst only managing half the abilities, uptime and maybe APM in “lazy mode”.
Its trivializing the game – and that’s not a good thing in a combat heavy, fast-paced game.

Second, this item favors heavily a few classes – those with strong self-healing and good class-spammables (e.g. Templer and Sorcs – already the most easy classes).

Third. Build diversity. Really? This item dumps it down even further – No room for frontbar Arena-Weapons so – Bahsei/Relequen + Tzogvin. Wow. New meta created -.-

The trivializing of the combat-related endgame will destroy the endgame community even further – nothing to work on, no skill required. Not fun.
Please don’t do this.


And I don’t get the “accessibility” argument. Why the heck should everyone participate in trifectas?!
I could understand this, if there were content you couldn’t participate at all - but with the existent difficulty selections (normal, vet, vet-HM) there are already options for everyone. All sets and gear is accessible on normal. There is a difficulty scaling for a reason.
It’s ok and healthy for the game that there is content (remember: only achievments!) with such a high difficulty only few can reach.

Sorry dudes, but I don’t like this item :-(
And I say this as an “endgame-Raider” in a very likeable progressive-trial-guild with lots of elderly people who struggle to dps – but worked really really hard to get better and we achieved a lot together. And yep, this will be trivialized too. Very unhealthy item in my opinion.


BTW: This “APM elitist” and “button smashers” talking is VERY passiv-aggressive and simply intolerant for a playstyle a lot of people enjoy. Please don’t discuss on this low level. Thx.

And English is not my native language. Pls be kind.

Tommy_The_Gun

Aoshy wrote: »

I think the way it is now seens fair... In pvp we gonna see only when goes live
*Keeping the 3.7k health is too much?

Well... idk. I mean is it fair to have pretty much all of the WW passives & buffs without WW form, with 100% uptime, but aside from having 1 bar not suffering from all of the flaws & drawbacks that WW has ?

^ Because that is what this mythic seems to be doing. Why would anyone sain on mind run WW in any type of content if they can just slot Oakensoul and basically be better in every possible way ? The only reason to use WW would be pretty much a cosmetic one I guess.

Personally I think it is not fair. I think that ZOS went too crazy with the amount off buffs you are getting. At this point Oakensoul would imho need another drawback (like increased skill cost or ulti cost) to make it more fair.

Aoshy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Aoshy wrote: »

I think the way it is now seens fair... In pvp we gonna see only when goes live
*Keeping the 3.7k health is too much?

Well... idk. I mean is it fair to have pretty much all of the WW passives & buffs without WW form, with 100% uptime, but aside from having 1 bar not suffering from all of the flaws & drawbacks that WW has ?

^ Because that is what this mythic seems to be doing. Why would anyone sain on mind run WW in any type of content if they can just slot Oakensoul and basically be better in every possible way ? The only reason to use WW would be pretty much a cosmetic one I guess.

Personally I think it is not fair. I think that ZOS went too crazy with the amount off buffs you are getting. At this point Oakensoul would imho need another drawback (like increased skill cost or ulti cost) to make it more fair.

Its a good point, maybe increase the ultimate cost could be a good drawback...

fred4

Aoshy wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Aoshy wrote: »

I think the way it is now seens fair... In pvp we gonna see only when goes live
*Keeping the 3.7k health is too much?

Well... idk. I mean is it fair to have pretty much all of the WW passives & buffs without WW form, with 100% uptime, but aside from having 1 bar not suffering from all of the flaws & drawbacks that WW has ?

^ Because that is what this mythic seems to be doing. Why would anyone sain on mind run WW in any type of content if they can just slot Oakensoul and basically be better in every possible way ? The only reason to use WW would be pretty much a cosmetic one I guess.

Personally I think it is not fair. I think that ZOS went too crazy with the amount off buffs you are getting. At this point Oakensoul would imho need another drawback (like increased skill cost or ulti cost) to make it more fair.

Its a good point, maybe increase the ultimate cost could be a good drawback...

Or drop the Major Heroism?

fred4

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Couldn’t test it by myself, but to be honest, the item looks WAY to powerful (from a PVE perspective).

Two(!) Major buffs from meta sets (Kinras, Olo) and 4 Major buffs from abilities!
Sorry, but in real content it’s really hard to keep up these uptimes to 100%.

