Oakensoul Change Take 2, Electric Boogaloo

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

More Gatekeeping

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.

I am genuinely curious here. How exactly is the bar swap mechanic any more physically repetive than any single video game mechanic?

Say I have a 10 key skill setup on one bar. I am still having to hit those 10 keys repetitively, especially for the spammable skill. 1 of those keys being a key that bar swaps doesn't really change that, still having to hit the same 10 keys repeatedly.

It isn't bar swapping or key loadouts that set the game apart from other MMOs in a way that would lead to physical issues, it is the lack of skill cooldowns.

Definitely, lack of cooldowns doesn't help. People with this problem generally want to hit as few keys as possible. I have a close friend that has a motor function disability. He uses two bars, but not for a single build: basically, they're two one-bar builds on one character. One for clearing trash mobs and one for single target. He presses 4 keys total, one being his main spammable, one being a proc skill or extra damage skill, and then an ult and potion when they're up. The other 3 skills are passive if he can help it, or ones with really long durations if he can't. If he has room on the bar, he might not even use his backbar and just have his mobbing and single target on one bar, but he doesn't want to press more than 2 keys often due to pain. He light attack weaves fine.

I get it, but people with these disabilities generally aren't using more than a couple keys for their skills because they just cant. Ergonomic gaming keyboards help.

Jman100582

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

More Gatekeeping

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack weaving or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.

And I am saying that removing a core game mechanic is silly. That is an opinion. It is not gatekeeping. If I were to gatekeep people in your position I simply would’ve said “yeah you don’t deserve a mythic go play another game.” I have said multiple times by now that you do indeed deserve a mythic. Or an item, or a set. Whatever it is. I would much rather heavy attack rotations become viable then have zos dumb down the game for you. Is that gatekeeping? I WANT you to be able to interact with game mechanics like barswapping. And I WANT you to be able to interact to some extent with weaving and animation canceling. Can you light attack weave? Probably not. Which is why the next best thing is heavy attack weaving. Which is way behind. If a proper heavy attack-weave based rotation becomes viable, there are plenty of people who will sweat and do the number crunching to come up with the most optimal skill rotation. Which will involve barswapping less than a light attack weaving build. To dumb down basic mechanics as an attempt to solve your issues makes you access the game LESS in terms of how you play. Which is already the issue to begin with. All you’re doing is disagreeing with me as to how the issue should be solved

Merforum

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

Exactly, HERE WE GO, I told you guys the gatekeepers were going to get apoplectic if this ring every became more useful.

NOTE if you are trying to claim to not be a gatekeeper then you might want to avoid statements like this. "Not all content should be accessible to the average, below average player, or beginning player. That’s why it’s called end game content."

In all fairness I said I gatekeep people from content that they cant do because they don’t work for it. People with arthritis who at the very most pushing 30k vs the person who pushes 30k bc they don’t want to learn are two very different people. Do you think I want the person with arthritis to not be able to do endgame content, DESPITE putting on as much work as a normal endgame player? No. It’s not like I have a vendetta against people with physical impairments. But how many of the people who want this ring buffed are people with physical impairments to begin with?

Oh, and as for not all content is for everyone, that is a fact. It’s game design used in pretty much every mmo out there. Am I against people becoming end game pvers? No, I literally don’t care. Go do endgame pve when you’re ready. Do you have to dedicate yourself and slave on this game to be on the scoreboard? Yeah. But to actually do the content? No. Most people are endgame ready at only 1000cp now. With the old cp system (cp 810) if you weren’t at cap cp you weren’t getting into vet trial skin runs. Period. 1000cp in the current system is way less xp levels than the old 810 system. Getting the levels isn’t as hard. Will it take a couple of months? Yes. That’s how it is on every mmo. That’s just part of the genre. Getting non-perfected gear is super easy. Power creep has hit this game very very hard. People use to spend 4 hours in vdsa when 30k dps was a lot. The game is already casual-friendly enough. The game design itself however isn’t physically-impaired friendly. Which is where the actual problem lies. Casual players get casual content, vet players get vet content. It really is that easy

The real problem is that the game is too skewed towards physical skill, faster pace and not disabled friendly. I can do 'end game' content in all other games I played, new world, lost ark, etc. The power creep as you say is totally REAL, and due to 2 things mostly LA weaving and crit chance going to 100%. Eliminate LA weave and cap crit to 50% and the power creep is OVER.

But since ZOS hasn't done that yet, the next best option is raise the mid level a little bit. That is what I think this ring is trying to do. The dev note specifically says it is for lower APM folks but doesn't specify only disabled. Which I don't think there should be a distinction. People like me NEED this because I can do what normal people do for about an hour or 2 but the next day can't play at all and have pain. But if is also helps very low end or mid level casual players too I love that, and still can't see how anyone can object for any legit reason. If it was too powerful like the second week maybe but since then the changes have been very reasonable.

BTW I was in the Army and know the mentality of I had to eat $*@/dig ditches, so everyone after me has to do it too or they ain't worthy, but we AREN'T in the army, playing games is supposed to be FUN.

Jman100582

]

More Gatekeeping[/quote]

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack weaving or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.[/quote]

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

More Gatekeeping

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.

I am genuinely curious here. How exactly is the bar swap mechanic any more physically repetive than any single video game mechanic?

