PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

Kesstryl

I ended up deleting 3 alts that would get achievements for a story that my main Vestige who I consider to be the one who took down Molag Bal wouldn't get. The story behind this is I started her out as a templar because back at the beginning there were only 4 classes, and the other 3 didn't fit the nature themed wood elf ranger I wanted her to be. When Warden came out, that was what I wanted her to be, so I deleted her and remade her a Warden. That pushed her completion dates up. 3 of my characters that existed before her would have gotten credit for what I consider to be her story. That's if I decide to actually log in on any of my established characters on this mess. I also made a copy of her who has no achievements which will be the actual character I log on with to check in on my guild. You can see from the pics how little I thought of Achievements as I wasn't big on chasing them. I thought you could see how I remade her as it reflects how I feel about all of this.

Kesstryl the Hero (bonuses removed as I put her gear in storage):


Kesstryl's Souless Avatar (because apparently that's how ZOS wants us to see our characters):

Jimbru

Speaking as a veteran player and tester of countless other games all the way back to UO and EQ, account wide achievements are just one of many features from other successful games that ESO is LONG overdue to adopt. ESO needs to learn from its competitors in terms of giving players the features and conveniences they want, in order to keep attracting and retaining new players. Otherwise, the game dies. And the way some of you are talking, I almost think you would rather have that than to have anything at all changed, much less improved. Because God forbid new players have a better, more gen pop friendly player experience than we did back in beta and early release. [snip]

If you are a hardcore roleplayer that wants to treat all of your characters as total individuals carrying out some kind of alternate existence for you, then do that; if there's not addons already to track your achievements individually by character, I'm sure there soon will be. But if you're like the casual majority that just wants to play the game on the character you feel like today without having to worry so much about what you do or don't have unlocked on a particular character, then account-wide achievements are a godsend.

[edited for baiting]

alberichtano

Tandor wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Bucky Balls wrote: »

Posting on behalf of comrade_ogilvy who is 'currently tied up in room 101'.

comrade_ogilvy wrote:

After wandering around pts on a low level character for a bit [actually, bucky was co-opted] into starter zones like stonefalls, auridon and senschal(s.elsewyr) the ambient npc chatter seems to be mostly silenced. This may simply be because whatever rng mechanic wasn't triggered but it did seem eerily and noticeably quiet. This silence does NOT extend to main quest line npc's ("I swear it was sai sahan..." or "do you know how long I've been looking for you" and, naturally, "dragons in your homeland...") which are still noticeably present. Additionally, some npc's (eg Nahrina in Sentinel Alik'r when approached will NOT recognise the new character and her dialogue reflects that her side quest in an alik'r delve has not been completed) seem ok too; but I only tested one or two of these. My low-level character was not greeted with anything reflecting account-wide progresss by npc monologues - no 'saviour' etc mentions in my brief wanderings in sentinel, senschal, rivenspire and wayrest but, again, those comments are rng and may simply have not been triggered.

All the previous overland issues are still conspicuously present: world objects approached like delves will show initially as dark but as soon as the 'found' trigger occurs, the map turns them white. World bosses etc are shown as complete if AWA has recorded them as complete.

The add-on created by @silvereyes (CharacterZoneTracker) makes some cosmetic changes to both the map and and the zone guide such that current, live behaviour is more or less retained: incomplete delves show as incomplete on the map and the map-inset zone guide pretty much has everything as it should be (exception: tooltips show awa data). Unfortunately, the add-on changes are cosmetic in that it has no effect, understandably, on game mechanics - when you enter a delve the boss will take 5+ mins to spawn if AWA has recorded the delve as complete. When you kill a delve boss you will get the text acknowledgement that it's complete but no corresponding pop-up graphic if awa has recorded it as already done. I didn't test world bosses or other stuff due to time constraints.

image showing u33(no add-ons) incomplete delve on approach from perspective of low-level character. Note that inset and 'full' zone guide shows completion of various zone activities not done by the character but recorded by awa as 'complete'.

image showing CharacterZoneTracker add-on changes to ui from same low-level character: the incomplete delve is still blanked as it should be and the map inset zone guide is showing that this new character has done nothing yet in zone. Once the delve boss is killed (after the LONG wait) - the add-on updates the map and inset zone guide to reflect this fact(not shown).

The CharacterZoneTracker add-on was enabled/disabled to generate the images. The data was collected from live (VERY IMPORTANT FOR ADD_ON TO WORK) by loading into each character with the add-on active then transferred to pts saved variables for testing. No other add-ons were active during testing except, briefly, to test if there were any conflicts with other add-ons or game errors.

From this brief testing, with the add-on - assuming you download it before u33 and backup your savedvariables - it seems to restore some of the replayability removed with the awa implementation. For console users dismayed by this awa implementation, I am truly sorry there is no apparent workaround for you.

