So Where Are The mDK Nerfs?

Dracane

taugrim wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

Why mag DK have to be nerfed ? I did not see Sorcs and NB nerfs yet.

Invis work - streak work ? So no nerf for mDK.

Why would Sorc and NB need to be nerfed?

What in your opinion makes them imbalanced — I mean explained in more than 4 words. I'm legit curious.

@taugrim
I actually just dropped in to see if this had turned into a Nerf Sorc thread yet, and it did not disappoint. I know you are curious, but you wont get answers that make any sense, I promise. Likely something about how streak and cloak can one shot you. Its nonsense.

DK is pretty darn OP at the moment, hard to deny it. I hate calling for nerfs to probably my favorite class, but its easy mode in both PVP and PVE right now.

Yea I asked because I don't see Sorcs or NB as needing nerfs based on live.

Nerfs to Streak and Cloak are simply not merited.

Streak is the Sorc's class-defining ability. It's not broken. It's just an excellent tool.

Cloak is definitely not broken. There are plenty of counters to stealth that any build can slot. Anyone who thinks it's broken should play a NB at CP160. It is by far the highest-finesse class, which is why the majority of people are underwhelming with it and the most-skilled can do amazing things with it.

Yes, NBs can gank. But those gank builds over struggle mightily in any kind of protracted brawling or larger fights.

I see it the same way. As much as I hate cloak, especially when paired with half a brain and teleport shade and as annoying as Streak can be even for me sometimes, I don't think they can be nerfed further. We don't need to water down class identity more. Only gank sets need to be looked at so that the gank meta becomes less fierce.

I think the game's balance is the best it has been in years apart from proc sets and some over/underperforming classes.

jecks33

axi wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

pvpers won again 👍

To be honest the issue was also present in PvE but it wasn't combustion it was charged trait.

the difference is that in PVE endgame nobody cares if a class performs better than another, they pick the best one and go on, nobody comes to the forum whining and crying hard because DK or Necro are too strong

M0ntie

Please ZOS don't nerf MagDK's back to reluctant Z'ens Buff *** only for PVE and trials AGAIN - they only just got out of there after a few years. Nearly all the compaints are only from PVP.
And re the extremely selective post from ESO Logs - check all the other trials except the top bit of vRG and MagDKs are evenly represented. Or in some cases such as vAS, very under represented.

divnyi

Dracane wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Once every 3s may have been a slight over-nerf.

Although anyone saying its over a 100% nerf can't do maths and should not be listened to.

I also found this funny, because it's an about 80% nerf, not 600%. It's 6 times less, true, but still 20% of what it was. 80% doesn't sound as dramatic as 600%, does it? DK Community, love them.

This is literally the matter of what's in dividend and what's in divisor.

M0ntie

what? [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

the1andonlyskwex

axi wrote: »

Combustion atm is overperforming in both PvE and PvP but the fault for that is mainly on the side of overbuffed charged trait. Instead of tuning down or tweaking that trait they decided to overnerf unique DK passive.

I'm not a fan of the way DK was nerfed, but if a trait (like charged) is only overperforming on one class (like DK), that indicates a problem with the class, not the trait.

Bodycounter

Dracane wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Once every 3s may have been a slight over-nerf.

Although anyone saying its over a 100% nerf can't do maths and should not be listened to.

I also found this funny, because it's an about 80% nerf, not 600%. It's 6 times less, true, but still 20% of what it was. 80% doesn't sound as dramatic as 600%, does it? DK Community, love them.

People who are bad at maths should not badmouth other players. The internal timer got increased from 0.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds which is an increase of 500% or 6x the old value. Saying "it's an about 80% nerf" would translate to 0.9 seconds which is plain wrong because you didn't put the statement into context. The amount of procs will be reduced by 83,33% would be a valid statement which is different from a "around 80% nerf".

divnyi

Bodycounter wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Once every 3s may have been a slight over-nerf.

Although anyone saying its over a 100% nerf can't do maths and should not be listened to.

I also found this funny, because it's an about 80% nerf, not 600%. It's 6 times less, true, but still 20% of what it was. 80% doesn't sound as dramatic as 600%, does it? DK Community, love them.

