So Where Are The mDK Nerfs?

Mayrael

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

This is then a great example of what I'm talking about with DK and Templar benefitting from the current ratio of Healing-Damage in Battlespirit.

Why were StamBlade and MagSorc so strong and popular during the first patch of No Proc Greyhost? Well part of it was the gear selection, some of those stats sets were meta on those classes even with procs available, but I think more so it was because we just got the 1k additional damage, the new Champion system didn't have some of the damage reduction stars, and the Damage Reduction in Battlespirit was less. It had nothing to do with the state of the class skills themselves compared to other patches. Does that sound right to you @Mayrael ? If StamBlade wasn't strong on your server in the early weeks of No Proc Cyro then never mind, we're playing in very different environments.

All damage is equally modified by these things, of course, but Ranged Crit can reach a level where players die before they can react or outheal - it's not quite the same with DK's DoTs, again without any unique bonus to Crit behind them. Again, DK has a unique Healing Received modifier, so if Heals are weak, the passive is weak, if Heals are strong, the passive is strong.

In part, yes. DK and Templar benefit the most from the current iteration because everything in their passive and active toolkit synergizes great with each other, from sustain through offense to defense. If we stopped there the situation would be bearable. Because let's say DK and templar would be very strong classes but by no means OP.

However, certain skills and passives of DK and Templar go beyond standardization that other classes have not escaped. For some reason all the recent DLCs have given the most attention to DK and Templar leaving the other classes with only bug fixes.

This has unfortunately led to a significant disparity in strength and either the other classes will be buffed to the level of DK (with serious buffs and not some pseudo-balancing of skils that nobody uses anyway) or unfortunately both of these classes will experience the fate of NB and will be heavily nerfed in the future.

To keep PvP healthy it would be much better to buff all other classes. The worrying thing is that ZOS doesn't take the matter seriously and we are in for THE YEAR of DK and Templar which will not be good for the game and its population.

Urzigurumash

Mayrael wrote: »

For some reason all the recent DLCs have given the most attention to DK and Templar leaving the other classes with only bug fixes.

Of course I agree about the needed balance adjustments. But it's no mystery why DK was buffed when others were not - all time lowest VMA scores, all time lowest representation on the Cyrodiil leaderboards, probably all time lowest AP generated of the 4 base game classes, etc etc. At least on Xbox NA, we never had the 2014 Batswarm DK. Definitely 100% by far MagDK was the least popular class on my server for the first run of No Proc Cyro, although really MagNB may have been less popular than StamDK, they were both pretty rare. Of course MagNB had been perma-Emp for years prior with the occasional Necro challenger. Yes I'm aware MagNB's success was strictly the result of VD+Zergs, but point still stands - worth noting here that Plar and DK get a little more out of Markyn and Magma than anybody else with their Minor buffs. So maybe that Whispers of Mora mythic will give a little something to classes with unique Crit bonuses - of course that includes Plar..

Anyhow DK needed buffs, it got them, time to tone them down. How to tone it down should be the focus of discussions, the simple fact that the class is overtuned should be aware to all by now.

Of course many of those "all time lowest scores" were appropriate because we were the Tank class, but that's another discussion and I've already written volumes of posts on this subject with 0 agrees so I'll stop here.

Mr_Stach

I mean DK was originally designed as THE Tank Class from the ground up, so it focused a lot of Tanking stuff and still does, but now it has all that CC, Tankiness, Survival..... And has the Damage to Pump.

I agree that DK needed to be buffed, but Zos just pumped it full of Steroids and called it good.

BlossomDead

To be fair I like where DK is now in PvE. It allows me to do content that other classes would struggle with more and it actually makes it enjoyable. The major annoyance is in PvP who, along the templar, they seem to be a bit overtuned on everything: speed, healing, cc, damage, resistance, dots, burst, etc.

Maybe some adjustments could be made for those two classes for PvP only, it's fun to be able to solo content effectively, since, let's be honest, if you don't have a group of friends to play with, it is very hard to bunch up with other people considering our own individual schedules.

Mr_Stach

Or Zos will just pump every class with Steroids.

olsborg

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Or Zos will just pump every class with Steroids.

Better all classes then just the one.

axi

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

[snip]

You've lost minor vitality? You got minor mending
You've lost major fracture? You still have it on mark and You got minor fracture and passive penetration.
You've lost expedition on crippling grasp? If only there were other ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost minor berserk? If only there were other easy ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost major defile? Hmm, Soul Harvest tooltip must be lying then.
Path got standarized? You mean healing or damaging one because damaging one is still the strongest class ground based AoE while ritual of retribution while maybe not reciving dmg nerf had its healing portion removed.
You've lost CC because other classes have CC? That argument is actually the most silly one but it shows Your overall line of thinking that if any class will have acces to anything that is similar to some nb feature that nb have or had then suddenly in Your eyes "nb lost it".

You've lost cloak because vampires can dissapear now while sprinting? I guess You never had cloak in a first place then because people could use stealth or invisibility potions since launch. You have issues with cathing sorc? Well who would guess that can be a thing when fighting a class with defensive based around mobility.

Going by Your logic I guess everyone else lost burst heal now when nb finally got one? It's funny how You cherrypick downsides of the class, which btw every class have and You try to ignore upsides and buffs that class recived. Getting burst heal for example is a big deal for a nb and it's the biggest buff nb could get and You can really see it.

The only thing that nb truly lost is ability to not make choices because at some point class had overabundance of abilities packed with passive goodies (especially noticable on stamblade).

2022 nb slaps 2019 nb with ease through itemization changes itself. Like I already said newest addition of a burst heal is a big deal and first time since years I've seen magblade pulling 1vX in noCP Cyro effectively and consistantly even against enemies with some brain cells. Magblade can even withstand and defeat decent magDKs. Yes You can claim people capable of that are good players but how many noob mag DKs have You seen being able to do the same? Feats like that will always require decent player behind the wheel.

[edited for baiting]

Thecompton73

I don't mind at all the damage that DK and Templar have right now. I'd be more than happy if every class had a TTK that matched them. However if you bring everyone's healing and mitigation up to the level of those classes it would make for the most boring meta of all time where it's almost impossible to kill anyone unless they're outnumbered 5v1 at least.
I swear 6/10 players I face off against in Cyro are DK's and 3/10 are Templars, because the healing on those classes is so overtuned right now it gives bad and mediorce players a huge margin for error to not get killed.
After popping a full 500 Balorghs my Snb has 26K pen and 7.2 weapon damage for poison/disease and I can layer double dot damage health poison, poison injection dot, poison status dot+minor defile from lethal arrow, acid spray dot, the Plaguebreak Dot, and even the massive DOT from Toxic Barrage and most Dk's and Templars easily heal through all that, plus the damage 2-3 other players are putting on them by keeping up a couple of HOT's and their buffs.
It takes way too long as far as I"m concerned but Templars do eventually run out of resources if they get continuous pressure and can't disengage to recover. DK's are another level of OP survivability because they also have infinite resource recovery through passives so they can take sustained pressure indefinitely.

olsborg

Thecompton73 wrote: »

I swear 6/10 players I face off against in Cyro are DK's and 3/10 are Templars, because the healing on those classes is so overtuned right now it gives bad and mediorce players a huge margin for error to not get killed.

