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PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements
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Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭silvereyes wrote: »I'm not going to white-knight the decisions that have been made. I will just say that I don't personally see any reason to second-guess
I'm not going to white-night their solution, but there are a lot of factors that go into such decisions, and we are missing most of that information. Without all the facts, it's really hard to say that this wasn't the best of many bad options. I reserve judgement on the technical side of things, even if I can think of many ways to address the technical side differently.DarcyMardin wrote: »For people who are looking for a reliable way to back up and save for posterity your character-specific data before Monday:
LibAchievementsArchive
@code65536 , thanks so much for making this library. One question -- I have more than one account. Can I use this library to store the achievement data for all my characters across all 4 accounts, or should I somehow separate them? Thanks!
At quick glance into the saved variables file, it saves Server/account/character name, so you can use it for all your accounts on either server.
(But Code can confirm)
After logging through all 18 characters... the stored data (in this addon)
131 KB... I use like 50x that data to stream a single song to my phone over a wireless network
I struggle mightily to understand how this is going to save the game and fix performance issues. But I'm not a database engineer, just somebody who understands numbers and relative size.
Also this is in lua, which is basically plain text. A database can store this in a fraction of the space, with redundancy.silvereyes wrote: »
It really isn't. Not for a data-driven software service catering to a theoretical 19 million people (which, let's be honest, most are going to be in cold storage)
Just to go into this in further detail, because I also wanted to address this:On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50kB of achievement data per character.
50kB should be considered a worst-case scenario. If what is being said is an accurate representation of how ZOS is dealing with the data on the server side (and… honestly, who knows)… then this is less than 1MB per account (assuming maximum of 18 characters being 900kB), and if we assume 1MB (rounding up)… now multiply that by all the accounts and work out an average. ZOS's last statement about accounts was somewhere just over 19 million, collectively, if I recall.Thanks for the explanation!
And their servers must be on life support if scavenging just 50kb per character is going to make or break performant-ness!
This is… 19TB (again, rounding up here, 900kB would end up being more around 17TB). That's immense and, quite frankly, nonsensical.aaaaI also find it amusing that instead of data being eliminated, it will simply be transferred to addons. Will that negate any potential performance benefits? I’m not a professional coder, so I’m not sure how that works. Does it only impact the client, or do the data calls add to the server load?
It's effectively transferring the work from the server to the client. That said, any performance impact is negligible. While writing LibAchievementsArchive, I had taken some measurements to see how long it took to fully back up a character's achievement data...
The entire process of reading, processing, and encoding all of the data for all 3219 achievements for a character (which includes associated progress data; e.g., "Humanoid Slayer" is a single achievement with three separate requirements of killing 1000 humanoids, 500 goblins, and 100 giants) took something on the order of 30ms (0.03s).
On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50KB of achievement data per character.
The impact on the client is trivial, but that also suggests a somewhat limited impact for leaving it on the server.
you are neglecting it's database stuff.
One 4k movie is a lot less of an issue than equivalent byte database table with super small data per entry...
a 10GB database with 300M 32byte entries will behave quite different than a 10GB one with 300k 32kbyte entries.
and you forgot to count charid plus achieveid in your space sumup.
We don't know how things work exactly on the backend, but there's no evidence to suggest that all of the characters' achievements in the game are just dumped into a flat database.
Perhaps not a flat database, but character loads do seem to take longer on older characters with more achievements (and other progression) than brand new character loads. If both had a fixed width binary object with all the data connected to the main character record, they should theoretically take the same amount of time to load.
Also, remember what they said: "By reducing the amount of data we have to store, the database doesn’t have to work as hard so the time it takes to search...." (emphasis mine).
This means that achievements must be in a separate data store that, at the very least, has to do a lookup. Even if it's just by character id and not achievement id too, switching to a lookup by account id could still cut the index size significantly.
Yes, but could fixing that be done within the time constraints they seem to be operating under?And if they did drop the ball, then fixing that would yield far more dividends than whatever they're doing in this patch.