All of this begs the question, however: given zos were asked for a client-side implementation why was none implemented and why was that requested potential feature question not addressed in the q&a? Personally, I remain opposed to the implementation of awa and would have preferred keeping what we have and adding account-wide separately.

Thanks to @code65536 and @silvereyes for 11th hour add-on provision. And for Bucky for passing on this test information which I hope may be of interest.

If I may play the cynic again (as it is what I do best) - they knew that modders would solve it for them. As with so, so many other bugs, issues and matters of QoL, modders do a lot of work that ZOS then simply doesn't have to. It is a rare thing to see implementations that were once part of a mod, and even then it is often (though admittedly not always) wrenched to become a selling point. Compare the modded versions of the Armory and the one created by ZOS - the modded versions were free, the ZOS-version is free to a very limited degree.

So that is why, I believe.

For what, barely one-third of the playerbase? That's hardly a solution.

Nope. But since the PC-base will be content, and they (we) seem to be the more vocal ones, that's where we're at. If it was up to me, many of the addons would be implemented by ZOS in ESO, so that all can enjoy the QoL they provide. Alas, it is not up to me.

alberichtano

SpiritKitten wrote: »

I spent the last two weeks doing Kari's Hit List and some skyshard runs, but I just can't do it anymore. Burnt out. 3 of my alts will not get Kari's TG xp I guess. Skyshard runs will be more difficult going forward. I can live with this, because I learned long ago to adapt to change in MMOs. We do not have the ultimate power over our characters or the game world. The devs do. They work in mysterious ways.

I feel sad about all the alts being deleted/parked/stripped. I went the opposite route after the AWA announcement, and bought them all their own homes and have begun decorating them so they know that I love and value them and would never delete them. I've begun respeccing them so they can be whole, even if played less.

Deleting alts so their name doesn't appear on a line of text in a tooltip (in the achievement panel) seems overboard and emotional, and an act many will regret I would bet.

Let's not lose sight of one enormous truth: we are privileged to be able to play in an MMO at all. I grew up before the internet even existed. A lot of you seem to take this wonderous digital realm for granted. Please take a step back and see the larger picture.

Say what now? I grew up before home computers was a thing, and I still don't take just anything with grateful hands. It is not as if it is a free gift, we have payed for this game. I will be thankful when they stop wrecking the game I payed for, thank you very much.

alberichtano

Jimbru wrote: »

Speaking as a veteran player and tester of countless other games all the way back to UO and EQ, account wide achievements are just one of many features from other successful games that ESO is LONG overdue to adopt. ESO needs to learn from its competitors in terms of giving players the features and conveniences they want, in order to keep attracting and retaining new players. Otherwise, the game dies. And the way some of you are talking, I almost think you would rather have that than to have anything at all changed, much less improved. Because God forbid new players have a better, more gen pop friendly player experience than we did back in beta and early release. [snip]

If you are a hardcore roleplayer that wants to treat all of your characters as total individuals carrying out some kind of alternate existence for you, then do that; if there's not addons already to track your achievements individually by character, I'm sure there soon will be. But if you're like the casual majority that just wants to play the game on the character you feel like today without having to worry so much about what you do or don't have unlocked on a particular character, then account-wide achievements are a godsend.

Ehm, no. First off, just because YOU think a certain feature is great doesn't mean that everyone else does. And that many games have done something similar doesn't make it right for a different game.

And no, there won't be a mod to solve this, there won't be anything for the mod to get data from. Which is the very point people here are making.

[edited to remove quote]

NettleCarrier

Jimbru wrote: »

Speaking as a veteran player and tester of countless other games all the way back to UO and EQ, account wide achievements are just one of many features from other successful games that ESO is LONG overdue to adopt. ESO needs to learn from its competitors in terms of giving players the features and conveniences they want, in order to keep attracting and retaining new players. Otherwise, the game dies. And the way some of you are talking, I almost think you would rather have that than to have anything at all changed, much less improved. Because God forbid new players have a better, more gen pop friendly player experience than we did back in beta and early release. [snip]

If you are a hardcore roleplayer that wants to treat all of your characters as total individuals carrying out some kind of alternate existence for you, then do that; if there's not addons already to track your achievements individually by character, I'm sure there soon will be. But if you're like the casual majority that just wants to play the game on the character you feel like today without having to worry so much about what you do or don't have unlocked on a particular character, then account-wide achievements are a godsend.

Exactly this. I'm tired. Tired of playing my main through all the new chapters that release, tired of needing to have them complete stories instead of starting or continuing new alts in storylines my main hasn't played before. I'm tired of struggling to bring my main to first completions of vet trials or hard modes because I want all my achievements in one place - when I know darn well that I have alternate DPS characters that can pull better numbers but am coerced to being a little selfish. I look forward to a day when a new trial comes out and I can bring the best character, or start the next chapter on a Breton character. There's so much to do in this game, why does everyone want to do it all more than once? Who's going to spy on your achievement journal to figure out what you have and haven't done in some order.