Say I have a 10 key skill setup on one bar. I am still having to hit those 10 keys repetitively, especially for the spammable skill. 1 of those keys being a key that bar swaps doesn't really change that, still having to hit the same 10 keys repeatedly.

It isn't bar swapping or key loadouts that set the game apart from other MMOs in a way that would lead to physical issues, it is the lack of skill cooldowns.

Definitely, lack of cooldowns doesn't help. People with this problem generally want to hit as few keys as possible. I have a close friend that has a motor function disability. He uses two bars, but not for a single build: basically, they're two one-bar builds on one character. One for clearing trash mobs and one for single target. He presses 4 keys total, one being his main spammable, one being a proc skill or extra damage skill, and then an ult and potion when they're up. The other 3 skills are passive if he can help it, or ones with really long durations if he can't. If he has room on the bar, he might not even use his backbar and just have his mobbing and single target on one bar, but he doesn't want to press more than 2 keys often due to pain. He light attack weaves fine.

I get it, but people with these disabilities generally aren't using more than a couple keys for their skills because they just cant. Ergonomic gaming keyboards help.

To say there are no cooldowns is a little disingenuous. Dot abilities can basically be considered to be “on cooldown” while the dot is in effect. There is no reason to spam dot abilities. There are more things that can be done besides just giving you a set/piece of gear and saying “here you go have fun” such as you know…balancing the game.

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

Exactly, HERE WE GO, I told you guys the gatekeepers were going to get apoplectic if this ring every became more useful.

NOTE if you are trying to claim to not be a gatekeeper then you might want to avoid statements like this. "Not all content should be accessible to the average, below average player, or beginning player. That’s why it’s called end game content."

In all fairness I said I gatekeep people from content that they cant do because they don’t work for it. People with arthritis who at the very most pushing 30k vs the person who pushes 30k bc they don’t want to learn are two very different people. Do you think I want the person with arthritis to not be able to do endgame content, DESPITE putting on as much work as a normal endgame player? No. It’s not like I have a vendetta against people with physical impairments. But how many of the people who want this ring buffed are people with physical impairments to begin with?

Oh, and as for not all content is for everyone, that is a fact. It’s game design used in pretty much every mmo out there. Am I against people becoming end game pvers? No, I literally don’t care. Go do endgame pve when you’re ready. Do you have to dedicate yourself and slave on this game to be on the scoreboard? Yeah. But to actually do the content? No. Most people are endgame ready at only 1000cp now. With the old cp system (cp 810) if you weren’t at cap cp you weren’t getting into vet trial skin runs. Period. 1000cp in the current system is way less xp levels than the old 810 system. Getting the levels isn’t as hard. Will it take a couple of months? Yes. That’s how it is on every mmo. That’s just part of the genre. Getting non-perfected gear is super easy. Power creep has hit this game very very hard. People use to spend 4 hours in vdsa when 30k dps was a lot. The game is already casual-friendly enough. The game design itself however isn’t physically-impaired friendly. Which is where the actual problem lies. Casual players get casual content, vet players get vet content. It really is that easy

The real problem is that the game is too skewed towards physical skill, faster pace and not disabled friendly. I can do 'end game' content in all other games I played, new world, lost ark, etc. The power creep as you say is totally REAL, and due to 2 things mostly LA weaving and crit chance going to 100%. Eliminate LA weave and cap crit to 50% and the power creep is OVER.

But since ZOS hasn't done that yet, the next best option is raise the mid level a little bit. That is what I think this ring is trying to do. The dev note specifically says it is for lower APM folks but doesn't specify only disabled. Which I don't think there should be a distinction. People like me NEED this because I can do what normal people do for about an hour or 2 but the next day can't play at all and have pain. But if is also helps very low end or mid level casual players too I love that, and still can't see how anyone can object for any legit reason. If it was too powerful like the second week maybe but since then the changes have been very reasonable.

BTW I was in the Army and know the mentality of I had to eat $*@/dig ditches, so everyone after me has to do it too or they ain't worthy, but we AREN'T in the army, playing games is supposed to be FUN.

Eliminating playstyles is a horrible idea. Period. I believe that some playstyles (within reason) should be more encouraged. Should ignoring something as basic as barswapping be encouraged? No. I don’t think so. Should there be alternatives to light attack weaving? Sure. That’s fair. That’s my suggestion anyway. LA weaving has not gotten any stronger, it has been here almost since the start. Crit being capped at 50% also will not help. If you run the same sets as someone else and you both have 50% crit but one of you does less dps, the problem is not the crit. The problem is variations in weaving/rotation variety. Hard caps are a very lazy solution to issues that can be solved more efficiently when time is put into them and other things are properly balanced out to achieve the same outcome. Giving high end dps less dps will not make you enjoy the game more

chessalavakia_ESO

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

As it's an MMO, people will be comparing themselves to other players fairly regularly and the content in the game as well as the players themselves will reflect that more so than in single player games.

For example, I rarely use potions in any of the Elder Scrolls Games.

If someone in Skyrim wants to consume a Skooma every 10 seconds it does nothing to me.

In ESO, we just saw the Oakensoul ring change to better align with how the people that consume potions on cool-down play the game.

You've got lots of people in ESO that fall somewhere between being elite double bar players and not being able to use two bars.

If Oakensoul is too powerful you'll end up moving a fair number of players down in the hierarchy which isn't going to necessarily feel great for them and in the long run might lead to combat difficulty adjustments.

