So Where Are The mDK Nerfs?

WoppaBoem

axi wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I believe the DK community has done a great job at misleading Zenimax for years. Every PTS, there were cries for buffs to Dk and ZoS granted them and this was mirrored by a lack of complains and calls for nerfs by the rest of the community. DKs have never been weak or bad in any content and yet still got buffed every single patch.

Sorcerer, Templar Nightblade; they had plenty of calls for nerfs from the community and ZoS granted.
This is why I think DK ended up as it is now: A greedy DK community that had every wish granted even though the class was great and pretty OP years ago.

The deception is especially apparent when it comes to the topic of healing. It was always complained how underperforming Dragonblood is, but guess what, it's actually the strongest self heal in the game while Arctic Wind was the weakest, yet everyone complained about Arctic Wind and not Dragonblood. Seems nobody ever went through the effort of actually comparing classes with equalish stats. Well played DK community.

What DK community? Up until recent dk buffs the only consistantly decent DKs You would see in PvP were stam DKs and only ones who were doing fine on those were decent PvP players. You wouldn't find casual player being problematic to fight against on a DK. Mag DK community was at the verge of extinction outside of maybe dueling and few heavy attack memers so I guess You assume that this was all part of the plan to not play on the class for couple of years just to decive ZoS into thinking mag Dk is underperforming so they would buff DK after that time. What a genius move of a DK community. Truly a master plan.

Agreed my magdk turned into my crafter for the last 2 years. Every patch I gave it a go but I could never build for sustain not instantly die and be able to kill someone for many patches. So this patch is the best one for me since the change of my beloved pre nerf DK wings

olsborg

WoppaBoem wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I believe the DK community has done a great job at misleading Zenimax for years. Every PTS, there were cries for buffs to Dk and ZoS granted them and this was mirrored by a lack of complains and calls for nerfs by the rest of the community. DKs have never been weak or bad in any content and yet still got buffed every single patch.

Sorcerer, Templar Nightblade; they had plenty of calls for nerfs from the community and ZoS granted.
This is why I think DK ended up as it is now: A greedy DK community that had every wish granted even though the class was great and pretty OP years ago.

The deception is especially apparent when it comes to the topic of healing. It was always complained how underperforming Dragonblood is, but guess what, it's actually the strongest self heal in the game while Arctic Wind was the weakest, yet everyone complained about Arctic Wind and not Dragonblood. Seems nobody ever went through the effort of actually comparing classes with equalish stats. Well played DK community.

What DK community? Up until recent dk buffs the only consistantly decent DKs You would see in PvP were stam DKs and only ones who were doing fine on those were decent PvP players. You wouldn't find casual player being problematic to fight against on a DK. Mag DK community was at the verge of extinction outside of maybe dueling and few heavy attack memers so I guess You assume that this was all part of the plan to not play on the class for couple of years just to decive ZoS into thinking mag Dk is underperforming so they would buff DK after that time. What a genius move of a DK community. Truly a master plan.

Agreed my magdk turned into my crafter for the last 2 years. Every patch I gave it a go but I could never build for sustain not instantly die and be able to kill someone for many patches. So this patch is the best one for me since the change of my beloved pre nerf DK wings

Every magdk in the game feels like that, "this is the patch for me" , and yea why not, its grossly OP.

Mayrael

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

Well the only game I see being played here is the one where You intentionally ignore many important details just to create context which will fit Your agenda.

You've lost minor vitality? You got minor mending
You've lost major fracture? You still have it on mark and You got minor fracture and passive penetration.
You've lost expedition on crippling grasp? If only there were other ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost minor berserk? If only there were other easy ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost major defile? Hmm, Soul Harvest tooltip must be lying then.
Path got standarized? You mean healing or damaging one because damaging one is still the strongest class ground based AoE while ritual of retribution while maybe not reciving dmg nerf had its healing portion removed.
You've lost CC because other classes have CC? That argument is actually the most silly one but it shows Your overall line of thinking that if any class will have acces to anything that is similar to some nb feature that nb have or had then suddenly in Your eyes "nb lost it".

You've lost cloak because vampires can dissapear now while sprinting? I guess You never had cloak in a first place then because people could use stealth or invisibility potions since launch. You have issues with cathing sorc? Well who would guess that can be a thing when fighting a class with defensive based around mobility.

Going by Your logic I guess everyone else lost burst heal now when nb finally got one? It's funny how You cherrypick downsides of the class, which btw every class have and You try to ignore upsides and buffs that class recived. Getting burst heal for example is a big deal for a nb and it's the biggest buff nb could get and You can really see it.

The only thing that nb truly lost is ability to not make choices because at some point class had overabundance of abilities packed with passive goodies (especially noticable on stamblade).

2022 nb slaps 2019 nb with ease through itemization changes itself. Like I already said newest addition of a burst heal is a big deal and first time since years I've seen magblade pulling 1vX in noCP Cyro effectively and consistantly even against enemies with some brain cells. Magblade can even withstand and defeat decent magDKs. Yes You can claim people capable of that are good players but how many noob mag DKs have You seen being able to do the same? Feats like that will always require decent player behind the wheel.

You don't get it. Yes I can get all those things back by sloting this and that but hey guess what? I would have to use useless skills that don't fit in pvp. I can use refreshing path to get major exp back, I can get berserk by using new ambush (which is clumsy, is the only gap closer with cast time and requires target), I can get major defile by using worse morph of ultimate and because of all changes made before to NB I cant do it because I have no room for just close range stun (I used to have but because all of my skills got ripped of secondary buffs I cant anymore).

