So Where Are The mDK Nerfs?

Mr_Stach

ManM wrote: »

CyberDiva wrote: »

In my experience magic Dragonknight is weak as hell in PvE. You can't proclaim it needs a nerf without taking PvE into consideration also, especially since they don't split the PvE and PvP skills like they should.

Take a look at the "weak as hell" magdk in this log:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/hr3yQ7fdv9DLmXZj#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=summary

I'm pretty sure that's not weak.

Man I haven't looked at Logs in a long time but Dayum, DKs be pumpin it seems.

ManM

Yep.

Mr_Stach

Yeah first Warden was at like 132 or somethin, I don't care much for super sweaty meta, but that's still kind of ridiculous.

Runefang

CyberDiva wrote: »

In my experience magic Dragonknight is weak as hell in PvE. You can't proclaim it needs a nerf without taking PvE into consideration also, especially since they don't split the PvE and PvP skills like they should.

It’s the most dominant PvE class by a country mile. Still often used as a tank. Always wanted for Zens. And the top dps class in every trial every Asylum.

Everest_Lionheart

MDK is the top class now because hybridization benefits this class more than any other. Without Rele and vMA 2H they would perform on par with Necro, Blade and Plar.

acastanza_ESO

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MDK is the top class now because hybridization benefits this class more than any other. Without Rele and vMA 2H they would perform on par with Necro, Blade and Plar.

This is flatly untrue. Neither Rele or vMA 2H work in Ravenwatch and MagDK still dominates every other class.

Everest_Lionheart

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MDK is the top class now because hybridization benefits this class more than any other. Without Rele and vMA 2H they would perform on par with Necro, Blade and Plar.

This is flatly untrue. Neither Rele or vMA 2H work in Ravenwatch and MagDK still dominates every other class.

Should have specified, PvE.

StShoot

I think sustain is finaly in a good spot, it was horrible for the past years. Foss is also the same as it was (strong but thats every blockbreaking CC) and so is molten whip, which gives you a strong burst but you will lack a real spamable. Combustion is maybe a little bit overtunded but at the same time it only gives you sustain when you attack the enemy, if you are kiting or if you get pressured to hard it is realy lackluster.

What needs to be nerfed is corrosive amor, it was fine back when it only gave ph penetration because stam dks had an easyer to read moveset and an harder time to foss their opponents. It enables tha dk to build far less offensive while still hitting like a truck.

olsborg

Combustion is way, way overtuned, giving so much sustain its insane, even when not coupled with charged, but with charged its just broken. Corrosive armor is a way too strong ulti, who cares if it costs alot, when you use it, you kill anything and you dont take dmg while doing so. Molten whip hits wayyyy too hard.

acastanza_ESO

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MDK is the top class now because hybridization benefits this class more than any other. Without Rele and vMA 2H they would perform on par with Necro, Blade and Plar.

This is flatly untrue. Neither Rele or vMA 2H work in Ravenwatch and MagDK still dominates every other class.

Should have specified, PvE.

I still don't think that argument works. When everyone has access to Rele and vMA 2H - DK overperforms, when no one has access to Rele or vMA 2H, DK still overperforms. Sure, I suppose if DK didn't have access to Rele and vMA 2H and everyone else did then DK wouldn't overperform but that isn't a realistic comparison.

Mr_Stach

Like I'm glad that DK is in a Good Spot, I really am. But I think the Good Spot is overtuned and they could easily tone it back and it still be in a good spot. All outliers should be brought in, whether above or below.

Urzigurumash

You are all wrong about Corrosive being the issue.

That's why mDK is top of the pack in PvE? In BGs, where you only get a few Corrosives per round? Outside of Hybridization - this Ult has never been buffed, just switched to Poison damage in 2016, and had its DoT Pen removed in 2019 I think, unless I've forgotten something.

What are other Ults where it's impossible to min-max your Damage with the Ult while simultaneously min-maxing your damage without the Ult? Off the top of my head, only Berserker Strike, which is now about on par with Lacerate in its popularity.