[edited to remove quote]

SilverBride

NettleCarrier wrote: »

There's so much to do in this game, why does everyone want to do it all more than once?

Why do people watch movies more than once?

People like to repeat things they enjoy.

ArchangelIsraphel

Jimbru wrote: »

Speaking as a veteran player and tester of countless other games all the way back to UO and EQ, account wide achievements are just one of many features from other successful games that ESO is LONG overdue to adopt. ESO needs to learn from its competitors in terms of giving players the features and conveniences they want, in order to keep attracting and retaining new players. Otherwise, the game dies. And the way some of you are talking, I almost think you would rather have that than to have anything at all changed, much less improved. Because God forbid new players have a better, more gen pop friendly player experience than we did back in beta and early release. [snip]

If you are a hardcore roleplayer that wants to treat all of your characters as total individuals carrying out some kind of alternate existence for you, then do that; if there's not addons already to track your achievements individually by character, I'm sure there soon will be. But if you're like the casual majority that just wants to play the game on the character you feel like today without having to worry so much about what you do or don't have unlocked on a particular character, then account-wide achievements are a godsend.

Your post completely misrepresents every single sentiment in this thread regarding the real reasons why people are against AWA. It has nothing to do with the concept of "I had it hard so others should too." Not at all. Maybe for a few, it might, but there is far more at the heart of the matter than that.

Not only that, but you've also misrepresented many of the posters here, who were advocating for a BETTER version of AWA than what has been implemented on the PTS, along side a character journal for independent tracking purposes. Many of us were trying to present solutions that would make both work.

I'm not ashamed of trying to preserve my playstyle, nor should anyone else here be ashamed. You know why? Because I have every respect for the other play styles presented in this thread, including those that benefit AWA. And I know for a fact that so many of those that spoke up and did their best to attempt to sway ZOS also had respect for all the different types of play styles here.

I wanted a better version of AWA for people like you, and newer players, one that would preserve world continuity, ambiance, and make the zone guide function as it should for alts. I hoped for a version that would preserve independent character tracking, like so many popular games. This could have worked really well, as it does in many of the successful games you mention. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well at all, and from the looks of things, ZOS will not fix it.

At the 11th hour, all I can say now is, I'm sorry we couldn't convince ZOS to hold back on this update and give it the refinement it deserved, so that it truly could be something newer and older players would love. Instead, its so unprofessionally implemented that I find myself wondering how ZOS can possibly be going through with it. Its a mess that doesn't even compare to the achievement system in other games, and makes the whole game look sloppy. The lack of polish is...startling.

But no, no one in this thread should be ashamed for standing for what they're passionate about. Especially when so many were here testing AWA to try to make it better, even if they didn't want AWA at all, in order to solve the issues present with it. I'm proud of the efforts of so many posters here who did an amazing job not only developing solutions and attempting to present them, but also for their efforts in reminding us that we must be respectful of all play styles.

Don't ever be ashamed of defending what you love or let others bring you down because you did. (And yes, that includes those who wanted AWA- you deserve to be heard too) You're all amazing, and I learned so much from the information you all shared, from technical information, to moving personal stories.

In any case, The Planemeld is nigh. I'll see you folks on the other side, for those who choose to stay like me.

[edited to remove quote]

NettleCarrier

OleandersOne wrote: »

[snip]

I have no intention of telling others how to enjoy a game, none whatsoever. I'm just sad about how divided this change has made everyone - something that was supposed to be good for the game. People are quitting over this.. I mean, it can't be *that* bad. This game needs to change to improve, if it didn't then we'd all get bored.

[edited to remove quote]

kringled_1

This implementation of awa isn't a game breaker for me, but it is disappointing.

I'm not very motivated by achievement completion in and of itself, so the account wide aspect isn't amazing. I did always want the ability to see what I'd done on other characters, which is sort of nice here, but it also removes the small carrot of getting an achievement again on another character. Achievement furniture purchases being account wide is a nice change. Account wide titles is nice for a few of them; there are characters where I'd occasionally like to use "Witch" but I don't really want to repeat the holiday writs. I might make a bit of progress on monster trophies. It'll be slightly easier to get the few remaining dungeon challengers I'm missing. I'll get to Black Market Mogul a couple of weeks earlier. That's about it for the positive side. There's so few achievements that give you something that's not already account wide (other than titles) that I still don't really understand the people who think this will save them something.