Yup, agreed. Also a problem with cyrodiil atm is all the rapid and radiating regens from restostaff going around, too.much.healing.everywhere. xheal

Mayrael

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

[snip]

You've lost minor vitality? You got minor mending
You've lost major fracture? You still have it on mark and You got minor fracture and passive penetration.
You've lost expedition on crippling grasp? If only there were other ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost minor berserk? If only there were other easy ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost major defile? Hmm, Soul Harvest tooltip must be lying then.
Path got standarized? You mean healing or damaging one because damaging one is still the strongest class ground based AoE while ritual of retribution while maybe not reciving dmg nerf had its healing portion removed.
You've lost CC because other classes have CC? That argument is actually the most silly one but it shows Your overall line of thinking that if any class will have acces to anything that is similar to some nb feature that nb have or had then suddenly in Your eyes "nb lost it".

You've lost cloak because vampires can dissapear now while sprinting? I guess You never had cloak in a first place then because people could use stealth or invisibility potions since launch. You have issues with cathing sorc? Well who would guess that can be a thing when fighting a class with defensive based around mobility.

Going by Your logic I guess everyone else lost burst heal now when nb finally got one? It's funny how You cherrypick downsides of the class, which btw every class have and You try to ignore upsides and buffs that class recived. Getting burst heal for example is a big deal for a nb and it's the biggest buff nb could get and You can really see it.

The only thing that nb truly lost is ability to not make choices because at some point class had overabundance of abilities packed with passive goodies (especially noticable on stamblade).

2022 nb slaps 2019 nb with ease through itemization changes itself. Like I already said newest addition of a burst heal is a big deal and first time since years I've seen magblade pulling 1vX in noCP Cyro effectively and consistantly even against enemies with some brain cells. Magblade can even withstand and defeat decent magDKs. Yes You can claim people capable of that are good players but how many noob mag DKs have You seen being able to do the same? Feats like that will always require decent player behind the wheel.

You don't get it. Yes I can get all those things back by sloting this and that but hey guess what? I would have to use useless skills that don't fit in pvp. I can use refreshing path to get major exp back, I can get berserk by using new ambush (which is clumsy, is the only gap closer with cast time and requires target), I can get major defile by using worse morph of ultimate and because of all changes made before to NB I cant do it because I have no room for just close range stun (I used to have but because all of my skills got ripped of secondary buffs I cant anymore).

Getting heal was a result of a fact that Cloak has so many counters that NB was forced to use resto staff or it is dead - go play one and youll see how many things breaks cloak. One of my favs is Elemental Susceptibility - every few seconds pulls you out of cloak for 60s when new status effect is applied. Oh and through many years that one heal was the only meaningfull buff to NB, all the rest was just reworking things so NB bar would be harder to manage. Moving crucial buffs to things NBs are not using to force us to use useless skills. Like soul harvest, refreshing path, mark target, ambush and many more, while DKs and Temps got their primary most used skills buffed.

It's not about that NB have no access to mentioned things, it's about where those things are placed.

Let's take DK for example.
Major breach? AoE dot used by everyone anyway - at least now second choice won't be obvious since now it is more damage vs heavy armor or more overall damage.
Major prophecy and savagery? Nighbalde doesn't even have that in it's toolkit, you can have heal or powerfull dot with that.
Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.
Snare and root immunity? I have to slot RAT for this and I have just that it's a good skill but I don't have any choice, while DK can go for a skill that gives him 50% damage reduction to almost whole magblade toolkit. At least you have choice.
Major sorcery and brutality? Don't even start it.
Major mending? I can get at best minor mending or channel resto staff heavy attack.
And maybe you want to talko about almost free to use (with 1 cost reduction glyph) heal that also snares by 70%? (which NB has bound to ULTIMATE lol!)
Should we compare ultimates?
Corrosive Armor vs Bolstering Darkness or Veil of blades? Corrosive giving almost immortality, up to 50% damage increase (depending on targets armor), dot, and resources back thanks to passives vs 10% damage reduction and 70% snare + few seconds of major resolve thanks to passives?
Ferocious Leap vs Incapacitating Strike? Almost the same cost but Ferocious deals more damage (with the same stats) is ranged, has no cast time (travel time>cast time since you have to stop everything you do and wait till it actually fires to not break it), is AoE which makes it almost impossible to dodge have unbreakable CC thanks to knockback bug and grands you huge shield. Incap single target that is dodged 60-80% of a time, that deals less damage. It grants you 20% more damage (if you manage to land it) and passively increases your crit chance by around 2% and gives sustain.

[edited to remove quote]

Ragnaroek93

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Doesn't really matter anymore what happened in 2015. I agree that mdk was overnerfed back then but recently dk and templar are the only two classes who got cool, fun and powerful stuff. When you compare what templar and dk got with what nb and warden gets... just wow. Nobody wants to use Ambush, it's a bad skill, it has a cast time, you can't block while using it and it often doesn't work. And yet it gets so overloaded that Nbs will have to use it. They got feedback regarding it. They ignored it. Meanwhile templars whine about their bubble and that broken skill gets a compensation buff immediately. The Dk "nerf" isn't even close to what they gained by the buffs from the last patch.

I heavily disagree with Nb being better than it used to be. The class was able to hit Incap after a cc which it doesn't anymore because of the cast time. You had a strong dot execute and a meele execute. You did apply your dot, stun your opponent, use Incap and your target was in execute range with an execute dot ticking through block and dodge while being healdebuffed. None of that works anymore. Now all your damage will be negated by block and dodge, if you apply your dmg or not isn't in your control, it depends on your opponent making an mistake. Sure they can hurt you a lot (especially with Calurion which is an issue for itself and should get tuned down as well) but it's also pretty easy to avoid that and they don't have much outside of that. Warden has similar problems.

I've played Dk and Nb last patch and can guarantee you that Dk is miles ahead of my Nb (it even got buffed while Nb got nerfed indirectly by Rallying Cry lol...). A friend also swapped from sorc to templar and it's totally ridiculous how much stronger dk + temp was than sorc + nb. Playing Dk reminded me of how it felt to have damage in this tank circus with far too high time to kill. I'd actually prefer buffing the other classes to have similar dmg and also counters against block, dodge and healing but they need a lot more than some stupid northern storm or ambush buffs.

Lazuli

Agreed, they've become insufferable.

Urzigurumash

Mayrael wrote: »

Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.

Volatile Armor no longer decloaks actually, I thought it was a good change then and I still do, it was way too easy to catch an NB. I guess no AoE DoTs decloak, only Direct Damage AoE, so Noxious works but it's not 360 like Volatile.

Otherwise I agree with your assessment, I think NB needs more burst. A few years ago solo StamNBs were a threat even in high MMR BGs by hanging around the perimeter. That's distinctly a feature of lower MMR BGs now, in my experience.

I don't know the class well but I think it could use more Crit Chance or something. I don't know if that Whispers of Mora mythic will be it, I guess it's about not even 3 single Monster pieces worth of stats, for most of us using Markyn at 2 stacks it's about 4 single monster pieces worth of stats. But maybe it will help?

