So Where Are The mDK Nerfs?

MashmalloMan

I'll never understand why they gave Molten Whip +225 damage AND +100% damage at 3 stacks. Pick a lane.

It seems 0 thought was given towards this and I'm not sure why it hasn't been adjusted down after so long.

There was a time where the classes had clear defined characteristics for stat investment. If I wanted more of a crit damage focus, NB. More weapon/spell damage Sorc or Templar.

Now DK is in the same ballpark with this singular skill, basically giving DKs their own +6% damage passive that scales better. With a multiplier of 40% (major/minor/medium) it gives 315. For Sorc or Templars 6% passive to match, they'd need 5,250 damage (before multipliers). That's just ridiculous, I'm not saying it's not possible to match that value, but why does DK get this free bonus on 1 skill when the skill already does up to 100% more damage as an effect.

I mean, even if the damage bonus was removed, that 100%, the 5% fire damage passive and the fact that it's flame damage gives it another boost against vampires of 5-20%. Literally no one else in the game has a spammable this bursty.

Lets say a 10k spammable tooltip which is pretty easily achievable with around 6k damage or so. Thats 20k x 1.05 x 1.1 = 23,100.

I've been hit by this skill as a non vampire in BG's for 10-13k and your HP just gets deleted.

DK just seems to have everything right now. There was a point in time where talks about DK problems were that they had hard sustain (no return skill, no sustain passives) and no execute.

Well ZOS listened and now they have the best sustain in the game due to Charged + DK Passives and they don't even bother with an execute anymore because they can deal execute level damage to you at full health, an execute would just be a waste of a skill slot.

Not a single class has as much element synergy as DK, almost everything used, everything important, does flame or poison damage which happens to be stronger against entire sub classes of the game, Vampire and WW. Whats funny is those damage types are already the strongest damage wise, but DK buffs their status effects further AND another 5% on top. I like the class identity, but it's just a bunch of crap stacked on top of each other.

The opportunity DK's have is so high, they really don't need to invest a lot into sustain like other classes do because Charged + Passives handles it completely for them. So not only do they have higher damage from skills/passives, they get higher stat investment into anything they pick, whether it be armor, sustain or damage.

A NB for instance usually goes for all damage or else they can't burst anyone down and they're not best equipped for sustained pressure encounters. It's about getting in then getting out, thats how the class is primarily designed. The problem with this is they are squishy as all hell and have crappy sustain, they don't fight for extended periods to counter that problem.

So they've made a sacrifice, what sacrifice does a DK make? They can sustain, turtle up, burst, everything but speed... but oh wait, they can reduce everyone's speed by -30% for just using their offensive kit passively and they can get +30% speed from Chains. There is no drawback whatsoever, melee is only really a problem in ESO if you're in an open field. It's easy to stay on target or line of sight.

the1andonlyskwex

axi wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Saying that DK is OP because it deals top dmg in BG is kinda silly. DK was always easy to deal top dmg in BG due to the fact how easy it is to stack dmg with DoTs. I guess stamsorc also should be nerfed because of all the memes this setup can do when it comes to getting high numbers in BG through DoTs and streaking around.

Stam sorc doesn't also have the best defense in the game - it can get high numbers (same goes for bow builds with acid spray, magdens with ice wall etc btw) in a BG for sure, but only if it can survive.

A mDK can always survive and get high numbers since it also features the strongest defense in the game (coag, embers, radiating, burst heals with ultimates, when CC'ing etc), no matter the team you get.


And it's not only a BG problem by the way, mDK is the top dog in dueling scene as well as it features the best single target pressure & best self heals - this means that if you're being chased by them in open world (or IC, or battlegrounds)... survival becomes difficult, if not impossible - and counter bursting or outplaying them isn't an option due to the amount of defense they have.

A stamina sorcerer or a magden or a templar you can counter a lot more easily... as they have to be a bit more wary about what you can do to them as well (and their pressure/burst is more easily countered by outranging or outhealing).


A well known mDK duelist on PC EU (winner of multiple dueling tournaments) actually dueled people while naked on his magicka DK... and beat a lot of players considered good at their respective classes. That's how overtuned the class is right now.