Getting heal was a result of a fact that Cloak has so many counters that NB was forced to use resto staff or it is dead - go play one and youll see how many things breaks cloak. One of my favs is Elemental Susceptibility - every few seconds pulls you out of cloak for 60s when new status effect is applied. Oh and through many years that one heal was the only meaningfull buff to NB, all the rest was just reworking things so NB bar would be harder to manage. Moving crucial buffs to things NBs are not using to force us to use useless skills. Like soul harvest, refreshing path, mark target, ambush and many more, while DKs and Temps got their primary most used skills buffed.

It's not about that NB have no access to mentioned things, it's about where those things are placed.

Let's take DK for example.
Major breach? AoE dot used by everyone anyway - at least now second choice won't be obvious since now it is more damage vs heavy armor or more overall damage.
Major prophecy and savagery? Nighbalde doesn't even have that in it's toolkit, you can have heal or powerfull dot with that.
Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.
Snare and root immunity? I have to slot RAT for this and I have just that it's a good skill but I don't have any choice, while DK can go for a skill that gives him 50% damage reduction to almost whole magblade toolkit. At least you have choice.
Major sorcery and brutality? Don't even start it.
Major mending? I can get at best minor mending or channel resto staff heavy attack.
And maybe you want to talko about almost free to use (with 1 cost reduction glyph) heal that also snares by 70%? (which NB has bound to ULTIMATE lol!)
Should we compare ultimates?
Corrosive Armor vs Bolstering Darkness or Veil of blades? Corrosive giving almost immortality, up to 50% damage increase (depending on targets armor), dot, and resources back thanks to passives vs 10% damage reduction and 70% snare + few seconds of major resolve thanks to passives?
Ferocious Leap vs Incapacitating Strike? Almost the same cost but Ferocious deals more damage (with the same stats) is ranged, has no cast time (travel time>cast time since you have to stop everything you do and wait till it actually fires to not break it), is AoE which makes it almost impossible to dodge have unbreakable CC thanks to knockback bug and grands you huge shield. Incap single target that is dodged 60-80% of a time, that deals less damage. It grants you 20% more damage (if you manage to land it) and passively increases your crit chance by around 2% and gives sustain.

Oh I see the game of choosing arguments to fit the agenda and ignoring reality continues. You can slot race against time to get major expedition and camo hunter to get berserk. Both are very good and commonly used abilities. It's not like You're being locked to use just class tools and that if You need to look usefull tool outside of the class kit then suddenly a class is weak. Yes they're not nb specific tool but same goes for many tools that make other classes including DK strong atm (vampire, charged trait, radiating regen etc). As long as something empowers specific class kit it still counts towards being good for a specific class. As for defile goes like I said earlier it's one of those places where You need to make a choice which is fine, having everything delivered passively was a bad game design and old incap was a bad game design combining big dmg, stun, 20% more dmg debuff and defile. You complain so much about dk but You wont find many abilities on DK kit that share multiple usages and grant lots of buffs and debuffs passively like some of the nb abilities used to do.

You are adding Your own story to why nb got burst heal, once again for it to fit Your agenda. You can read developer comment as of why this change was made instead of creating Your own imaginary stories. In short they did it because ability was not used much due to pure health cost and lack of selfhealing so they wanted to make it more desirable. Nothing to do with cloak. Get real, don't make up Your own stories to support Your arguments. As for cloak many nbs atm plays with healing morph of it because this combined with new burst heal can make You really tanky and allows to survive heavy beating for a long time. Magblade atm can literally be a brawler and can do it pretty nice. I've tried it and I was positively suprised by the amount of tankiness I had, in some situations 1vX was easier than on DK. Taking away certain buffs and debuffs from a nb or moving them somwhere else was a good decision. It's kinda silly for 2-3 abilities in class kit to give the same thing and for certain abilities to have so many functions at once that other classes needed to slot like 6-7 abilities to get what nb was getting with 2-3 skills.

As I said You still have acces to mentioned things outside of nb kit if You dont like where class itself have them and most of the time these abilities are really good replacement.

Major breach. 50/50 when it comes to reliability in PvP on DK. It may be AoE but the way how cone functions sometimes makes it worse then single target abilities especially in Cyro. Is it bad though? No., but it have its downsides and it's not like You need for major breach to be an AoE to be good. Single target breach with reliable application method very often can be better than half reliable meele cone.

Major peorhecy/savagey. Camo hunter exist? And nb can also add minor savagery on top of that passively. Camo hunter is ability that fits nb playstyle perfectly anyway.

Major resolve. You are really trying to make a fact that nb gets it passively a downside? Your main offense and defense are coming from shadow tree if built properly and people are getting 7-10 seconds easily because some heavy armor pieces will be used. It's childsplay to keep it up passively. Also in full heavy armor You get over 16 seconds not 10, to get it over 10 sec You need 3 heavy which isn't unusual these days.

That immobilize/snare immunity wings are "so good" that You see more nbs using phantasmal escape than dks using protecting plate. In fact You will see more dks using RAT or mist than protecting plate. Seriously some of Your arguments when You try really hard to make some dk tool to look strong are silly and quite frankly if I wanted I could make same line of argumentation where I will blindly point out every nb ability as OP.