Mayrael

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.

Volatile Armor no longer decloaks actually, I thought it was a good change then and I still do, it was way too easy to catch an NB. I guess no AoE DoTs decloak, only Direct Damage AoE, so Noxious works but it's not 360 like Volatile.

Otherwise I agree with your assessment, I think NB needs more burst. A few years ago solo StamNBs were a threat even in high MMR BGs by hanging around the perimeter. That's distinctly a feature of lower MMR BGs now, in my experience.

I don't know the class well but I think it could use more Crit Chance or something. I don't know if that Whispers of Mora mythic will be it, I guess it's about not even 3 single Monster pieces worth of stats, for most of us using Markyn at 2 stacks it's about 4 single monster pieces worth of stats. But maybe it will help?

The dot and "returned" damage doesn't, but initial hit does as it's counted as direct damage AoE (tested, it works), it's not as useful as Radiant Magelight but it works, DK can ignore Mage Light and go for Flames of Oblivion instead - this is how good synergy works. You have multi task skills that allow you to build more stat dense toon.

Not to mention the bug/feature (I don't know what to call it, since ZOS has never officially commented on it) that allows you to see people in invisibility without any detection tools. How? This was introduced with the overhaul of the armor skill lines. Somehow now the passive detection radius and penalty affect invisibility the same as stealth, meaning that if you have an increased detection radius or a hiding enemy is wearing Heavy Armor, you can see them through invisibility without any additional steps. The larger your detection radius and the more penalty the hiding enemy has, the detection radius increases, leading to a situation where you can see invisible enemies from more than 10 meters away. This is another "cool" feature of the cloak - it's currently just a tool not to get into a fight, because when it comes down to it, it's almost useless given the number of counters available.

WoppaBoem

Lazuli wrote: »

Agreed, they've become insufferable.

happens with all meta's to solve this jump on the bandwagon and roll a templar or DK OR adjust your favorite class so It can survive and work in the current meta.

JoSePHRiNG

I think the core problem lies within both DK and Templar class design.
Sure there are over-performing it seems(I don't do PVP so take it for its worth) but I don't think they necessarily need "Nerfs" they need "adjustments", classes themselves made for healing and dealing melee damage rather than ranged damage as opposed to NB and Sorc but they are also good at sustained fights rather than burst damage like Warden and Necro.

So these classes' play style needs to change or they need to get fresh abilities to push the player base to play differently.
Nerfing won't solve the problem of these classes, would only cause other classes to shine and we would be in the same place here again but this time for different classes.

Just take what makes them so strong and put it somewhere in their abilities rather than nerfing the OP abilities. There are plenty of skills that are not used.
Changing these unused abilities would also create a new playstyle for players.

Master_Kas

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

The cast times on Soul Shred and Death Stroke (+ morphs) need to go. Even worse that there's a casttime on soul siphon morph.

Miss the old veil of blades and invis batswarm x(

Dracane

I believe the DK community has done a great job at misleading Zenimax for years. Every PTS, there were cries for buffs to Dk and ZoS granted them and this was mirrored by a lack of complains and calls for nerfs by the rest of the community. DKs have never been weak or bad in any content and yet still got buffed every single patch.

Sorcerer, Templar Nightblade; they had plenty of calls for nerfs from the community and ZoS granted.
This is why I think DK ended up as it is now: A greedy DK community that had every wish granted even though the class was great and pretty OP years ago.

The deception is especially apparent when it comes to the topic of healing. It was always complained how underperforming Dragonblood is, but guess what, it's actually the strongest self heal in the game while Arctic Wind was the weakest, yet everyone complained about Arctic Wind and not Dragonblood. Seems nobody ever went through the effort of actually comparing classes with equalish stats. Well played DK community.

axi

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

[snip]

You've lost minor vitality? You got minor mending
You've lost major fracture? You still have it on mark and You got minor fracture and passive penetration.
You've lost expedition on crippling grasp? If only there were other ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost minor berserk? If only there were other easy ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost major defile? Hmm, Soul Harvest tooltip must be lying then.
Path got standarized? You mean healing or damaging one because damaging one is still the strongest class ground based AoE while ritual of retribution while maybe not reciving dmg nerf had its healing portion removed.
You've lost CC because other classes have CC? That argument is actually the most silly one but it shows Your overall line of thinking that if any class will have acces to anything that is similar to some nb feature that nb have or had then suddenly in Your eyes "nb lost it".

You've lost cloak because vampires can dissapear now while sprinting? I guess You never had cloak in a first place then because people could use stealth or invisibility potions since launch. You have issues with cathing sorc? Well who would guess that can be a thing when fighting a class with defensive based around mobility.

Going by Your logic I guess everyone else lost burst heal now when nb finally got one? It's funny how You cherrypick downsides of the class, which btw every class have and You try to ignore upsides and buffs that class recived. Getting burst heal for example is a big deal for a nb and it's the biggest buff nb could get and You can really see it.

The only thing that nb truly lost is ability to not make choices because at some point class had overabundance of abilities packed with passive goodies (especially noticable on stamblade).

2022 nb slaps 2019 nb with ease through itemization changes itself. Like I already said newest addition of a burst heal is a big deal and first time since years I've seen magblade pulling 1vX in noCP Cyro effectively and consistantly even against enemies with some brain cells. Magblade can even withstand and defeat decent magDKs. Yes You can claim people capable of that are good players but how many noob mag DKs have You seen being able to do the same? Feats like that will always require decent player behind the wheel.

You don't get it. Yes I can get all those things back by sloting this and that but hey guess what? I would have to use useless skills that don't fit in pvp. I can use refreshing path to get major exp back, I can get berserk by using new ambush (which is clumsy, is the only gap closer with cast time and requires target), I can get major defile by using worse morph of ultimate and because of all changes made before to NB I cant do it because I have no room for just close range stun (I used to have but because all of my skills got ripped of secondary buffs I cant anymore).

Getting heal was a result of a fact that Cloak has so many counters that NB was forced to use resto staff or it is dead - go play one and youll see how many things breaks cloak. One of my favs is Elemental Susceptibility - every few seconds pulls you out of cloak for 60s when new status effect is applied. Oh and through many years that one heal was the only meaningfull buff to NB, all the rest was just reworking things so NB bar would be harder to manage. Moving crucial buffs to things NBs are not using to force us to use useless skills. Like soul harvest, refreshing path, mark target, ambush and many more, while DKs and Temps got their primary most used skills buffed.

It's not about that NB have no access to mentioned things, it's about where those things are placed.

