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In the future, maybe ask your players for more ideas about things?

Kesstryl
Kesstryl
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ZOS, When I look back at feedback given for various things, and confusion or outrage by the community about decisions made, it might be a good idea for ZOS to start asking us some of the things we'd like to see or want implemented. I'm wondering if the devs and team might be confused about all this anger this patch, and this kind of thing could have been alleviated by asking the community for ideas. Not just a yes or no answer, like would you like Account Wide Achievements (duh), but asking HOW we would like to see things implemented. I can think of numerous other examples where something presented really missed the mark of what the community wanted. Take the Isle of Balfiera for example, not only did using it for new tutorials dash the hopes of those who wanted Direnni content, but the tutorial itself missed the mark of the community actually wanting to pick which beginner tutorial they wanted a character to start with. Now all those older tutorials will never be seen again, and what we got is not what we really wanted. How about a little more transparency with us and involving us a little more in idea sharing? All this hush secrecy that you think will spoil whatever you have in the pipeline has not really helped when it comes to communicating with us and being blindsided by us when we get angry about what we got. Is it really worth all this? I remember one time when you asked our feedback about changing light and heavy attacks, let us test it, and then nixed it when our feedback was not favorable. Couldn't you do more things like this again? Trust us a little more? Allow us to let you know what we want so we all win?
HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.
  • MasterSpatula
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    Also, better engagement (because that's the real problem, a lack of communication yes, but more specifically a lack of engagement) could prevent you from falling into the "squeaky wheel" trap, where the members of the community who really want X talk about it nonstop for eight years while those who prefer the way it is have nothing to say, making it look like the community wants X when it's more like a 50/50 split.

    More engagement can help you better tell the difference between "squeaky wheels" and "the community." Better engagement can also help you anticipate the issues and bugs to come with big, sweeping changes. The community will even think of things you didn't anticipate! (And, from past and present experience, I do mean will, not might.)

    A company that values engagement wouldn't announce a big, sweeping, and disruptive change a month before it goes live. They'd consult the community when they first consider doing it. A company that values engagement wouldn't even consider not doing so.

    Kevin's doing a good job improving communication, but engagement means more than Kevin, Gina, and Jess. It means Rich. It means Wheeler. It means Matt. It means not just people whose job is the community talk to the community. It means people who set the tone for the game talk to the community. It means they want to. It means they consider it vital.
    "A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle
  • McTaterskins
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    Playing their own game on a consistent basis other than using exploits in vet DLC dungeons on a live stream would probably also go a long way toward engagement and understanding.

    ...and credibility.
    Edited by McTaterskins on February 24, 2022 4:26PM
  • ealdwin
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    I recall a comment a streamer (can't remember who specifically) made in a video a while ago about the Stone Giant* implementation that ZOS seems to like to do their own thing. The community may come up with great ideas and ideas that are really simple and beneficial for the game. But ZOS (based on their track record) seems allergic to that feedback and instead goes with an idea entirely of their own. By all appearances it seems that they actively go out of their way to avoid a community idea in favor of a home-grown one.

    Now, not every community idea is the best for the game. But, consider as OP mentions the Balfiera tutorial implementation. The community largely agreed that what they wanted was the ability to choose which tutorial they went through based on where they wanted to start. Players wanted to be able to, for instance, go through the Coldharbour tutorial to get a good start to the Base Game Main Quest. ZOS, however, chose an implementation that created one universal tutorial and a portal-start system. One where players who choose the Alliance starts end up in the starter islands and then deal with confusion of being referred to as having no soul and only a few zones later finding their way through Coldharbour and back to those starter islands.

    There's been some very significant parts of ESO that affect the experience of the players where gathering feedback and making adjustments based on that feedback would have been for the better. The tutorial system would have been a great one. But the current method of putting a system on the pts and then steaming ahead with (apparent) little regard for user feedback feels like feedback is not desired. Responding to and considering feedback doesn't even have to mean changes. All it has to mean is active communication and honest explanations for why something is being done and why something cannot be done.