Major sorcery/brutality. It's been a while since I've seen decent non heavy attack DK using molten weapons. Most will either use potions or other ability/set to get that because molten weapons is expensive ability that is hard to find spot for since it's just that buff and dk do not have the pleasure of having lots of flex spots. Funnily enough lately I've seen more nbs using sap essence than DKs using molten weapons so same story as with wings, fact that DK have something doesnt make it strong.

Major mending. When was the last time You've seen mag dk using fragmented shield? And what do You mean You can get "at best" minor mending? You get minor mending passively while healing, for a dk to get major mending he needs to actively slot and use ability that gives just that buff which is additional expensive skill cast. Sounds pretty balanced.

Corrosive is a strong ultimate I will agree here but saying is gives almost immortality is overstatement same goes for "up to 50% damage increase". Please do Your math or research before You comment. Not only this is not how dmg calculations formula goes but You also miss the fact it only buffs direct dmg and that not everyone runs with capped resistances. Also I wouldnt compare it to veil of blades but rather to soul tether which is really strong ultimate in nb kit giving lots of AoE dmg , decent heal and stun.

Ferrocious leap is also pretty strong ultimate but downplaying incap for leap to look stronger is once again silly move. That travel time vs cast time comparision made me giggle tbh. Just dont mash buttons like crazy and You will be fine? And to be honest right now in many open world situations soul tether rivals leap when it comes to effectivness.

Personally I do agree that mag DK is strong choice, stronger than magblade in PvP atm but claiming it's god tier(which You've said if i remember correctly) is a big sign that someone allows emotions to blur the judgement. Not only Your judgment seems to be blurred but You are trying to prove Your point by cherrypicking arguments to fit Your agenda completly missing nb strong sides and unique features picturing it as a bunch of downsides when on the other hand trying to make every DK tool even not so great to look OP. Current strenght of DK is not leaving everyone else behind like it was with lets say necro or warden when these classes were dominating. Only tiny percentage of DK players will be real pain most will die easily or with moderate ease because as strong as it is this class is not a free carry like warden was in the past and overall balance right now is way better with many other setups still having strong tools in their kits, to deal even with current top dogs.

You have some valid points, but once again you miss the bigger picture I've tried to show you, DKs active and passive skills allow him to synergize everything very well giving him much flexibility between sustain, offense and defense. Overall DK arsenal almost in every aspect is slightly better than not only NB but also other classes which leads in the end to big advantage. We can argue which skill has more utility or which skill is better etc. etc. but in the end it's the total amount of damage, healing, resistances and sustain is what matters and DK thanks to complexed arsenal is OP right now. That's not my agenda, just read the thread. There is in here a lot of way more experienced players than me, like Decimus, Dracane or Master_Kas. These all are some of the best PvP players ESO ever had and they say with one voice - DK is OP.

What You are seem to be missing when it comes to the bigger picture is that this synergy You are talking about relies heavily on tools from outside of a DK class. DK arsenal is not even complete tbh, class still lacks few features like for example any form of reliable gap closer(leap isn't reliable gap closer since it's an ultimate and chain is a joke) or any form of finishing an enemy that wouldnt be just a burst ability used as finisher. I am not saying DK desperately needs those I am just stating what this class lacks that others have.

That sustain, defense and offense You are talking about is based on 2 pillars , which are charged trait and vampire. I can guarantee You that changing charged from 480% do lets say 320% would already tone down DK strenght. Charged on its own provides lots of damage and sustain into the DK toolkit and because of that also more defense, vampire just tops that off but that happens for almost every class. People claiming that mag DK is OP on its own are really sleeping on fact how greatly charged empowers the class atm. Lets assume You will use posion and absorb stamina glyph on weapons, that combined with the fact You will have sources of magic (volatile armor) and flame(almost everything else) dmg will allow You to keep up : burning status effect providing decent dmg and magicka sustain (which bypasses mist drawback btw), posioned status effect providing decent dmg and stamina sustain , overcharged status effect providing minor magickasteal which means more sustain (also bypasses mist drawbacks) and sundered status effect (absorb stamina glyph deals physical dmg) with high uptime meaning minor breach aka 3k pen for free all of that just with 1 weapon trait.

Yes DK have few decent abilities in his class kit but these abilities wouldn't perform so well if not supported by mentioned above things.

When it comes to relying on opinion of mentioned by You trio I really dont find that as a valid argument. Some of the mentioned are simply biased and some are out of touch with current state of the game.

And now we can agree. This is one of those synergies that make DK so strong. Now ask your self. How many other classes use charged trait in PvP? So is it this trait so OP it needs a nerf or is it DK? If there are better options than this trait for other classes then if ZOS will nerf it, then certainly nobody will use it, even DK'S.

Listen, my opinion is JUST opinion, your opinion is JUST opinion, we are not objective. But as you noticed on your own, some things can make DK very strong, we can argue is this fault of DK arsenal or just good synergy of DK with things available for everyone. I don't really care how will it be done, if ZOS decides to give other classes buffs that will allow them to keep up with DK's then I am happy.

All I want is to lose to only better players, not to easier class. Be cause when I look at my loses in 1v1 in Cyro from last month 95% (totally estimated value) of those would be DK's or in much lesser amount templars.

