silvereyes wrote: »I'm not going to white-knight the decisions that have been made. I will just say that I don't personally see any reason to second-guessI'm not going to white-night their solution, but there are a lot of factors that go into such decisions, and we are missing most of that information. Without all the facts, it's really hard to say that this wasn't the best of many bad options. I reserve judgement on the technical side of things, even if I can think of many ways to address the technical side differently.DarcyMardin wrote: »For people who are looking for a reliable way to back up and save for posterity your character-specific data before Monday:
LibAchievementsArchive
@code65536 , thanks so much for making this library. One question -- I have more than one account. Can I use this library to store the achievement data for all my characters across all 4 accounts, or should I somehow separate them? Thanks!
At quick glance into the saved variables file, it saves Server/account/character name, so you can use it for all your accounts on either server.
(But Code can confirm)
After logging through all 18 characters... the stored data (in this addon)
131 KB... I use like 50x that data to stream a single song to my phone over a wireless network
I struggle mightily to understand how this is going to save the game and fix performance issues. But I'm not a database engineer, just somebody who understands numbers and relative size.
Also this is in lua, which is basically plain text. A database can store this in a fraction of the space, with redundancy.silvereyes wrote: »It really isn't. Not for a data-driven software service catering to a theoretical 19 million people (which, let's be honest, most are going to be in cold storage)Just to go into this in further detail, because I also wanted to address this:On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50kB of achievement data per character.50kB should be considered a worst-case scenario. If what is being said is an accurate representation of how ZOS is dealing with the data on the server side (and… honestly, who knows)… then this is less than 1MB per account (assuming maximum of 18 characters being 900kB), and if we assume 1MB (rounding up)… now multiply that by all the accounts and work out an average. ZOS's last statement about accounts was somewhere just over 19 million, collectively, if I recall.Thanks for the explanation!
And their servers must be on life support if scavenging just 50kb per character is going to make or break performant-ness!
This is… 19TB (again, rounding up here, 900kB would end up being more around 17TB). That's immense and, quite frankly, nonsensical.aaaaI also find it amusing that instead of data being eliminated, it will simply be transferred to addons. Will that negate any potential performance benefits? I’m not a professional coder, so I’m not sure how that works. Does it only impact the client, or do the data calls add to the server load?
It's effectively transferring the work from the server to the client. That said, any performance impact is negligible. While writing LibAchievementsArchive, I had taken some measurements to see how long it took to fully back up a character's achievement data...
The entire process of reading, processing, and encoding all of the data for all 3219 achievements for a character (which includes associated progress data; e.g., "Humanoid Slayer" is a single achievement with three separate requirements of killing 1000 humanoids, 500 goblins, and 100 giants) took something on the order of 30ms (0.03s).
On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50KB of achievement data per character.
The impact on the client is trivial, but that also suggests a somewhat limited impact for leaving it on the server.
you are neglecting it's database stuff.
One 4k movie is a lot less of an issue than equivalent byte database table with super small data per entry...
a 10GB database with 300M 32byte entries will behave quite different than a 10GB one with 300k 32kbyte entries.
and you forgot to count charid plus achieveid in your space sumup.
We don't know how things work exactly on the backend, but there's no evidence to suggest that all of the characters' achievements in the game are just dumped into a flat database.
Perhaps not a flat database, but character loads do seem to take longer on older characters with more achievements (and other progression) than brand new character loads. If both had a fixed width binary object with all the data connected to the main character record, they should theoretically take the same amount of time to load.
Also, remember what they said: "By reducing the amount of data we have to store, the database doesn’t have to work as hard so the time it takes to search...." (emphasis mine).