    *I believe it was about Stone Giant, though it was a good time ago and my memory is fuzzy on the specific details about who was speaking and about what change.
  • Finedaible
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    I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing here, but from my viewpoint, it has always felt like ZoS rejects community-based ideas or even just logical changes to the game based on some sense of false-pride or perhaps some fear of not being original enough to set themselves apart from other MMOs. Original ideas can be great, but there's also value in the tried-and-true methods, not everything needs to be original simply for the sake of being original; The approach to Wardens' "pets" being a good example in my opinion.

    I don't know, it just feels like their creative vision for the game is often at odds with what players consider to be fun and engaging.
  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    Kesstryl wrote: »
    ZOS, When I look back at feedback given for various things, and confusion or outrage by the community about decisions made, it might be a good idea for ZOS to start asking us some of the things we'd like to see or want implemented. I'm wondering if the devs and team might be confused about all this anger this patch, and this kind of thing could have been alleviated by asking the community for ideas. Not just a yes or no answer, like would you like Account Wide Achievements (duh), but asking HOW we would like to see things implemented. I can think of numerous other examples where something presented really missed the mark of what the community wanted. Take the Isle of Balfiera for example, not only did using it for new tutorials dash the hopes of those who wanted Direnni content, but the tutorial itself missed the mark of the community actually wanting to pick which beginner tutorial they wanted a character to start with. Now all those older tutorials will never be seen again, and what we got is not what we really wanted. How about a little more transparency with us and involving us a little more in idea sharing? All this hush secrecy that you think will spoil whatever you have in the pipeline has not really helped when it comes to communicating with us and being blindsided by us when we get angry about what we got. Is it really worth all this? I remember one time when you asked our feedback about changing light and heavy attacks, let us test it, and then nixed it when our feedback was not favorable. Couldn't you do more things like this again? Trust us a little more? Allow us to let you know what we want so we all win?

    Well said.
    I want to start with my horror of how they took something as important to lore as the Isle of Balfiera and the Adamantine Tower and wasted it on a "Tutorial". Why????

    But to your main point.
    As I have stated in other threads, at launch (2013-2015) they had a group of select GM's and players that would have "Roundtable" discussions with the devs and managers once a month to discuss ideas, problems, solutions, etc. But that went away after a couple years.

    ZoS used to invite community players to come to ZoS headquarters to test play new content and give their feedback and opinions on new content before it was "etched in stone". They haven't done that in several years tho.

    Yes, ZoS USED to work with the community and listen to concerns and ideas. Not sure why this has changed over last 3-4 years. Perhaps the production deadlines are so tight that they can't dwell on "good or bad" ideas and just get it done regardless.
    Just my 2 drakes. Truly enjoy your responses as they are all concise and well written. Thank You.
    Huzzah!
    Edited by wenchmore420b14_ESO on February 24, 2022 6:49PM
    Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP ~Doesn't matter any more
    NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
    GM~Conclave-of-Shadows, EP Social Guild, ~Proud member of: The Wandering Merchants, Phoenix Rising, Imperial Trade Union & Celestials of Nirn
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  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    Whilst I am fully in support of what you have eloquently & truthfully written, my cynical nature and the previous history of Zos just make me want to say “Good luck with that.”
  • duagloth
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    Maybe if they listened instead of silencing people and burying posts/threads.
  • Fennwitty
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    ealdwin wrote: »
    I recall a comment a streamer (can't remember who specifically) made in a video a while ago about the Stone Giant* implementation that ZOS seems to like to do their own thing. The community may come up with great ideas and ideas that are really simple and beneficial for the game. But ZOS (based on their track record) seems allergic to that feedback and instead goes with an idea entirely of their own. By all appearances it seems that they actively go out of their way to avoid a community idea in favor of a home-grown one.

    I completely agree and have felt the same way for years.

    ZoS sees an idea, and goes out of its way to avoid using it -- they always have to invent something unique and original even if it doesn't make good sense.

    It's like they play Monkey's Paw with things players ask for.

    "We know you asked for accountwide achievements ... but what if we did it like THIS! *evil laugh*"
    Edited by Fennwitty on February 24, 2022 8:50PM
    PC NA
  • ZOS_Kevin
    ZOS_Kevin
    Community Manager
    @Kesstryl Thanks for your feedback and thoughts here. We will pass these along to the dev team, but wanted to give a bit of context as well. Especially since you took the time to explain your point so well.