On the negative side, unless they make changes, achievement tracked npc encounters are now once per account (adoring admirer isn't even a year old). We're losing fast delve boss respawns. There's a lot of potential xp in world boss, delve boss, and dlc dungeon slayer achievements that's going away. Again, that small carrot of beating a world boss for the first time on a particular character will be mostly gone for me. The achievements I care the most about though are the trial and dungeon achievements, where it can be a very different experience on different roles. I do already track these on a spreadsheet but it's nice to be able to get confirmation from the game. I'll still know for hard modes but I may not be sure for speed /no death. It'll also be harder to know for sure which dlc dungeons I've done the quest on; the map marker may be correct but I don't always know what zone the dungeons are in; on live (for a few more hours) I can look at achievements to at least see if a character has been there. All in all, negatives outweigh positives for me, and no, I don't need my characters to be some kind of independent and pure adventure.

The really bad taste that this leaves me with is in how ZOS has handled it. From the issues that were easily anticipated but not addressed at the outset with things tracked only by achievements, to the long silent spell, to the Q&A that answered only the tiniest fraction of questions asked here. This was an opportunity to create a win-win situation for a lot of people, but instead they are (for me) actively breaking existing features in the game. I'm skeptical about the supposed performance improvements that this brings, and wondering what else they'll throw out from the game next patch. This won't stop me from playing, but it's yet another point where my enthusiasm dies a little.

OleandersOne

NettleCarrier wrote: »

OleandersOne wrote: »

[snip]

I have no intention of telling others how to enjoy a game, none whatsoever. I'm just sad about how divided this change has made everyone - something that was supposed to be good for the game. People are quitting over this.. I mean, it can't be *that* bad. This game needs to change to improve, if it didn't then we'd all get bored.

Sorry, but "There's so much to do in this game, why does everyone want to do it all more than once?" is pejorative. Stop making value judgements on how other people want to play the game.

Games change all the time - sometimes to the good, sometimes not. I don't imagine that making Cyro all PVE would go over well, but hey - that would be a change. The difference is that so many of us wanted to like these changes, because a lot of end-game people wanted it. Good! That's great! But not at the expense of the things we enjoy(ed). Call me selfish for wanting to continue to play the game that I've sunk a heck of a lot of time and money in the way I want to.

[edited to remove quote]

Bucky Balls

Jimbru wrote: »

Speaking as a veteran player and tester of countless other games all the way back to UO and EQ, account wide achievements are just one of many features from other successful games that ESO is LONG overdue to adopt. ESO needs to learn from its competitors in terms of giving players the features and conveniences they want, in order to keep attracting and retaining new players. Otherwise, the game dies. And the way some of you are talking, I almost think you would rather have that than to have anything at all changed, much less improved. Because God forbid new players have a better, more gen pop friendly player experience than we did back in beta and early release. [snip]

If you are a hardcore roleplayer that wants to treat all of your characters as total individuals carrying out some kind of alternate existence for you, then do that; if there's not addons already to track your achievements individually by character, I'm sure there soon will be. But if you're like the casual majority that just wants to play the game on the character you feel like today without having to worry so much about what you do or don't have unlocked on a particular character, then account-wide achievements are a godsend.

[snip]

No one said anything about holding anyone else back nor inhibiting newer players. Many players against this implementation are end-game players with veteran trial mutliple achievements to their credit, some on many of their characters. Some end-game pvpers have objected, too. Personally, I have most of the dungeon trifectas and several trial achievements on multiple characters but I love to while away the time trying for master angler, for example on other characters which, from tomorrow, will no longer be possible.

If you take the time to read and review what has actually been discussed you'll see that most commentators were pro-account wide achievements but not at the cost of losing character individuality, an individuality that players have enjoyed for 8 years. Indeed, even those who were ardently pro-awa balked once they learned it came at the cost of loss of character specifics. Not one single commentator has even alluded to 'how hard they had it so others should too' - except you, of course, and without any justification or contextual relevance.

Add-ons are limited - again if you had taken the time to read the comments you would have understood the limitations discussed.

[snip]

Anyway, I am happy for you that you are looking forward to the incoming changes and that you believe they will enhance your product experience.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Jaraal

NettleCarrier wrote: »

OleandersOne wrote: »

[snip]

I have no intention of telling others how to enjoy a game, none whatsoever. I'm just sad about how divided this change has made everyone - something that was supposed to be good for the game. People are quitting over this.. I mean, it can't be *that* bad. This game needs to change to improve, if it didn't then we'd all get bored.

Many of us already got all the achievements we wanted with our mains, or our other characters. The only thing left for us was replaying the game from scratch with other toons. But ZOS has just told everybody, once is enough, no more achievements for you.

Don't tell us we shouldn't go.... tell us why we should stay?