With this item a 1-bar build can easily outdamage his 2-bar counterpart - maybe not on trial dummy, but in actual content.
The Job of the DD in content is to do dps whilst there are mechanics, movement (and lag…). This ring makes this job tremendous easier. Always. Everywhere. For good and for bad players.
With this item there will be simply no reason to play a complex 2bar-necro-dot-rota for example. In actual content this Item will often outdamage such a 2-bar build … whilst only managing half the abilities, uptime and maybe APM in “lazy mode”.
Its trivializing the game – and that’s not a good thing in a combat heavy, fast-paced game.

Second, this item favors heavily a few classes – those with strong self-healing and good class-spammables (e.g. Templer and Sorcs – already the most easy classes).

Third. Build diversity. Really? This item dumps it down even further – No room for frontbar Arena-Weapons so – Bahsei/Relequen + Tzogvin. Wow. New meta created -.-

The trivializing of the combat-related endgame will destroy the endgame community even further – nothing to work on, no skill required. Not fun.
Please don’t do this.


And I don’t get the “accessibility” argument. Why the heck should everyone participate in trifectas?!
I could understand this, if there were content you couldn’t participate at all - but with the existent difficulty selections (normal, vet, vet-HM) there are already options for everyone. All sets and gear is accessible on normal. There is a difficulty scaling for a reason.
It’s ok and healthy for the game that there is content (remember: only achievments!) with such a high difficulty only few can reach.

Sorry dudes, but I don’t like this item :-(
And I say this as an “endgame-Raider” in a very likeable progressive-trial-guild with lots of elderly people who struggle to dps – but worked really really hard to get better and we achieved a lot together. And yep, this will be trivialized too. Very unhealthy item in my opinion.


BTW: This “APM elitist” and “button smashers” talking is VERY passiv-aggressive and simply intolerant for a playstyle a lot of people enjoy. Please don’t discuss on this low level. Thx.

And English is not my native language. Pls be kind.

I'm not surprised to hear you make this argument. I feel more of an expert on PvP, the nightblade angle in particular, so I wasn't going to make it myself. I suppose the reality is, this is how it's going to be for 3 months. Pale Order already had realistic alternatives, such as Sithis. Not for all classes or all content, but Oakensoul will be the deathknell of it. Just wait long enough and the same thing will happen to Oakensoul.

I don't really believe this was conceived as an accessibillity solution, whatever ZOS have or have not said. I agree that no such solution was needed, given how easy the majority of the game is, but then again I seem to belong to a minority of players who don't give a crap about achievements or skins. There seem to be a fair few at the other end of the spectrum, for whom nothing but every achievement in the game is enough. That might be reasonable, if the game was purely casual, but it's not. It has a competitive aspect to PvP and vet trials. The difficulty of that content provides the incentive for players, like me, to keep playing long term and improving at combat. Some bemoan the lack of visible rewards, such as unique mounts. This is the other side of the coin. Do you want players being proud of their accomplishments and give them the ability to show that off, or do you want to give everyone access to every cosmetic and achievement in the literal sense? Oakensoul will devalue achievements.

I bet the way ZOS came up with this item went like this: "Hey, you know how the original mythic items were designed around a significant drawback. How about we make one that disables the second bar?" Nothing more. I wouldn't be surprised if discussions about accessibility only came afterwards.

Dracane

fred4 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

For everyone talking about PVP gankers: I mean, a good set comes out and gankers are going to use it. That's just how it goes in any game with open world PVP. This set is no different; they'll change up their loadout a bit to use this ring in place of some other crit bonus item they may be using, and one shot people with it. They can already one-shot lots of people without the ring. I don't think it changes anything, but it does make it easier for people to build a gank character I'd bet. You can do the same without the ring, the ring just makes it easier and since I don't play pvp anymore, I can't say whether that's a bad thing. I don't think it really is.

You and other(s) who have implied that most gankers are already at the crit cap are wrong. Some are. Others build for pen. Most use Caluurion. That set gives you crit%, not crit damage. It is not so easy to reach the cap as a single player. If you do, you're currently giving up something else. You may be a Khajiit. You may be wearing Archer's Mind. That will change. Now you can build for flat damage instead and that will stack with having +20% crit damage from Major Force. That's a buff you previously only had from ganking with the resto ult, e.g. during (ranged) heavy attack ganking. It's probably good the ring doesn't stack Major Force with that particular playstyle, but then again it just gives you the Major Force all the time. 100% uptime from cloak with no lead-up skill to cast or restriction on being in combat is a big deal. This also buffs bog-standard melee nightblades. The way those have been handled in previous patches is by disabling certain sets from activating outside of combat, e.g. Clever Alchemist. Activating your Infused back bar damage enchant is also a "no" for a ganker. Oakensoul will give you Major Courage all the time. It will be strong for gankers. The only question is whether it's over the top. I won't claim that I can answer that. What I will say is that, if I choose to continue playing, I shall be compelled to buy this expansion.