    We appreciate the distinction made between communication and engagement as @MasterSpatula pointed out, as it gets to the heart of what several of you have noted in this thread. We are constantly having conversations internally about how to improve some of these processes and get to a good balance of communication and engagement. The bar changes as games and industry evolve, so it is a process we are working on. Your feedback, positive and negative, helps in this effort. We do recognize there is a need from some of the community for more hands-on community experience. Some of that has been hindered by the pandemic. As we are not back in the office yet, it would be difficult to do some hands-on player experience with community members outside of PTS. However as stated before, we are working on improving the process.

    Along with that, the development process is a complicated one. One with many moving parts and your feedback is one important part of that process. The dev team uses a variety of tools and metrics along with user feedback to make choices that are beneficial to the long-term success of ESO. Some of this info is not available to players as they are internal metrics and tools. This disconnect can sometimes cause friction between player expectation and dev implementation. Again, this does circle back to how we communicate information around systems/features and we will continue to work on that process.

    Lastly, to a few points made regarding the silencing or burying of posts. This is not happening. If players break community guidelines while trying to express their thoughts, posts will be edited or removed. Not in an effort to silence, but because guidelines were broken. You are free to repost with content that does not break community guidelines. If anyone feels or suspects a post are being silenced or buried, please feel free to reach out to me and I will look into that personally. I will at the very least be able to provide an explanation.

    Hopefully, this helps provide some context. Trust is needed on both sides for ESO to succeed and we can get there. We really do appreciate the feedback across the board. Please feel free to continue to add to the conversation.

    Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter
    Staff Post
  • McTaterskins
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

    Hopefully, this helps provide some context. Trust is needed on both sides for ESO to succeed and we can get there. We really do appreciate the feedback across the board. Please feel free to continue to add to the conversation.

    @ZOS_Kevin - Hey! Thanks for taking the time and giving a response! Very much appreciated!
  • _Zathras_
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

    Lastly, to a few points made regarding the silencing or burying of posts. This is not happening. If players break community guidelines while trying to express their thoughts, posts will be edited or removed. Not in an effort to silence, but because guidelines were broken.

    Hi Kevin.

    Will all due respect, this is happening. I just watched several posts get removed a few minutes ago. I've seen several others disappear in the last couple of days. Gone. Not snipped.

    I understand that the AWA is causing a lot of friction on both sides, but let's be real about the excessive moderation. There are comments that do not exceed the community guidelines, yet are being censored because they aren't wanted.

    Honestly, it is bad enough how this is all happening. It doesn't help that some moderators are over-reaching by sanitizing discussions.


    Edited by _Zathras_ on February 24, 2022 10:58PM
  • duagloth
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    _Zathras_ wrote: »
    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

    Lastly, to a few points made regarding the silencing or burying of posts. This is not happening. If players break community guidelines while trying to express their thoughts, posts will be edited or removed. Not in an effort to silence, but because guidelines were broken.

    Hi Kevin.

    Will all due respect, this is happening. I just watched several posts get removed a few minutes ago. I've seen several others disappear in the last couple of days. Gone. Not snipped.

    I understand that the AWA is causing a lot of friction on both sides, but let's be real about the excessive moderation. There are comments that do not exceed the community guidelines, yet are being censored because they aren't wanted.

    Honestly, it is bad enough how this is all happening. It doesn't help that some moderators are over-reaching by sanitizing discussions.


    this by 1000%
  • Kesstryl
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @Kesstryl Thanks for your feedback and thoughts here. We will pass these along to the dev team, but wanted to give a bit of context as well. Especially since you took the time to explain your point so well.

    We appreciate the distinction made between communication and engagement as @MasterSpatula pointed out, as it gets to the heart of what several of you have noted in this thread. We are constantly having conversations internally about how to improve some of these processes and get to a good balance of communication and engagement. The bar changes as games and industry evolve, so it is a process we are working on. Your feedback, positive and negative, helps in this effort. We do recognize there is a need from some of the community for more hands-on community experience. Some of that has been hindered by the pandemic. As we are not back in the office yet, it would be difficult to do some hands-on player experience with community members outside of PTS. However as stated before, we are working on improving the process.