ESO_Nightingale

olsborg wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I believe the DK community has done a great job at misleading Zenimax for years. Every PTS, there were cries for buffs to Dk and ZoS granted them and this was mirrored by a lack of complains and calls for nerfs by the rest of the community. DKs have never been weak or bad in any content and yet still got buffed every single patch.

Sorcerer, Templar Nightblade; they had plenty of calls for nerfs from the community and ZoS granted.
This is why I think DK ended up as it is now: A greedy DK community that had every wish granted even though the class was great and pretty OP years ago.

The deception is especially apparent when it comes to the topic of healing. It was always complained how underperforming Dragonblood is, but guess what, it's actually the strongest self heal in the game while Arctic Wind was the weakest, yet everyone complained about Arctic Wind and not Dragonblood. Seems nobody ever went through the effort of actually comparing classes with equalish stats. Well played DK community.

What DK community? Up until recent dk buffs the only consistantly decent DKs You would see in PvP were stam DKs and only ones who were doing fine on those were decent PvP players. You wouldn't find casual player being problematic to fight against on a DK. Mag DK community was at the verge of extinction outside of maybe dueling and few heavy attack memers so I guess You assume that this was all part of the plan to not play on the class for couple of years just to decive ZoS into thinking mag Dk is underperforming so they would buff DK after that time. What a genius move of a DK community. Truly a master plan.

Agreed my magdk turned into my crafter for the last 2 years. Every patch I gave it a go but I could never build for sustain not instantly die and be able to kill someone for many patches. So this patch is the best one for me since the change of my beloved pre nerf DK wings

Every magdk in the game feels like that, "this is the patch for me" , and yea why not, its grossly OP.

Jumped into a bgs last night. It was absolutely filthy to fight.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

Rather than nerf DK, or Templars. I want the other classes to be as smooth, as synergistic, as logical with ability use choice as these two.

I bitterly, stupidly first created a Nightblade as my main, with all the questing and crafting and motifs attached to it.

I have one of every class though, and while I am trying to plug away at Alliance rank on NB, Far Ouuut do I get bitter when I log onto Sorc, DK or Templar to play in both PVE and PVP. They're so much more fun to play.

MashmalloMan

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Rather than nerf DK, or Templars. I want the other classes to be as smooth, as synergistic, as logical with ability use choice as these two.

Very much this. A lot of the DK and Templar buffs recently came from passive quality of life and hybrid changes, which are a good thing, but in the balance department for the other classes, it's very much missed the mark.

• Stamplars can use minor Sorcery.
• Magplars can use the 6% damage passive.
• MagDKs can use minor Brutality.
• DKs had their dumb aoe fire damage and poison cost reduction passive changed to a flat 5% buff.
• Ult resource return changed from cost of ult used to ult spent.
• Both classes had their resistance passive changed to armor.

A big shift over the years happened with NB and Sorc's surviability that many people probably don't realize. We never had strong healing, but we had good hp regen which seemed to be intentional. Sorc has 10% mag, 20% hp/stam regen. NB has 15% mag, stam and hp regen. They're clearly cut from the same cloth, both rely on evasion for defence instead of raw armor or healing and both classes have similar regen modifiers.

Well... ZOS removed hp regen % modifiers from races, they toned down item sets like Trollking, they gutted Battlespirit to reduce hp regen by -50%. It's no longer an alternative way to survive, turning what was once a unique way to build a bit bulkier in Sorc/NB into a wasted passive.

Do you how much stronger DK's 12% healing received passive is compared to that? Miles ahead. Especially since character damage and health has rised, which therefor has increased the heal scaling, yet hp regen values on sets remain the same, with lesser modifiers and higher penalities.

NB and Sorc still can't really use their off stat Minor Prophecy/Savagery because ZOS didn't give us potions with hybrid buffs yet so we need to slot a passive skill like Camo Hunter which only works on 1 bar. Even if we could use it, is it the same power as minor brutality/prophecy? Not really, because building for crit damage/healing is an uphill battle with everyone having -20% crit resist at base with an additional -20% from Rallying Cry. Raw damage just scales better.

Flat value heals have also gone down in strength in comparison as health and damage has rised. There has been no compensation for NBs Siphoning Strikes or Sorc's Dark Deal and Surge. The only thing that helps them scale is crit healing and healing done. So I see a possible synergy there in that maybe Sorc and NB should rely on crit heals, but crit chance has ALSO gone down throughout the years. Medium Armor doesn't even offer it anymore.

Sorc has 6/12 passives related to sustain, leaving no space for utility, mitigation or healing passives.

NB still has a passive that only gives +8% magicka, why didn't they hybridize that? Another example of a Sorc/NB parallel of having ways to increase their max resources higher, yet again, over the years max resource building has become more irrelivant, while stacking damage (DK/Plar) continues to rise.

axi

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

Well the only game I see being played here is the one where You intentionally ignore many important details just to create context which will fit Your agenda.

You've lost minor vitality? You got minor mending
You've lost major fracture? You still have it on mark and You got minor fracture and passive penetration.
You've lost expedition on crippling grasp? If only there were other ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost minor berserk? If only there were other easy ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost major defile? Hmm, Soul Harvest tooltip must be lying then.
Path got standarized? You mean healing or damaging one because damaging one is still the strongest class ground based AoE while ritual of retribution while maybe not reciving dmg nerf had its healing portion removed.
You've lost CC because other classes have CC? That argument is actually the most silly one but it shows Your overall line of thinking that if any class will have acces to anything that is similar to some nb feature that nb have or had then suddenly in Your eyes "nb lost it".