Then again much of this discussion could be moot.

We still don't know where the last two leads come from which suggests it comes from something people don't do on the PTS much. That could mean anything from fishing in one of the earlier zones to the last boss of Lair of Maarselok. If it's something like the later the number of people using it could be rather low.

Merforum

Jman100582 wrote: »

]

Eliminating playstyles is a horrible idea. Period. I believe that some playstyles (within reason) should be more encouraged. Should ignoring something as basic as barswapping be encouraged? No. I don’t think so. Should there be alternatives to light attack weaving? Sure. That’s fair. That’s my suggestion anyway. LA weaving has not gotten any stronger, it has been here almost since the start. Crit being capped at 50% also will not help. If you run the same sets as someone else and you both have 50% crit but one of you does less dps, the problem is not the crit. The problem is variations in weaving/rotation variety. Hard caps are a very lazy solution to issues that can be solved more efficiently when time is put into them and other things are properly balanced out to achieve the same outcome. Giving high end dps less dps will not make you enjoy the game more

[snip] Raising mid toward ceiling is good but NOT a powercreep solution at all. Lots of people like to pretend the second option is to raise the floor but going from the floor to mid is easier than the dramatic gap between mid and ceiling. And Unfortunately ZOS has always been taking the second option of raising floor/mid which to date has ALSO ALWAYS raised the ceiling. OAKEN might be the only thing I've seen that can slightly raise mid without the ceiling or I think that is the plan. But at some point they'll have to look at lowering the ceiling I think.

BTW Hard caps is extremely EFFICIENT solution, and trying to balance 1000s of different sets/combinations is the OPPOSITE of Efficient. BTW anyone who denigrates others, gatekeeps content and worrys about how other people enjoy a game won't make it better for them, and if they derive enjoyment out of those things they have more to worry about than any game.

[Edited for Baiting]

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

[snip] Raising mid toward ceiling is good but NOT a powercreep solution at all. Lots of people like to pretend the second option is to raise the floor but going from the floor to mid is easier than the dramatic gap between mid and ceiling. And Unfortunately ZOS has always been taking the second option of raising floor/mid which to date has ALSO ALWAYS raised the ceiling. OAKEN might be the only thing I've seen that can slightly raise mid without the ceiling or I think that is the plan. But at some point they'll have to look at lowering the ceiling I think.

BTW Hard caps is extremely EFFICIENT solution, and trying to balance 1000s of different sets/combinations is the OPPOSITE of Efficient. BTW anyone who denigrates others, gatekeeps content and worrys about how other people enjoy a game won't make it better for them, and if they derive enjoyment out of those things they have more to worry about than any game.

[Edited for Baiting]

BTW just for a concrete example, when ZOS introduced the CP 2.0 they also gave everyone 1000 w/s dmg. Obviously raised everyone which was great for floor (3K to 4K good) but NOT NECESSARY for the ceiling (7K to 8K BAD). Implementing something like a 7K w/s dmg CAP would have solved the problem of raising the floor without raising the ceiling and contributing more to powercreep. This is efficient and easy.

Jman100582

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

More Gatekeeping

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack weaving or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

It is not about gatekeeping. Are you saying you shouldn’t have to learn how to play the game in order to do the most difficult content?

Also, more stuff about gatekeeping.

There are people that literally cannot do things you can do. It's not that they don't want to play the game properly, it's that they physically cannot. That's who this ring is for. It's not for you, and it's not for lazy new players that don't want to take time to learn mechanics. Sure, some new players might latch onto this ring and be mediocre forever, never learning mechanics in this game properly. Never once did I say people shouldn't have to learn how to play the game. I'm saying this is for people that can't.

Also, people not learning the game properly won't affect you any more than it already does, and this ring being there will help players that refuse to learn to do... ok ish... damage in pugs. I don't like it either, no one that's been playing a long time wants to be paired with a cp 900 dps that does 9k dps. But those players will still be doing what they were doing whether or not this ring is introduced, and gatekeeping it for players that actually need it because you learned mechanics and don't want people that didn't spend time learning them to do what you can do isn't helpful for the game. It's specifically reductive.

More Gatekeeping

Gatekeep more, man. Gatekeep more.

The bar swap mechanic is a unique feature to ESO. It makes the game unique and fresh in comparison to other mmos where you are either locked to a specific skill loadout, or you have your entire keyboard flooded with skill keys. But the design creates a repetitive motion that is different than other mmos. This is terrible for physical disabilities like arthritis, since complex repetitive motion causes severe pain. And the bar swap mechanic, at end game, is complex repetitive motion. Players who want to experience this game are being punished for having pain or worse, and you're saying they shouldn't be able to play the content. It doesn't have to do with light attack or heavy attack builds. It has to do with the bar swap mechanic specifically.

I love the bar swap mechanic. I also love light attack weaving. I also think that not everyone should be able to participate in end game content, but those that put in the time to learn the game should be able to. Some people can't perform despite knowing how to do it due to things outside their control. This ring helps them get there, isn't strong enough to be competitive at end game, but strong enough to allow people to participate.

I am genuinely curious here. How exactly is the bar swap mechanic any more physically repetive than any single video game mechanic?