    Along with that, the development process is a complicated one. One with many moving parts and your feedback is one important part of that process. The dev team uses a variety of tools and metrics along with user feedback to make choices that are beneficial to the long-term success of ESO. Some of this info is not available to players as they are internal metrics and tools. This disconnect can sometimes cause friction between player expectation and dev implementation. Again, this does circle back to how we communicate information around systems/features and we will continue to work on that process.

    Lastly, to a few points made regarding the silencing or burying of posts. This is not happening. If players break community guidelines while trying to express their thoughts, posts will be edited or removed. Not in an effort to silence, but because guidelines were broken. You are free to repost with content that does not break community guidelines. If anyone feels or suspects a post are being silenced or buried, please feel free to reach out to me and I will look into that personally. I will at the very least be able to provide an explanation.

    Hopefully, this helps provide some context. Trust is needed on both sides for ESO to succeed and we can get there. We really do appreciate the feedback across the board. Please feel free to continue to add to the conversation.

    Thank you @ZOS_Kevin for taking time to write a lengthy and insightful reply. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, simply communicating with us. It really does help. Silence can have a negative psychological effect, especially when something we deeply love is changing on a profound level. Your players do have the best interest of the game at heart, that's why we're here. All the anger and lash back is happening because we are invested and deeply love this game. Yeah we're going to disagree on how to make this game better, yeah we're going to not like every change, but hashing those things out with us, especially with more time for our feedback than 5 short weeks before the launch of something controversial could really provide more insight than data collection tools and metrics.

    Data and metrics can only go so far, they can't tell you what's in the mind and heart of the players driving those metrics. Not even the vocal few such as streamers and content creators can speak for all of us. We are too diverse, and you need to pick the brains of all of us together, not just the elite few who stream their Godslayer runs or theory crafters who maul through ball groups in PvP, though no one here will argue the value of their feedback, but also include the RPers, the housing addicts, casuals, and even clueless noobs here since beta who will never achieve Godslayer. We might not always be right, but we could provide insight you haven't thought of, or help you to figure out a way to do something with the creativity and talent of many in your community, simply through an open discussion.

    We're all on this ship together, and when it looks like the captains are steering it through ice bergs, you can't just be silent and expect us to be happy when we see a gaping hole ripping through the side of the ship and the captain is like, everything is fine, you'll love the destination. We cannot be fooled like that. For better or for worse, you've got our hearts invested in this, and you have to deal with how we feel about decisions. It would be better to include us in your decision making process. Even if in the end you still have to go through with something because it simply can't work, at least we won't feel thrown under the bus because you took the time to have the conversation and tried to find a way to make it work long before it was set in stone and developer time was wasted. No one knows better what your players want than your players. No point of data or metric can tell you what's really in our thoughts and heart. Data is good, I use data all the time at my job, it points out trends, can pinpoint red flags, sometimes it can even point out a cause, but it can't really get into minds and hearts. In the end it's just numbers and statistics and you need to go the extra mile to get to the why.

    I've been very vocal, probably quite salty too (sorry for that, I really really really love this game) in the Account Wide Achievements feedback thread, and I really really hope your team is actually reading the multitude of feedback, heartfelt comments, stories, and the pouring out of your community. We have more concerns not addressed in the Q&A, and we desperately need this communication right now. Please give us hope. This is a case where the parents telling the kids "this is the way it is because we know better than you" is just not going to work out in your favor. Sometimes parents have to address the endless stream of "why" that comes the kids, no matter how tedious. Waiting until launch day is not going to work this time. Please dialogue with us.


    Edited for typo
    Edited by Kesstryl on February 25, 2022 1:41AM
    HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.
  • Raevenglass
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    @ZOS_Kevin Thank you for that response! I think this is the type of communication the community is craving in this thread in particular.

    I think it's clear that AwA is going to happen, and some of the conversations here have helped me see where some really want this. I understand the desire for having the dyes. busts, titles across an account. Will I judge you if your level 2 character is supporting the "Godslayer" title, maaayyyybbbbeee a little. But I'll get over it.

    The point is - I can see what those in favor of AwA are excited about. And most of it, I can live with.

    What I am still feeling real pain over is the fact I am going to lose my immersion part of the game that I so enjoy. I still don't understand why I have to lose the gameplay of having alts that are "new" to the world and not viewed by Tamriel as a seasoned veteran.