This means that achievements must be in a separate data store that, at the very least, has to do a lookup. Even if it's just by character id and not achievement id too, switching to a lookup by account id could still cut the index size significantly.Yes, but could fixing that be done within the time constraints they seem to be operating under?And if they did drop the ball, then fixing that would yield far more dividends than whatever they're doing in this patch.Agreed. The client is interacting with a cache.Accessing achievement information does not incur any server hits (it would simply be impossible for me to query all 3219 achievements in a fraction of my ping time if any part of that required a server hit), which means that all of the achievement data is transferred to the client when the character is loadedNot sure I follow. How is the fact that there is a cache indicative in any way of the backing database architecture?all achievement queries happen locally on the client. Which would suggest that achievements are stored as a blob and not individual database entries.They never promised any performance benefits to the player. They threw in some theoretical "may" verbiage about load screens and database-heavy operations, but almost as a side-effect, not their motivation for the change. They called out that the "most important" bit was preserving their ability to add "more content and achievements in the future".I have been skeptical--and remain so--of any purported performance benefits of AwA. After all, if there really was a significant gain, wouldn't ZOS have stated that from the get-go instead of pulling the performance card late in the game only in the face of controversy?
They're probably trying to improve performance impacts for themselves, not for us. Like, for example, players logging in and out of toons for daily writs and random normal dungeons. If this loading is causing a bandwidth issue, I understand what they are trying to do, but it's really a fundamental game design issue that encourages this behavior in first place, and their "solution" is just awful decision making.
Still, the end result on the community is heartbreaking, and it deserves some introspection from ZOS to figure out how they arrived at this point. Even if all their decisions were the best they could have made under the circumstances, perhaps there's something they can do as a company to ensure similar circumstances don't lead to future no-win scenarios like this.
I really wish that there had been someone in power that had insisted that ripping out character progression tracking and journal was a red line not to cross - for the identity of the game if nothing else - and they needed to shift project timelines or content releases or whatever else was needed to regroup and find a different technical solution. If that's the sort of thing that just can't happen for whatever reason, maybe the best question for them to ask at this point is, why not?
That's why we've asked (repeatedly) for that information. For a justification. For somebody to explain why.
We got one tiny squeak (from the Q&A), then nothing. Radio silence.
And then to still be told "we're working on our communication"...
It's proof that the word "communication" was used as buzzword and there was not really any intention on doing so. And it's why I've pulled my financial support from this game after supporting it continuously (and on multiple accounts) for years.
I'm not naïve, so I know that I'm nothing more than a line in a database (irony?) with an account number and a credit card number attached to it to a large company like this. It that I feel like we were given meaningless lip service, that has left this bitter taste in my mouth. Because they never really cared about us, the players.
I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
@AlnilamE I was aware the incomplete skyshards could be seen from the tooltip; that was not the point of my observation. The point was the apparent disconnect between 'character' and 'account and that different parts of the interface were showing radically different information.Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Skyshards still need to be character specific.
They, too, exist in a superposition of states where the achievement is flagged as done but the zone guide says 'x of y' completed with no indication which ones any given character still has to do. It's just stupid.
Wait...you haven't done this because with the 'crack open a walnut with a sledgehammer' approach you'd have to wipe out ALL current skyshard progression, just like you did with museum quests, meaning characters who'd already completed them would have to redo them.
What a broken mess.
I think you can see which skyshards you are missing on a character if you go into the actual Zone Guide (not the summary on the map) and hover over the skyshard count. But it's a couple more steps than you need to take now.
silvereyes wrote: »I'm not going to white-knight the decisions that have been made. I will just say that I don't personally see any reason to second-guessI'm not going to white-night their solution, but there are a lot of factors that go into such decisions, and we are missing most of that information. Without all the facts, it's really hard to say that this wasn't the best of many bad options. I reserve judgement on the technical side of things, even if I can think of many ways to address the technical side differently.DarcyMardin wrote: »For people who are looking for a reliable way to back up and save for posterity your character-specific data before Monday:
LibAchievementsArchive
@code65536 , thanks so much for making this library. One question -- I have more than one account. Can I use this library to store the achievement data for all my characters across all 4 accounts, or should I somehow separate them? Thanks!