Agreed. The client is interacting with a cache.Accessing achievement information does not incur any server hits (it would simply be impossible for me to query all 3219 achievements in a fraction of my ping time if any part of that required a server hit), which means that all of the achievement data is transferred to the client when the character is loaded
Not sure I follow. How is the fact that there is a cache indicative in any way of the backing database architecture?all achievement queries happen locally on the client. Which would suggest that achievements are stored as a blob and not individual database entries.
They never promised any performance benefits to the player. They threw in some theoretical "may" verbiage about load screens and database-heavy operations, but almost as a side-effect, not their motivation for the change. They called out that the "most important" bit was preserving their ability to add "more content and achievements in the future".I have been skeptical--and remain so--of any purported performance benefits of AwA. After all, if there really was a significant gain, wouldn't ZOS have stated that from the get-go instead of pulling the performance card late in the game only in the face of controversy?
They're probably trying to improve performance impacts for themselves, not for us. Like, for example, players logging in and out of toons for daily writs and random normal dungeons. If this loading is causing a bandwidth issue, I understand what they are trying to do, but it's really a fundamental game design issue that encourages this behavior in first place, and their "solution" is just awful decision making.
Still, the end result on the community is heartbreaking, and it deserves some introspection from ZOS to figure out how they arrived at this point. Even if all their decisions were the best they could have made under the circumstances, perhaps there's something they can do as a company to ensure similar circumstances don't lead to future no-win scenarios like this.
I really wish that there had been someone in power that had insisted that ripping out character progression tracking and journal was a red line not to cross - for the identity of the game if nothing else - and they needed to shift project timelines or content releases or whatever else was needed to regroup and find a different technical solution. If that's the sort of thing that just can't happen for whatever reason, maybe the best question for them to ask at this point is, why not?
That's why we've asked (repeatedly) for that information. For a justification. For somebody to explain why.
We got one tiny squeak (from the Q&A), then nothing. Radio silence.
And then to still be told "we're working on our communication"...
It's proof that the word "communication" was used as buzzword and there was not really any intention on doing so. And it's why I've pulled my financial support from this game after supporting it continuously (and on multiple accounts) for years.
I'm not naïve, so I know that I'm nothing more than a line in a database (irony?) with an account number and a credit card number attached to it to a large company like this. It that I feel like we were given meaningless lip service, that has left this bitter taste in my mouth. Because they never really cared about us, the players.
Communication from ZOS besides the really flat Q&A might have done a lot. Instead silence only caused us to speculate and imagine worst case scenarios, and instead of addressing the additional concerns we have and opening lines of communication and actually engaging with us, they let us wallow in our misery. I even made a separate thread about it here, it actually got the attention of one of the CMs who responded:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598936/in-the-future-maybe-ask-your-players-for-more-ideas-about-things#latest
In the end though, they chose to remain silent, and we still wallow in misery. That's ok because my wallet is now silent. My sub ran out yesterday, and no craft bag or housing or bank limits are going to get me to open it back up again. I won't be actively playing on live. I'll continue to test on PTS this patch and report bugs, but as long as the game world on live remains in a broken state, which seems likely as the bugs and issues remain unfixed with not a single period of acknowledgement, I will not play their broken game.
Edited by Kesstryl on March 11, 2022 5:09PMHEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.7 -
Zorrin✭✭✭✭✭I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
I didn't have time to do much testing, but map auto-completion is definitely still there. I tried to get NPCs to talk to a new character, but I couldn't get it to trigger. I'm inclined to believe it was just being uncooperative, but I would be so happy if they at least fixed the NPC reactions.4 -
deleted221106-002999✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
@AlnilamE I was aware the incomplete skyshards could be seen from the tooltip; that was not the point of my observation. The point was the apparent disconnect between 'character' and 'account and that different parts of the interface were showing radically different information.Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Skyshards still need to be character specific.
They, too, exist in a superposition of states where the achievement is flagged as done but the zone guide says 'x of y' completed with no indication which ones any given character still has to do. It's just stupid.
Wait...you haven't done this because with the 'crack open a walnut with a sledgehammer' approach you'd have to wipe out ALL current skyshard progression, just like you did with museum quests, meaning characters who'd already completed them would have to redo them.
What a broken mess.
I think you can see which skyshards you are missing on a character if you go into the actual Zone Guide (not the summary on the map) and hover over the skyshard count. But it's a couple more steps than you need to take now.