Debatable based on what enemies You get. In certain situations mobility and evasivness is the best defense and stamsorc is the king of these but like I said it's situational.

Coag is more or less on par with other burst heals. It have lower scaling formula than BoL and it only gets higher after reaching certain HP treshold but You need to take under consideration it's pure selfheal. Embers heal is ok at best, really nothing as strong as many people try to make it. It only gets strong when there are guards around since then You bypass battle spirit. In real fight scenario You will rarely see burning embers heal to achieve some significant percentage of Your overal healing. Decent heal at best nothing OP. Radiating regen is accesible for everyone it's not dk exclusive ability. I can agree about heal through ultimates. That passive is strong and very often allows to turn the tables in the fight especially that both leap and corrosive are ultimates that support it even further.and that You get all resources back.

Sorc or magden I can agree, templar idk their defense atm seems to be the most effective in the game when You combine easiness uf usage vs effectiveness when You also need to keep in mind it's not just self defense. That being said yes You can atleast stalemate against most of setups while playing on mDK.

DK was always very high in dueling hierarchy. It's no suprise that experienced duelist was able to kill some other players without armor because the core of the issue with mDK atm is overbuiffed weapon trait. Charged was buffed way too much and currently provides dk with additional sustain and dmg at the same time. Like no joke here charged itself provides currently more dmg and sustain to DK than lot of the 5 piece armor sets. Buffing it from 220% to 480% was a horrible decision.
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DK also benefits from flame being the strongest damage type (mostly because of gear that buffs flame damage and vampire passives/penalties, but also because of the burning status effect being so strong).

Yes but these benefits were always in the game sometimes even stronger than right now (for example there was a time vampire was taking up to 50% more flame dmg) and always part of DK class indentity. Newly designed status effects and buffed charged trait weren't.

Flame damage is (and has always been) the problem, it's just historically been masked by DK's horrible sustain (now fixed), and the fact that anyone can use an inferno staff.

Arthtur

Well as a DK player i wont have problems with some nerfs but dont touch our sustain. Not long ago DK had the worst sustain in the game and im not intrested in going back to that times.

kojou

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

axi wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Saying that DK is OP because it deals top dmg in BG is kinda silly. DK was always easy to deal top dmg in BG due to the fact how easy it is to stack dmg with DoTs. I guess stamsorc also should be nerfed because of all the memes this setup can do when it comes to getting high numbers in BG through DoTs and streaking around.

Stam sorc doesn't also have the best defense in the game - it can get high numbers (same goes for bow builds with acid spray, magdens with ice wall etc btw) in a BG for sure, but only if it can survive.

A mDK can always survive and get high numbers since it also features the strongest defense in the game (coag, embers, radiating, burst heals with ultimates, when CC'ing etc), no matter the team you get.


And it's not only a BG problem by the way, mDK is the top dog in dueling scene as well as it features the best single target pressure & best self heals - this means that if you're being chased by them in open world (or IC, or battlegrounds)... survival becomes difficult, if not impossible - and counter bursting or outplaying them isn't an option due to the amount of defense they have.

A stamina sorcerer or a magden or a templar you can counter a lot more easily... as they have to be a bit more wary about what you can do to them as well (and their pressure/burst is more easily countered by outranging or outhealing).


A well known mDK duelist on PC EU (winner of multiple dueling tournaments) actually dueled people while naked on his magicka DK... and beat a lot of players considered good at their respective classes. That's how overtuned the class is right now.

Debatable based on what enemies You get. In certain situations mobility and evasivness is the best defense and stamsorc is the king of these but like I said it's situational.

Coag is more or less on par with other burst heals. It have lower scaling formula than BoL and it only gets higher after reaching certain HP treshold but You need to take under consideration it's pure selfheal. Embers heal is ok at best, really nothing as strong as many people try to make it. It only gets strong when there are guards around since then You bypass battle spirit. In real fight scenario You will rarely see burning embers heal to achieve some significant percentage of Your overal healing. Decent heal at best nothing OP. Radiating regen is accesible for everyone it's not dk exclusive ability. I can agree about heal through ultimates. That passive is strong and very often allows to turn the tables in the fight especially that both leap and corrosive are ultimates that support it even further.and that You get all resources back.