People who are bad at maths should not badmouth other players. The internal timer got increased from 0.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds which is an increase of 500% or 6x the old value. Saying "it's an about 80% nerf" would translate to 0.9 seconds which is plain wrong. Saying "it's 6 times less" is plain wrong too.

1 - 0.5/3 = ~83%

In reality, it was almost never once 0.5s. What would proc it at half-second rate? Some lucky delayed FOO?
You would be lucky to proc it once a sec. In fact, once 1-2s is more likely. Now it's once 1-2s+3s.

1.5/4.5 = 33% of previous values. Implying charged trait.

If you didn't use charged, you wouldn't even notice.

KoIIegoIas

divnyi wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Once every 3s may have been a slight over-nerf.

Although anyone saying its over a 100% nerf can't do maths and should not be listened to.

I also found this funny, because it's an about 80% nerf, not 600%. It's 6 times less, true, but still 20% of what it was. 80% doesn't sound as dramatic as 600%, does it? DK Community, love them.

People who are bad at maths should not badmouth other players. The internal timer got increased from 0.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds which is an increase of 500% or 6x the old value. Saying "it's an about 80% nerf" would translate to 0.9 seconds which is plain wrong. Saying "it's 6 times less" is plain wrong too.

1 - 0.5/3 = ~83%

In reality, it was almost never once 0.5s. What would proc it at half-second rate? Some lucky delayed FOO?
You would be lucky to proc it once a sec. In fact, once 1-2s is more likely. Now it's once 1-2s+3s.

1.5/4.5 = 33% of previous values. Implying charged trait.

If you didn't use charged, you wouldn't even notice.

If DK didnt use charged. or flamestuff for higher procchance. But the majority does use charge atleast on offhand or Flamestaff(i am talking about PvP), wich is totally enough when you count how many flame ability initial hits, dots DK's have and if they wanna make sure to proc statuseffect, they just use flameenchant on top of it. Also burning embers procs cumbostion by 100%. *** 1k costreduction on burning embers. Perfect to spam it on multiple targets to run around like a raidboss with more heal than brain.

In case it would proc after 1-2 seconds like you say, its still 1-2K Mana return, wich is by far far the most broken sustain passive. Other classes dont come even close to that. And i dont even wanna start talk about ultimate ressource gain spam from the army of daedric trickery backbar major heroism DK's.
Proc combustion every 3 seconds and you still have (correct me if im wrong with the math's) like 666 mana regen. Even while block or in mistform kek.

Fact is that in PvP is no other class that can do such insane Dmg Pressure without worring about sustain at all

Its still more regen you get from one passive than other classes get even after the combustion nerf. Not even Necro with pet passive + Cost Pet Costreduction from dying pet or Nightblade with Refreshing Shadows, Templar with runefocus would reach that numbers that DK does with this combustion post nerf(Idk about warden). Probably Sorc with all regen/return passives combined would match post nerf combustion.
You can get more sustain with classes like nightblade with their 15% regen passive, but to get to that point, you need to gear and enchant a lot regen. But who does that in times of rapid regen heal meta, where people just aim for 6-8k weapondmg builds to kill something

And for all the DK's which distract on the templar. Templar, gets Bubble nerfed. Templar need some heavy attacks to sustain, while DK's can just keep up the damage pressure, while they benefit from that stupid autopilot sustain combustion ***. Templar pressure can easy be interrupted by outrange him, because jabs slow down so much, while DK can just cast skill -> sprint -> skill and so on or just leap.

And its not the fault of charged trait. Dont let charged get nerfs because its just overperforming on a single class. Nerf the damn class.

Bodycounter

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

Also burning embers procs cumbostion by 100%. *** 1k costreduction on burning embers. Perfect to spam it on multiple targets to run around like a raidboss with more heal than brain.

The most simple solution would have been to reduce the effectiveness of Burning Embers when applied to more than one enemy. ZoS could've deleted the guaranteed status proc and increased the cost, reduce the healing and/or reduce the damage when multi-dotting. It's stupid to be able to spam Burning Embers to regenerate magicka, heal and deal damage at the same time. At least this would have been my approach to nerf the skill.