I took the view that skyshards should have been completely separate, character-specifics a view, incidentally, I retain.
The latter part of my comment was an epiphany as I realised/understood why zos had not separated skyshards as they'd done with museum quests. I kept my opinions muted beyond the initial observation for obvious reasons (self-defence against neo-fascist redaction).
edit: removed orphaned phrase
Edited by deleted221106-002999 on March 11, 2022 5:18PM6 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »I'm not going to white-knight the decisions that have been made. I will just say that I don't personally see any reason to second-guess
I'm not going to white-night their solution, but there are a lot of factors that go into such decisions, and we are missing most of that information. Without all the facts, it's really hard to say that this wasn't the best of many bad options. I reserve judgement on the technical side of things, even if I can think of many ways to address the technical side differently.DarcyMardin wrote: »For people who are looking for a reliable way to back up and save for posterity your character-specific data before Monday:
LibAchievementsArchive
@code65536 , thanks so much for making this library. One question -- I have more than one account. Can I use this library to store the achievement data for all my characters across all 4 accounts, or should I somehow separate them? Thanks!
At quick glance into the saved variables file, it saves Server/account/character name, so you can use it for all your accounts on either server.
(But Code can confirm)
After logging through all 18 characters... the stored data (in this addon)
131 KB... I use like 50x that data to stream a single song to my phone over a wireless network
I struggle mightily to understand how this is going to save the game and fix performance issues. But I'm not a database engineer, just somebody who understands numbers and relative size.
Also this is in lua, which is basically plain text. A database can store this in a fraction of the space, with redundancy.silvereyes wrote: »
It really isn't. Not for a data-driven software service catering to a theoretical 19 million people (which, let's be honest, most are going to be in cold storage)
Just to go into this in further detail, because I also wanted to address this:On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50kB of achievement data per character.
50kB should be considered a worst-case scenario. If what is being said is an accurate representation of how ZOS is dealing with the data on the server side (and… honestly, who knows)… then this is less than 1MB per account (assuming maximum of 18 characters being 900kB), and if we assume 1MB (rounding up)… now multiply that by all the accounts and work out an average. ZOS's last statement about accounts was somewhere just over 19 million, collectively, if I recall.Thanks for the explanation!
And their servers must be on life support if scavenging just 50kb per character is going to make or break performant-ness!
This is… 19TB (again, rounding up here, 900kB would end up being more around 17TB). That's immense and, quite frankly, nonsensical.aaaaI also find it amusing that instead of data being eliminated, it will simply be transferred to addons. Will that negate any potential performance benefits? I’m not a professional coder, so I’m not sure how that works. Does it only impact the client, or do the data calls add to the server load?
It's effectively transferring the work from the server to the client. That said, any performance impact is negligible. While writing LibAchievementsArchive, I had taken some measurements to see how long it took to fully back up a character's achievement data...
The entire process of reading, processing, and encoding all of the data for all 3219 achievements for a character (which includes associated progress data; e.g., "Humanoid Slayer" is a single achievement with three separate requirements of killing 1000 humanoids, 500 goblins, and 100 giants) took something on the order of 30ms (0.03s).
On the server side of things, each achievement costs ZOS just 128 bits (16 bytes): their APIs reveal that they have a 64-bit field into which the various progress data is packed, and another 64-bit field for the timestamp. Multiply that by 3219 achievements (the highest valid achievement ID this patch), and we're looking at around 50KB of achievement data per character.
The impact on the client is trivial, but that also suggests a somewhat limited impact for leaving it on the server.
you are neglecting it's database stuff.
One 4k movie is a lot less of an issue than equivalent byte database table with super small data per entry...
a 10GB database with 300M 32byte entries will behave quite different than a 10GB one with 300k 32kbyte entries.
and you forgot to count charid plus achieveid in your space sumup.
We don't know how things work exactly on the backend, but there's no evidence to suggest that all of the characters' achievements in the game are just dumped into a flat database.
Perhaps not a flat database, but character loads do seem to take longer on older characters with more achievements (and other progression) than brand new character loads. If both had a fixed width binary object with all the data connected to the main character record, they should theoretically take the same amount of time to load.