Let's take DK for example.
Major breach? AoE dot used by everyone anyway - at least now second choice won't be obvious since now it is more damage vs heavy armor or more overall damage.
Major prophecy and savagery? Nighbalde doesn't even have that in it's toolkit, you can have heal or powerfull dot with that.
Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.
Snare and root immunity? I have to slot RAT for this and I have just that it's a good skill but I don't have any choice, while DK can go for a skill that gives him 50% damage reduction to almost whole magblade toolkit. At least you have choice.
Major sorcery and brutality? Don't even start it.
Major mending? I can get at best minor mending or channel resto staff heavy attack.
And maybe you want to talko about almost free to use (with 1 cost reduction glyph) heal that also snares by 70%? (which NB has bound to ULTIMATE lol!)
Should we compare ultimates?
Corrosive Armor vs Bolstering Darkness or Veil of blades? Corrosive giving almost immortality, up to 50% damage increase (depending on targets armor), dot, and resources back thanks to passives vs 10% damage reduction and 70% snare + few seconds of major resolve thanks to passives?
Ferocious Leap vs Incapacitating Strike? Almost the same cost but Ferocious deals more damage (with the same stats) is ranged, has no cast time (travel time>cast time since you have to stop everything you do and wait till it actually fires to not break it), is AoE which makes it almost impossible to dodge have unbreakable CC thanks to knockback bug and grands you huge shield. Incap single target that is dodged 60-80% of a time, that deals less damage. It grants you 20% more damage (if you manage to land it) and passively increases your crit chance by around 2% and gives sustain.

[snip] You can slot race against time to get major expedition and camo hunter to get berserk. Both are very good and commonly used abilities. It's not like You're being locked to use just class tools and that if You need to look usefull tool outside of the class kit then suddenly a class is weak. Yes they're not nb specific tool but same goes for many tools that make other classes including DK strong atm (vampire, charged trait, radiating regen etc). As long as something empowers specific class kit it still counts towards being good for a specific class. When it comes to defile like I said earlier it's one of those places where You need to make a choice which is fine, having everything delivered passively was a bad game design and old incap was a bad game design combining big dmg, stun, 20% more dmg debuff and defile. You complain so much about dk but You wont find many abilities on DK kit that share multiple usages and grant lots of buffs and debuffs passively like some of the nb abilities used to do.

[snip] In short they did it because ability was not used much due to pure health cost and lack of selfhealing so they wanted to make it more desirable. Nothing to do with cloak. [snip] As for cloak many nbs atm plays with healing morph of it because this combined with new burst heal can make You really tanky and allows to survive heavy beating for a long time. Magblade atm can literally be a brawler and can do it pretty nice. I've tried it and I was positively suprised by the amount of tankiness I had, in some situations 1vX was easier than on DK. Taking away certain buffs and debuffs from a nb or moving them somwhere else was a good decision. It's kinda silly for 2-3 abilities in class kit to give the same thing and for certain abilities to have so many functions at once that other classes needed to slot like 6-7 abilities to get what nb was getting with 2-3 skills.

As I said You still have acces to mentioned things outside of nb kit if You dont like where class itself have them and most of the time these abilities are really good replacement.

Major breach. 50/50 when it comes to reliability in PvP on DK. It may be AoE but the way how cone functions sometimes makes it worse then single target abilities especially in Cyro. Is it bad though? No., but it have its downsides and it's not like You need for major breach to be an AoE to be good. Single target breach with reliable application method very often can be better than half reliable meele cone.

Major peorhecy/savagey. Camo hunter exist? And nb can also add minor savagery on top of that passively. Camo hunter is ability that fits nb playstyle perfectly anyway.

Major resolve. You are really trying to make a fact that nb gets it passively a downside? Your main offense and defense are coming from shadow tree if built properly and people are getting 7-10 seconds easily because some heavy armor pieces will be used. It's childsplay to keep it up passively. Also in full heavy armor You get over 16 seconds not 10, to get it over 10 sec You need 3 heavy which isn't unusual these days.

That immobilize/snare immunity wings are "so good" that You see more nbs using phantasmal escape than dks using protecting plate. In fact You will see more dks using RAT or mist than protecting plate. Seriously some of Your arguments when You try really hard to make some dk tool to look strong are silly and quite frankly if I wanted I could make same line of argumentation where I will blindly point out every nb ability as OP.

Major sorcery/brutality. It's been a while since I've seen decent non heavy attack DK using molten weapons. Most will either use potions or other ability/set to get that because molten weapons is expensive ability that is hard to find spot for since it's just that buff and dk do not have the pleasure of having lots of flex spots. Funnily enough lately I've seen more nbs using sap essence than DKs using molten weapons so same story as with wings, fact that DK have something doesnt make it strong.

Major mending. When was the last time You've seen mag dk using fragmented shield? And what do You mean You can get "at best" minor mending? You get minor mending passively while healing, for a dk to get major mending he needs to actively slot and use ability that gives just that buff which is additional expensive skill cast. Sounds pretty balanced.

Corrosive is a strong ultimate I will agree here but saying is gives almost immortality is overstatement same goes for "up to 50% damage increase". Please do Your math or research before You comment. Not only this is not how dmg calculations formula goes but You also miss the fact it only buffs direct dmg and that not everyone runs with capped resistances plus You will always have some base penetration so it's not like You will go from 0 to 33k+ pen when using corrosive. It's like saying merciless resolve hits for up to 20k when if fact You will see hit like that once in a thousand hits. Also I wouldnt compare corrosive to veil of blades but rather to soul tether which is really strong ultimate in nb kit giving lots of AoE dmg , decent heal and stun.

Ferrocious leap is also pretty strong ultimate but downplaying incap for leap to look stronger is once again silly move. That travel time vs cast time comparision made me giggle tbh. Just dont mash buttons like crazy and You will be fine? And to be honest right now in many open world situations soul tether rivals leap when it comes to effectivness I would say in 1vX soul tehter is better.

Personally I do agree that mag DK is strong choice, stronger than magblade in PvP atm but claiming it's god tier(which You've said if i remember correctly) is a big sign that someone allows emotions to blur the judgement. Not only Your judgment seems to be blurred but You are trying to prove Your point by cherrypicking arguments to fit Your agenda completly missing nb strong sides and unique features picturing it as a bunch of downsides when on the other hand trying to make every DK tool even not so great to look OP. Current strenght of DK is not leaving everyone else behind like it was with lets say necro or warden when these classes were dominating. Only tiny percentage of DK players will be real pain most will die easily or with moderate ease because as strong as it is this class is not a free carry like warden was in the past and overall balance right now is way better with many other setups still having strong tools in their kits, to deal even with current top dogs.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Cuddlypuff

I've come to realize that OP 1vX classes is a very healthy thing for Cyrodiil. Last few months you'd barely even see any RSS flip every hour due to having precisely 0 1vX players. As a bomber or any ulti / continuous attack dependent playstyle, this was terrible and forced people into long rides across Cyrodiil just for RSS.

Now, and especially after the lag fix, there is 1 RSS being done at almost every keep, usually by 1 or more mDKs. A quick pit stop gives you full ulti, continuous attack and the option for a deathport. mDK being melee also helps because you can get your own melee light attacks in for faster ulti generation, compared to a sorc or nb kiter.

So while mDK is completely busted in skilled 1v1, that probably affects <1% of the Cyrodiil population. I think it's role in bringing 1vXers back to restore the RSS churn cycle is more than worth it.

Melzo

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

I like everything. Nb killed the enemy in seconds, and he continues to do so, but with great difficulty. When you can't dodge or block anything. You're just meat in the slaughterhouse. You can complain that nb got nerfed. But I saw nb using invisibility with 33k hp on bg. And vseravno killed others with ease. It became more difficult for them to play, but I did not notice that they were weak. Many nb still finish bg with a score of 10-0, 15-4. NB is strong and even in this meta, players manage to one-shot players.