You've lost cloak because vampires can dissapear now while sprinting? I guess You never had cloak in a first place then because people could use stealth or invisibility potions since launch. You have issues with cathing sorc? Well who would guess that can be a thing when fighting a class with defensive based around mobility.

Going by Your logic I guess everyone else lost burst heal now when nb finally got one? It's funny how You cherrypick downsides of the class, which btw every class have and You try to ignore upsides and buffs that class recived. Getting burst heal for example is a big deal for a nb and it's the biggest buff nb could get and You can really see it.

The only thing that nb truly lost is ability to not make choices because at some point class had overabundance of abilities packed with passive goodies (especially noticable on stamblade).

2022 nb slaps 2019 nb with ease through itemization changes itself. Like I already said newest addition of a burst heal is a big deal and first time since years I've seen magblade pulling 1vX in noCP Cyro effectively and consistantly even against enemies with some brain cells. Magblade can even withstand and defeat decent magDKs. Yes You can claim people capable of that are good players but how many noob mag DKs have You seen being able to do the same? Feats like that will always require decent player behind the wheel.

You don't get it. Yes I can get all those things back by sloting this and that but hey guess what? I would have to use useless skills that don't fit in pvp. I can use refreshing path to get major exp back, I can get berserk by using new ambush (which is clumsy, is the only gap closer with cast time and requires target), I can get major defile by using worse morph of ultimate and because of all changes made before to NB I cant do it because I have no room for just close range stun (I used to have but because all of my skills got ripped of secondary buffs I cant anymore).

Getting heal was a result of a fact that Cloak has so many counters that NB was forced to use resto staff or it is dead - go play one and youll see how many things breaks cloak. One of my favs is Elemental Susceptibility - every few seconds pulls you out of cloak for 60s when new status effect is applied. Oh and through many years that one heal was the only meaningfull buff to NB, all the rest was just reworking things so NB bar would be harder to manage. Moving crucial buffs to things NBs are not using to force us to use useless skills. Like soul harvest, refreshing path, mark target, ambush and many more, while DKs and Temps got their primary most used skills buffed.

It's not about that NB have no access to mentioned things, it's about where those things are placed.

Let's take DK for example.
Major breach? AoE dot used by everyone anyway - at least now second choice won't be obvious since now it is more damage vs heavy armor or more overall damage.
Major prophecy and savagery? Nighbalde doesn't even have that in it's toolkit, you can have heal or powerfull dot with that.
Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.
Snare and root immunity? I have to slot RAT for this and I have just that it's a good skill but I don't have any choice, while DK can go for a skill that gives him 50% damage reduction to almost whole magblade toolkit. At least you have choice.
Major sorcery and brutality? Don't even start it.
Major mending? I can get at best minor mending or channel resto staff heavy attack.
And maybe you want to talko about almost free to use (with 1 cost reduction glyph) heal that also snares by 70%? (which NB has bound to ULTIMATE lol!)
Should we compare ultimates?
Corrosive Armor vs Bolstering Darkness or Veil of blades? Corrosive giving almost immortality, up to 50% damage increase (depending on targets armor), dot, and resources back thanks to passives vs 10% damage reduction and 70% snare + few seconds of major resolve thanks to passives?
Ferocious Leap vs Incapacitating Strike? Almost the same cost but Ferocious deals more damage (with the same stats) is ranged, has no cast time (travel time>cast time since you have to stop everything you do and wait till it actually fires to not break it), is AoE which makes it almost impossible to dodge have unbreakable CC thanks to knockback bug and grands you huge shield. Incap single target that is dodged 60-80% of a time, that deals less damage. It grants you 20% more damage (if you manage to land it) and passively increases your crit chance by around 2% and gives sustain.

Oh I see the game of choosing arguments to fit the agenda and ignoring reality continues. You can slot race against time to get major expedition and camo hunter to get berserk. Both are very good and commonly used abilities. It's not like You're being locked to use just class tools and that if You need to look usefull tool outside of the class kit then suddenly a class is weak. Yes they're not nb specific tool but same goes for many tools that make other classes including DK strong atm (vampire, charged trait, radiating regen etc). As long as something empowers specific class kit it still counts towards being good for a specific class. As for defile goes like I said earlier it's one of those places where You need to make a choice which is fine, having everything delivered passively was a bad game design and old incap was a bad game design combining big dmg, stun, 20% more dmg debuff and defile. You complain so much about dk but You wont find many abilities on DK kit that share multiple usages and grant lots of buffs and debuffs passively like some of the nb abilities used to do.

You are adding Your own story to why nb got burst heal, once again for it to fit Your agenda. You can read developer comment as of why this change was made instead of creating Your own imaginary stories. In short they did it because ability was not used much due to pure health cost and lack of selfhealing so they wanted to make it more desirable. Nothing to do with cloak. Get real, don't make up Your own stories to support Your arguments. As for cloak many nbs atm plays with healing morph of it because this combined with new burst heal can make You really tanky and allows to survive heavy beating for a long time. Magblade atm can literally be a brawler and can do it pretty nice. I've tried it and I was positively suprised by the amount of tankiness I had, in some situations 1vX was easier than on DK. Taking away certain buffs and debuffs from a nb or moving them somwhere else was a good decision. It's kinda silly for 2-3 abilities in class kit to give the same thing and for certain abilities to have so many functions at once that other classes needed to slot like 6-7 abilities to get what nb was getting with 2-3 skills.