Say I have a 10 key skill setup on one bar. I am still having to hit those 10 keys repetitively, especially for the spammable skill. 1 of those keys being a key that bar swaps doesn't really change that, still having to hit the same 10 keys repeatedly.

It isn't bar swapping or key loadouts that set the game apart from other MMOs in a way that would lead to physical issues, it is the lack of skill cooldowns.

Definitely, lack of cooldowns doesn't help. People with this problem generally want to hit as few keys as possible. I have a close friend that has a motor function disability. He uses two bars, but not for a single build: basically, they're two one-bar builds on one character. One for clearing trash mobs and one for single target. He presses 4 keys total, one being his main spammable, one being a proc skill or extra damage skill, and then an ult and potion when they're up. The other 3 skills are passive if he can help it, or ones with really long durations if he can't. If he has room on the bar, he might not even use his backbar and just have his mobbing and single target on one bar, but he doesn't want to press more than 2 keys often due to pain. He light attack weaves fine.

I get it, but people with these disabilities generally aren't using more than a couple keys for their skills because they just cant. Ergonomic gaming keyboards help.

To say there are no cooldowns is a little disingenuous. Dot abilities can basically be considered to be “on cooldown” while the dot is in effect. There is no reason to spam dot abilities. There are more things that can be done besides just giving you a set/piece of gear and saying “here you go have fun” such as you know…balancing the game.

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

The only people that disagree with the current changes are the super hardcore build crafters that see it as a cheat and not as a tool for less experienced players (Because they want to be the superior breed, who cares if some casuals want to experience the hard content, right?) and the people that run in Cyrodiil with 20k hp and no detection pots. Obviously you ll get ganked. If you got more than 20-25k health and you still get ganked it means there is a problem with your build, perhaps no resistence. People want to run around with 0 survivability on a non ganking class and kill people easly then complain they re getting ganked and ask for nerfs.. This ring will be nowhere near a 2 bar builds even in pvp in terms of utility. Yeah it might add a bit of dmg at the cost of mobility/escape/survivability but if you managed to prevent getting ganked prior to the addition of the ring you will do so after it will get added aswell.

Words, words, words. So many words about gatekeeping.

It's a ring designed for people that can't, not for people that won't or refuse to learn. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. It helps players that can't, and y'know what, it lets higher APM players make a lazy build if they don't feel like it on a certain day. It won't hurt the game for it to be a thing, and gatekeeping isn't something we should be doing.

Exactly, HERE WE GO, I told you guys the gatekeepers were going to get apoplectic if this ring every became more useful.

NOTE if you are trying to claim to not be a gatekeeper then you might want to avoid statements like this. "Not all content should be accessible to the average, below average player, or beginning player. That’s why it’s called end game content."

In all fairness I said I gatekeep people from content that they cant do because they don’t work for it. People with arthritis who at the very most pushing 30k vs the person who pushes 30k bc they don’t want to learn are two very different people. Do you think I want the person with arthritis to not be able to do endgame content, DESPITE putting on as much work as a normal endgame player? No. It’s not like I have a vendetta against people with physical impairments. But how many of the people who want this ring buffed are people with physical impairments to begin with?

Oh, and as for not all content is for everyone, that is a fact. It’s game design used in pretty much every mmo out there. Am I against people becoming end game pvers? No, I literally don’t care. Go do endgame pve when you’re ready. Do you have to dedicate yourself and slave on this game to be on the scoreboard? Yeah. But to actually do the content? No. Most people are endgame ready at only 1000cp now. With the old cp system (cp 810) if you weren’t at cap cp you weren’t getting into vet trial skin runs. Period. 1000cp in the current system is way less xp levels than the old 810 system. Getting the levels isn’t as hard. Will it take a couple of months? Yes. That’s how it is on every mmo. That’s just part of the genre. Getting non-perfected gear is super easy. Power creep has hit this game very very hard. People use to spend 4 hours in vdsa when 30k dps was a lot. The game is already casual-friendly enough. The game design itself however isn’t physically-impaired friendly. Which is where the actual problem lies. Casual players get casual content, vet players get vet content. It really is that easy

The real problem is that the game is too skewed towards physical skill, faster pace and not disabled friendly. I can do 'end game' content in all other games I played, new world, lost ark, etc. The power creep as you say is totally REAL, and due to 2 things mostly LA weaving and crit chance going to 100%. Eliminate LA weave and cap crit to 50% and the power creep is OVER.

But since ZOS hasn't done that yet, the next best option is raise the mid level a little bit. That is what I think this ring is trying to do. The dev note specifically says it is for lower APM folks but doesn't specify only disabled. Which I don't think there should be a distinction. People like me NEED this because I can do what normal people do for about an hour or 2 but the next day can't play at all and have pain. But if is also helps very low end or mid level casual players too I love that, and still can't see how anyone can object for any legit reason. If it was too powerful like the second week maybe but since then the changes have been very reasonable.

BTW I was in the Army and know the mentality of I had to eat $*@/dig ditches, so everyone after me has to do it too or they ain't worthy, but we AREN'T in the army, playing games is supposed to be FUN.