Baby talk. It would be better if they buffed necromancer and wardon. And then they are already fighting in close combat. Damage is not enough. Hah wizards in close combat... This was a variant of the gameplay before. And now it is a forced measure.

DK is not worth nerfing. Their resource recovery depends on their attack. Namely from status effects. Which significantly reduces the recovery of resources outside of combat. Also, their entire defense is built on restoring hp. They have no damage mitigation. Or something else. Is it worth weakening the DK or strengthening other classes ??? I am on the side of strengthening other classes. And reducing damage from 10 percent to 6. This is a crutch.

This is not a solution to the problem. And class nerfs are not a solution either. The only fix for them and all classes. This is to remove or change underused skills. The game develops and abilities become more useless and useless every year.

Foxtrot39

Need to redsign the classes itself

DK was made with the explicit intent to be basicaly a tank before any other role, templar is the same for healing so they excell in a role without even really investing anything for it

If you de-specialize them wich woudl require a rework of the class itself it could make or break the class to be balanced

StShoot

Dracane wrote: »

I believe the DK community has done a great job at misleading Zenimax for years. Every PTS, there were cries for buffs to Dk and ZoS granted them and this was mirrored by a lack of complains and calls for nerfs by the rest of the community. DKs have never been weak or bad in any content and yet still got buffed every single patch.

Sorcerer, Templar Nightblade; they had plenty of calls for nerfs from the community and ZoS granted.
This is why I think DK ended up as it is now: A greedy DK community that had every wish granted even though the class was great and pretty OP years ago.

The deception is especially apparent when it comes to the topic of healing. It was always complained how underperforming Dragonblood is, but guess what, it's actually the strongest self heal in the game while Arctic Wind was the weakest, yet everyone complained about Arctic Wind and not Dragonblood. Seems nobody ever went through the effort of actually comparing classes with equalish stats. Well played DK community.

Yeah because dks never got nerfed in the past... they are still as strong as in 2014 xDDD.
Also if you ballance classes you can not just compare a skill with another skill, healing multpliers, sustain and other healing mechanics have to be taken in consideration.

Mr_Stach

I mean Dragon Blood vs Arctic Blast is a weird comparison. Dragon Blood is based off Missing Health and Arctic/Polar is off Max Health.

Also with Dragon Blood (with green dragon blood) you get some big Buffs and activates extra Health Revovery. Arctic/Polar Wind doesn't even activate Healing Passives for Warden.

But whatevs. I'm just a Filthy Warden Main. Getting Arctic Blast reworked every patch.

Mayrael

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

Well the only game I see being played here is the one where You intentionally ignore many important details just to create context which will fit Your agenda.

You've lost minor vitality? You got minor mending
You've lost major fracture? You still have it on mark and You got minor fracture and passive penetration.
You've lost expedition on crippling grasp? If only there were other ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost minor berserk? If only there were other easy ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost major defile? Hmm, Soul Harvest tooltip must be lying then.
Path got standarized? You mean healing or damaging one because damaging one is still the strongest class ground based AoE while ritual of retribution while maybe not reciving dmg nerf had its healing portion removed.
You've lost CC because other classes have CC? That argument is actually the most silly one but it shows Your overall line of thinking that if any class will have acces to anything that is similar to some nb feature that nb have or had then suddenly in Your eyes "nb lost it".

You've lost cloak because vampires can dissapear now while sprinting? I guess You never had cloak in a first place then because people could use stealth or invisibility potions since launch. You have issues with cathing sorc? Well who would guess that can be a thing when fighting a class with defensive based around mobility.

Going by Your logic I guess everyone else lost burst heal now when nb finally got one? It's funny how You cherrypick downsides of the class, which btw every class have and You try to ignore upsides and buffs that class recived. Getting burst heal for example is a big deal for a nb and it's the biggest buff nb could get and You can really see it.

The only thing that nb truly lost is ability to not make choices because at some point class had overabundance of abilities packed with passive goodies (especially noticable on stamblade).

2022 nb slaps 2019 nb with ease through itemization changes itself. Like I already said newest addition of a burst heal is a big deal and first time since years I've seen magblade pulling 1vX in noCP Cyro effectively and consistantly even against enemies with some brain cells. Magblade can even withstand and defeat decent magDKs. Yes You can claim people capable of that are good players but how many noob mag DKs have You seen being able to do the same? Feats like that will always require decent player behind the wheel.

You don't get it. Yes I can get all those things back by sloting this and that but hey guess what? I would have to use useless skills that don't fit in pvp. I can use refreshing path to get major exp back, I can get berserk by using new ambush (which is clumsy, is the only gap closer with cast time and requires target), I can get major defile by using worse morph of ultimate and because of all changes made before to NB I cant do it because I have no room for just close range stun (I used to have but because all of my skills got ripped of secondary buffs I cant anymore).

Getting heal was a result of a fact that Cloak has so many counters that NB was forced to use resto staff or it is dead - go play one and youll see how many things breaks cloak. One of my favs is Elemental Susceptibility - every few seconds pulls you out of cloak for 60s when new status effect is applied. Oh and through many years that one heal was the only meaningfull buff to NB, all the rest was just reworking things so NB bar would be harder to manage. Moving crucial buffs to things NBs are not using to force us to use useless skills. Like soul harvest, refreshing path, mark target, ambush and many more, while DKs and Temps got their primary most used skills buffed.

It's not about that NB have no access to mentioned things, it's about where those things are placed.

Let's take DK for example.
Major breach? AoE dot used by everyone anyway - at least now second choice won't be obvious since now it is more damage vs heavy armor or more overall damage.
Major prophecy and savagery? Nighbalde doesn't even have that in it's toolkit, you can have heal or powerfull dot with that.
Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.
Snare and root immunity? I have to slot RAT for this and I have just that it's a good skill but I don't have any choice, while DK can go for a skill that gives him 50% damage reduction to almost whole magblade toolkit. At least you have choice.
Major sorcery and brutality? Don't even start it.
Major mending? I can get at best minor mending or channel resto staff heavy attack.
And maybe you want to talko about almost free to use (with 1 cost reduction glyph) heal that also snares by 70%? (which NB has bound to ULTIMATE lol!)
Should we compare ultimates?
Corrosive Armor vs Bolstering Darkness or Veil of blades? Corrosive giving almost immortality, up to 50% damage increase (depending on targets armor), dot, and resources back thanks to passives vs 10% damage reduction and 70% snare + few seconds of major resolve thanks to passives?
Ferocious Leap vs Incapacitating Strike? Almost the same cost but Ferocious deals more damage (with the same stats) is ranged, has no cast time (travel time>cast time since you have to stop everything you do and wait till it actually fires to not break it), is AoE which makes it almost impossible to dodge have unbreakable CC thanks to knockback bug and grands you huge shield. Incap single target that is dodged 60-80% of a time, that deals less damage. It grants you 20% more damage (if you manage to land it) and passively increases your crit chance by around 2% and gives sustain.