Also, remember what they said: "By reducing the amount of data we have to store, the database doesn’t have to work as hard so the time it takes to search...." (emphasis mine).
This means that achievements must be in a separate data store that, at the very least, has to do a lookup. Even if it's just by character id and not achievement id too, switching to a lookup by account id could still cut the index size significantly.
Yes, but could fixing that be done within the time constraints they seem to be operating under?And if they did drop the ball, then fixing that would yield far more dividends than whatever they're doing in this patch.
Agreed. The client is interacting with a cache.Accessing achievement information does not incur any server hits (it would simply be impossible for me to query all 3219 achievements in a fraction of my ping time if any part of that required a server hit), which means that all of the achievement data is transferred to the client when the character is loaded
Not sure I follow. How is the fact that there is a cache indicative in any way of the backing database architecture?all achievement queries happen locally on the client. Which would suggest that achievements are stored as a blob and not individual database entries.
They never promised any performance benefits to the player. They threw in some theoretical "may" verbiage about load screens and database-heavy operations, but almost as a side-effect, not their motivation for the change. They called out that the "most important" bit was preserving their ability to add "more content and achievements in the future".I have been skeptical--and remain so--of any purported performance benefits of AwA. After all, if there really was a significant gain, wouldn't ZOS have stated that from the get-go instead of pulling the performance card late in the game only in the face of controversy?
They're probably trying to improve performance impacts for themselves, not for us. Like, for example, players logging in and out of toons for daily writs and random normal dungeons. If this loading is causing a bandwidth issue, I understand what they are trying to do, but it's really a fundamental game design issue that encourages this behavior in first place, and their "solution" is just awful decision making.
Still, the end result on the community is heartbreaking, and it deserves some introspection from ZOS to figure out how they arrived at this point. Even if all their decisions were the best they could have made under the circumstances, perhaps there's something they can do as a company to ensure similar circumstances don't lead to future no-win scenarios like this.
I really wish that there had been someone in power that had insisted that ripping out character progression tracking and journal was a red line not to cross - for the identity of the game if nothing else - and they needed to shift project timelines or content releases or whatever else was needed to regroup and find a different technical solution. If that's the sort of thing that just can't happen for whatever reason, maybe the best question for them to ask at this point is, why not?
That's why we've asked (repeatedly) for that information. For a justification. For somebody to explain why.
We got one tiny squeak (from the Q&A), then nothing. Radio silence.
And then to still be told "we're working on our communication"...
It's proof that the word "communication" was used as buzzword and there was not really any intention on doing so. And it's why I've pulled my financial support from this game after supporting it continuously (and on multiple accounts) for years.
I'm not naïve, so I know that I'm nothing more than a line in a database (irony?) with an account number and a credit card number attached to it to a large company like this. It that I feel like we were given meaningless lip service, that has left this bitter taste in my mouth. Because they never really cared about us, the players.
Communication from ZOS besides the really flat Q&A might have done a lot. Instead silence only caused us to speculate and imagine worst case scenarios, and instead of addressing the additional concerns we have and opening lines of communication and actually engaging with us, they let us wallow in our misery. I even made a separate thread about it here, it actually got the attention of one of the CMs who responded:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598936/in-the-future-maybe-ask-your-players-for-more-ideas-about-things#latest
In the end though, they chose to remain silent, and we still wallow in misery. That's ok because my wallet is now silent. My sub ran out yesterday, and no craft bag or housing or bank limits are going to get me to open it back up again. I won't be actively playing on live. I'll continue to test on PTS and report bugs, but as long as the game world on live remains in a broken state, which seems likely as the bugs and issues remain unfixed with not a single period of acknowledgement, I will not play their broken game.
The Q&A was a step.
Introduce new thing that is a big change. Players are upset.
Community managers notice players are upset, relay that to the development team.
They produce the Q&A.
Community managers notice that the Q&A did not even really touch on the issues brought up, players are even more confused and bewildered. They relay the further developments to the dev team saying that the players really need some clarification on this change.
@ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_RobGarrett or @ZOS_RichLambert then step in and give an official reply that takes into account what has been asked, explaining what is happening, why it's happening, what we can specifically hope to gain from it, and actually try and sell the idea to the players.