At quick glance into the saved variables file, it saves Server/account/character name, so you can use it for all your accounts on either server.
(But Code can confirm)
After logging through all 18 characters... the stored data (in this addon)
131 KB... I use like 50x that data to stream a single song to my phone over a wireless network
I struggle mightily to understand how this is going to save the game and fix performance issues. But I'm not a database engineer, just somebody who understands numbers and relative size.
Also this is in lua, which is basically plain text. A database can store this in a fraction of the space, with redundancy.silvereyes wrote: »It really isn't. Not for a data-driven software service catering to a theoretical 19 million people (which, let's be honest, most are going to be in cold storage)Just to go into this in further detail, because I also wanted to address this:On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50kB of achievement data per character.50kB should be considered a worst-case scenario. If what is being said is an accurate representation of how ZOS is dealing with the data on the server side (and… honestly, who knows)… then this is less than 1MB per account (assuming maximum of 18 characters being 900kB), and if we assume 1MB (rounding up)… now multiply that by all the accounts and work out an average. ZOS's last statement about accounts was somewhere just over 19 million, collectively, if I recall.Thanks for the explanation!
And their servers must be on life support if scavenging just 50kb per character is going to make or break performant-ness!
This is… 19TB (again, rounding up here, 900kB would end up being more around 17TB). That's immense and, quite frankly, nonsensical.aaaaI also find it amusing that instead of data being eliminated, it will simply be transferred to addons. Will that negate any potential performance benefits? I’m not a professional coder, so I’m not sure how that works. Does it only impact the client, or do the data calls add to the server load?
It's effectively transferring the work from the server to the client. That said, any performance impact is negligible. While writing LibAchievementsArchive, I had taken some measurements to see how long it took to fully back up a character's achievement data...
The entire process of reading, processing, and encoding all of the data for all 3219 achievements for a character (which includes associated progress data; e.g., "Humanoid Slayer" is a single achievement with three separate requirements of killing 1000 humanoids, 500 goblins, and 100 giants) took something on the order of 30ms (0.03s).
On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50KB of achievement data per character.
The impact on the client is trivial, but that also suggests a somewhat limited impact for leaving it on the server.
you are neglecting it's database stuff.
One 4k movie is a lot less of an issue than equivalent byte database table with super small data per entry...
a 10GB database with 300M 32byte entries will behave quite different than a 10GB one with 300k 32kbyte entries.
and you forgot to count charid plus achieveid in your space sumup.
We don't know how things work exactly on the backend, but there's no evidence to suggest that all of the characters' achievements in the game are just dumped into a flat database.
Perhaps not a flat database, but character loads do seem to take longer on older characters with more achievements (and other progression) than brand new character loads. If both had a fixed width binary object with all the data connected to the main character record, they should theoretically take the same amount of time to load.
Also, remember what they said: "By reducing the amount of data we have to store, the database doesn’t have to work as hard so the time it takes to search...." (emphasis mine).
This means that achievements must be in a separate data store that, at the very least, has to do a lookup. Even if it's just by character id and not achievement id too, switching to a lookup by account id could still cut the index size significantly.Yes, but could fixing that be done within the time constraints they seem to be operating under?And if they did drop the ball, then fixing that would yield far more dividends than whatever they're doing in this patch.Agreed. The client is interacting with a cache.Accessing achievement information does not incur any server hits (it would simply be impossible for me to query all 3219 achievements in a fraction of my ping time if any part of that required a server hit), which means that all of the achievement data is transferred to the client when the character is loadedNot sure I follow. How is the fact that there is a cache indicative in any way of the backing database architecture?all achievement queries happen locally on the client. Which would suggest that achievements are stored as a blob and not individual database entries.They never promised any performance benefits to the player. They threw in some theoretical "may" verbiage about load screens and database-heavy operations, but almost as a side-effect, not their motivation for the change. They called out that the "most important" bit was preserving their ability to add "more content and achievements in the future".I have been skeptical--and remain so--of any purported performance benefits of AwA. After all, if there really was a significant gain, wouldn't ZOS have stated that from the get-go instead of pulling the performance card late in the game only in the face of controversy?