Oh I see the game of choosing arguments to fit the agenda and ignoring reality continues. You can slot race against time to get major expedition and camo hunter to get berserk. Both are very good and commonly used abilities. It's not like You're being locked to use just class tools and that if You need to look usefull tool outside of the class kit then suddenly a class is weak. Yes they're not nb specific tool but same goes for many tools that make other classes including DK strong atm (vampire, charged trait, radiating regen etc). As long as something empowers specific class kit it still counts towards being good for a specific class. As for defile goes like I said earlier it's one of those places where You need to make a choice which is fine, having everything delivered passively was a bad game design and old incap was a bad game design combining big dmg, stun, 20% more dmg debuff and defile. You complain so much about dk but You wont find many abilities on DK kit that share multiple usages and grant lots of buffs and debuffs passively like some of the nb abilities used to do.

You are adding Your own story to why nb got burst heal, once again for it to fit Your agenda. You can read developer comment as of why this change was made instead of creating Your own imaginary stories. In short they did it because ability was not used much due to pure health cost and lack of selfhealing so they wanted to make it more desirable. Nothing to do with cloak. Get real, don't make up Your own stories to support Your arguments. As for cloak many nbs atm plays with healing morph of it because this combined with new burst heal can make You really tanky and allows to survive heavy beating for a long time. Magblade atm can literally be a brawler and can do it pretty nice. I've tried it and I was positively suprised by the amount of tankiness I had, in some situations 1vX was easier than on DK. Taking away certain buffs and debuffs from a nb or moving them somwhere else was a good decision. It's kinda silly for 2-3 abilities in class kit to give the same thing and for certain abilities to have so many functions at once that other classes needed to slot like 6-7 abilities to get what nb was getting with 2-3 skills.

As I said You still have acces to mentioned things outside of nb kit if You dont like where class itself have them and most of the time these abilities are really good replacement.

Major breach. 50/50 when it comes to reliability in PvP on DK. It may be AoE but the way how cone functions sometimes makes it worse then single target abilities especially in Cyro. Is it bad though? No., but it have its downsides and it's not like You need for major breach to be an AoE to be good. Single target breach with reliable application method very often can be better than half reliable meele cone.

Major peorhecy/savagey. Camo hunter exist? And nb can also add minor savagery on top of that passively. Camo hunter is ability that fits nb playstyle perfectly anyway.

Major resolve. You are really trying to make a fact that nb gets it passively a downside? Your main offense and defense are coming from shadow tree if built properly and people are getting 7-10 seconds easily because some heavy armor pieces will be used. It's childsplay to keep it up passively. Also in full heavy armor You get over 16 seconds not 10, to get it over 10 sec You need 3 heavy which isn't unusual these days.

That immobilize/snare immunity wings are "so good" that You see more nbs using phantasmal escape than dks using protecting plate. In fact You will see more dks using RAT or mist than protecting plate. Seriously some of Your arguments when You try really hard to make some dk tool to look strong are silly and quite frankly if I wanted I could make same line of argumentation where I will blindly point out every nb ability as OP.

Major sorcery/brutality. It's been a while since I've seen decent non heavy attack DK using molten weapons. Most will either use potions or other ability/set to get that because molten weapons is expensive ability that is hard to find spot for since it's just that buff and dk do not have the pleasure of having lots of flex spots. Funnily enough lately I've seen more nbs using sap essence than DKs using molten weapons so same story as with wings, fact that DK have something doesnt make it strong.

Major mending. When was the last time You've seen mag dk using fragmented shield? And what do You mean You can get "at best" minor mending? You get minor mending passively while healing, for a dk to get major mending he needs to actively slot and use ability that gives just that buff which is additional expensive skill cast. Sounds pretty balanced.

Corrosive is a strong ultimate I will agree here but saying is gives almost immortality is overstatement same goes for "up to 50% damage increase". Please do Your math or research before You comment. Not only this is not how dmg calculations formula goes but You also miss the fact it only buffs direct dmg and that not everyone runs with capped resistances. Also I wouldnt compare it to veil of blades but rather to soul tether which is really strong ultimate in nb kit giving lots of AoE dmg , decent heal and stun.

Ferrocious leap is also pretty strong ultimate but downplaying incap for leap to look stronger is once again silly move. That travel time vs cast time comparision made me giggle tbh. Just dont mash buttons like crazy and You will be fine? And to be honest right now in many open world situations soul tether rivals leap when it comes to effectivness.

Personally I do agree that mag DK is strong choice, stronger than magblade in PvP atm but claiming it's god tier(which You've said if i remember correctly) is a big sign that someone allows emotions to blur the judgement. Not only Your judgment seems to be blurred but You are trying to prove Your point by cherrypicking arguments to fit Your agenda completly missing nb strong sides and unique features picturing it as a bunch of downsides when on the other hand trying to make every DK tool even not so great to look OP. Current strenght of DK is not leaving everyone else behind like it was with lets say necro or warden when these classes were dominating. Only tiny percentage of DK players will be real pain most will die easily or with moderate ease because as strong as it is this class is not a free carry like warden was in the past and overall balance right now is way better with many other setups still having strong tools in their kits, to deal even with current top dogs.

You have some valid points, but once again you miss the bigger picture I've tried to show you, DKs active and passive skills allow him to synergize everything very well giving him much flexibility between sustain, offense and defense. Overall DK arsenal almost in every aspect is slightly better than not only NB but also other classes which leads in the end to big advantage. We can argue which skill has more utility or which skill is better etc. etc. but in the end it's the total amount of damage, healing, resistances and sustain is what matters and DK thanks to complexed arsenal is OP right now. That's not my agenda, just read the thread. There is in here a lot of way more experienced players than me, like Decimus, Dracane or Master_Kas. These all are some of the best PvP players ESO ever had and they say with one voice - DK is OP.

Mr_Stach

Yeah I would definitely say that DK has the best overall Synergy within it's kit. I think Templar is also in that same vein.

Hopefully one day the Balance Gods get other classes up to that level of Synergy

olsborg

Mayrael wrote: »

To keep PvP healthy it would be much better to buff all other classes. The worrying thing is that ZOS doesn't take the matter seriously and we are in for THE YEAR of DK and Templar which will not be good for the game and its population.

PvP is already starting to suffer because of this, ppl are sick of the meta, they dont log in as much (including me)

Dracane

StShoot wrote: »

I believe the DK community has done a great job at misleading

Yeah because dks never got nerfed in the past... they are still as strong as in 2014 xDDD.
Also if you ballance classes you can not just compare a skill with another skill, healing multpliers, sustain and other healing mechanics have to be taken in consideration.

I agree, which is why I am no friend of simple UESP skill builder comparisons.

axi

Dracane wrote: »

I believe the DK community has done a great job at misleading Zenimax for years. Every PTS, there were cries for buffs to Dk and ZoS granted them and this was mirrored by a lack of complains and calls for nerfs by the rest of the community. DKs have never been weak or bad in any content and yet still got buffed every single patch.

Sorcerer, Templar Nightblade; they had plenty of calls for nerfs from the community and ZoS granted.
This is why I think DK ended up as it is now: A greedy DK community that had every wish granted even though the class was great and pretty OP years ago.