[edited to remove quote]

tonyblack

Jaraal wrote: »

NettleCarrier wrote: »

OleandersOne wrote: »

[snip]

I have no intention of telling others how to enjoy a game, none whatsoever. I'm just sad about how divided this change has made everyone - something that was supposed to be good for the game. People are quitting over this.. I mean, it can't be *that* bad. This game needs to change to improve, if it didn't then we'd all get bored.

Many of us already got all the achievements we wanted with our mains, or other characters. The only thing left for us was replaying the game from scratch with other characters. But ZOS has just told everybody, once is enough, no more achievements for you.

Don't tell us we shouldn't go.... tell us why we should stay?

If getting same achievements on alts is all that was driving you to play eso then yes, that change suck. But i’m sure for a lot of players it would be a great improvement to not be chained to a single character. You can still replay every zone, dungeon and trial any time you want. Getting check mark in form of achievements is nothing more than perception.

And honestly, anti AwA people in this thread (not all but some) claim they are not against it and then proceed to demand changes that contradict to the whole idea of accountwide achievements in the first place. I’m not saying everything is perfect but so far everything is working in a way you would have expect from the system like that.

[edited to remove quote]

dmnqwk

I've been playing ESO for 10 years, MMOs for 20 and DnD for 30 (I know the numbers don't quite line up, but it makes a more compelling story )

In World of Warcraft there was a cute fuzzy mount called an Amani War Bear, available for characters who could complete a 10 man instance within a strict time limit. I was living in the EU but played on the US servers, so I'd wake up at 4:45am to log on and complete the run each week on my Druid tank, with us pretty successful each week.
Now, one week a healer couldn't make it and we could only find a substitute tank, so I switched from my Druid tank to my Shaman healer.... and wouldn't you know, that one week I ended up getting the mount... ON THE WRONG CHARACTER!

For years, I got stuck with my Amani War Bear on the wrong character, bringing me heartache every time I logged on knowing I could never get that mount (it was no longer able to be earned) on the character who actually put in the work to earn it... until, after many years down the line... mounts became ACCOUNT WIDE! So at long last, the character who DESERVED THE MOUNT finally got to RIDE THE MOUNT (I mean, seriously, one week out of 10 I switch and that's my turn for the mount, sheesh).

From the roleplaying perspective, I can appreciate you might've put a lot of effort into a character to earn specific things, of which you want the rest of your characters to be able to enjoy the accomplishments of... but honestly, the character is nothing with you. They didn't earn ANYTHING without you at the helm. So the achievements never EVER belonged to a single character, they always belonged to the player. It can be frustrating how that affects your story, or even how the character's story is brought to life, but it's a fact of the game.

I, personally, can see why people are upset over this change but I cannot agree with it. Stories need to adapt with time and while a large amount of frustration is generated when things don't go your way, it's important to understand how frustrating the game would be if, for example, NOTHING was shared between characters...

Imagine, if you will, these scenarios:

1. Single character. No alts allowed, no DELETING your character to change classes... you'd need to purchase the entire game again to switch. [there are people who'd be okay with this, before you suggest it would be insane]
2. One and done achievements. This would mean if you earned a dye on 1 character, it was NOT shared with another. If you learned a crafting motif, nobody else could share it too. Worm Wizard on your alt by mistake? Your main is never getting it! [heavily restrictive but why not eh?]
3. Everything is shared. No character is an individual, it's just your account showing what you've done. [each character is just a number]

Now, looking at all 3 of those... they each look crazy to some people and rational to others. It's a problem with shared space and the belief that if 10 people share your opinion, you're right. Account-wide may hamper your own ability to tell a story with your characters, but it's not impossible. There are plenty of people who set up spreadsheets for various reasons in game (trading, for example) and while you may not WANT to do the work... it'd be real simple for you to track the achievements yourself if it was that much of an issue. Sure, it'd be tons of work and super dull, but it's an option that exists. Yes it sucks that you'd have to put more work in to repeat Master Angler on a second character, but as it's the player completing it and not the character... the story is up to you

For those who think a character matters in terms of 'link achievement' that's definitely a fallacy, because I could earn a trifecta achievement as a tank, then re-spec to another role and they'd never know! (Having once raided 4 raids in a single day as 3 specs on the same character, it's definitely a possibility )

Overall, this change is something which will definitely make some people's lives worse and may see dozens, if not hundreds of people leave the game. Leaving a game is a good thing if it's not fun anymore, and it sucks if you're the one no longer having fun. I think AWA is excellent for me, and if I didn't make it clear I am in favour of it I'd be doing a disservice to others posting this, and think that it simply has far too many benefits to not be brought in! Though I'll be sorry to see those who cannot cope with the change leave (and yes, there will be many who do not wish to separate the fantasy of each character from the reality of them being controlled by a single person who puppeteers their every move).