That is what communication is.
Edit: Typo... because my communication should be clear as well.Edited by tmbrinks on March 11, 2022 5:19PMTenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger65,385 achievement points15 -
deleted221106-002999✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@code65536 and @silvereyes many thanks for your community minded attempts to provide some palliative care for the broken mess of account-wide achievements.
Your attempts, while laudable, do nothing to absolve zos of the responsibility for the fiasco of this implementation nor their deafening silence in the face of customer complaints.
edit:typosEdited by deleted221106-002999 on March 11, 2022 5:12PM22 -
deleted221106-002999✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
As far as I can tell all museum quests are reset so characters who had completed them will have to redo them; ironically the achievement (account-wide) is done if any one charcter has completed it. For museum quests that give a mural or factotum, for example, those seem repeatable so you can still earn mulitple pieces, although I've not gone through one to completion to confirm this. Thieves Guild Kari's hit list is an exception: the hit-list is reset but you don't get the advancement of the thieves guild skill-line on subsequent characters as you do on live - so get those done on alts to boost the skill-line to 3 over the weekend if continuing to play. This latter was tested and confirmed.
Delves and maps are unchanged - they initially look dark if not done but, when you approach auto-turn white and show as completed. The delve boss auto-spawn for first-time characters is still broken so 5+ minute wait if you see any point in grabbing anything other than a skyshard from a delve.
As far as I could tell, NPC reactions remained tied to account-wide so a neophyte 3rd level soul-shriven ragman is still treated is as the saviour of the known universe. I didn't check broken stros m'kai quest so no idea on that one.14 -
SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭As on console, spreadsheets created & ESO App updated for all 18 characters so have some idea of what can do…….
(Trying to make the best of something which is fundamentally FUBAR)1 -
Mycelius✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »For people who are looking for a reliable way to back up and save for posterity your character-specific data before Monday:
LibAchievementsArchive
A million thanks to @code65536 for this library.
I whipped up a quick integration into the Quest Journal for that library into Update 33, so that any completed achievements in the archive are displayed as character-specific, even achievement links.
Character Achievements addon
It's backwards compatible with live, if you want to load it up now, but it won't do anything until Update 33 drops.
A thousand thanks!
2 -
Wolfkeks✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
All museum quests are now reset, even for characters that already did them. But you can still use the titles and everything that is attached to them.
Tested the Sweetroll Killer test. I've wanted to see if you could start the quest on a new character that had the EP and Goldcoast quest achievements but hadn't done the quest so far. Quest didn't trigger, so it looks like they made sure that (at least) this quest would only start if you actually did the required quests before and it is not tied to the achievements. Gonna see if that is also the case for the other quests later.
Map is still bugged. If you walk towards a delve that another char did for example it will show as complete. Also does this for towns that should only shown as complete when you did the quests for them.
Empress Refent Clivia Tharn is still angry that my baby char has the AwA for Empeor and still insults me for it even though this particually character only fired a ballista once. (Ergo NPC dialogue might still be tied to the achievements, at least in this case)
If you want something else tested just let me know
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - FadomaiFormer Emperor, Grand Overlord, vAA hm, vHelRa hm, vSO hm, vMoL hm, vHoF hm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSS hm, vKA, vRG, Flawless Conquerer, Spirit Slayer9 -
Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?
As far as I can tell all museum quests are reset so characters who had completed them will have to redo them; ironically the achievement (account-wide) is done if any one charcter has completed it. For museum quests that give a mural or factotum, for example, those seem repeatable so you can still earn mulitple pieces, although I've not gone through one to completion to confirm this. Thieves Guild Kari's hit list is an exception: the hit-list is reset but you don't get the advancement of the thieves guild skill-line on subsequent characters as you do on live - so get those done on alts to boost the skill-line to 3 over the weekend if continuing to play. This latter was tested and confirmed.
Delves and maps are unchanged - they initially look dark if not done but, when you approach auto-turn white and show as completed. The delve boss auto-spawn for first-time characters is still broken so 5+ minute wait if you see any point in grabbing anything other than a skyshard from a delve.