It's wrong, by the way, to say that nightblades can one shot everyone already. They can't. The balance has always revolved around playstyles that work in a sufficiently large range of situations and against moderately tanky targets to be attractive. One shot stamsorc and nightblade builds really take off in patches that are very high damage, such as last summer. In the current patch as well (or was it last one?) I found there were one shot flame heavy attack DKs and, reportedly, nightblades. Their prevalence seems to have abated, but I probably don't PvP enough right now to be confident about that. I think there must be a novelty factor to such builds, but they don't appear to be versatile enough to be satisfying long term. Either that, or the meta shifts towards tankier setups as a whole, which is also quite possible. Nonetheless, in any patch that is sufficiently high damage, or with something like Oakensoul, you can reach a tipping point where that changes. I, for one, have my single bar already worked out. Something like:

Concealed Weapon
Shrewd Offering
Whirlwind or Relentless Focus
Race Against Time
Shadowy Disguise
Soul Harvest or Incap

Race Against Time will be quite a must have, at least for me. I will be giving up Wild Hunt and I already use RAT, even with Wild Hunt. This is why Major Force, as opposed to Minor, will definitely be a buff for me. I will be stacking it with Minor Force. "Oh well", you say, "he's playing a Breton melee magblade, maybe he deserves a buff to that underdog class." That is where you would be wrong. I think magblade still has some disadvantages over stamblade in the damage department. The Minor Savagery doesn't apply. Not using Surprise Attack loses you the Sundered status. You tend to be a bit squishier, wearing more light armor. You lose damage, if you build for the high cloak sustain that makes magblade feel unique. I think there is still a gap to stamblade, however that gap has shrunk. Magblade ain't that bad and, as you can see from the above, it's the age of hybrids anyway. A nightblade is a nightblade these days.

I agree with everything, except that Nightblades can't one shot everyone. I will just leave the following video here, showing that a nightblade can equip any trash sets they want and still one shot. The class is just insane and for some reason greatly underestimated on the forums. It will be the next Dragonknight where it will get buffed even though it's insane as is.

Please skip to 4:00 if not already the case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eyBiasVs7k


If non-nightblades want to get any more depressed and ask "Why even play a different class anymore?" Please regard this simple mudfarm here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFC0UrOf0VQ

KlauthWarthog

ZoS seems to be doubling down on the p2w aspect of mythics.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Bokila

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

merpins

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

You're totally right, it's not a cheat. Sure, a gank build could use this, but they have to sacrifice a lot to make it work leaving them more vulnerable in PVP than they would be without it. And PVE dps builds could use this, but they're sacrificing damage for convenience. That could be great for some people, but the hardcore won't even touch this thing because it alone eats up 20-30% of your damage potential. You can make a great casual 80-100k dps build with this thing, and for those that can't use two-bar builds, that's fantastic because that's enough DPS to participate in end game content, so long as their group is slightly tailored due to some of the buffs being common trial buffs. By no means is it that good, but it's great for the purpose; making the game more accessible. I mean just consider the 3 leads that have been found of this item; they're all incredibly easy to do. So long as the remaining leads aren't difficult like "drops from the last boss of Sunspire on vet," it's a great accessibility item.

Faylestar

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Faylestar wrote: »

Might consider using it over RoPo for solo play in most content.

Still not going to compete with other mythics for 'real' content.

It'll just be a different playstyle giving up about 20% of your damage to make an easier build.

Which is why I say it wont compete with other mythics for that purpose.

It'll be great for making 1 bar builds to do stuff you can already do with 1 bar. You'll do 1bar stuff better. It might, on the lower end, be able to turn some classes 1 bars into okay enough trial builds, or jumping into normal pvp against people who also arent taking pvp seriously. It will never compete with stuff like kilt for the top end of PvE content. It will never compete with RoPO for the toughest solo content. It will struggle to keep up in most cases in organized PvP.

jaws343

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

You're totally right, it's not a cheat. Sure, a gank build could use this, but they have to sacrifice a lot to make it work leaving them more vulnerable in PVP than they would be without it. And PVE dps builds could use this, but they're sacrificing damage for convenience. That could be great for some people, but the hardcore won't even touch this thing because it alone eats up 20-30% of your damage potential. You can make a great casual 80-100k dps build with this thing, and for those that can't use two-bar builds, that's fantastic because that's enough DPS to participate in end game content, so long as their group is slightly tailored due to some of the buffs being common trial buffs. By no means is it that good, but it's great for the purpose; making the game more accessible. I mean just consider the 3 leads that have been found of this item; they're all incredibly easy to do. So long as the remaining leads aren't difficult like "drops from the last boss of Sunspire on vet," it's a great accessibility item.