Jaraal

tonyblack wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

NettleCarrier wrote: »

OleandersOne wrote: »

[snip]

I have no intention of telling others how to enjoy a game, none whatsoever. I'm just sad about how divided this change has made everyone - something that was supposed to be good for the game. People are quitting over this.. I mean, it can't be *that* bad. This game needs to change to improve, if it didn't then we'd all get bored.

Many of us already got all the achievements we wanted with our mains, or other characters. The only thing left for us was replaying the game from scratch with other characters. But ZOS has just told everybody, once is enough, no more achievements for you.

Don't tell us we shouldn't go.... tell us why we should stay?

If getting same achievements on alts is all that was driving you to play eso then yes, that change suck. But i’m sure for a lot of players it would be a great improvement to not be chained to a single character.

Yes, it was my game goal to earn the Gray Host Emperor title on all my characters. I made it through eight, including one from each class. Honestly, it all seems like wasted time now, since they sold me a game that played one way for eight years, and now they want to turn ESO into a different game, rather than staying true to the original concept. It's not surprising, because they are turning it into a card game later this year, and who knows what other kind of game it will be turned into in the future. But I signed up to play the original ESO... and I find myself playing only a fraction of the time I did before. There's no continuity any more, and wasting time in the future only to have everything turned upside down again on a whim doesn't honestly sound that appealing to me.

[edited to remove quote]

Jimbru

Jaraal wrote: »

Yes, it was my game goal to earn the Gray Host Emperor title on all my characters. I made it through eight, including one from each class. Honestly, it all seems like wasted time now, since they sold me a game that played one way for eight years, and now they want to turn ESO into a different game, rather than staying true to the original concept. It's not surprising, because they are turning it into a card game later this year, and who knows what other kind of game it will be turned into in the future. But I signed up to play the original ESO... and I find myself playing only a fraction of the time I did before. There's no continuity any more, and wasting time in the future only to have everything turned upside down again on a whim doesn't honestly sound that appealing to me.

The card game thing annoys me too. Out of all the things I've seen people asking for in ESO, I can't recall seeing ANYBODY asking for a card game, and I really, REALLY wish they'd rethink that before it happens. There are so many more things that people actually want, so many more things that ESO actually needs to catch up with quality of life in other games, before something like a card game. If you want a reason to leave ESO, the obtuse disconnection of the devs from the desires of their players as manifest in the card game is a pretty good reason.

Jimbru

Guild Wars 2 takes the approach that almost everything on characters is shared -- bank, dyes, achievements, titles, etc. -- EXCEPT achievements related to map exploration and completion of the story. Those are unique to each character. So while all the background infrastructure type stuff is shared so you don't have to redevelop all of it on each character, each character still has their own unique story, re-discovering the world and playing through the story content. You could almost think of your characters as sort of their own mini-guild, sharing their base of operations but each on their own path. That's the system I think ESO should emulate.

Jaraal

Jimbru wrote: »

The card game thing annoys me too. Out of all the things I've seen people asking for in ESO, I can't recall seeing ANYBODY asking for a card game, and I really, REALLY wish they'd rethink that before it happens. There are so many more things that people actually want, so many more things that ESO actually needs to catch up with quality of life in other games, before something like a card game. If you want a reason to leave ESO, the obtuse disconnection of the devs from the desires of their players as manifest in the card game is a pretty good reason.

The difference between the card game and the quality of life things people want is that the card game can be monetized. And clearly the Crown Store is the most important part of keeping ESO going.... or at least that's how it appears. They can sell skill lines and XP scrolls and Alliance change tokens and convenience items, but those things are limited. With a card game, there are no limits. You can keep adding hundreds, even thousands of cards.... and if you don't want to grind for them, well, here... buy them in the Crown Store! And you can bet that there will be limited time only cards that play on people's FOMO, gem only cards that require you to buy Crown Crates... and if you are a collection purist and have to have them all, well, get prepared to either spend your entire life grinding, or reaching for your credit card, or both. It's a brillant source of unlimited income, if you look at it strictly from a marketing standpoint.

Oliviander

Jaraal wrote: »

The difference between the card game and the quality of life things people want is that the card game can be monetized. And clearly the Crown Store is the most important part of keeping ESO going.... or at least that's how it appears. They can sell skill lines and XP scrolls and Alliance change tokens and convenience items, but those things are limited. With a card game, there are no limits. You can keep adding hundreds, even thousands of cards.... and if you don't want to grind for them, well, here... buy them in the Crown Store! And you can bet that there will be limited time only cards that play on people's FOMO, gem only cards that require you to buy Crown Crates... and if you are a collection purist and have to have them all, well get prepared to either spend your entire life grinding, or reaching for your credit card, or both. It's a brillant source of unlimited income, if you look at it strictly from a marketing standpoint.

Or they could just have declined AWA and sell all achievements in the crownstore,
just like skill lines and skyshrds (if you already have them on one char) or for a higher even lik motfs
(no prerequisites needed).