    Do the developers understand what we are upset about? Do they see our points? Is there a solution that might work?

    Basically - are we being heard?

    Thanks.
  • nightstrike
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    Your feedback, positive and negative, helps in this effort.
    ...
    Along with that, the development process is a complicated one. One with many moving parts and your feedback is one important part of that process. The dev team uses a variety of tools and metrics along with user feedback to make choices that are beneficial to the long-term success of ESO.

    If feedback is as important as you indicate, then perhaps you should address the following issues:
    • Feedback is difficult to provide (a message buried in 70 pages of complaints on a new feature would understandably get missed, /feedback in game is *completely* useless, requests to support are infuriatingly circular, and phone calls go to a /dev/null voicemail (although admittedly, I did get through there once))
    • Feedback is rarely responded to (how many posts are there like this one of yours? Maybe 5 in the past twelve months, if we're being generous?)
    • Feedback has little observed effect (it is extremely rare that feedback on important decisions changes those decisions, and Account Wide Achievements is a great example: the most massive amount of single topic negative feedback you've experienced in years having literally zero effect on the outcome)

    I admit that I am biased by my own experiences in life outside of ESO, but I feel like ESO is too focused on data driven metrics without understanding the human element. I have seen multiple recent examples of developers saying "but the metrics!", without understanding how to accurately translate data to real life. I see this in my professional life, too. But at least there, I have the authority to help guide things toward a more fruitful result.

    If you take even an intro course in philosophy or perhaps discrete math, you will encounter logic problems that try to highlight the difference between "A is a kind of B" and "all B's are A's". An apple is a fruit, therefore all fruits are apples. Most things I read from ZOS staff about "data driven decisions" tend to reveal flawed logic. I can't really point to one and say "well, that makes sense, that makes me feel confident that they know how to balance metrics with player feedback." Empirically, look at how many people ask in various forms, "Do developers actually play this game?"

    Also, I didn't quote you on this, but please don't hide behind the covid excuse. If the criteria for listening to direct feedback is that players have to fly to ZOS HQ, then we've already lost. Use zoom like everyone else. It's not hard. I'm hosting a second international conference with a huge number of attendees complete with breakouts, interaction, Q&A, poster sessions, etc. over zoom, and doing it with people from Hawaii to Japan (the long way around). If you need help with that, feel free to reach out.
    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    Lastly, to a few points made regarding the silencing or burying of posts. This is not happening. If players break community guidelines while trying to express their thoughts, posts will be edited or removed. Not in an effort to silence, but because guidelines were broken.

    I respectfully, but completely, disagree. You have an Orwellian system here where just talking about how bad it is results in censorship. Maybe you yourself don't engage in it outside of removing some high amount of profanity, but your peers sure do. I have brought a few instances of poor modding to you privately, but I largely ignore 99% of it (mostly because I value my time, and I'm not paid to be ZOS's QA; partially because it feels fruitless in all but the most egregious of bad mod behavior).

    I think the problem here is that the guidelines are broken, not that the guidelines are broken (see what I did there? :P)

    The rules in place are fundamentally flawed:
    • They are not evenly enforced. Some mods are nicer than others. Some mods you can kind of tell are having a bad day and they more harshly respond to things on those days (with actions usually). Some mods have different ideas of what are bad words to say. Some messages are just plain missed.
    • Open criticism of any kind relating to poor modding behavior is against the rules. Look at any revolution ever to understand why censorship only makes things worse. There has never been a point in history where a ruling entity censored an angry population without bad fallout.
    • The rules make it impossible to *adequately* challenge and push back against painful and riot-inducing ZOS actions. We aren't even allowed to have a change.org petition to try to demonstrate how catastrophic your AWA change is, because petitions are of course against the rules (and the recent thread on that was deleted).
    • Mods never explain themselves. Sure, they post phony messages like "We deleted posts that were against the rules," or "We closed this [useful!] thread, because there's another [not useful!] thread instead." But there's never a message saying "Ok, everyone... we get it, you're angry. You're fighting with each other because you're frustrated with us. I'm sorry about that, and I'm going to get a developer in here to respond to this hot issue immediately. Let's work through this together."