Bodycounter

divnyi wrote: »

1 - 0.5/3 = ~83%

You have to put this value into context though. Combustion will only proc 16.67% as often as before the nerf which is equivalent to increasing the internal timer by 500%. Without concrete context "Combustion got nerfed by 83,33%" is wrong because Combustion itself got nerfed by 500%. It's the possible proc rate that got reduced by 83,33%.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

taugrim wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

Why mag DK have to be nerfed ? I did not see Sorcs and NB nerfs yet.

Invis work - streak work ? So no nerf for mDK.

Why would Sorc and NB need to be nerfed?

What in your opinion makes them imbalanced — I mean explained in more than 4 words. I'm legit curious.

@taugrim
I actually just dropped in to see if this had turned into a Nerf Sorc thread yet, and it did not disappoint. I know you are curious, but you wont get answers that make any sense, I promise. Likely something about how streak and cloak can one shot you. Its nonsense.

DK is pretty darn OP at the moment, hard to deny it. I hate calling for nerfs to probably my favorite class, but its easy mode in both PVP and PVE right now.

Yea I asked because I don't see Sorcs or NB as needing nerfs based on live.

Nerfs to Streak and Cloak are simply not merited.

Streak is the Sorc's class-defining ability. It's not broken. It's just an excellent tool.

Cloak is definitely not broken. There are plenty of counters to stealth that any build can slot. Anyone who thinks it's broken should play a NB at CP160. It is by far the highest-finesse class, which is why the majority of people are underwhelming with it and the most-skilled can do amazing things with it.

Yes, NBs can gank. But those gank builds over struggle mightily in any kind of protracted brawling or larger fights.

@taugrim

1,000 percent agree. I think sorc is in a good spot. They arent top tier, but they have always been one of the easier classes to play and they are a great way to get your feet wet in both end game PVP and PVE. Nothing wrong with a class that fits that niche, and they have been in that spot since about the time VHOF was released. Nerf Sorc is the biggest sign of a L2P issue you will find on these forums. They excel at nuking pugs in PVP (dont be a pug), and their rotation is pretty darn straight forward in PVE with pets doing a lot of the heavy lifting.

NBs honestly need a buff. They have always been the finesse class, which I really like. You need to really pick and choose your targets in PVP and its usually a high risk reward playstyle. In PVE, it is has always been one of the least forgiving and more difficult DPS rotations, but the skill and effort was rewarded. I play a lot of NB, especially in PVE, but now, I struggle to justify it. On a dummy, I am like 10-15k behind my sorc, 15K+ behind my DK, and 20k behind my Necro, and NB is the hardest rotation.

Ease of rotation probably goes DK>Necro> Sorc>NB. DK is trivial, Necro takes good bar swapping, sorc requires dealing with a channeled spammable which I loath (why i dont even mess with templar, even though they are a cakewalk), NB needs for everything to be perfectly dynamic, without a missed LA or your damage falls off a cliff.

Aldoss

M0ntie wrote: »

Please ZOS don't nerf MagDK's back to reluctant Z'ens Buff *** only for PVE and trials AGAIN - they only just got out of there after a few years. Nearly all the compaints are only from PVP.
And re the extremely selective post from ESO Logs - check all the other trials except the top bit of vRG and MagDKs are evenly represented. Or in some cases such as vAS, very under represented.

vAS is not a prog trial. There's no need to scrutinize class comps. You can can find vAS hardmode groups in Craglorn chat. You cannot find that for vRG HM, hence why it's relevant that 80%+ of all dps in those trials are magdks right now.

The sample is selective, but not for dumb reasons. It's selective because there's only 1 trial currently that consistently has the top PvE groups progging every week.

It's not just PvP. This is a general game imbalance that needs to be corrected.

svthomas

The combustion nerf is excessive and _will_ create unintended consequences for DK's in PVE content. It's unfortunate that ZOS cannot figure out PVP because the continuous whiplash for PVE players is getting old.

axi

jecks33 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

pvpers won again 👍

To be honest the issue was also present in PvE but it wasn't combustion it was charged trait.

the difference is that in PVE endgame nobody cares if a class performs better than another, they pick the best one and go on, nobody comes to the forum whining and crying hard because DK or Necro are too strong

Actually You can find plenty of complaints made throughout the years when it comes to top dogs in PvE.

kieso

Combustion nerf should be reduced a bit

taugrim

svthomas wrote: »

The combustion nerf is excessive and _will_ create unintended consequences for DK's in PVE content. It's unfortunate that ZOS cannot figure out PVP because the continuous whiplash for PVE players is getting old.