Cynism aside:
I actually spent many bucks in the crownstore over the last 8 years but if I wanted to to that on cards
I would play another game not a RPG.

They could have easily got me with leads or recipes (still missing that Kahjiit Brazier).
But now that's history - no more bucks from me.

tonyblack

Jaraal wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

NettleCarrier wrote: »

OleandersOne wrote: »

[snip]

I have no intention of telling others how to enjoy a game, none whatsoever. I'm just sad about how divided this change has made everyone - something that was supposed to be good for the game. People are quitting over this.. I mean, it can't be *that* bad. This game needs to change to improve, if it didn't then we'd all get bored.

Many of us already got all the achievements we wanted with our mains, or other characters. The only thing left for us was replaying the game from scratch with other characters. But ZOS has just told everybody, once is enough, no more achievements for you.

Don't tell us we shouldn't go.... tell us why we should stay?

If getting same achievements on alts is all that was driving you to play eso then yes, that change suck. But i’m sure for a lot of players it would be a great improvement to not be chained to a single character.

Yes, it was my game goal to earn the Gray Host Emperor title on all my characters. I made it through eight, including one from each class. Honestly, it all seems like wasted time now, since they sold me a game that played one way for eight years, and now they want to turn ESO into a different game, rather than staying true to the original concept. It's not surprising, because they are turning it into a card game later this year, and who knows what other kind of game it will be turned into in the future. But I signed up to play the original ESO... and I find myself playing only a fraction of the time I did before. There's no continuity any more, and wasting time in the future only to have everything turned upside down again on a whim doesn't honestly sound that appealing to me.

But the thing is no amounts of reworks or delays would fix your particular case because it straight up contradicts the whole concept of account wide achievements. Not to mention that former emperor lost its value long time ago and now you can get it in a few hours during event on empty campaigns with little pvp or skill investments.

The reason to add AwA most likely not connected to card game at all. The way i see, it is the way to address constant demands for class change with the core problem of it was inability to play different classes and missing on achievements.

[edited to remove quote]

Hurbster

oops, pc acting up

Hurbster

Jimbru wrote: »

Speaking as a veteran player and tester of countless other games all the way back to UO and EQ, account wide achievements are just one of many features from other successful games that ESO is LONG overdue to adopt. ESO needs to learn from its competitors in terms of giving players the features and conveniences they want, in order to keep attracting and retaining new players. Otherwise, the game dies. And the way some of you are talking, I almost think you would rather have that than to have anything at all changed, much less improved. Because God forbid new players have a better, more gen pop friendly player experience than we did back in beta and early release. [snip]

If you are a hardcore roleplayer that wants to treat all of your characters as total individuals carrying out some kind of alternate existence for you, then do that; if there's not addons already to track your achievements individually by character, I'm sure there soon will be. But if you're like the casual majority that just wants to play the game on the character you feel like today without having to worry so much about what you do or don't have unlocked on a particular character, then account-wide achievements are a godsend.

Agreed. Although I am not looking forward to the card game, I expect it to be hugely monetised.

[edited to remove quote]

tmbrinks

dmnqwkb16_ESO wrote: »

I've been playing ESO for 10 years, MMOs for 20 and DnD for 30 (I know the numbers don't quite line up, but it makes a more compelling story )

In World of Warcraft there was a cute fuzzy mount called an Amani War Bear, available for characters who could complete a 10 man instance within a strict time limit. I was living in the EU but played on the US servers, so I'd wake up at 4:45am to log on and complete the run each week on my Druid tank, with us pretty successful each week.
Now, one week a healer couldn't make it and we could only find a substitute tank, so I switched from my Druid tank to my Shaman healer.... and wouldn't you know, that one week I ended up getting the mount... ON THE WRONG CHARACTER!

For years, I got stuck with my Amani War Bear on the wrong character, bringing me heartache every time I logged on knowing I could never get that mount (it was no longer able to be earned) on the character who actually put in the work to earn it... until, after many years down the line... mounts became ACCOUNT WIDE! So at long last, the character who DESERVED THE MOUNT finally got to RIDE THE MOUNT (I mean, seriously, one week out of 10 I switch and that's my turn for the mount, sheesh).

From the roleplaying perspective, I can appreciate you might've put a lot of effort into a character to earn specific things, of which you want the rest of your characters to be able to enjoy the accomplishments of... but honestly, the character is nothing with you. They didn't earn ANYTHING without you at the helm. So the achievements never EVER belonged to a single character, they always belonged to the player. It can be frustrating how that affects your story, or even how the character's story is brought to life, but it's a fact of the game.

I, personally, can see why people are upset over this change but I cannot agree with it. Stories need to adapt with time and while a large amount of frustration is generated when things don't go your way, it's important to understand how frustrating the game would be if, for example, NOTHING was shared between characters...