But, if it is nerfed, only further confirmation of a grim reality which may be manifesting: hybridization has been, henceforth, a disaster for StamDK and StamPlar identity.

But we just had to have that Whip, didn't we..

Perhaps I need to dispense of all my old ideas and think about ways a Stam-stacking DK or Templar can find advantages over a Mag-stacking one. For Warden and Necro, these advantages are clear. For Sorc and NB I have no idea about anything.

acastanza_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You are all wrong about Corrosive being the issue.

For Sorc and NB I have no idea about anything.

At least for Sorc, its the opposite way around. StamSorc ate MagSorc's lunch and stuffed it in a locker.
The last thing MagSorc had over StamSorc was Crystal Frags, but now StamSorc has easy access to the most valuable part of that, the Proc'ed Frag since now that can key off Stam abilities also. But the Stamina Morph, Crystal Weapon, is the better morph in the next patch anyway, and the latest patch notes increased it's cost, which doesn't hurt StamSorc much since they Stam Stack anyway, it only relally hurts MagSorc's ability to afford to cast that morph. It's pretty sad.

Urzigurumash

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You are all wrong about Corrosive being the issue.

For Sorc and NB I have no idea about anything.

At least for Sorc, its the opposite way around. StamSorc ate MagSorc's lunch and stuffed it in a locker.
The last thing MagSorc had over StamSorc was Crystal Frags, but now StamSorc has easy access to the most valuable part of that, the Proc'ed Frag since now that can key off Stam abilities also. But the Stamina Morph, Crystal Weapon, is the better morph in the next patch anyway, and the latest patch notes increased it's cost, which doesn't hurt StamSorc much since they Stam Stack anyway, it only relally hurts MagSorc's ability to afford to cast that morph. It's pretty sad.

Well perhaps we can find satisfaction in this new status quo, for now, if we can strike some reasonable level of balance between the 6 classes, and then take another look at the 12 class idea. That new status quo being:

Mag Classes: DK, Templar
Stam Classes: Sorc, Warden
Either Way: NB, Necro

That's a bit hypothetical because I'm not really sure how mNB and sNB shake out right now.

This really isn't a tremendous departure from the way things more or less have always been other than mSorc having much more presence than StamSorc over the years. DK and Templar usually leaned Mag, if you look at the total history of the game. At least since VD was released MagNB and StamNB always had a pretty distinct niche, and MagCro and StamCro have both been strong since they were introduced.

Which is to say then if Corrosive needs a nerf to balance mDK, despite being a great affront to the legacy of sDK, then so be it I guess, if it's for the greater good of balance. Selflessness is of course a defining characteristic of a proper Knight.

Urzigurumash

But let us be clear about something:

If you're dying to mDKs with Corrosive, and it's nerfed while nothing else about mDK is, you'll be dying to mDKs with Dawnbreaker.

Does that sound like a positive improvement for diversity in PvP to you?

Ults are a strong and distinct part of class and playstyle identity. They're the last thing which should be nerfed - passives which have no visual effect and no real bearing on playstyle should be the first thing to be nerfed.

For DK that would be World in Ruin, wouldn't it? That's why they're at the top in PvE no?

For years StamDKs with a backbarred Corrosive in Cyro served a distinct purpose - True Tank killers, even though we used Leap for 9/10 Ults. That was always a place we could shine in a small group where other classes didn't have any particular tricks up their sleeve to deal with True Tanks.

Mr_Stach

Urzigurumash wrote: »

But let us be clear about something:

If you're dying to mDKs with Corrosive, and it's nerfed while nothing else about mDK is, you'll be dying to mDKs with Dawnbreaker.

Does that sound like a positive improvement for diversity in PvP to you?

Yeah, Corrosive is very strong, but so is the rest of DK. They Are uber Tanky, Damagey, and Healey...... You're gonna have a hard time no matter what

Everest_Lionheart

Urzigurumash wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You are all wrong about Corrosive being the issue.