    Why don't you guys try openly engaging with angry people? When someone makes a thread saying "I hate this!", does deleting the thread make them hate the thing less? Why not ask the question, "How did we get to a point where a user felt the only possible recourse was to shout hatred on the forum?" Ask what role your staff and your policies played in that outcome. Maybe acknowledge that those angry people are paying your salary. Conduct an After Action Review (they really are effective when done well).

    My personal experience with community management is such that censorship is the LAST tool you should employ after all else has failed. On this forum, it tends to be the first tool employed (or at least an early tool). And we only see actual change after an enormous amount of censored content breaks through somebody's threshold. So, your policy that says "don't do this thing" makes us do that thing more. Are policy makers aware that that is the environment that your policies and actions are fostering? If so, is that intended? If not, are they interested in fixing that?
    Warning: This signature is tiny!
  • p00tx
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    Kesstryl wrote: »
    ZOS, When I look back at feedback given for various things, and confusion or outrage by the community about decisions made, it might be a good idea for ZOS to start asking us some of the things we'd like to see or want implemented. I'm wondering if the devs and team might be confused about all this anger this patch, and this kind of thing could have been alleviated by asking the community for ideas. Not just a yes or no answer, like would you like Account Wide Achievements (duh), but asking HOW we would like to see things implemented. I can think of numerous other examples where something presented really missed the mark of what the community wanted. Take the Isle of Balfiera for example, not only did using it for new tutorials dash the hopes of those who wanted Direnni content, but the tutorial itself missed the mark of the community actually wanting to pick which beginner tutorial they wanted a character to start with. Now all those older tutorials will never be seen again, and what we got is not what we really wanted. How about a little more transparency with us and involving us a little more in idea sharing? All this hush secrecy that you think will spoil whatever you have in the pipeline has not really helped when it comes to communicating with us and being blindsided by us when we get angry about what we got. Is it really worth all this? I remember one time when you asked our feedback about changing light and heavy attacks, let us test it, and then nixed it when our feedback was not favorable. Couldn't you do more things like this again? Trust us a little more? Allow us to let you know what we want so we all win?

    They do sometimes, but they tend to listen to the wrong people.
    PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero
  • Succuby
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    If look on situation like :
    90%players are casuals
    10%understand basics of balance

    I do not think that result would be any better than what is now.

    By the way - this trash changes are becouse players ! Because they listen players.

    Some people wanted >THIS<, so now you get it.
  • Jaimeh
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    @ZOS_Kevin Since we have your ear in this thread about dev-player communication, could you please also relay to the team that a lot of players think the change to AWA should be delayed until the chapter release (here is a recent forum poll), so that hopefully they can find a way for us to toggle between individual character progress and account-wide progress, and comb out the bugs that might arise from trying to replay content on an alt character. There are addons on PC that track global achievements (one example is: 'Pithka's achievement tracker'), so perhaps something similar in format could be implemented, and the information could be displayed on a tab, or on-demand by writing a slash command in game, and we could toggle between character info and account info. We understand why the devs wanted to make this change, but the devs have to also understand how upset a huge portion of the player base is by having their playing history of 7+ years deleted, and meet us half-way, by finding a solution that will appeal to everyone.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
    RaddlemanNumber7
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    Trust is needed on both sides

    How can we trust a company that decides to destroy its customers' data without any prior consultation?
    PC EU
  • Indigogo
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    Hi Kevin, here is an example of silencing moderation:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/599025/blackreach-4-hours-24-boots#latest

    I'm not sure how the justification of "non constructive" applies when that person posted detailed error codes.
    I mean fair enough move it to a bug thread, and maybe trim some of the language if it got a little too bashing, but to close it smells of squashing posts that expose poor game quality.
  • CP5
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    Trust is needed on both sides

    How can we trust a company that decides to destroy its customers' data without any prior consultation?