They're probably trying to improve performance impacts for themselves, not for us. Like, for example, players logging in and out of toons for daily writs and random normal dungeons. If this loading is causing a bandwidth issue, I understand what they are trying to do, but it's really a fundamental game design issue that encourages this behavior in first place, and their "solution" is just awful decision making.
Still, the end result on the community is heartbreaking, and it deserves some introspection from ZOS to figure out how they arrived at this point. Even if all their decisions were the best they could have made under the circumstances, perhaps there's something they can do as a company to ensure similar circumstances don't lead to future no-win scenarios like this.
I really wish that there had been someone in power that had insisted that ripping out character progression tracking and journal was a red line not to cross - for the identity of the game if nothing else - and they needed to shift project timelines or content releases or whatever else was needed to regroup and find a different technical solution. If that's the sort of thing that just can't happen for whatever reason, maybe the best question for them to ask at this point is, why not?
That's why we've asked (repeatedly) for that information. For a justification. For somebody to explain why.
We got one tiny squeak (from the Q&A), then nothing. Radio silence.
And then to still be told "we're working on our communication"...
It's proof that the word "communication" was used as buzzword and there was not really any intention on doing so. And it's why I've pulled my financial support from this game after supporting it continuously (and on multiple accounts) for years.
I'm not naïve, so I know that I'm nothing more than a line in a database (irony?) with an account number and a credit card number attached to it to a large company like this. It that I feel like we were given meaningless lip service, that has left this bitter taste in my mouth. Because they never really cared about us, the players.
Communication from ZOS besides the really flat Q&A might have done a lot. Instead silence only caused us to speculate and imagine worst case scenarios, and instead of addressing the additional concerns we have and opening lines of communication and actually engaging with us, they let us wallow in our misery. I even made a separate thread about it here, it actually got the attention of one of the CMs who responded:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598936/in-the-future-maybe-ask-your-players-for-more-ideas-about-things#latest
In the end though, they chose to remain silent, and we still wallow in misery. That's ok because my wallet is now silent. My sub ran out yesterday, and no craft bag or housing or bank limits are going to get me to open it back up again. I won't be actively playing on live. I'll continue to test on PTS and report bugs, but as long as the game world on live remains in a broken state, which seems likely as the bugs and issues remain unfixed with not a single period of acknowledgement, I will not play their broken game.
I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
silvereyes wrote: »For people who are looking for a reliable way to back up and save for posterity your character-specific data before Monday:
LibAchievementsArchive
A million thanks to @code65536 for this library.
I whipped up a quick integration into the Quest Journal for that library into Update 33, so that any completed achievements in the archive are displayed as character-specific, even achievement links.
Character Achievements addon
It's backwards compatible with live, if you want to load it up now, but it won't do anything until Update 33 drops.
I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - Fadomai
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
As far as I can tell all museum quests are reset so characters who had completed them will have to redo them; ironically the achievement (account-wide) is done if any one charcter has completed it. For museum quests that give a mural or factotum, for example, those seem repeatable so you can still earn mulitple pieces, although I've not gone through one to completion to confirm this. Thieves Guild Kari's hit list is an exception: the hit-list is reset but you don't get the advancement of the thieves guild skill-line on subsequent characters as you do on live - so get those done on alts to boost the skill-line to 3 over the weekend if continuing to play. This latter was tested and confirmed.
Delves and maps are unchanged - they initially look dark if not done but, when you approach auto-turn white and show as completed. The delve boss auto-spawn for first-time characters is still broken so 5+ minute wait if you see any point in grabbing anything other than a skyshard from a delve.