For Sorc and NB I have no idea about anything.

At least for Sorc, its the opposite way around. StamSorc ate MagSorc's lunch and stuffed it in a locker.
The last thing MagSorc had over StamSorc was Crystal Frags, but now StamSorc has easy access to the most valuable part of that, the Proc'ed Frag since now that can key off Stam abilities also. But the Stamina Morph, Crystal Weapon, is the better morph in the next patch anyway, and the latest patch notes increased it's cost, which doesn't hurt StamSorc much since they Stam Stack anyway, it only relally hurts MagSorc's ability to afford to cast that morph. It's pretty sad.

Well perhaps we can find satisfaction in this new status quo, for now, if we can strike some reasonable level of balance between the 6 classes, and then take another look at the 12 class idea. That new status quo being:

Mag Classes: DK, Templar
Stam Classes: Sorc, Warden
Either Way: NB, Necro

That's a bit hypothetical because I'm not really sure how mNB and sNB shake out right now.

This really isn't a tremendous departure from the way things more or less have always been other than mSorc having much more presence than StamSorc over the years. DK and Templar usually leaned Mag, if you look at the total history of the game. At least since VD was released MagNB and StamNB always had a pretty distinct niche, and MagCro and StamCro have both been strong since they were introduced.

Which is to say then if Corrosive needs a nerf to balance mDK, despite being a great affront to the legacy of sDK, then so be it I guess, if it's for the greater good of balance. Selflessness is of course a defining characteristic of a proper Knight.

Because I am on console the only metric I really have are parsing. I hit 119K on both. MagDK and Magcro. The difference being DK has 3 stam skills and can easily sustain medium armor due to combustion passive where my Cro needs to run 6 stam skills and can barely sustain medium armor.

My magplar and magblade are both at 110K and depending on content are sometimes better to run despite lower top end damage. My stamcro, stamblade and Stamden also took 110 but play different in content with slightly worse sustain. My magden is lagging behind with its dual inferno staves at 105 but plays easier in content than parsing.

When it comes to content though unless you’re on a super sweaty team optimized with all the buff (the true key to maxing out damage output) you won’t really notice the difference between 100, 110 or 120K dps because we are talking about killing things Only a few seconds faster. 100K is way more than you will ever need for anything but vRG hard modes.

Every class is over performing and you don’t even need BiS gear or a perfect rotation.

MashmalloMan

StShoot wrote: »

I think sustain is finaly in a good spot, it was horrible for the past years. Foss is also the same as it was (strong but thats every blockbreaking CC) and so is molten whip, which gives you a strong burst but you will lack a real spamable. Combustion is maybe a little bit overtunded but at the same time it only gives you sustain when you attack the enemy, if you are kiting or if you get pressured to hard it is realy lackluster.

What needs to be nerfed is corrosive amor, it was fine back when it only gave ph penetration because stam dks had an easyer to read moveset and an harder time to foss their opponents. It enables tha dk to build far less offensive while still hitting like a truck.

Fiery Breath morphs dot lasts 14s ticking every 2s, so 7 ticks, and is calculated as single target dot instead of aoe. This means they get a base status effect proc chance of 3% instead of 1%.

With Charged, that 3% is 17.4% with DW or 2H, 3% more with Destro staff, 1.8% more with CP, so up to 22.2% per tick.

Burning Talons, same boat, dot damage calculated as single target instead of aoe dot.

FoO lasts 15s, procs 4 times over it's duration, hits 3 targets at a time and is calculated as single target direct damage instead of aoe direct damage. This means they get a base status effect proc chance of 10% instead of 5%.

With Charged, that 10% is 58% with DW or 2H, 10% more with Destro staff, 6% more with CP, so up to 74%.

So saying DK's sustain is required of you to stay in direct combat is a fallacy when DK's kit is based around extended duration dots, high proc chances, and delayed damage like FoO, that can proc status effects without the DK needing to directly fight with someone.