Eliminating playstyles is a horrible idea. Period. I believe that some playstyles (within reason) should be more encouraged. Should ignoring something as basic as barswapping be encouraged? No. I don’t think so. Should there be alternatives to light attack weaving? Sure. That’s fair. That’s my suggestion anyway. LA weaving has not gotten any stronger, it has been here almost since the start. Crit being capped at 50% also will not help. If you run the same sets as someone else and you both have 50% crit but one of you does less dps, the problem is not the crit. The problem is variations in weaving/rotation variety. Hard caps are a very lazy solution to issues that can be solved more efficiently when time is put into them and other things are properly balanced out to achieve the same outcome. Giving high end dps less dps will not make you enjoy the game more
[/quote]
[snip] Raising mid toward ceiling is good but NOT a powercreep solution at all. Lots of people like to pretend the second option is to raise the floor but going from the floor to mid is easier than the dramatic gap between mid and ceiling. And Unfortunately ZOS has always been taking the second option of raising floor/mid which to date has ALSO ALWAYS raised the ceiling. OAKEN might be the only thing I've seen that can slightly raise mid without the ceiling or I think that is the plan. But at some point they'll have to look at lowering the ceiling I think.

BTW Hard caps is extremely EFFICIENT solution, and trying to balance 1000s of different sets/combinations is the OPPOSITE of Efficient. BTW anyone who denigrates others, gatekeeps content and worrys about how other people enjoy a game won't make it better for them, and if they derive enjoyment out of those things they have more to worry about than any game.

[Edited for Baiting][/quote]


Imo power creep comes primarily from sets and from certain classes and group comps. Cp has been nerfed into the floor and that was really the only other way to get power for your character. Sets have been becoming increasingly stronger and stronger with every dlc (I wonder why) and certain classes are way overturned and that’s what people choose to run. Hard caps only address the build part. They don’t do anything for class/group comp balance. Hard caps are essentially sledgehammer nerfs and I’m pretty sure everybody on eso is sick and tired of those. And by putting hard caps on people you will only encourage people to run certain builds, killing diversity. It is lazy and not thought out, as power creep comes from multiple interactions of sets and players in of itself. You can’t address one part of that with a blanket nerf and expect things to balance out

[snip] People should have to work hard to accomplish hard content that is meant to be COMPETITIVE. If there wasn’t leaderboards and stuff like that I really would not care, I really wouldn’t. But the hi-end, vet endgame content was meant to be competitive. What business do people that just want to casually play on their weekends have in competitive content? Most really don’t care. I for one don’t, I’m very much a casual pver and have never pulled over 70k dps. I don’t expect to be competitive on my one bar stamplar even though I’ve played eso for 5 years at this point. I only need to go into vet dungeons once every couple of months for gear anyways. If I ran a proper pve rele/kilt/advancing build would I do more? Yeah. But I don’t, so I don’t expect or even think I deserve to be in the hi-end or even competitive

As for your example: adding base weapon spell dmg is what has made dks and plars so oppressive in pvp. It has had negative effects. And only now are both of these classes getting touched up on after who knows how long. Blanket nerfs and buffs have very rarely had their intended effect

[Edited Quote and Removed response to removed content]

Merforum

Jman100582 wrote: »

Imo power creep comes primarily from sets and from certain classes and group comps. Cp has been nerfed into the floor and that was really the only other way to get power for your character. Sets have been becoming increasingly stronger and stronger with every dlc (I wonder why) and certain classes are way overturned and that’s what people choose to run. Hard caps only address the build part. They don’t do anything for class/group comp balance. Hard caps are essentially sledgehammer nerfs and I’m pretty sure everybody on eso is sick and tired of those. And by putting hard caps on people you will only encourage people to run certain builds, killing diversity. It is lazy and not thought out, as power creep comes from multiple interactions of sets and players in of itself. You can’t address one part of that with a blanket nerf and expect things to balance out

[snip] People should have to work hard to accomplish hard content that is meant to be COMPETITIVE. If there wasn’t leaderboards and stuff like that I really would not care, I really wouldn’t. But the hi-end, vet endgame content was meant to be competitive. What business do people that just want to casually play on their weekends have in competitive content? Most really don’t care. I for one don’t, I’m very much a casual pver and have never pulled over 70k dps. I don’t expect to be competitive on my one bar stamplar even though I’ve played eso for 5 years at this point. I only need to go into vet dungeons once every couple of months for gear anyways. If I ran a proper pve rele/kilt/advancing build would I do more? Yeah. But I don’t, so I don’t expect or even think I deserve to be in the hi-end or even competitive

As for your example: adding base weapon spell dmg is what has made dks and plars so oppressive in pvp. It has had negative effects. And only now are both of these classes getting touched up on after who knows how long. Blanket nerfs and buffs have very rarely had their intended effect

Powercreep is HIGH end DPS that keeps going up and up. And allows people to blow through the toughest content in the game bypassing most of the mechanics or being unkillable killing machines in PVP. Procs sets are only a tiny part of that overall and I would say 2 things that contribute most was removing the % proc chance from most proc sets and SCALING which is OUT OF CONTROL. But the thing that makes scaling insane is that there is NO CAP ON the stat you scale off of, mainly w/s DMG. Which means in 2 seconds ZOS can FIX every one of those proc sets with a w/s dmg CAP, see how that works. Plus the fact that healing of all things scales off w/s dmg which is just dumb.

BTW I agree with you that blanket solutions are terrible, but CAPS are not a blanket nerf they are a laser targeted nerf at ONLY the outlier stats. If you want to see a BLANKET nerf it is called battle spirit where instead of using CAPS to control things they use BLANKET % decreases. Think about it, if you want to tone down the OP damage you don't take half the damage away from some who hits like a wet noodle, like a tank or healer, you ONLY REDUCE THE TOP END. THAT is called balance and targeted solution, NOT blanket.