Bad assumption is bad.

If you look at the data from high-end progression guilds — see spoiler below with DPS charts — MagDK is dominating the charts in PVE DPS.

It's objectively clear that MagDK is over-performing in both PVE and PVP.

Aldoss wrote: »

@Galiferno here are the top dps numbers for all vRG HM prog bosses currently:

Oaxiltso


Bahsei


Xalvakka


I'll happily admit that this isn't full proof, but vRG is the newest trial and one that all the elite PvE prog groups are running on a consistent and serious basis. There's a reason why they're comprised so heavily of magdks.

Lailaamell

BlossomDead wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

I think we need a 'where are the templar nerfs' thread as well.

I'd argue they were less potent than DK, runner up for most op for sure, but not as strong, the Bubble nerf is a pretty large blow to their staying power.

Maybe with the DK changes they'll take DKs space, but they've always had easy telegraphs and way less sustain.

Step through or away from their jab spam, prepare for their 6s burst window. DK had nowhere near the same counterplay.

Funnily enough I die far less to DKs than to templars, because it's just literally impossible to get them off your back while they jab you to death. Throw in a heal or two for that extra speed and there's no way for you to go.

But templar is diffrent they are balanced they are meant to be special and over top strong

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Once every 3s may have been a slight over-nerf.

Although anyone saying its over a 100% nerf can't do maths and should not be listened to.

I also found this funny, because it's an about 80% nerf, not 600%. It's 6 times less, true, but still 20% of what it was. 80% doesn't sound as dramatic as 600%, does it? DK Community, love them.

People who are bad at maths should not badmouth other players. The internal timer got increased from 0.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds which is an increase of 500% or 6x the old value. Saying "it's an about 80% nerf" would translate to 0.9 seconds which is plain wrong. Saying "it's 6 times less" is plain wrong too.

1 - 0.5/3 = ~83%

In reality, it was almost never once 0.5s. What would proc it at half-second rate? Some lucky delayed FOO?
You would be lucky to proc it once a sec. In fact, once 1-2s is more likely. Now it's once 1-2s+3s.

1.5/4.5 = 33% of previous values. Implying charged trait.

If you didn't use charged, you wouldn't even notice.

If DK didnt use charged. or flamestuff for higher procchance. But the majority does use charge atleast on offhand or Flamestaff(i am talking about PvP), wich is totally enough when you count how many flame ability initial hits, dots DK's have and if they wanna make sure to proc statuseffect, they just use flameenchant on top of it. Also burning embers procs cumbostion by 100%. *** 1k costreduction on burning embers. Perfect to spam it on multiple targets to run around like a raidboss with more heal than brain.

In case it would proc after 1-2 seconds like you say, its still 1-2K Mana return, wich is by far far the most broken sustain passive. Other classes dont come even close to that. And i dont even wanna start talk about ultimate ressource gain spam from the army of daedric trickery backbar major heroism DK's.
Proc combustion every 3 seconds and you still have (correct me if im wrong with the math's) like 666 mana regen. Even while block or in mistform kek.

Fact is that in PvP is no other class that can do such insane Dmg Pressure without worring about sustain at all

Its still more regen you get from one passive than other classes get even after the combustion nerf. Not even Necro with pet passive + Cost Pet Costreduction from dying pet or Nightblade with Refreshing Shadows, Templar with runefocus would reach that numbers that DK does with this combustion post nerf(Idk about warden). Probably Sorc with all regen/return passives combined would match post nerf combustion.
You can get more sustain with classes like nightblade with their 15% regen passive, but to get to that point, you need to gear and enchant a lot regen. But who does that in times of rapid regen heal meta, where people just aim for 6-8k weapondmg builds to kill something

And for all the DK's which distract on the templar. Templar, gets Bubble nerfed. Templar need some heavy attacks to sustain, while DK's can just keep up the damage pressure, while they benefit from that stupid autopilot sustain combustion ***. Templar pressure can easy be interrupted by outrange him, because jabs slow down so much, while DK can just cast skill -> sprint -> skill and so on or just leap.