I disagree that this would be sacrificing damage for convenience.

The ring takes care of a ton of bar slots worth of buffs. And for a solo build, that is huge, because you can drop a number of skills that contribute towards survival in PVE solo content, like arenas, and run this. And now this gives Major protection, so survival will go up even more.

For example, my current solo build hits around 50K dps, as it is forced to sacrifice for survival to solo many of the bosses in game.

Current bar set up (on a non pet sorc):

FB: Shield, Curse, Inner Light, Frags, Force Pulse, Meteor
BB: Shield, WoE, Orb, Boundless, Crit Surge, Destro

Well, with this ring, I can drop both Shields and boundless, and inner light. So that is 4 bar slots immediately freed up.
I can drop Force Pulse and just run Frag as a spammable.

So with this ring, I can run FB:
Curse, Frags, WoE, Orbs, Crit Surge (for the heal only)

And then I get a ton of buffs that I didn't have before (like major force, major berserk, heroism, protection and the minor recoveries). A simplier rotation with one bar. Still can use Maelstrom, would just need to drop one 5 piece set, but that can be swapped with a monster set like Magma, and a couple pieces of trainee for some added stats. And now I have zero worry of needing to bar swap, no worry of needing a shield with the major protection, no worry about needing to waste bar slots for passive buffs, no loss of damage. It's pretty ridiculously too strong.

Jman100582

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

I’m more so against a raise the floor mythic that disables a core function of the game. If I were a low apm player I would be insulted that this is the solution that zos took. It’s like saying “you’re not good enough to play with 10 abilities and keep your buffs up so we’ll do it for you” instead of “let’s make it easier to play with 10 abilities and current rotations”

There are two types of low apm players: the below average player who doesn’t know how to do inputs in the right cadence, and those with some sort of disability. This mythic only seems to address the player with disabilities. The bad players will still be bad, and this mythic will not promote any learning of the game. In order to do the hardest content for pve, you have to learn. That’s why it’s hard. You can’t circumvent that. If you can pick up the game and all it takes to do hard content is to get the right gear, then where is the enjoyment in learning? When I first started eso I was terrible. I died in pvp all the time. I died in pve and did bad dps all the time. Once I started running a good build, I started to die a bit less. Once I learned how to setup my cp, I started to do a bit more damage. Once I learned how to properly utilize abilities, I started to be pretty good. There is a learning curve each and every player must go through. Getting powerful FEELS good. Part of getting powerful is learning. And imo this mythic doesn’t really promote that, it promotes playing less

A lot of people think that animation canceling/weaving is button mashing. It isn’t. Optimally (meaning under no server lag) to animation cancel you press 2 inputs within a global cooldown (a one second window). Those inputs being a light attack, a barswap, or a roll dodge, followed by an ability. That’s it. Many times people actually animation cancel or weave TOO FAST, and they miss the start/end of a global cooldown. And it basically puts them off rhythm, and they lose dps. Ofc latency and lag can throw this off to where sometimes you have to press an ability 5 times in order for it to even go off, especially in pvp. But that’s it’s own separate issue entirely

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

You're totally right, it's not a cheat. Sure, a gank build could use this, but they have to sacrifice a lot to make it work leaving them more vulnerable in PVP than they would be without it. And PVE dps builds could use this, but they're sacrificing damage for convenience. That could be great for some people, but the hardcore won't even touch this thing because it alone eats up 20-30% of your damage potential. You can make a great casual 80-100k dps build with this thing, and for those that can't use two-bar builds, that's fantastic because that's enough DPS to participate in end game content, so long as their group is slightly tailored due to some of the buffs being common trial buffs. By no means is it that good, but it's great for the purpose; making the game more accessible. I mean just consider the 3 leads that have been found of this item; they're all incredibly easy to do. So long as the remaining leads aren't difficult like "drops from the last boss of Sunspire on vet," it's a great accessibility item.