The deception is especially apparent when it comes to the topic of healing. It was always complained how underperforming Dragonblood is, but guess what, it's actually the strongest self heal in the game while Arctic Wind was the weakest, yet everyone complained about Arctic Wind and not Dragonblood. Seems nobody ever went through the effort of actually comparing classes with equalish stats. Well played DK community.

What DK community? Up until recent dk buffs the only consistantly decent DKs You would see in PvP were stam DKs and only ones who were doing fine on those were decent PvP players. You wouldn't find casual player being problematic to fight against on a DK. Mag DK community was at the verge of extinction outside of maybe dueling and few heavy attack memers so I guess You assume that this was all part of the plan to not play on the class for couple of years just to decive ZoS into thinking mag Dk is underperforming so they would buff DK after that time. What a genius move of a DK community. Truly a master plan.

axi

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous tbh. The two overperforming classes only get very minor nerfs and even compensated for it. When Nb was overperforming they deleted defile, fracture, minor berserk and their snare in a single patch. Like seriously? Where are the nerfs for the two broken classes right now?

Some may not remember 2015 but mentioned by You nb nerfs are nothing compared to what was done to a dk back then. It literally made mag dk shadow of itself for many years to come.And tbh ever since then are adding lots of features back to nb making it comparable or even stronger right now then it was before nerfs. Stronger of course when compared to former self because game in general is more balanced then it was during an era where 1-2 setups dominated, leaving everyone far far behind. Hell even magblade can be really and I mean really strong right now. As much as many people don't want to belive in it, currently overal strenght in PvP between different classes is more balanced than during era when classes like sorc, nb , warden or necro were dominating PvP.

Ok. Let's play.

NB over the years lost passive minor vitality, major fracture, major expedition on cripple, minor berserk, major defile, path got standardized while ritual of retribution didn't, we also lost our unique CC because everyone now have better ones versions, weve lost cloak (did you ever seen Sorc running away with vampire stage 4 passives? Good luck on catching those). NB is the only class with 2 cast time ultimates and 1 instant that is totally useless, like the worst ultimate in the game since major/minor buffs adjustments it has no use, like anywhere (where are changes to this BTW ZOS?).

No NB is nowhere close to where it was. That's true you can still find some strong blades out there, but they are strong not because of class.

Well the only game I see being played here is the one where You intentionally ignore many important details just to create context which will fit Your agenda.

You've lost minor vitality? You got minor mending
You've lost major fracture? You still have it on mark and You got minor fracture and passive penetration.
You've lost expedition on crippling grasp? If only there were other ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost minor berserk? If only there were other easy ways to get it. Oh wait there are.
You've lost major defile? Hmm, Soul Harvest tooltip must be lying then.
Path got standarized? You mean healing or damaging one because damaging one is still the strongest class ground based AoE while ritual of retribution while maybe not reciving dmg nerf had its healing portion removed.
You've lost CC because other classes have CC? That argument is actually the most silly one but it shows Your overall line of thinking that if any class will have acces to anything that is similar to some nb feature that nb have or had then suddenly in Your eyes "nb lost it".

You've lost cloak because vampires can dissapear now while sprinting? I guess You never had cloak in a first place then because people could use stealth or invisibility potions since launch. You have issues with cathing sorc? Well who would guess that can be a thing when fighting a class with defensive based around mobility.

Going by Your logic I guess everyone else lost burst heal now when nb finally got one? It's funny how You cherrypick downsides of the class, which btw every class have and You try to ignore upsides and buffs that class recived. Getting burst heal for example is a big deal for a nb and it's the biggest buff nb could get and You can really see it.

The only thing that nb truly lost is ability to not make choices because at some point class had overabundance of abilities packed with passive goodies (especially noticable on stamblade).

2022 nb slaps 2019 nb with ease through itemization changes itself. Like I already said newest addition of a burst heal is a big deal and first time since years I've seen magblade pulling 1vX in noCP Cyro effectively and consistantly even against enemies with some brain cells. Magblade can even withstand and defeat decent magDKs. Yes You can claim people capable of that are good players but how many noob mag DKs have You seen being able to do the same? Feats like that will always require decent player behind the wheel.

You don't get it. Yes I can get all those things back by sloting this and that but hey guess what? I would have to use useless skills that don't fit in pvp. I can use refreshing path to get major exp back, I can get berserk by using new ambush (which is clumsy, is the only gap closer with cast time and requires target), I can get major defile by using worse morph of ultimate and because of all changes made before to NB I cant do it because I have no room for just close range stun (I used to have but because all of my skills got ripped of secondary buffs I cant anymore).

Getting heal was a result of a fact that Cloak has so many counters that NB was forced to use resto staff or it is dead - go play one and youll see how many things breaks cloak. One of my favs is Elemental Susceptibility - every few seconds pulls you out of cloak for 60s when new status effect is applied. Oh and through many years that one heal was the only meaningfull buff to NB, all the rest was just reworking things so NB bar would be harder to manage. Moving crucial buffs to things NBs are not using to force us to use useless skills. Like soul harvest, refreshing path, mark target, ambush and many more, while DKs and Temps got their primary most used skills buffed.

It's not about that NB have no access to mentioned things, it's about where those things are placed.

Let's take DK for example.
Major breach? AoE dot used by everyone anyway - at least now second choice won't be obvious since now it is more damage vs heavy armor or more overall damage.
Major prophecy and savagery? Nighbalde doesn't even have that in it's toolkit, you can have heal or powerfull dot with that.
Major resolve? Nighblade have to cast shadow skill every 6s to refresh it or wear full heavy armor to get it above 10s while you just pop 1 skill, additionaly you have free cloak breaking tool and dot. No NB in 10m range can go into hide.
Snare and root immunity? I have to slot RAT for this and I have just that it's a good skill but I don't have any choice, while DK can go for a skill that gives him 50% damage reduction to almost whole magblade toolkit. At least you have choice.
Major sorcery and brutality? Don't even start it.
Major mending? I can get at best minor mending or channel resto staff heavy attack.
And maybe you want to talko about almost free to use (with 1 cost reduction glyph) heal that also snares by 70%? (which NB has bound to ULTIMATE lol!)
Should we compare ultimates?
Corrosive Armor vs Bolstering Darkness or Veil of blades? Corrosive giving almost immortality, up to 50% damage increase (depending on targets armor), dot, and resources back thanks to passives vs 10% damage reduction and 70% snare + few seconds of major resolve thanks to passives?
Ferocious Leap vs Incapacitating Strike? Almost the same cost but Ferocious deals more damage (with the same stats) is ranged, has no cast time (travel time>cast time since you have to stop everything you do and wait till it actually fires to not break it), is AoE which makes it almost impossible to dodge have unbreakable CC thanks to knockback bug and grands you huge shield. Incap single target that is dodged 60-80% of a time, that deals less damage. It grants you 20% more damage (if you manage to land it) and passively increases your crit chance by around 2% and gives sustain.