And its not the fault of charged trait. Dont let charged get nerfs because its just overperforming on a single class. Nerf the damn class.

They need to nerf combustion to 500 mag stam every 5 to 10 seconds

Bodycounter

taugrim wrote: »

Bad assumption is bad.

If you look at the data from high-end progression guilds — see spoiler below with DPS charts — MagDK is dominating the charts in PVE DPS.

It's objectively clear that MagDK is over-performing in both PVE and PVP.

Nobody is saying that Dragonknights aren't strong and that they don't deserve to be nerfed. What we are saying is that the nerf to Combustion could be too excessive. I have seen some PTS parses from other players and they struggled with the sustain a lot and had to fill in several stamina morphs. An internal timer of 2.0 seconds would probably be optimal from a PvE perspective.

I can' tell for PvP but there are plenty other options for nerfs there.

divnyi

@Bodycounter did PvE run full-charged on frontbar?

M0ntie

Aldoss wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Please ZOS don't nerf MagDK's back to reluctant Z'ens Buff *** only for PVE and trials AGAIN - they only just got out of there after a few years. Nearly all the compaints are only from PVP.
And re the extremely selective post from ESO Logs - check all the other trials except the top bit of vRG and MagDKs are evenly represented. Or in some cases such as vAS, very under represented.

vAS is not a prog trial. There's no need to scrutinize class comps. You can can find vAS hardmode groups in Craglorn chat. You cannot find that for vRG HM, hence why it's relevant that 80%+ of all dps in those trials are magdks right now.

The sample is selective, but not for dumb reasons. It's selective because there's only 1 trial currently that consistently has the top PvE groups progging every week.

It's not just PvP. This is a general game imbalance that needs to be corrected.

I was looking at the leaderboard in ESO Logs so these would be the top IR groups. Good luck finding an IR group in Craglorn. vRGhm is not the only trial in the game so it is selective to only look at that.

Hotdog_23

Funny how everyone is so focused that the combustion passive is why DK is so good. DK’s basically received a 4% nerf to their damage with the changes to engulfing flames. Considering most of mDK’s damage is fire. All the change to combustion did was is take some fun out of the class.

The healing change from burning embers should be returned to its original value of 75% and not the 50% it was changed to. 100% was to much just change it back to the 75% before the buff to 100%.

Stay safe

Stx

When they buffed combustion and charged at the same time, it was pretty obvious that it was way too good for Mdk... I made a thread about it but no one believed me.

Oh well 😗

axi

taugrim wrote: »

svthomas wrote: »

The combustion nerf is excessive and _will_ create unintended consequences for DK's in PVE content. It's unfortunate that ZOS cannot figure out PVP because the continuous whiplash for PVE players is getting old.

Bad assumption is bad.

If you look at the data from high-end progression guilds — see spoiler below with DPS charts — MagDK is dominating the charts in PVE DPS.

It's objectively clear that MagDK is over-performing in both PVE and PVP.

Aldoss wrote: »

@Galiferno here are the top dps numbers for all vRG HM prog bosses currently:

Oaxiltso


Bahsei


Xalvakka


I'll happily admit that this isn't full proof, but vRG is the newest trial and one that all the elite PvE prog groups are running on a consistent and serious basis. There's a reason why they're comprised so heavily of magdks.

I agree that bad assumption is bad [Snip]. You assume that mag DK is overperforming in PvE because it dominates PvE raid leaderboards but the thing is every setup that is even 1% stronger than others will dominate leaderboards because this is how high game end group optimisation works. There will be never a balance where each class achieves excatly the same level of strenght in PvE and even if the fluctuation between highest and lowest effective DD will be less than 2% leaderboards will still be dominated by one particular setup. That doesn't instantly mean this one particular setup is overperforming. Top dogs may change but the trend that one particular setup will be dominating ESO logs will continue.