Like I said ZOS could fix the game for years to come by simple putting LA on same GCD, CAP a few outlier stats crit chance, w/s dmg being the most abused. That would reduce powercreep dramatically, and have little to no effect on 90% of players, while allowing for so much more diversity. BTW in PVE I don't think anyone cares if some classes are better or worse at specific things that is the fun part. In PVP there are some insane outlier abilities like inviso/streak that should be toned down or removed but class differences aren't really contributing to powercreep like the other stuff mentioned.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Remove Force and Herosim and it'll be fine.

Jman100582

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Imo power creep comes primarily from sets and from certain classes and group comps. Cp has been nerfed into the floor and that was really the only other way to get power for your character. Sets have been becoming increasingly stronger and stronger with every dlc (I wonder why) and certain classes are way overturned and that’s what people choose to run. Hard caps only address the build part. They don’t do anything for class/group comp balance. Hard caps are essentially sledgehammer nerfs and I’m pretty sure everybody on eso is sick and tired of those. And by putting hard caps on people you will only encourage people to run certain builds, killing diversity. It is lazy and not thought out, as power creep comes from multiple interactions of sets and players in of itself. You can’t address one part of that with a blanket nerf and expect things to balance out

[snip] People should have to work hard to accomplish hard content that is meant to be COMPETITIVE. If there wasn’t leaderboards and stuff like that I really would not care, I really wouldn’t. But the hi-end, vet endgame content was meant to be competitive. What business do people that just want to casually play on their weekends have in competitive content? Most really don’t care. I for one don’t, I’m very much a casual pver and have never pulled over 70k dps. I don’t expect to be competitive on my one bar stamplar even though I’ve played eso for 5 years at this point. I only need to go into vet dungeons once every couple of months for gear anyways. If I ran a proper pve rele/kilt/advancing build would I do more? Yeah. But I don’t, so I don’t expect or even think I deserve to be in the hi-end or even competitive

As for your example: adding base weapon spell dmg is what has made dks and plars so oppressive in pvp. It has had negative effects. And only now are both of these classes getting touched up on after who knows how long. Blanket nerfs and buffs have very rarely had their intended effect

[Removed Response to Removed content]

Powercreep is HIGH end DPS that keeps going up and up. And allows people to blow through the toughest content in the game bypassing most of the mechanics or being unkillable killing machines in PVP. Procs sets are only a tiny part of that overall and I would say 2 things that contribute most was removing the % proc chance from most proc sets and SCALING which is OUT OF CONTROL. But the thing that makes scaling insane is that there is NO CAP ON the stat you scale off of, mainly w/s DMG. Which means in 2 seconds ZOS can FIX every one of those proc sets with a w/s dmg CAP, see how that works. Plus the fact that healing of all things scales off w/s dmg which is just dumb.

BTW I agree with you that blanket solutions are terrible, but CAPS are not a blanket nerf they are a laser targeted nerf at ONLY the outlier stats. If you want to see a BLANKET nerf it is called battle spirit where instead of using CAPS to control things they use BLANKET % decreases. Think about it, if you want to tone down the OP damage you don't take half the damage away from some who hits like a wet noodle, like a tank or healer, you ONLY REDUCE THE TOP END. THAT is called balance and targeted solution, NOT blanket.

Like I said ZOS could fix the game for years to come by simple putting LA on same GCD, CAP a few outlier stats crit chance, w/s dmg being the most abused. That would reduce powercreep dramatically, and have little to no effect on 90% of players, while allowing for so much more diversity. BTW in PVE I don't think anyone cares if some classes are better or worse at specific things that is the fun part. In PVP there are some insane outlier abilities like inviso/streak that should be toned down or removed but class differences aren't really contributing to powercreep like the other stuff mentioned.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Copious amounts of stat caps will simply result in cookie cutter builds with no variety. Should some scaling coefficients be looked at? Probably, but just putting a hard cap on every little thing will put a hole in build diversity and theorycraft. And if you put hard caps on offensive stats, it will greatly reduce the amount of dmg dealt in pvp because tank/mitigation sets have way more power than dmg sets. Examples include ironblood, pariah, trial by fire. No dmg set in the game gives enough dmg to offset just one of these sets being used. Tankiness in pvp is already an issue, which is why I don’t want dmg to go down. You can run a full damage build, and struggle to kill some players that wear just one defensive set and keep their heals up

LA on gcd will never happen. And it really shouldn’t, because otherwise it’ll require a player to press a button EXACTLY every one second to deal maximum dps. Which is inhuman to say the least. Light attack dmg should be adjusted yeah, it’s not even an ability but deals so much damage on logs. But to put in gcd will dramatically slow the pace of the game as well, and it would make it harder to proc stuff like enchants and sets

[snip]

This mythic going live is not about the immediate effect. I mostly pvp, and at the most gankers and ww’s will be using it and they are relatively easy to deal with. Maybe not so much after this mythic, but still. It won’t effect me as much as it will effect those that purely main pve. What I am worried about is that this mythic will be pointed at and people will want more and more and more like this, constantly raising the floor to the point where the floor and the ceiling are practically the same. Especially given how much of the community is casual players. What is the point of playing a competitive game if almost every ounce of skill is taken out? I would much rather have a set item that still at the very least required players to interact with the games core mechanics, such as barswapping and light attacking and heavy attacking

[Removed response to removed content]

Kory

Revert it back to how it was day one in the pts

FangOfTheTwoMoons

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Remove Force and Herosim and it'll be fine.