Sorc or magden I can agree, templar idk their defense atm seems to be the most effective in the game when You combine easiness uf usage vs effectiveness when You also need to keep in mind it's not just self defense. That being said yes You can atleast stalemate against most of setups while playing on mDK.

DK was always very high in dueling hierarchy. It's no suprise that experienced duelist was able to kill some other players without armor because the core of the issue with mDK atm is overbuiffed weapon trait. Charged was buffed way too much and currently provides dk with additional sustain and dmg at the same time. Like no joke here charged itself provides currently more dmg and sustain to DK than lot of the 5 piece armor sets. Buffing it from 220% to 480% was a horrible decision.
.

DK also benefits from flame being the strongest damage type (mostly because of gear that buffs flame damage and vampire passives/penalties, but also because of the burning status effect being so strong).

Yes but these benefits were always in the game sometimes even stronger than right now (for example there was a time vampire was taking up to 50% more flame dmg) and always part of DK class indentity. Newly designed status effects and buffed charged trait weren't.

Flame damage is (and has always been) the problem, it's just historically been masked by DK's horrible sustain (now fixed), and the fact that anyone can use an inferno staff.

I would like to see all classes have the ability to choose which one your classes does with a CP passive. Then they can focus on equalizing them. Also get rid of "magic" damage already. That one has never made sense.

As for the OP, Yeah DK's need to be toned down a little. I keep thinking they will extend the cool down for Combustion, but they never do...

Silversmith

mDK gets 33% more damage with Take Flight. (=

olsborg

@axi I would actually rate magdk in the tier above god tier, the cheat tier. gg

axi

olsborg wrote: »

@axi I would actually rate magdk in the tier above god tier, the cheat tier. gg

Still not even close to 2014 mag dk.

Urzigurumash

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Not a single class has as much element synergy as DK, almost everything used, everything important, does flame or poison damage which happens to be stronger against entire sub classes of the game, Vampire and WW. Whats funny is those damage types are already the strongest damage wise, but DK buffs their status effects further AND another 5% on top. I like the class identity, but it's just a bunch of crap stacked on top of each other.

What you say about Poison here is completely wrong and seems to indicate you've never even tried to fight a WW with a StamDK. We have two Poison DoT skills, one Poison DoT Ult. That's it. Far from "everything important".

This is the reason there is such a massive power gap between MagDK and StamDK right now.

StamDK gets very little out of the buffed Combustion and World in Ruin. Very little. MagDK gets a tremendous amount of power from these.

Not that StamDK is in a bad spot - rather the opposite, we're on par with StamDen and StamCro which is something nobody ever once said since those two classes debuted.

Look to StamDK for an appropriate, balanced application of this idea of elemental affinity.

maxjapank

EP have often played DKs. But it was so uncanny last night during Oceanic time on NA PC. Group of 8-10 EP were attacking Sej and every single one of them were MagDKs.

MashmalloMan

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Not a single class has as much element synergy as DK, almost everything used, everything important, does flame or poison damage which happens to be stronger against entire sub classes of the game, Vampire and WW. Whats funny is those damage types are already the strongest damage wise, but DK buffs their status effects further AND another 5% on top. I like the class identity, but it's just a bunch of crap stacked on top of each other.

What you say about Poison here is completely wrong and seems to indicate you've never even tried to fight a WW with a StamDK. We have two Poison DoT skills, one Poison DoT Ult. That's it. Far from "everything important".

This is the reason there is such a massive power gap between MagDK and StamDK right now.

StamDK gets very little out of the buffed Combustion and World in Ruin. Very little. MagDK gets a tremendous amount of power from these.

Not that StamDK is in a bad spot - rather the opposite, we're on par with StamDen and StamCro which is something nobody ever once said since those two classes debuted.

Look to StamDK for an appropriate, balanced application of this idea of elemental affinity.