As I said You still have acces to mentioned things outside of nb kit if You dont like where class itself have them and most of the time these abilities are really good replacement.

Major breach. 50/50 when it comes to reliability in PvP on DK. It may be AoE but the way how cone functions sometimes makes it worse then single target abilities especially in Cyro. Is it bad though? No., but it have its downsides and it's not like You need for major breach to be an AoE to be good. Single target breach with reliable application method very often can be better than half reliable meele cone.

Major peorhecy/savagey. Camo hunter exist? And nb can also add minor savagery on top of that passively. Camo hunter is ability that fits nb playstyle perfectly anyway.

Major resolve. You are really trying to make a fact that nb gets it passively a downside? Your main offense and defense are coming from shadow tree if built properly and people are getting 7-10 seconds easily because some heavy armor pieces will be used. It's childsplay to keep it up passively. Also in full heavy armor You get over 16 seconds not 10, to get it over 10 sec You need 3 heavy which isn't unusual these days.

That immobilize/snare immunity wings are "so good" that You see more nbs using phantasmal escape than dks using protecting plate. In fact You will see more dks using RAT or mist than protecting plate. Seriously some of Your arguments when You try really hard to make some dk tool to look strong are silly and quite frankly if I wanted I could make same line of argumentation where I will blindly point out every nb ability as OP.

Major sorcery/brutality. It's been a while since I've seen decent non heavy attack DK using molten weapons. Most will either use potions or other ability/set to get that because molten weapons is expensive ability that is hard to find spot for since it's just that buff and dk do not have the pleasure of having lots of flex spots. Funnily enough lately I've seen more nbs using sap essence than DKs using molten weapons so same story as with wings, fact that DK have something doesnt make it strong.

Major mending. When was the last time You've seen mag dk using fragmented shield? And what do You mean You can get "at best" minor mending? You get minor mending passively while healing, for a dk to get major mending he needs to actively slot and use ability that gives just that buff which is additional expensive skill cast. Sounds pretty balanced.

Corrosive is a strong ultimate I will agree here but saying is gives almost immortality is overstatement same goes for "up to 50% damage increase". Please do Your math or research before You comment. Not only this is not how dmg calculations formula goes but You also miss the fact it only buffs direct dmg and that not everyone runs with capped resistances. Also I wouldnt compare it to veil of blades but rather to soul tether which is really strong ultimate in nb kit giving lots of AoE dmg , decent heal and stun.

Ferrocious leap is also pretty strong ultimate but downplaying incap for leap to look stronger is once again silly move. That travel time vs cast time comparision made me giggle tbh. Just dont mash buttons like crazy and You will be fine? And to be honest right now in many open world situations soul tether rivals leap when it comes to effectivness.

Personally I do agree that mag DK is strong choice, stronger than magblade in PvP atm but claiming it's god tier(which You've said if i remember correctly) is a big sign that someone allows emotions to blur the judgement. Not only Your judgment seems to be blurred but You are trying to prove Your point by cherrypicking arguments to fit Your agenda completly missing nb strong sides and unique features picturing it as a bunch of downsides when on the other hand trying to make every DK tool even not so great to look OP. Current strenght of DK is not leaving everyone else behind like it was with lets say necro or warden when these classes were dominating. Only tiny percentage of DK players will be real pain most will die easily or with moderate ease because as strong as it is this class is not a free carry like warden was in the past and overall balance right now is way better with many other setups still having strong tools in their kits, to deal even with current top dogs.

You have some valid points, but once again you miss the bigger picture I've tried to show you, DKs active and passive skills allow him to synergize everything very well giving him much flexibility between sustain, offense and defense. Overall DK arsenal almost in every aspect is slightly better than not only NB but also other classes which leads in the end to big advantage. We can argue which skill has more utility or which skill is better etc. etc. but in the end it's the total amount of damage, healing, resistances and sustain is what matters and DK thanks to complexed arsenal is OP right now. That's not my agenda, just read the thread. There is in here a lot of way more experienced players than me, like Decimus, Dracane or Master_Kas. These all are some of the best PvP players ESO ever had and they say with one voice - DK is OP.

What You are seem to be missing when it comes to the bigger picture is that this synergy You are talking about relies heavily on tools from outside of a DK class. DK arsenal is not even complete tbh, class still lacks few features like for example any form of reliable gap closer(leap isn't reliable gap closer since it's an ultimate and chain is a joke) or any form of finishing an enemy that wouldnt be just a burst ability used as finisher. I am not saying DK desperately needs those I am just stating what this class lacks that others have.

That sustain, defense and offense You are talking about is based on 2 pillars , which are charged trait and vampire. I can guarantee You that changing charged from 480% do lets say 320% would already tone down DK strenght. Charged on its own provides lots of damage and sustain into the DK toolkit and because of that also more defense, vampire just tops that off but that happens for almost every class. People claiming that mag DK is OP on its own are really sleeping on fact how greatly charged empowers the class atm. Lets assume You will use posion and absorb stamina glyph on weapons, that combined with the fact You will have sources of magic (volatile armor) and flame(almost everything else) dmg will allow You to keep up : burning status effect providing decent dmg and magicka sustain (which bypasses mist drawback btw), posioned status effect providing decent dmg and stamina sustain , overcharged status effect providing minor magickasteal which means more sustain (also bypasses mist drawbacks) and sundered status effect (absorb stamina glyph deals physical dmg) with high uptime meaning minor breach aka 3k pen for free all of that just with 1 weapon trait.