On classes or builds that can't purge, you're basically a walking battery for a DK. On my Sorc for example, on average I'm probably going to give a DK 2-5k Magicka back over 14s just from Claw and Breath alone when I'm not even near them.

You can only argue against in combat sustain when it comes to things like cost reduction as you need to actively spam abilities to see use out of that, DK's combustion passive is an entirely different ball game.

I really think this is something players nor ZOS consider, combustion and charged is very strong, but they're based on the application and ease of access of the kit and for whatever reason, a bunch of their aoe skills count as single target which defeats the entire balance strategy behind aoes having lower proc chances because you can attack more than 1 target at once.

Urzigurumash

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

But let us be clear about something:

If you're dying to mDKs with Corrosive, and it's nerfed while nothing else about mDK is, you'll be dying to mDKs with Dawnbreaker.

Does that sound like a positive improvement for diversity in PvP to you?

Yeah, Corrosive is very strong, but so is the rest of DK. They Are uber Tanky, Damagey, and Healey...... You're gonna have a hard time no matter what

Right so leave the classic class Ult untouched so you don't end up with same shake on class balance but with the leading classes running a non-class Ult instead. That makes sense right? On the other hand I could see one make the argument that, within the context of the present environment of PvP, the state of Corrosive was always going to be overpowered - unless DK was inherently underpowered - but especially in terms of their mobility, sustain out of Combat, and Crit.

We could get into technicalities about how and why Corrosive gave sDK a unique advantage over the years, but long story short it was inherent in its design (and Leap's) that the Class would have a bit less burst and mobility than other classes overall outside of the use of their overpowered Ults, largely because of the lack of synergy with Crit in their passives and skills compared to other classes.

This was especially apparent in the simple comparison between a StamDK and a StamSorc's Dizzy Swing. Under what circumstances could an equally optimized StamDK expect to have stronger Dizzy Swings than a StamSorc? Only through Corrosive. And so as we all know our only other real unique trick over StamSorc was waiting for Venomous Claw to do its damage and hit em with the Dizzy then. Corrosive was changed to Poison at the same patch we were given Venomous Claw. These skills were fundamental to the identity carved out for StamDK in these early years since Weapon Skills alone weren't going to cut it forever.

I celebrated the hybridization of Corrosive for my MagDK friends. I don't think this change is the problem. Rather the class simply has too much underlying mobility, sustain, and burst. But, on the other hand, the class having access to this underlying sustain, mobility, and burst, is what has allowed them to ascend from the Worst to Best after a long era dominated by StamDens and StamCros with incredible sustain, mobility, and burst.

Urzigurumash

And when I say DK was meant to have weak sustain let me again clarify I mean sustain out of combat - Combustion and Battle Roar are not the only 2 sustain passives which do not work out of combat - also Constitution.

And also let me issue a reminder about what might be DK's strongest unique modifier - our Healing Received. Like the Healing Received in Heavy.

So if DK has (or was supposed to have) an inherent lack of Crit (no unique Crit passives, sustain synergy with Heavy Armor), and also has an inherent bonus to Healing Received, it again gets to the question of how much of class balance in PvP is related to the ratio of Damage-Healing in Battlespirit.

Urzigurumash

@MashmalloMan

Your point about the status effect chances of these AoE-born single-target DoTs is a good one. I could see if there's some reason here from PvE though, since Ground AoEs are stronger in PvE than PvP.

Flames of Oblivion used to be AoE Direct Damage until not too long ago, but also Sea of Flames at one point was like Flames of Oblivion but it gave Mag back. I'm pretty sure about both of those but I could be wrong.

Charged is definitely extremely strong, on any class with Physical single-target you can get that Minor Breach with like 100% uptime, which is almost as strong as Sharpened, so in 1v1 if you don't have Minor Breach it might be a better choice over Sharpened on a number of builds.