No you're right, most of the problems are mag dk side, but technically the lines are blurred nowadays, as a stam DK I'd pick up Burning Embers and as a mag DK I'd take Noxious Breath. You have FoO, Leap, Standard, Chains, you have fire enchants for mag return. There is a ton of fire damage that stam DK's use.

Regardless, you're right and stam DK seems to be in a more balanced state like you mentioned. It's hard to find many good reasons to go stam DK over mag DK nowadays. I was mainly making a point about DK's fire affinity. The poison affinity wasn't really the major point that I was trying to make, but it's worth mentioning that of the 8 status types they are the 2 strongest status effects at base value, further boosted by 3 passive effects.

It's kind of odd to me that 1 class can determine if it's worth using vampire or not, don't you? Vampire popularity lives and dies by DK popularity. A BG match as a vampire against the majority of the lobby as DK is HELL. Imagine it was more direct, people would have a fit. A DK passive that said something like "Do 10-20% more damage to undead." Well.. thats basically whats happening right now.

Fire damage is also not exclusive to "mag" anymore due to CP or penetration related issues we once had. As a stam DK, just because you have less poison options, doesn't mean you're not benefiting just as much from the fire damage side of the class. It's just less prevelant because you may or may not being using something like Whip which does the majority of the burst.

I rather like the idea of actually having a clearly defined element affinity for the class, return from status effects, extra status effect damage, most of the skills are of those 2 elements. It's fantastic class design, but I question whether ZOS considers it on their spreadsheet standards when balancing the classes power. I highly doubt it.

Actually, I tried finding online where it says Werewolves take extra poison damage and I don't see it on the major up to date websites, only old forums, so I'm a bit confused on whether thats even still in the game at this point.

huskandhunger

Dragonknights are the bane of my existence. They are always tanky, and never die, they always fossilize you and leap you.

Even if I build tanky, they can just use Corrosive armor and gain back their health, mag, stam with Battle Roar and then gain dmg reduction to 3% of their max hp, AND ignore any resistances I have for the next 10 seconds when they deal direct damage. Fighting these bast*rds is just a pain in the @ss.

Nerhesi

There is no point to having this discussion unless there is an overhaul of pvp elements. Like who has access to what minor/major buffs. Who has access to status effects as abilities in class rather than weapon abilities. Should anyone have better poisoned/chilled/burning/etc than someone else?

Right now, DKs have 2 proc sets that are better than actual proc sets on-demand without putting on a single proc set actually on (burning and poison).

Imagine giving a necro Oblivion's foe and plaguebearer 5 piece bonus procs, for free, when they cast blast bones and flaming skull. Silly and ridiculous.

PvP_Exploiter

So DKs on live are way overperforming. They are arguably best-in-slot for every PvP mode/scenario/situation.

Charged - since it's recent buff - is also a contibuting factor to this, along with the buff to DKs combustion passive.



Then in the coming High Isles update, we are getting a new CP - which is very strong - relating to status effects.

Force of Nature (New): Increases your Offensive Penetration by 900 for each status effect your target has. 1 stage, 50 points.

To co-incide with this, the current offensive CP options are all getting nerfed. Which makes Force of Nature stand out as the go-to option next update.

Which isn't a bad thing, but with Chargeds current state, along with DKs current state, this greatest benefit will be for the already most overperforming class.

Minalan

Someone please make the combat design team PVP for a week, and they can’t play an DK. If they come out of that and they haven’t deleted DK as a playable class I’ll be surprised.

It’s ridiculous. Please fix.

the1andonlyskwex

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Then in the coming High Isles update, we are getting a new CP - which is very strong - relating to status effects.

Force of Nature (New): Increases your Offensive Penetration by 900 for each status effect your target has. 1 stage, 50 points.

To co-incide with this, the current offensive CP options are all getting nerfed. Which makes Force of Nature stand out as the go-to option next update.

Which isn't a bad thing, but with Chargeds current state, along with DKs current state, this greatest benefit will be for the already most overperforming class.

On the other hand, anybody can use charged weapons, and DKs are so fire-focused they actually have a harder time applying a variety of different status effects than other classes (and burning doesn't stack with itself).

MashmalloMan

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Then in the coming High Isles update, we are getting a new CP - which is very strong - relating to status effects.