As far as I could tell, NPC reactions remained tied to account-wide so a neophyte 3rd level soul-shriven ragman is still treated is as the saviour of the known universe. I didn't check broken stros m'kai quest so no idea on that one.
Maybe it would be good to post specific instances of NPCs addressing alts incorrectly as bugs in the bug report thread? Maybe if we show ZOS exactly where the narrative is breaking down, it might help them put fixing these bugs in their que? One can hope anyway, even if it's microscopic.
Edited by Kesstryl on March 11, 2022 10:34PMHEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you want something else tested just let me know
Would you be willing to pick up a Dragonguard Berserker page in the IC sewers and test whether the style is character bound, as ZOS says in the preview, or if it's actually account bound and available to your non-pvp characters?The Dragonguard Berserker styles will be bound to your character, so the only way to acquire this impressive armor is to earn it through battle.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61715RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.1 -
Wolfkeks✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you want something else tested just let me know
Would you be willing to pick up a Dragonguard Berserker page in the IC sewers and test whether the style is character bound, as ZOS says in the preview, or if it's actually account bound and available to your non-pvp characters?The Dragonguard Berserker styles will be bound to your character, so the only way to acquire this impressive armor is to earn it through battle.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61715
Tested.
You can only buy them with a character with rank 20 or higher. Characters under the rank of 20, even if they have the achievement via AwA can't buy the item. These pages are character bound and you can't put them in your bank for other characters to use it (which does not really matter since it is a style page and therefore account wide, after you learn it on one character it is avaiblible for all characters). After buying them they dissapear from the Tel Var General Merchant so you can't see them anymore or accidently buy them again.
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - FadomaiFormer Emperor, Grand Overlord, vAA hm, vHelRa hm, vSO hm, vMoL hm, vHoF hm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSS hm, vKA, vRG, Flawless Conquerer, Spirit Slayer5 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you want something else tested just let me know
Would you be willing to pick up a Dragonguard Berserker page in the IC sewers and test whether the style is character bound, as ZOS says in the preview, or if it's actually account bound and available to your non-pvp characters?The Dragonguard Berserker styles will be bound to your character, so the only way to acquire this impressive armor is to earn it through battle.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61715
Tested.
You can only buy them with a character with rank 20 or higher. Characters under the rank of 20, even if they have the achievement via AwA can't buy the item. These pages are character bound and you can't put them in your bank for other characters to use it (which does not really matter since it is a style page and therefore account wide, after you learn it on one character it is avaiblible for all characters). After buying them they dissapear from the Tel Var General Merchant so you can't see them anymore or accidently buy them again.
Thank you so much! The account wide thing I was wondering about, since the announcement made it seem like the style page application was character bound, unlike all other style pages which can be applied by all your characters.
Edited by Jaraal on March 12, 2022 12:07AMRIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.1 -
wenchmore420b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on March 12, 2022 3:21AMDrakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP ~Doesn't matter any more
NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
GM~Conclave-of-Shadows, EP Social Guild, ~Proud member of: The Wandering Merchants, Phoenix Rising, Imperial Trade Union & Celestials of Nirn
Sister Guilds with: Coroner's Report, Children of Skyrim, Sunshine Daydream, Tamriel Fisheries, Knights Arcanum and more
"Not All Who Wander are Lost"
#MOREHOUSINGSLOTS“When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”
_Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)19 -
sean.plackerb14_ESO✭✭✭✭Ugh this is the first I've looked into anything regarding the PTS. Sounds like when the update goes live things are gonna be really fun...