[Quoted Post Removed]

I never said that, don't blow it out of proportion. 100% uptime on Herosim and Force is a lot for PVP. This mythic is designed for accessibility and you're getting it with all the free buffs.

There's no reason for two of the most powerful buffs in the game to have 100% uptime for free in PvE, let alone PvP.

Merforum

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Remove Force and Herosim and it'll be fine.

[Quoted Post Removed]

I never said that, don't blow it out of proportion. 100% uptime on Herosim and Force is a lot for PVP. This mythic is designed for accessibility and you're getting it with all the free buffs.

There's no reason for two of the most powerful buffs in the game to have 100% uptime for free in PvE, let alone PvP.

LUCKILY anyone can use it but only get 1 bar.

divnyi

@FangOfTheTwoMoons on the contrary, the item provides enough incentives to use it in PvP is a good thing. Items should not cater only for a specific group of people. If you think it is good, then go do a build. Lots of PvPers are very sceptical towards it and aren't ready to drop backbar.

Ezorus

Everyone arguing about if its OP/should be in the game.. but I say untill they add a 3rd ring slot NO MYTHIC is worth the effort of getting and splitting up a monster/weapon set.. Most of them have a kiss/curse design but the biggest flaw is splitting up a 5-5-2-1 gear set up

divnyi

Ezorus wrote: »

NO MYTHIC is worth the effort of getting and splitting up a monster/weapon set..

That is uh, like, just your opinion man.

Dogvahkiin

Merforum wrote: »

LUCKILY anyone can use it but only get 1 bar.

Yep, and this is exactly the problem!
Anyone can and WILL use it (maybe outside the most hardcore and "professional" High-End-Raiding-Guilds). It will change the meta - and trivialize the combat. For everyone.

This item is basically a "cheat" in a competitive online game.
Endgame is sth you need to work for, as a long term goal. If it's to easy the game becomes boring&stale very quick and there won't be long term players anymore (PVE perspective).

Endgame in multiplayer-games is like sports. It's competitive. And it's not "gatekeeping" or "elitists" if there are skill requirements for participants in a competitive league. like in sports.

I think a lot of "endgame" players will leave ESO for good if this is the direction of the game. I will.

divnyi

@Dogvahkiin most PvP players agree that PvP side of the game has very steep learning curve, and this thing alone makes PvP community pretty small in size.

Nothing wrong with adding the item that gives a chance for new players BUT has a considerable downside for high-end groups (no backbar heal staff = no cross heals).

Dogvahkiin

divnyi wrote: »

@Dogvahkiin most PvP players agree that PvP side of the game has very steep learning curve, and this thing alone makes PvP community pretty small in size.

Nothing wrong with adding the item that gives a chance for new players BUT has a considerable downside for high-end groups (no backbar heal staff = no cross heals).

You're right - from a PVP perspective.

Nevertheless it impacts PVE too.

divnyi

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@Dogvahkiin most PvP players agree that PvP side of the game has very steep learning curve, and this thing alone makes PvP community pretty small in size.

Nothing wrong with adding the item that gives a chance for new players BUT has a considerable downside for high-end groups (no backbar heal staff = no cross heals).

You're right - from a PVP perspective.

Nevertheless it impacts PVE too.

How much is the impact? Any solid parses with it in this PTS cycle?

Dogvahkiin

divnyi wrote: »

How much is the impact? Any solid parses with it in this PTS cycle?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=C34JYacAPAo

It shouldn't be possible to achieve 100k with this item. That's basically "raising the floor to the ceiling".

Dracane

divnyi wrote: »

@Dogvahkiin most PvP players agree that PvP side of the game has very steep learning curve, and this thing alone makes PvP community pretty small in size.

Nothing wrong with adding the item that gives a chance for new players BUT has a considerable downside for high-end groups (no backbar heal staff = no cross heals).

This is the first good argument given here.

Lalothen

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=C34JYacAPAo

It shouldn't be possible to achieve 100k with this item. That's basically "raising the floor to the ceiling".

Did you watch the entire video? Dooma compared three one-bar builds - one with oakensoul and two without - and the Oakensoul + trial gear build was 5k ahead of the Trial gear + monster set build, which was 5k ahead of the non-trial gear + monster set build. That's not a large difference - and importantly, standard two-bar builds still have around 20%+ higher DPS potential than this. He also offered a balanced perspective on it, drawing on what Skinnycheeks has said about it.

Personally I'm weary of this "X shouldn't be able to hit 100k DPS" gatekeeping ideology and how it gets applied every time a vocal player comes across something they personally decide they don't like "because reasons". It's wholly arbitrary - especially when the top bar for DPS is well beyond 100k now - and this scenario definitely isn't "raising the floor to the ceiling" at all. Raising the floor to the ceiling would be an Oakensoul build matching DPS output of a META two-bar DPS build, which it doesn't by a significant margin. It was close during week 1 of PTS, but that's well in the rear view mirror now.