Force of Nature (New): Increases your Offensive Penetration by 900 for each status effect your target has. 1 stage, 50 points.

To co-incide with this, the current offensive CP options are all getting nerfed. Which makes Force of Nature stand out as the go-to option next update.

Which isn't a bad thing, but with Chargeds current state, along with DKs current state, this greatest benefit will be for the already most overperforming class.

On the other hand, anybody can use charged weapons, and DKs are so fire-focused they actually have a harder time applying a variety of different status effects than other classes (and burning doesn't stack with itself).

Burning and poisoned doesn't stack, but it ticks at 0s. So applying it more often does net more damage than you think. Not to mention they're further buffed by 5% and 50% passives and of course, the mag/stam return.

Other status types that do direct damage + a debuff like shock/frost/disease/physical/magic all do a minor amount of upfront damage because the focus is primarily the debuff. This means burning and poisoned probably do more upfront damage even though they're dots.

In regards to the new CP, there is no reason to not run Charged for DKs because they have so much synergy. It's a lot more debatable for other classes, so they may not see as much use from a star like that. While running mostly only 2 damage, it's actually better than most classes have going for them. Even Mag DK's should or will run poison breath, corrosive armor and a poison enchant. So it's not just burning.

Really, the only class with multiple elements built in is Necro and thats rather obvious because they're the Elementalist class of the game.

Templar/NB is very magic focussed. Warden's got some frost. Sorc's got some shock.

Most stam builds will run physical as their primary damage type because they rely on weapons to spam or execute.

So I'd say DK is the middle of the pact in terms of element access simply because they won't usually run something like Force Pulse, Ele Weapon or Vamp Slash. They are more likely to run the new star, mostly because they're already using charged.

It's worth noting, the star gives you a bonus of 900 per status effect the enemy has, not what you apply. Anyone else fighting the enemy and applying status effects will effect you too. Since burning/poison can't be obtained as frequently as any other class, fighting with a DK is going to be a solid buff for both of you, using the CP star.

For me, stam sorc, the star looks pointless in solo play.

Alchimiste1

Liam12548 wrote: »

Combustion is a busted passive. On live, I current play my magDK with a total of 900 mag regen and 800 stam regen fully buffed with a potion. One infused reduce cost glyph gives you near infinite sustain, and two gives you true infinite sustain.

Ash cloud is also broken. It was changed several patches ago to have a per second cost, which is great in theory, but the developers seemed to have forgotten about reduce cost glyphs when they did this. With one infused and one normal reduce cost on a breton, you reduce the cost of ash cloud to 0 - making it a free AOE heal and 70% snare, as well as a free spammable stamina regen via earthen heart.

FOO is broken. When they changed it to hit 3 targets, they probably should have reduced the damage by a bit. I've seen this thing hit as high as 6k, especially when I'm in corrosive (which is easily the strongest offensive ult in the game currentley).

Molten whip hits insanely hard. I've hit as high as 16k molten whips, and very frequently hit good players in proper builds for 10-12k when in corrosive, which is about as high as I hit good players with my spectral bows on a full damage glass cannon nightblade. Also provides a signifcant spell damage buff.

MagDK is so far above every class right now that it's just frustrating to play anything else. What you can do on a magDK just puts everything else to shame.

Here is some gameplay (with the builds I used in the description) demonstrating how busted it is. This is from last patch before the burning embers buff, which made magdk even stronger. A 4% nerf in damage changes nothing.

https://youtu.be/YuvyB0GJZK4

All true

Decimus

A little disappointed to see no changes to DK in 8.0.2.

One month (1-2 more PTS patches) left to make sure it is not yet another patch of mDK meta.

Lailaamell

Best nerf remove fosselise and remove burning poison proc from dk skills and remove healing from the healing dot morph and nerf dragon blood and its morphs

Mayrael

Decimus wrote: »

A little disappointed to see no changes to DK in 8.0.2.

One month (1-2 more PTS patches) left to make sure it is not yet another patch of mDK meta.

Not going to happen. You've seen 8.0.2 notes? Welcome to mDK year.