As far as I could tell, NPC reactions remained tied to account-wide so a neophyte 3rd level soul-shriven ragman is still treated is as the saviour of the known universe. I didn't check broken stros m'kai quest so no idea on that one.
If you want something else tested just let me know
The Dragonguard Berserker styles will be bound to your character, so the only way to acquire this impressive armor is to earn it through battle.
If you want something else tested just let me know
Would you be willing to pick up a Dragonguard Berserker page in the IC sewers and test whether the style is character bound, as ZOS says in the preview, or if it's actually account bound and available to your non-pvp characters?The Dragonguard Berserker styles will be bound to your character, so the only way to acquire this impressive armor is to earn it through battle.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61715
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - Fadomai
If you want something else tested just let me know
Would you be willing to pick up a Dragonguard Berserker page in the IC sewers and test whether the style is character bound, as ZOS says in the preview, or if it's actually account bound and available to your non-pvp characters?The Dragonguard Berserker styles will be bound to your character, so the only way to acquire this impressive armor is to earn it through battle.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61715
Tested.
You can only buy them with a character with rank 20 or higher. Characters under the rank of 20, even if they have the achievement via AwA can't buy the item. These pages are character bound and you can't put them in your bank for other characters to use it (which does not really matter since it is a style page and therefore account wide, after you learn it on one character it is avaiblible for all characters). After buying them they dissapear from the Tel Var General Merchant so you can't see them anymore or accidently buy them again.
Quoted post has been removed.
wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
I never got the impression that they were doing AwA to make room for the card game. In fact, I think they are doing AwA, and are in a hurry, because they need it done before the High Isle achievements hit the game. Putting it out in Update 33 allows them to fix things before High Isle. I also think that this is in conjunction with performance analysis that was completed last year while they were investigating Cyrodiil performance. This is not to say that it will impact Cyrodiil performance.
Aside: This thread is not about the card game, but I suggested that they consider tavern games, including a Legends style card game, integrated with ESO on more than one occasion. It is not a bad idea.
wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
I never got the impression that they were doing AwA to make room for the card game. In fact, I think they are doing AwA, and are in a hurry, because they need it done before the High Isle achievements hit the game. Putting it out in Update 33 allows them to fix things before High Isle. I also think that this is in conjunction with performance analysis that was completed last year while they were investigating Cyrodiil performance. This is not to say that it will impact Cyrodiil performance.
Aside: This thread is not about the card game, but I suggested that they consider tavern games, including a Legends style card game, integrated with ESO on more than one occasion. It is not a bad idea.
If you mean the fact that the progression was reset on PTS, then no, that has not been fixed. However, all the achievements are character-specific now, so presumably, they will copy their progress correctly on live, the same as other character-specific achievements do.I can't go through all these comments and I can't find it in patch notes, but did they fix the broken progression on museum furnishing quests on alts?
silvereyes wrote: »Also just released.
Character Zone Tracker addon
Install that on live and log in to each of your characters in order to preserve character completion for delves, world bosses and world events (e.g. dolmens, geysers).
Isn't it interesting that people who are are against this change are for the most part passionate about it, writing detailed, multi-paragraphed explanations as to why it disrupts how they approach the game, yet those in favor usually write brief, vague remarks supporting it?
I'm genuinely curious why that is.
LesserCircle wrote: »Isn't it interesting that people who are are against this change are for the most part passionate about it, writing detailed, multi-paragraphed explanations as to why it disrupts how they approach the game, yet those in favor usually write brief, vague remarks supporting it?
I'm genuinely curious why that is.
I'm genuinely curious to know what would you say if you agreed with a change. People who don't like AwA will of course write long explanations with all the reasons as to why they don't like it, people complaining will always be the loud ones and it's completely understandable. We're not on opposite sides tho, even tho I like the change I'm not happy about people not having a better option to their liking. Just don't try to invalidate my positive opinion.