I can buy them gaining some performance on the backend since the server dose not have to check achievements per char but account wide. But if you can't do it without breaking a lot of quests, functions (delve/town maps), NPC background dialog that doesn't apply to the char you are playing etc. Then maybe hold off a bit?Edited by sean.plackerb14_ESO on March 12, 2022 1:42AM@sean8102 - Carlore - Daggerfall Covenant12 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What really concerns me is the implication that in order for them to keep adding new data, they're going to have to keep deleting or otherwise removing other things. They're saying that by removing data that needs to be read they're getting a performance boost on the back end, and yet...every new system they add is going to add to the data that needs to be retrieved at any given time. So what else is going to end up getting cut in the future in order for them to keep cutting down on the data that needs to be accessed in order to add new data that will need to be accessed? The answer shouldn't be to remove what we have, it should be to expand your database. I'm fairly sure Microsoft can afford to get more data or get a more stable database or do whatever needs to be done to ensure we don't lose more than we gain over the coming years.Character List [RP and PvE]:Stands-Against-Death: Argonian Magplar Healer - Crafter
Krisiel: Redguard Stamsorc DPS - Literally crazy Werewolf, no like legit insane. She nuts
Kiju Veran: Khajiit Stamblade DPS - Ex-Fighters Guild Suthay who likes to punch things, nicknamed Tinykat
Niralae Elsinal: Altmer Stamsorc DPS - Young Altmer with way too much Magicka
Sarah Lacroix: Breton Magsorc DPS - Fledgling Vampire who drinks too much water
Slondor: Nord Tankblade - TESified verson of Slenderman
Marius Vastino: Imperial <insert role here> - Sarah's apathetic sire who likes to monologue
Delthor Rellenar: Dunmer Magknight DPS - Sarah's ex who's a certified psychopath
Lirawyn Calatare: Altmer Magplar Healer - Traveling performer and bard who's 101% vanilla bean
Gondryn Beldeau: Breton Tankplar - Sarah's Mages Guild mentor and certified badass old person
Gwendolyn Jenelle: Breton Magplar Healer - Friendly healer with a coffee addiction
Soliril Larethian- Altmer Magblade DPS - Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time
Tevril Rallenar: Dunmer Stamcro DPS - Delthor's "special" younger brother who raises small animals as friends
Celeroth Calatare: Bosmer <insert role here> - Shapeshifting Bosmer with enough sass to fill Valenwood
PC - NA - EP - CP1000+
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!13 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
As I thought. People wanted simple, easy, realistically credible games. Not collectible, modern games. Sigh.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
I never got the impression that they were doing AwA to make room for the card game. In fact, I think they are doing AwA, and are in a hurry, because they need it done before the High Isle achievements hit the game. Putting it out in Update 33 allows them to fix things before High Isle. I also think that this is in conjunction with performance analysis that was completed last year while they were investigating Cyrodiil performance. This is not to say that it will impact Cyrodiil performance.
Aside: This thread is not about the card game, but I suggested that they consider tavern games, including a Legends style card game, integrated with ESO on more than one occasion. It is not a bad idea.1 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
I never got the impression that they were doing AwA to make room for the card game. In fact, I think they are doing AwA, and are in a hurry, because they need it done before the High Isle achievements hit the game. Putting it out in Update 33 allows them to fix things before High Isle. I also think that this is in conjunction with performance analysis that was completed last year while they were investigating Cyrodiil performance. This is not to say that it will impact Cyrodiil performance.
Aside: This thread is not about the card game, but I suggested that they consider tavern games, including a Legends style card game, integrated with ESO on more than one occasion. It is not a bad idea.
To fix what?
And no, a collectible card game inside an MMO is a terrible idea. It is violently immersion-breaking. What, the local farmer travelled far and wide to get his grand cardgame, in a world where you get murdered for spare change, leaving his turnips to rot and his family to starve? Yikes, makes even Dark Brotherhood look nice in comparison. :P7 -
Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »Quoted post has been removed.
Here is my post from another thread.
Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games
Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...
I never got the impression that they were doing AwA to make room for the card game. In fact, I think they are doing AwA, and are in a hurry, because they need it done before the High Isle achievements hit the game. Putting it out in Update 33 allows them to fix things before High Isle. I also think that this is in conjunction with performance analysis that was completed last year while they were investigating Cyrodiil performance. This is not to say that it will impact Cyrodiil performance.
Aside: This thread is not about the card game, but I suggested that they consider tavern games, including a Legends style card game, integrated with ESO on more than one occasion. It is not a bad idea.
Well, you kind of said it right there with High Isle Achievements, and that includes achievements with the Card Game. I'm thinking there will probably be a lot of achievements associated with it which to them is more important than our individual character histories and identity.