The mythic is in a MUCH better place for lifting up all the people who need that gameplay simplification and confidence boost to engage with the game's more challenging content, whilst offering a lot less to skilled players already comfortable doing more DPS or filling more complex support roles with two-bar builds, and operating in organised trial groups where the vast majority of buffs are already covered anyway.

As Dooma said in that video you linked, perhaps it will trivialise certain content more and that's something ZOS should consider - but that definitely doesn't mean to say they need to make any changes to Oakensoul as it is now, more that they need to think about how they could make that content more challenging - at least for players who want that challenge. Trivialisation of content isn't so much a single item issue as it is a general power creep issue, meriting an overarching solution that accounts for the fact that different players want to engage with content with varying degrees of challenge.

Perhaps it's time to revisit "veteran overland" and "nightmare dungeon/trial difficulty" concepts again, but that's a wholly different topic.

tl;dr - Oakensoul is in a good spot now, and players need to stop gatekeeping & calling for nerfs using arbitrary - and outmoded - DPS benchmarks.

divnyi

Lalothen wrote: »

Perhaps it's time to revisit "veteran overland" and "nightmare dungeon/trial difficulty" concepts again, but that's a wholly different topic.

Implement Nightmare Maelstrom Arena, make it drop perfected weapons, downgrade all perfected versions to normal ones and normal ones to crippled ones

Captain_OP

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

LUCKILY anyone can use it but only get 1 bar.

Yep, and this is exactly the problem!
Anyone can and WILL use it (maybe outside the most hardcore and "professional" High-End-Raiding-Guilds). It will change the meta - and trivialize the combat. For everyone.

This item is basically a "cheat" in a competitive online game.
Endgame is sth you need to work for, as a long term goal. If it's to easy the game becomes boring&stale very quick and there won't be long term players anymore (PVE perspective).

Endgame in multiplayer-games is like sports. It's competitive. And it's not "gatekeeping" or "elitists" if there are skill requirements for participants in a competitive league. like in sports.

I think a lot of "endgame" players will leave ESO for good if this is the direction of the game. I will.

Well you write it as all boss mechanics does not existing and every boss is a beat stick. If this item is cheating then a ww build was always a easy cheat mode with a timer.
Gaming is about fun and this item will increase the range of possible boss fights a player may engage and have fun.

in a competitive league. like in sports

Ok and were is this Problem? Everybody prove that one-bar builds can not compete with two-bar builds. If a endgame player dislike that a bunch of one-bar player does his favorit bossfight in 12 min, while his great compatative group takes 10 min, well then it is his problem. Honestly why should he care?

remosito

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

How much is the impact? Any solid parses with it in this PTS cycle?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=C34JYacAPAo

It shouldn't be possible to achieve 100k with this item. That's basically "raising the floor to the ceiling".

2018 or was it 2019 called and wants it's ceiling back..


ceiling is a fair bit higher than 100k these days...

Dogvahkiin

Captain_OP wrote: »

Well you write it as all boss mechanics does not existing and every boss is a beat stick.

It's basically the only job for a DD (and the hardest part) to keep up an effective, complex, high-dps rotation WHILE there are mechanics.

Captain_OP wrote: »

Gaming is about fun and this item will increase the range of possible boss fights a player may engage and have fun.

There exists a difficulty selection for content (normal, vet, vet-hm). Use this.

Captain_OP wrote: »

Ok and were is this Problem? Everybody prove that one-bar builds can not compete with two-bar builds. If you dislike that a bunch of one-bar player does your favorit bossfight in 12 min, while your great compatative group takes 10 min, well then it is your problem. [snip]

Success should be earned. That's the point behind competitive gameplay.
Slotting a single item to achieve these goals is basically cheating.

Captain_OP wrote: »

If you dislike that a bunch of one-bar player does your favorit bossfight in 12 min, while your great compatative group takes 10 min, well then it is your problem. [snip]

[snip]
[edited for back-and-forth & to remove quote]

Captain_OP

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

It's basically the only job for a DD (and the hardest part) to keep up an effective, complex, high-dps rotation WHILE there are mechanics.

Since there is no implication of APM in the equation for a effective, complex, high-dps rotation, everyone is free to do every content the difficulty he desire, with one or two bars. Thanks.

Success should be earned. That's the point behind competitive gameplay.
Slotting a single item to achieve these goals is basically cheating.

I haven’t seen a passive on a item that grands you archivments from boss fights. So there is no cheating and what is considered cheating is getting defined by the developers.

[snip]

[snip]
[edited for back-and-forth & to remove quote]

bbpotts2ub17_ESO

Hitting buttons faster isn't some sort of achievement, It is a dexterity test, if content has to be locked away from people because you can hit buttons more efficiently than the next player than that does not seem earning of an achievement.

I like the changes, Something ive learned during the vet trials I have done, is that people struggle with seeing the mechanics in trials, and if simplifying the DPS rotation even through means like this mythic. Hopefully that gets people to start paying attention to the mechanics instead of having the worry so much about keeping up this complex two bar rotation simply because that is expected. I enjoy the fact that this raises the midfloor a bit and can only this encourages more players who are not comfortable with 2 bar builds and their rotations to try veteran content, If more people try veteran content because of it GOOD why shouldn't they get the chance to feel comfortable with the veteran level content. Veteran Content should be more of a mechanics check than a silly dps check anyway.