    Or, as another take, how can we trust silence? Sometimes worse still, trust some of the comments on the patch notes? We don't get much information, ever, but when the pts patch notes went live "we're updating combat prayer's cost and power despite the fact it often overheals anyway because spreadsheet" or "we nerfed bahsei's so other sets can shine" and people ask "what other sets?" or "we nerfed toggle because people found workarounds by learning the game." Either we get nothing, or comments that seem out of touch with the game. Huge breaks of silence between any sort of meaningful post only make this worse.
  • Deter1UK
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    Jaimeh wrote: »
    hopefully they can find a way for us to toggle between individual character progress and account-wide progress

    Zos has explicitly stated that they will not do this because they are going (in effect) to delete the data base that contains all that information.

    I wonder why it would not be possible to hold that data client-side though? Or is that going to create too many client queries?
    Edited by Deter1UK on February 25, 2022 3:35PM
  • maximusrex45
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    p00tx wrote: »
    They do sometimes, but they tend to listen to the wrong people.

    You mean the people who don't agree with you.
  • nightstrike
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    Indigogo wrote: »
    Hi Kevin, here is an example of silencing moderation:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/599025/blackreach-4-hours-24-boots#latest

    I'm not sure how the justification of "non constructive" applies when that person posted detailed error codes.
    I mean fair enough move it to a bug thread, and maybe trim some of the language if it got a little too bashing, but to close it smells of squashing posts that expose poor game quality.

    That is an absurd reason to close that thread. That said, the mod that did it is one that commonly gets excessively heavy handed without what I would consider as due cause.
    Warning: This signature is tiny!
  • dzugarueb17_ESO
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    Deter1UK wrote: »
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    hopefully they can find a way for us to toggle between individual
    I wonder why it would not be possible to hold that data client-side though? Or is that going to create too many client queries?
    What do you mean "client-side"? Even single player games nowadays keep your saves in the cloud, so when you play on your other laptop/delete your game from disk, your progress is saved. As for MMO this is utterly impossible - client can modify achievements and lie to the server.
  • Fennwitty
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    @ZOS_Kevin the provided justification of "improved performance" may in fact be true.

    But the first we're hearing about this is three weeks into the PTS?

    Simply by the presentation it seems like a tacked-on excuse. To me, it just seems like "We decided to do this implementation and if we're lucky it will also improve the database."


    How could good will be regained?

    For me, I'd need to hear more about just how poorly the live version is and how it's impacting real performance today. Not extremely specific, but with enough detail to be understandable -- and give evidence technical reasons were truly involved in this decision.

    Right now, we have effectively 'it might improve some load screens in general because ... we choose to say so.' Honestly the performance improvement promises have fell flat almost 100% of the time for the last 3 years, so we're skeptical.

    Missing from the Q&A were highly relevant questions of, "Did you consider alternative ways of implementing accountwide achievements besides this method?"

    Or even "Did you consider that replayability and the way many people use the game hinges on achievements?"

    Now ideally the answer is 'Of course we did, we take it seriously but weren't able to do things a different way.'

    In which case, it should be very simple to add that to the Q&A.
    Edited by Fennwitty on February 25, 2022 4:32PM
    PC NA
  • ZOS_Kevin
    ZOS_Kevin
    Community Manager
    @Kesstryl Thanks again for responding and sharing more player perspective. As noted earlier, we'll share this with the team regarding communication.

    One last point on moderation, as we don't want to steer off-course of the original topic. Generally discussing moderation practice is against community rules, as those conversations are more helpful when addressed in a one-on-one capacity. However, for threads closed down, mods generally share their justification related to community guidelines. However, there's always room to discuss mod action and have it adjusted. Many of you have also reached out when threads are closed via DM and we work to resolve those. If you have concerns about a specific action taken, please submit an appeal ticket via help.elderscrollsonline.com and we would be happy to review it with you.

    We are reviewing the conversations here related to communication, so please continue to share your thoughts and ideas. Thank you @Kesstryl for your insightful post and spinning this conversation up.
    Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter
    Staff Post
  • p00tx
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    p00tx wrote: »
    They do sometimes, but they tend to listen to the wrong people.

    You mean the people who don't agree with you.

    Sometimes that's the case, and even though I might be a butthole right off the bat, I'll usually come around and chill out and be ready to listen once I'm no longer irritated by the combativeness that floods forums like these. I think that's usually the case with a lot of us. If we all learned to be more respectful and open to seeing other perspectives without being blinded by our prior biases, we'd have a lot more productive conversations that resulted in actually helping this game. A lot of changes happen though because one person comes up with an idea, or has a bugaboo about something in the game, and they scream the loudest and most persistently, so their idea gets the attention, whether it's a good one for the entire game community or not. This is a big game with a lot of different subsets to the community, and changes need to be considered carefully in terms of how they're going to impact all facets of the game, from the bottom to the top.