I disagree that this would be sacrificing damage for convenience.

The ring takes care of a ton of bar slots worth of buffs. And for a solo build, that is huge, because you can drop a number of skills that contribute towards survival in PVE solo content, like arenas, and run this. And now this gives Major protection, so survival will go up even more.

For example, my current solo build hits around 50K dps, as it is forced to sacrifice for survival to solo many of the bosses in game.

Current bar set up (on a non pet sorc):

FB: Shield, Curse, Inner Light, Frags, Force Pulse, Meteor
BB: Shield, WoE, Orb, Boundless, Crit Surge, Destro

Well, with this ring, I can drop both Shields and boundless, and inner light. So that is 4 bar slots immediately freed up.
I can drop Force Pulse and just run Frag as a spammable.

So with this ring, I can run FB:
Curse, Frags, WoE, Orbs, Crit Surge (for the heal only)

And then I get a ton of buffs that I didn't have before (like major force, major berserk, heroism, protection and the minor recoveries). A simplier rotation with one bar. Still can use Maelstrom, would just need to drop one 5 piece set, but that can be swapped with a monster set like Magma, and a couple pieces of trainee for some added stats. And now I have zero worry of needing to bar swap, no worry of needing a shield with the major protection, no worry about needing to waste bar slots for passive buffs, no loss of damage. It's pretty ridiculously too strong.

Solo builds don't really effect game balance though, so that doesn't sound like a problem. You'd still have trouble soloing some vet dungeons, and you'd still not be able to solo trials. Someone soloing a dungeon or an arena doesn't do anything, and even if someone with this ring got a high score in a solo arena, which I doubt is possible, it still doesn't affect the game's balance. Without this ring, solo builds will still exist, still do what they were doing before, and still be stronger than when they had this ring DPS wise. There are people that get 500k+ dps in a vacuum against a trial dummy in a house. Them doing that isn't hurting anyone because it's not useful outside of that controlled environment. Solo-builds are similar, and are only "strong" in non-vet, normal pug random dailies when you get paired with low APM players.

merpins

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

Bokila

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

There is a learning curve each and every player must go through. Getting powerful FEELS good. Part of getting powerful is learning. And imo this mythic doesn’t really promote that, it promotes playing less

Not everyone is the same. Some people don t want to sink in hours upon hours trying to reach a certain dps to run harder content. Some are more casual and want an easier route to get to the end game content by making it to the bare minimum of the required dps and this is exactly what this ring is doing.
If theory crafting builds in order to reach the highest performance combat wise makes you feel good then so be it. You don t need to judge others because they want an easier way. It also does not affect your performance or experience in any way but like i said, some people want to be superior due to their knowledge regarding the game and they dislike it when casuals reach a close level to them without committing their life to it.

Jman100582

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

There are many mythics that could have been made that would’ve done a better job at achieving your goal. That still allow players to use their full characters strength

Someone above me in here already said that there is already difficulty scaling. Normal and vet trials yada yada. Is that not enough? The difference between perfected and non-perfected gear is so small at this point, maybe 2% dmg increase at the most. Vet dungeons gear wise have no differences in 5 piece sets. There are monster sets sure, but even then majority are not used. The only real incentive to do vet is for cosmetics. Skins and titles

Not all content should be accessible to the average, below average player, or beginning player. That’s why it’s called end game content. You do it when your character, your skill, and game knowledge are at the highest level possible. That is very, very, VERY basic game design. If there is no end game, a game will die. People will stop playing, as there is nothing to do. If I had to estimate, maybe 1-5% of all pve content (including overland) is actual “endgame” stuff. It’s not everywhere. It’s not for everyone. Should there be a mythic that bridges the gap between overland content difficulty and dungeon difficulty? Sure. But endgame is suppose to be hard, it’s suppose to be a learning curve. It’s an mmo, not Skyrim after all

merpins

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

Jman100582

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

I never said that I was against players with a disability getting a raise the floor mythic, I said I was against the design of the mythic literally removing a core aspect of the game. My suggestion for a mythic designed for ease of gameplay is to lower the “beat of the cadence” needed for light attack rotations. By making a mythic that promotes heavy attack rotations in some form.