StShoot

@MashmalloMan
Maybe i should have clarified that i play on no cp no proc cyro, where you have harder time to sustain anyway also i was referring to a situation where the dk is forced to stay on its backbar (against multiple opponents) and doesnt have the time to refresh its dots which happens sometimes since you dont have a reliable escape tool to take pressure away from you.
I guess when you call your magsorc a "battery" you are just standing around and doing nothing, the batterys i know dont normaly throw crystal frags and forcepulses at me =P.
If you consider skills like dark deal, rune focus or the netch of the warden, combustion is actual an in combat ability, since you have to switch on your frontbar go melee reapplay said dots.

But dont get me wrong when i said combustion is ok i was not referring to charged, charged was strong before it was buffed and now it has become meta on every dk (not to mention heartland conqueror, the set that everyone uses in no cp.

Ragnaroek93

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

olsborg

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Yea, its almost baffling. I mean if it wasn't zos doing the balancing it would be, but its almost expected now.

axi

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Yeah first Warden was at like 132 or somethin, I don't care much for super sweaty meta, but that's still kind of ridiculous.

Is it though? Top scores on leaderboards are always performed by people devoted to fully optimise and squeeze whatever they can so even if one class will be 1% ahead of everyone else You will still see top X (put here whatever number You want) filled with that one class because everyone who participates in score chasing will want to get that 1% boost. There were times when leaderbopards were full of necros or nightblades. If leaderboards would start earlier You could also find other classes being top dogs overshadowing everyone else. When it comes to warden it was never top choice for a parse bot in trials which is why You wont see this class taking high spots in leaderboards.

axi

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

katorga

IMO the combustion sustain passive breaks the pve game, not just pvp.

It bypasses or works around scenarios that turn off sustain or that ZOS previously nerfed, and that remain nerfed for the other classes.

Mayrael

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

Urzigurumash

katorga wrote: »

IMO the combustion sustain passive breaks the pve game, not just pvp.

It bypasses or works around scenarios that turn off sustain or that ZOS previously nerfed, and that remain nerfed for the other classes.

Expand on that last sentence if you're able - we could use more discussion about how and why specific parts of DK were overtuned.

For PvP StamDK, Combustion wasn't just tuned up - with buffed Charged it's pretty much a brand new passive. If you look at what a PvP StamDK ran 2018-2021 (Combustion got the sustain feature in 2018) the returns from Combustion were close to nothing, more or less it was just an additional cost reduction to V Claw. Like I said above I'm pretty sure FoO was reclassified from AoE to single target sometime in 2019-2021, I don't recall exactly when.

If you look back at DK threads you'll see the most frequent specific request about DK sustain was just to uncap Battle Roar. If you played DK you know how this was a problem, especially in coordinated groups. Maybe there's room for discussion about whether the Resource per Ult value should be adjusted, but the uncapping alone is definitely a positive change that the class sorely needed for years.

Many of us regard Battle Roar as a playstyle defining feature of DK, so it should be strong.

Urzigurumash

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

This is then a great example of what I'm talking about with DK and Templar benefitting from the current ratio of Healing-Damage in Battlespirit.

Why were StamBlade and MagSorc so strong and popular during the first patch of No Proc Greyhost? Well part of it was the gear selection, some of those stats sets were meta on those classes even with procs available, but I think more so it was because we just got the 1k additional damage, the new Champion system didn't have some of the damage reduction stars, and the Damage Reduction in Battlespirit was less. It had nothing to do with the state of the class skills themselves compared to other patches. Does that sound right to you @Mayrael ? If StamBlade wasn't strong on your server in the early weeks of No Proc Cyro then never mind, we're playing in very different environments.

All damage is equally modified by these things, of course, but Ranged Crit can reach a level where players die before they can react or outheal - it's not quite the same with DK's DoTs, again without any unique bonus to Crit behind them. Again, DK has a unique Healing Received modifier, so if Heals are weak, the passive is weak, if Heals are strong, the passive is strong.