[Edited for minor bait]

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Sugram22

Vizir wrote: »

Oh no! Anyway, I’ll just run noxious breath for the approx 10% more damage done curtesy of major breach.

reason why i deleted my magica DK if i play it i want to be fire mage not poison and second hard to survive bad self heals stam DK orc a lot better, if i were to ma a orc magika DK this would help a little but i would prefer high or dark elf cause of damage but the fiery breath issue would remain that its broken, no direct hit like noxious breath and weaker, as a magika DK i refuse to run with with anything but fire skills, + self heal issue specially when u play from range mostly, so had to delete my magica DK but OFC i didn't have heal companion with me neither but still bad if i need to relay on companion for heal, self heal nerf was bad but Burning Embers should be ranged skill anyway if ur magic build

also fiery breath should have same range as elemental wall

this nerfs effect ppl who like their play stile and builds and refuse to change them like going to retro staff on second bar what is waste of time when u want to deal damage second to replace fiery breath for noxious breath

xDeusEJRx

Sugram22 wrote: »

Vizir wrote: »

Oh no! Anyway, I’ll just run noxious breath for the approx 10% more damage done curtesy of major breach.

reason why i deleted my magica DK if i play it i want to be fire mage not poison and second hard to survive bad self heals stam DK orc a lot better, if i were to ma a orc magika DK this would help a little but i would prefer high or dark elf cause of damage but the fiery breath issue would remain that its broken, no direct hit like noxious breath and weaker, as a magika DK i refuse to run with with anything but fire skills, + self heal issue specially when u play from range mostly, so had to delete my magica DK but OFC i didn't have heal companion with me neither but still bad if i need to relay on companion for heal, self heal nerf was bad but Burning Embers should be ranged skill anyway if ur magic build

also fiery breath should have same range as elemental wall

this nerfs effect ppl who like their play stile and builds and refuse to change them like going to retro staff on second bar what is waste of time when u want to deal damage second to replace fiery breath for noxious breath

Not sure why you necro'd this old thread. But if you don't want to run resto back bar, you could always just run alternative back bars. I've ran dual wield front bar and inferno staff back bar and found easy success. Instead of having regen back bar you slot elemental drain or elemental susceptibility for major breach access and it works pretty well for a mag DK.

Not everyone is shoehorned into running resto back bar. DK heals are strong enough to not need resto on the back bar

Sugram22

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Sugram22 wrote: »

Vizir wrote: »

Oh no! Anyway, I’ll just run noxious breath for the approx 10% more damage done curtesy of major breach.

reason why i deleted my magica DK if i play it i want to be fire mage not poison and second hard to survive bad self heals stam DK orc a lot better, if i were to ma a orc magika DK this would help a little but i would prefer high or dark elf cause of damage but the fiery breath issue would remain that its broken, no direct hit like noxious breath and weaker, as a magika DK i refuse to run with with anything but fire skills, + self heal issue specially when u play from range mostly, so had to delete my magica DK but OFC i didn't have heal companion with me neither but still bad if i need to relay on companion for heal, self heal nerf was bad but Burning Embers should be ranged skill anyway if ur magic build

also fiery breath should have same range as elemental wall

this nerfs effect ppl who like their play stile and builds and refuse to change them like going to retro staff on second bar what is waste of time when u want to deal damage second to replace fiery breath for noxious breath

Not sure why you necro'd this old thread. But if you don't want to run resto back bar, you could always just run alternative back bars. I've ran dual wield front bar and inferno staff back bar and found easy success. Instead of having regen back bar you slot elemental drain or elemental susceptibility for major breach access and it works pretty well for a mag DK.

Not everyone is shoehorned into running resto back bar. DK heals are strong enough to not need resto on the back bar

i run destro staff on both bars


DK heals (embers) got nerfed, some1 in hes video said he had to go back to the old ways of back bar restro cause of the nerf

also sorcs heal much more convenient same with warden though wardens is less convenient

embers has a problem to, when u hit it doesn't heal u right away and u can die with the delay, also its short range i like to have bit distance between myself and enemy, and stone fist shouldn't be heal it is bad for my sustain to use it DK should have normal heal buff and not Dragon blood that alone isn't good neither, instead of so many different skills with heals there should be 1good heal buff cause using different heals trains MP, like change dragon blood like better version of vigor or sorcs critical surge or heal from hit kind of like Orc's passive