    PvP and PvE are almost always at odds with one another because it's REALLY difficult to properly balance the two. We share the same gear and skills (although there have been a few things released that are coded to only work against enemy players or conversely, non-player enemies, which is brilliant and should be more widespread) and CP, so what's good for one is more often than not less than great for the other. Power creep is only natural in PvE, and the newer content was designed with the higher available dmg in mind, so nerfing dmg/heals too much would make it impossible to complete certain achievements. On the flipside of the that, power creep is making it awful in PvP and dmg/healing in their current state are not doing great things for the health of that part of the community.

    How many people are familiar enough with both though to recognize that kind of contradiction and the problems it poses? And how many of them have been angrily silenced by other frustrated players on the forums when trying to discuss these issues? Most people who spend hours testing issues in this game don't even bother bringing them to the forums anymore because of the response they tend to get from their peers, or the lack of response from the dev team. There is absolutely nowhere to discuss this stuff in any effective way anymore, and it's become incredibly frustrating.
    PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero
  • AinSoph
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    Trust is needed on both sides

    How can we trust a company that decides to destroy its customers' data without any prior consultation?

    Unfortunately, that's just in the ToS.
  • Shawn_PT
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    I wish I could give multiple "Agrees" with this post. Seriously.

    Whenever I see an update and zos states that it's something players have been requesting for a long time, I think.... Who? Who has requested this? Not me for sure. I don't remember being asked my opinion on (insert random change). I also don't think the vocal members of the forums actually amount to a significant portion of the population so that what they ask for is actually what the community wants.

    I see people on my guilds saying they'd want to post on the forums but don't have an account here so they can't, and ask someone who does. I can probably count with the fingers of one hand the names from my guilds who also regularly appear in the forums. And I'm on several 400+ guilds.

    And this last change with the account-wide achievements? I can safely say not one person in my endgame guild finds this change good, or welcome. And I'm talking about people who have pretty much the game completed. The common arguments are:

    "What's the point of having more than one character now?"

    "Why should I keep playing now, after having completed every achievement in the game? I am certainly not going to start a second character now or join other prog groups since it will literally have no meaning."

    "I'm afraid of logging into my alts now, since a lot of achievements may now be permanently registered as being first unlocked by "MuleMaster" instead of my main." (Particularly those like Black Market Mogul and the such).

    "This is probably going to break the game so badly, I'll take a couple of weeks break from ESO just so I don't risk losing anything..."



    Personally, I abhor this idea. I enjoyed hunting for monster trophies on my alts. I enjoyed fishing on my alts. Or clearing every delve on a map, or every skyshard... I got a little bit of happy chemicals each time that flag popped up for ACHIEVEMENT COMPLETE. Now I'll seldom see it again. All the time I've spent chasing that high will mean nothing. Since the announcement dropped, I find myself logging in and just forcing myself to do something random, or just wander around with not much will to work on anything. Trying to convince myself that deep down, it may not be that bad. Then look at my achievement lists and realize I'm just lying to myself. There's zero incentive to log into my templar. Or my sorc. Or my necro. Or my warden...... Why should I anyway? Nothing they have now will mean anything in a few weeks, neither will there be an interest in chasing achievements on them that my main already has because.... Oh yeah. They won't even be achievements anymore!

    Should have started by consolidating those achievements that are actually the reason why people might want this, such as trifectas, instead of loading them all into the same bag. Then depending on reception, work from there. But for the love of Talos ask the players, not just scan the forums for what's being whined about before making this sort of change. Somehow, I am finding it extremely hard to accept that checking a database for achievements is such a huge burden that performance will suddenly be that much better when this change drops.

    I did not want this, I did not ask for this, and this will severely hinder my ability to enjoy the game and keep coming back.


    (Have you noticed how people seem so much more interested/troubled with the achievement change than with the whole new chapter and its card game gimmick? Makes a person think.)
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