Pterion87

Lailaamell wrote: »

Best nerf remove fosselise and remove burning poison proc from dk skills and remove healing from the healing dot morph and nerf dragon blood and its morphs

You want to fight a dummy? Looool

Mr_Stach

Sounds like you just want DK removed all together lol.

DerpyBossGamer

Totally agree that magdk needs a nerf, coming from a magdk main since launch. However, I feel like Magplar needs more immediate adjustment. I can’t help but feel ZOS favors plar, given that they have been the best pvp class in high level pvp, are the most easily accessible pve dps, and are essentially immortal while being able to kill anything.

I 100% understand how strong magdk is. I mostly duel, where magdk excels, and I can beat many people solely because of my class. However, any magplar with a brain instantly beats magdk, and every other class. Within 30 minutes of playing magplar I was able to beat every player on the pts other than literal pvp gods. You have infinite healing, purges, great stam sustain for a mag class bc of YOUR [snip] ARMOR BUFF that also heals and gives sustain, and you can hit optimized builds for 25k burst.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

Mr_Stach

DerpyBossGamer wrote: »

Totally agree that magdk needs a nerf, coming from a magdk main since launch. However, I feel like Magplar needs more immediate adjustment. I can’t help but feel ZOS favors plar, given that they have been the best pvp class in high level pvp, are the most easily accessible pve dps, and are essentially immortal while being able to kill anything.

I mean Plar can solo everything with one skill for damage and heals. Also a great Ranged Stun with Javelin. Has a tool for every situation. I mean I like my Magplar but it's definitely too strong.

DizzyMac

the way to really ruin a DKs day is negating them using a sorc, but you need more than 1 person cos lets face it sorcs have been getting a raw deal for how long?

Decimus

Mr_Stach wrote: »

DerpyBossGamer wrote: »

Totally agree that magdk needs a nerf, coming from a magdk main since launch. However, I feel like Magplar needs more immediate adjustment. I can’t help but feel ZOS favors plar, given that they have been the best pvp class in high level pvp, are the most easily accessible pve dps, and are essentially immortal while being able to kill anything.

I mean Plar can solo everything with one skill for damage and heals. Also a great Ranged Stun with Javelin. Has a tool for every situation. I mean I like my Magplar but it's definitely too strong.

Magplar is strong defensively, but there is a very easy counter to its offense: keep snare/root immunity up & walk/run out of their spammable. Outside of Xv1s I don't see magplar as something that's hard to deal with - only if you stand in their jabs and eat a fully stacked Purifying Light for some reason.

Defensively they were a bit overtuned though and that was addressed in this patch (Living Dark change).


Magicka DK, which has the same amount of defense & more offensive pressure to which there is no counterplay? No changes whatsoever.

Mr_Stach

Combat Lead must be an mDK Main lol

CyberDiva

In my experience magic Dragonknight is weak as hell in PvE. You can't proclaim it needs a nerf without taking PvE into consideration also, especially since they don't split the PvE and PvP skills like they should.

Mr_Stach

CyberDiva wrote: »

In my experience magic Dragonknight is weak as hell in PvE. You can't proclaim it needs a nerf without taking PvE into consideration also, especially since they don't split the PvE and PvP skills like they should.

I would say most Balance Changes are driven by PvP since that's where the loudest people are. I don't see a lot of PvE Driven changes being yelled from the mountain tops, with a few exceptions of course like the Warhorn Nerf back whenever that happened.

I think that PvE & PvP balance should 1000% be separated for exactly what you said, DK is a monster in PvP but kind of middle of the road in PvE. They probably avoid adjusting DK at this time because doing so would decimate it in PvE.

Kind dumb because there are Champion Point Passives for PvE & PvP, they should be able to adjust values between abilities as well.

ManM

CyberDiva wrote: »

In my experience magic Dragonknight is weak as hell in PvE. You can't proclaim it needs a nerf without taking PvE into consideration also, especially since they don't split the PvE and PvP skills like they should.

Take a look at the "weak as hell" magdk in this log:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/hr3yQ7fdv9DLmXZj#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=summary

I'm pretty sure that's not weak.