Yes DK have few decent abilities in his class kit but these abilities wouldn't perform so well if not supported by mentioned above things.

When it comes to relying on opinion of mentioned by You trio I really dont find that as a valid argument. Some of the mentioned are simply biased and some are out of touch with current state of the game.

And now we can agree. This is one of those synergies that make DK so strong. Now ask your self. How many other classes use charged trait in PvP? So is it this trait so OP it needs a nerf or is it DK? If there are better options than this trait for other classes then if ZOS will nerf it, then certainly nobody will use it, even DK'S.

Listen, my opinion is JUST opinion, your opinion is JUST opinion, we are not objective. But as you noticed on your own, some things can make DK very strong, we can argue is this fault of DK arsenal or just good synergy of DK with things available for everyone. I don't really care how will it be done, if ZOS decides to give other classes buffs that will allow them to keep up with DK's then I am happy.

All I want is to lose to only better players, not to easier class. Be cause when I look at my loses in 1v1 in Cyro from last month 95% (totally estimated value) of those would be DK's or in much lesser amount templars.

How many other classes can incorporate 3 different types of dmg into their kit without any sacrifices? This trait needs a nerf, it was overbuffed by a lot, DK just benefits the most of it because DK always had better synergy with two particular status effects (burning and poisoned) and when ZoS buffed charged that synergy just got empowered too much.

Now ask Yourself do You want to rather nerf a unique DK feature that was there for years and not causing any issues or a trait that was heavily buffed lately and suprisingly all DKs started to run with it and since then DK started to be viewed as the strongest PvP class? Have You ever heared complaint before charged buff about posioned or burning status effect dealing too much dmg or restoring too much resources on a DK? Yes combustion passive got buffed to give 1k resources back but now it have a cooldown and belive me with charged having 480% old combustion restoring 500 resources without cooldown would be similarly strong or maybe even stronger for main resource.

When it comes to using charged on different setups I actually tried it on werewolf and it was really potent. From what i've noticed for this trait to be strong in PvP You need for a setup to have easy, reliable and consistant acces to atleast 3 different dmg types at base. For DK it can be 2 because dk had stronger synergy with two status effects making these 2 as strong as 3 on other setups. On werewolf for example You have acces to bleed (status effect applies DoT and minor mangle) , physical (status effect applies minor fracture) and disease (status effect applies minor defile). Now You just need to slap shock and posion/flame enchant on top of it to add minor vulnerability and poison/flame DoT and You got Yourself 6 additional strong effects passively. Fun fact claws very often apply diseased status effect with initial hit so You can get major and minor defile together.

It's also not like ZoS can't do anything about charged itself to make it still viable for everyone after nerfing the percentage value. They could for example nerf percentage value but add additional feature where charged would increase duration of status effects by X seconds or increase status effects strenght by X percent. It would instantly find lots of use in both PvP and PvE especially with that second option.

Saying it's DK fault that charged is overperforming reminds me the times when heavy attack meta was a thing in PvE because of old off balance and many people wanted for molten armanents to be nerfed despite the fact sorcs were pulling DPS close to DKs so if armanents would be nerfed it still wouldnt solve the issue. It's always easy to blame top dog rather than flawed game design but nerfing that top dog directly will not always solve the issue. Oh and btw I think that new set that is coming with high isle increasing status effects duration by 16 seconds will bring some nice memes into the game.

Dracane

axi wrote: »

What DK community?I guess You assume that this was all part of the plan to not play on the class for couple of years just to decive ZoS into thinking mag Dk is underperforming so they would buff DK after that time.

This isn't quite what I meant. I refered to numerous posts made on the forums over the years by said community asking for buffs and telling fabled tales of the precarious situation Dragonknight is allegedly in. This is where the deception lies in my opinion.

As far as memory served, these popped up in every single PTS patch prior to the present one.

Ragnaroek93

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Rather than nerf DK, or Templars. I want the other classes to be as smooth, as synergistic, as logical with ability use choice as these two.

Pretty much everybody prefers that but people lose hope when you look at what other classes get. They don't have a complete or working toolkit and ZOS doesn't understand why they perform far worse than dk and templar. They could give other classes better synergies with status effects as well for example (Nb being themed around disease, sorc around shock and Warden around ice) but all they do is buffing skills which nobody uses which doesn't result in meaingful buffs. Also can you imagine the forum outrage when sorc and nb would get buffed for example?

Mr_Stach

This is how it feels for a lot of Wardens and probably other classes too.

Mr_Stach

Oh hey. DK got Nerfed.

Morvan

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Oh hey. DK got Nerfed.

thank god

The3sFinest

I am surprised to see magdks get another nerf after they finally got their well deserved buffs, but templars remain untouched for another year? Unbelievable...

TPishek

That was a bit much.

Mr_Stach

You should know by now, Zos tweaks with a sledgehammer

Sandman929

In typical ZOS fashion, the change made to help DK sustain has been removed in such a way that their sustain is now worse than before it got fixed initially.

robpr

Everyone and their grandmas told ZoS that the problem was Charged trait, but of course they had to do sledgehammer approach and increase the Combustion cd to 3s from 0.5s. So from abundance of sustain now go to no sustain as we had with 2s cd 500 return old Combustion.