If they are going to fix the bugs that were not fixed with these patches for AwA during the interim until High Isle WHY DON'T THEY JUST SAY SO! It would have saved a lot of us some headache over broken NPCs and quests, though they're not going to save the heartache from the loss of our individual character histories. I just want the game world to still make sense for my alts. The silence only intensifies the anger and grief. If some of these things do get fixed, I'm going to be like Jane Foster (in Thor: The Dark World) slapping Thor in the face when she was both happy to see him and pissed off that he never communicated with her during his absence.
Edited by Kesstryl on March 12, 2022 4:12PMHEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.7 -
RarodSoul ShrivenHi all,
It seems there are a lot of talks about the account wild achievements, I created the post with some thoughts abouts, ZoS closed and asked to discuss it withing this thread.
Pls take a look, the solution proposed seems optimal and keeps the needed informations without many changes:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/599598/account-wild-achievements-the-optimal-solution
Let's hope we will be heard
Thanks1 -
skyrimfantasy✭✭✭✭At this point you're beating a dead horse. There have been suggestions after suggestions, pleas after pleas, and all of it has been ignored as far as we know - which is really nothing because there is no communication beyond us being told this is the way it's going to be and that's that.18 -
saar✭✭✭I can't go through all these comments and I can't find it in patch notes, but did they fix the broken progression on museum furnishing quests on alts?0 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If you mean the fact that the progression was reset on PTS, then no, that has not been fixed. However, all the achievements are character-specific now, so presumably, they will copy their progress correctly on live, the same as other character-specific achievements do.I can't go through all these comments and I can't find it in patch notes, but did they fix the broken progression on museum furnishing quests on alts?[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com1 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭silvereyes wrote: »Also just released.
Character Zone Tracker addon
Install that on live and log in to each of your characters in order to preserve character completion for delves, world bosses and world events (e.g. dolmens, geysers).
PSA: the initial release neglected to back up Craglorn group delves! The newest version fixes this. Please update to the newest version and then log in on any characters with Craglorn group delve progress to record.[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com3 -
ListerJMC✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thanks for the addons Code and silvereyes! I spent today backing everything up. It makes me a bit less sad to have these PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
"Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."2 -
LesserCircle✭✭✭✭✭Isn't it interesting that people who are are against this change are for the most part passionate about it, writing detailed, multi-paragraphed explanations as to why it disrupts how they approach the game, yet those in favor usually write brief, vague remarks supporting it?
I'm genuinely curious why that is.
I'm genuinely curious to know what would you say if you agreed with a change. People who don't like AwA will of course write long explanations with all the reasons as to why they don't like it, people complaining will always be the loud ones and it's completely understandable. We're not on opposite sides tho, even tho I like the change I'm not happy about people not having a better option to their liking. Just don't try to invalidate my positive opinion.3 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LesserCircle wrote: »Isn't it interesting that people who are are against this change are for the most part passionate about it, writing detailed, multi-paragraphed explanations as to why it disrupts how they approach the game, yet those in favor usually write brief, vague remarks supporting it?
I'm genuinely curious why that is.
I'm genuinely curious to know what would you say if you agreed with a change. People who don't like AwA will of course write long explanations with all the reasons as to why they don't like it, people complaining will always be the loud ones and it's completely understandable. We're not on opposite sides tho, even tho I like the change I'm not happy about people not having a better option to their liking. Just don't try to invalidate my positive opinion.
I tend to be somewhat verbose about things, but that also includes things that I find favorable. My observation was simply about the amount of description given by folks on both sides of the issue. But I get what you're saying. People who like the way things are going probably don't feel the need to try and change the minds of others, whereas those who stand to lose need to explain why they don't want to have long standing things taken away.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.1 -
RaddlemanNumber7✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I was just on PTS trying a few things out. I put vamp on a new character for the stealth passives, fed on some random guy to get the character up to stage 2, and then...
Ding! "Vampire Feast", 100th bite - achieved 3/13/2022 by Nobody Much (for his very first bite ever). And there's no way back.
This kind of nonsense is really going to hurt some people when AwA hits live. Such bad design.PC EU23 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have the add-ons ready but I'm still worried. I also feel bad for those who play on console who don't have these options.
In light of all the feedback and concerns I think it would be reasonable to put this patch on hold for now.PCNA15