Oh I see the game of choosing arguments to fit the agenda and ignoring reality continues. You can slot race against time to get major expedition and camo hunter to get berserk. Both are very good and commonly used abilities. It's not like You're being locked to use just class tools and that if You need to look usefull tool outside of the class kit then suddenly a class is weak. Yes they're not nb specific tool but same goes for many tools that make other classes including DK strong atm (vampire, charged trait, radiating regen etc). As long as something empowers specific class kit it still counts towards being good for a specific class. As for defile goes like I said earlier it's one of those places where You need to make a choice which is fine, having everything delivered passively was a bad game design and old incap was a bad game design combining big dmg, stun, 20% more dmg debuff and defile. You complain so much about dk but You wont find many abilities on DK kit that share multiple usages and grant lots of buffs and debuffs passively like some of the nb abilities used to do.

You are adding Your own story to why nb got burst heal, once again for it to fit Your agenda. You can read developer comment as of why this change was made instead of creating Your own imaginary stories. In short they did it because ability was not used much due to pure health cost and lack of selfhealing so they wanted to make it more desirable. Nothing to do with cloak. Get real, don't make up Your own stories to support Your arguments. As for cloak many nbs atm plays with healing morph of it because this combined with new burst heal can make You really tanky and allows to survive heavy beating for a long time. Magblade atm can literally be a brawler and can do it pretty nice. I've tried it and I was positively suprised by the amount of tankiness I had, in some situations 1vX was easier than on DK. Taking away certain buffs and debuffs from a nb or moving them somwhere else was a good decision. It's kinda silly for 2-3 abilities in class kit to give the same thing and for certain abilities to have so many functions at once that other classes needed to slot like 6-7 abilities to get what nb was getting with 2-3 skills.

As I said You still have acces to mentioned things outside of nb kit if You dont like where class itself have them and most of the time these abilities are really good replacement.

Major breach. 50/50 when it comes to reliability in PvP on DK. It may be AoE but the way how cone functions sometimes makes it worse then single target abilities especially in Cyro. Is it bad though? No., but it have its downsides and it's not like You need for major breach to be an AoE to be good. Single target breach with reliable application method very often can be better than half reliable meele cone.

Major peorhecy/savagey. Camo hunter exist? And nb can also add minor savagery on top of that passively. Camo hunter is ability that fits nb playstyle perfectly anyway.

Major resolve. You are really trying to make a fact that nb gets it passively a downside? Your main offense and defense are coming from shadow tree if built properly and people are getting 7-10 seconds easily because some heavy armor pieces will be used. It's childsplay to keep it up passively. Also in full heavy armor You get over 16 seconds not 10, to get it over 10 sec You need 3 heavy which isn't unusual these days.

That immobilize/snare immunity wings are "so good" that You see more nbs using phantasmal escape than dks using protecting plate. In fact You will see more dks using RAT or mist than protecting plate. Seriously some of Your arguments when You try really hard to make some dk tool to look strong are silly and quite frankly if I wanted I could make same line of argumentation where I will blindly point out every nb ability as OP.

Major sorcery/brutality. It's been a while since I've seen decent non heavy attack DK using molten weapons. Most will either use potions or other ability/set to get that because molten weapons is expensive ability that is hard to find spot for since it's just that buff and dk do not have the pleasure of having lots of flex spots. Funnily enough lately I've seen more nbs using sap essence than DKs using molten weapons so same story as with wings, fact that DK have something doesnt make it strong.

Major mending. When was the last time You've seen mag dk using fragmented shield? And what do You mean You can get "at best" minor mending? You get minor mending passively while healing, for a dk to get major mending he needs to actively slot and use ability that gives just that buff which is additional expensive skill cast. Sounds pretty balanced.

Corrosive is a strong ultimate I will agree here but saying is gives almost immortality is overstatement same goes for "up to 50% damage increase". Please do Your math or research before You comment. Not only this is not how dmg calculations formula goes but You also miss the fact it only buffs direct dmg and that not everyone runs with capped resistances. Also I wouldnt compare it to veil of blades but rather to soul tether which is really strong ultimate in nb kit giving lots of AoE dmg , decent heal and stun.

Ferrocious leap is also pretty strong ultimate but downplaying incap for leap to look stronger is once again silly move. That travel time vs cast time comparision made me giggle tbh. Just dont mash buttons like crazy and You will be fine? And to be honest right now in many open world situations soul tether rivals leap when it comes to effectivness.

Personally I do agree that mag DK is strong choice, stronger than magblade in PvP atm but claiming it's god tier(which You've said if i remember correctly) is a big sign that someone allows emotions to blur the judgement. Not only Your judgment seems to be blurred but You are trying to prove Your point by cherrypicking arguments to fit Your agenda completly missing nb strong sides and unique features picturing it as a bunch of downsides when on the other hand trying to make every DK tool even not so great to look OP. Current strenght of DK is not leaving everyone else behind like it was with lets say necro or warden when these classes were dominating. Only tiny percentage of DK players will be real pain most will die easily or with moderate ease because as strong as it is this class is not a free carry like warden was in the past and overall balance right now is way better with many other setups still having strong tools in their kits, to deal even with current top dogs.

You have some valid points, but once again you miss the bigger picture I've tried to show you, DKs active and passive skills allow him to synergize everything very well giving him much flexibility between sustain, offense and defense. Overall DK arsenal almost in every aspect is slightly better than not only NB but also other classes which leads in the end to big advantage. We can argue which skill has more utility or which skill is better etc. etc. but in the end it's the total amount of damage, healing, resistances and sustain is what matters and DK thanks to complexed arsenal is OP right now. That's not my agenda, just read the thread. There is in here a lot of way more experienced players than me, like Decimus, Dracane or Master_Kas. These all are some of the best PvP players ESO ever had and they say with one voice - DK is OP.

What You are seem to be missing when it comes to the bigger picture is that this synergy You are talking about relies heavily on tools from outside of a DK class. DK arsenal is not even complete tbh, class still lacks few features like for example any form of reliable gap closer(leap isn't reliable gap closer since it's an ultimate and chain is a joke) or any form of finishing an enemy that wouldnt be just a burst ability used as finisher. I am not saying DK desperately needs those I am just stating what this class lacks that others have.

That sustain, defense and offense You are talking about is based on 2 pillars , which are charged trait and vampire. I can guarantee You that changing charged from 480% do lets say 320% would already tone down DK strenght. Charged on its own provides lots of damage and sustain into the DK toolkit and because of that also more defense, vampire just tops that off but that happens for almost every class. People claiming that mag DK is OP on its own are really sleeping on fact how greatly charged empowers the class atm. Lets assume You will use posion and absorb stamina glyph on weapons, that combined with the fact You will have sources of magic (volatile armor) and flame(almost everything else) dmg will allow You to keep up : burning status effect providing decent dmg and magicka sustain (which bypasses mist drawback btw), posioned status effect providing decent dmg and stamina sustain , overcharged status effect providing minor magickasteal which means more sustain (also bypasses mist drawbacks) and sundered status effect (absorb stamina glyph deals physical dmg) with high uptime meaning minor breach aka 3k pen for free all of that just with 1 weapon trait.

Yes DK have few decent abilities in his class kit but these abilities wouldn't perform so well if not supported by mentioned above things.

When it comes to relying on opinion of mentioned by You trio I really dont find that as a valid argument. Some of the mentioned are simply biased and some are out of touch with current state of the game.