There are players unlike you, that will die on the hill that everybody should be entitled to participate in endgame pve activities and succeed. That want a mythic to give them the same amount of dps as a sweat who has been playing for years and is at the endgame and has every skin and title, and only does pve to be on the scoreboard

The issue with making a mythic specifically for people with physical impairments is that it also buffs people who are low apm because they don’t want to learn how to play the game to reach endgame. Are there people with physical impairments that have been doing pve for years and have almost all the meta sets but still struggle to push 30k dps? Yes. But then there are casual players who hits 30k dps because their rotation is bad and they don’t have good pve gear. I don’t believe the latter player should be rewarded with a mythic because they refuse to make their rotation good, and any advice given to them is ignored or they label the adviser as elitist. Any mythic that buffs the impaired player also buffs the low apm player who does not deserve buffs, they already have the tools they need but refuse to use them or learn them. Which is why I am against this mythic, and understand that it is a struggle to balance the game around those that are properly in need of it. Which is why I said my argument isn’t about gatekeeping, well at least gatekeeping those that can’t “git gud” rather than those that REFUSE to “git gud”

Merforum

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

Exactly, HERE WE GO, I told you guys the gatekeepers were going to get apoplectic if this ring every became more useful.

NOTE if you are trying to claim to not be a gatekeeper then you might want to avoid statements like this. "Not all content should be accessible to the average, below average player, or beginning player. That’s why it’s called end game content."

Finedaible

Ok, if we are now claiming the Oakensoul mythic to be an accessibility option, then any accessibility options should at the very least be base game additions or changes. Gating accessibility behind a chapter mythic is straight up p2W or at the very least a pay-to-play option depending on how you view it. With Oakensoul ring you would not only need to purchase the High Isle Chapter but also purchase the Greymoor chapter for the Antiquities skill line.

merpins

Finedaible wrote: »

Ok, if we are now claiming the Oakensoul mythic to be an accessibility option, then any accessibility options should at the very least be base game additions or changes. Gating accessibility behind a chapter mythic is straight up p2W or at the very least a pay-to-play option depending on how you view it. With Oakensoul ring you would not only need to purchase the High Isle Chapter but also purchase the Greymoor chapter for the Antiquities skill line.

I agree, but the fact that it's going to be a thing at all is a good thing. sucks that you gotta buy a DLC to get it since it's for a specific group of people, but I doubt we'd be able to convince ZoS that it should be free.

Jman100582

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

Exactly, HERE WE GO, I told you guys the gatekeepers were going to get apoplectic if this ring every became more useful.

NOTE if you are trying to claim to not be a gatekeeper then you might want to avoid statements like this. "Not all content should be accessible to the average, below average player, or beginning player. That’s why it’s called end game content."

In all fairness I said I gatekeep people from content that they cant do because they don’t work for it. People with arthritis who at the very most pushing 30k vs the person who pushes 30k bc they don’t want to learn are two very different people. Do you think I want the person with arthritis to not be able to do endgame content, DESPITE putting on as much work as a normal endgame player? No. It’s not like I have a vendetta against people with physical impairments. But how many of the people who want this ring buffed are people with physical impairments to begin with?

Oh, and as for not all content is for everyone, that is a fact. It’s game design used in pretty much every mmo out there. Am I against people becoming end game pvers? No, I literally don’t care. Go do endgame pve when you’re ready. Do you have to dedicate yourself and slave on this game to be on the scoreboard? Yeah. But to actually do the content? No. Most people are endgame ready at only 1000cp now. With the old cp system (cp 810) if you weren’t at cap cp you weren’t getting into vet trial skin runs. Period. 1000cp in the current system is way less xp levels than the old 810 system. Getting the levels isn’t as hard. Will it take a couple of months? Yes. That’s how it is on every mmo. That’s just part of the genre. Getting non-perfected gear is super easy. Power creep has hit this game very very hard. People use to spend 4 hours in vdsa when 30k dps was a lot. The game is already casual-friendly enough. The game design itself however isn’t physically-impaired friendly. Which is where the actual problem lies. Casual players get casual content, vet players get vet content. It really is that easy

merpins

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

More Gatekeeping

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack weaving or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.

jaws343

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

More Gatekeeping

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.

I am genuinely curious here. How exactly is the bar swap mechanic any more physically repetive than any single video game mechanic?

Say I have a 10 key skill setup on one bar. I am still having to hit those 10 keys repetitively, especially for the spammable skill. 1 of those keys being a key that bar swaps doesn't really change that, still having to hit the same 10 keys repeatedly.

It isn't bar swapping or key loadouts that set the game apart from other MMOs in a way that would lead to physical issues, it is the lack of skill cooldowns.