Well, "I got killed by class <X>, please nerf" sayers got what they wanted.

Can we get just flat recovery for X seconds when proccing Burning/Poisoned? I'm tired of this passive changing every patch as everyone is clueless what to do with it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

In typical ZOS fashion, the change made to help DK sustain has been removed in such a way that their sustain is now worse than before it got fixed initially.

Good because if the DK class is going to have as much Tankiness and Damage as it does then it should only beable to sustain that power for a short time.

Cast_El

The3sFinest wrote: »

I am surprised to see magdks get another nerf after they finally got their well deserved buffs, but templars remain untouched for another year? Unbelievable...

They got nerf living dark :2k healing

React

The sustain nerf is fine, and needed. Currentley playing my dK on live with 1 infused reduce cost and 0 sustain ANYWHERE else in my build. This change should make it so that dks at least need to sacrifice something to be able to sustain.

MashmalloMan

robpr wrote: »

Everyone and their grandmas told ZoS that the problem was Charged trait, but of course they had to do sledgehammer approach and increase the Combustion cd to 3s from 0.5s. So from abundance of sustain now go to no sustain as we had with 2s cd 500 return old Combustion.

Well, "I got killed by class <X>, please nerf" sayers got what they wanted.

Can we get just flat recovery for X seconds when proccing Burning/Poisoned? I'm tired of this passive changing every patch as everyone is clueless what to do with it.

No one asked them to nerf it to 3 seconds, it's definitely a bit heavy handed, but charged on any other build seems to be working as intended so I wouldn't say thats the problem, it WAS the cooldown interacting with the Charged changes that made it too powerful as they stated. Instead of nerfing everyone, they nerfed the actual issue. That makes sense.

I think a 2s cooldown with the same power or keeping the 0.5s in favour of a nerf to the power of the return would of made more sense. If they kept it as a low cooldown, it would of been more consistent and allowed for more build versatility forcing DK's to build into status effect application.

Now.. proccing it every 3s is going to be largely an afterthought, similar to how Heavy Armor just passively returns mag/stam for being hit every 4s.

It's still very good considering no class has that much resource return that can work through block built into a passive. You mention "now go to no sustain as we had with 2s cd 500 return old Combustion". Well.. no, you're still in a better place than that point because as you put it, it was only 500, but now it's 1k, charge was a lot weaker back then, and Battle Roar now returns resources based on ult spent instead of the cost of the ult.

I'm surprised they hit the major issues that made it OP so fast, but I agree it was a bit heavy handed on the Combustion side. Maybe a small buff to Battle Roar would bring them back to the reliance on the "Turn and Burn" playstyle that made DK's so unique if this change was too much. Only time will tell.

propertyOfUndefined

I'm no expert, but these recent changes look good to me. Burst damage can still be crazy high, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

Dracane

What a delicious monday evening. Well earned and well executed. Combustion will now grant up to 20k magicka or stamina per minute rather than 120k! This is very much in line with similar sustain passives other classes have.

Sad that their damage pressure will remain astronomical in pvp.

MashmalloMan

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I'm no expert, but these recent changes look good to me. Burst damage can still be crazy high, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

I'd love to see some opinions from the DK high MMR pvp mains. Despite the nerfs, it seems to look like they're in a better place than back before the Combustion, Battle Roar, Hybrid and Charged changes that made them so OP. I know a lot of DK mains on live that even agreed is was braindead easy lately.

Are the changes justified or too heavy handed? It's hard to say when you see your own class nerfed.

I really like the mentality that DK should be more about "Turn and Burn" from ults, rather than what they've been recently which is constant and unrelenting pressure. It's always was made old 1vX DK vids so fun to watch for me, they're on the brink of losing everything, then BAM, leap or Corrosive and back to full.

MashmalloMan

Dracane wrote: »

What a delicious monday evening. Well earned and well executed. Combustion will now grant up to 20k magicka or stamina per second rather than 120k! This is very much in line with similar sustain passives other classes have.

Sad that their damage pressure will remain astronomical in pvp.

It's a matter of cost vs opportunity, with sustain being more difficult to achieve, they may have to make more sacrifices to achieve the sustain they like, thus lowering some of their stat investment into damage or mitigation in some shape or form.

Counter play is important, at least we know now when fighting a DK that the DK's sustain is mostly coming from an Ult they're waiting to use instead of a never ending barrage, they may have to backpeddle more, LOS more, etc. They were 1v1 masters.

Changing the return on the passive to a max of 2k a second to an average of 333 a second is a big change that will force them to update their builds.

olsborg

Some well deserved nerfs for sure, just ....molten whip and corrosive armor will still be hitting ppl too hard imo.

Mr_Stach

I mean Molten Whip could be adjusted pretty easy just by adjusting the values of Seething Fury. They could lower the percentage each stack does while increasing the number of stacks so it takes longer to get to that big chunky whip.

Like maybe 5 stacks, for 20% Each. And adjust the Weapon/Spell Damage buff to 45.

Anywho, that's my thoughts

Cuddlypuff

Oh thank god the nerfs didn't touch my stam DK

Max weapon dmg mag DK is in the dumpster now though.

Mr_Stach

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Oh thank god the nerfs didn't touch my stam DK

Max weapon dmg mag DK is in the dumpster now though.

yet

GetAgrippa

Ah, the ol' sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. Gotta love it.