Imagine, if you will, these scenarios:

1. Single character. No alts allowed, no DELETING your character to change classes... you'd need to purchase the entire game again to switch. [there are people who'd be okay with this, before you suggest it would be insane]
2. One and done achievements. This would mean if you earned a dye on 1 character, it was NOT shared with another. If you learned a crafting motif, nobody else could share it too. Worm Wizard on your alt by mistake? Your main is never getting it! [heavily restrictive but why not eh?]
3. Everything is shared. No character is an individual, it's just your account showing what you've done. [each character is just a number]

Now, looking at all 3 of those... they each look crazy to some people and rational to others. It's a problem with shared space and the belief that if 10 people share your opinion, you're right. Account-wide may hamper your own ability to tell a story with your characters, but it's not impossible. There are plenty of people who set up spreadsheets for various reasons in game (trading, for example) and while you may not WANT to do the work... it'd be real simple for you to track the achievements yourself if it was that much of an issue. Sure, it'd be tons of work and super dull, but it's an option that exists. Yes it sucks that you'd have to put more work in to repeat Master Angler on a second character, but as it's the player completing it and not the character... the story is up to you

For those who think a character matters in terms of 'link achievement' that's definitely a fallacy, because I could earn a trifecta achievement as a tank, then re-spec to another role and they'd never know! (Having once raided 4 raids in a single day as 3 specs on the same character, it's definitely a possibility )

Overall, this change is something which will definitely make some people's lives worse and may see dozens, if not hundreds of people leave the game. Leaving a game is a good thing if it's not fun anymore, and it sucks if you're the one no longer having fun. I think AWA is excellent for me, and if I didn't make it clear I am in favour of it I'd be doing a disservice to others posting this, and think that it simply has far too many benefits to not be brought in! Though I'll be sorry to see those who cannot cope with the change leave (and yes, there will be many who do not wish to separate the fantasy of each character from the reality of them being controlled by a single person who puppeteers their every move).

You're talking about WoW...

Mounts, dyes, style pages, etc... are account-wide already in ESO. It's a nice anecdote, but literally doesn't apply to this situation.

SerafinaWaterstar

[snip] If you are going to comment on a long thread about achievements, then please actually read the thread.

This game does not have any other way of tracking character progress through the game except via Achievements.

That is the big issue.

If you squidge all achievements from all characters how do you know what separate characters have or haven’t done?

And yes, there are those who play this game through on different characters, going through the zones, and REPEATING content. If there was no ability to do this, this game would have died years ago.

As I am on console & have no option of an add-on, am preparing with spreadsheets & using ESO app. But I should not have to do that.

[edited for profanity bypass]

heaven13

tmbrinks wrote: »

dmnqwkb16_ESO wrote: »

I've been playing ESO for 10 years, MMOs for 20 and DnD for 30 (I know the numbers don't quite line up, but it makes a more compelling story )

In World of Warcraft there was a cute fuzzy mount called an Amani War Bear, available for characters who could complete a 10 man instance within a strict time limit. I was living in the EU but played on the US servers, so I'd wake up at 4:45am to log on and complete the run each week on my Druid tank, with us pretty successful each week.
Now, one week a healer couldn't make it and we could only find a substitute tank, so I switched from my Druid tank to my Shaman healer.... and wouldn't you know, that one week I ended up getting the mount... ON THE WRONG CHARACTER!

For years, I got stuck with my Amani War Bear on the wrong character, bringing me heartache every time I logged on knowing I could never get that mount (it was no longer able to be earned) on the character who actually put in the work to earn it... until, after many years down the line... mounts became ACCOUNT WIDE! So at long last, the character who DESERVED THE MOUNT finally got to RIDE THE MOUNT (I mean, seriously, one week out of 10 I switch and that's my turn for the mount, sheesh).

From the roleplaying perspective, I can appreciate you might've put a lot of effort into a character to earn specific things, of which you want the rest of your characters to be able to enjoy the accomplishments of... but honestly, the character is nothing with you. They didn't earn ANYTHING without you at the helm. So the achievements never EVER belonged to a single character, they always belonged to the player. It can be frustrating how that affects your story, or even how the character's story is brought to life, but it's a fact of the game.

I, personally, can see why people are upset over this change but I cannot agree with it. Stories need to adapt with time and while a large amount of frustration is generated when things don't go your way, it's important to understand how frustrating the game would be if, for example, NOTHING was shared between characters...

Imagine, if you will, these scenarios:

1. Single character. No alts allowed, no DELETING your character to change classes... you'd need to purchase the entire game again to switch. [there are people who'd be okay with this, before you suggest it would be insane]
2. One and done achievements. This would mean if you earned a dye on 1 character, it was NOT shared with another. If you learned a crafting motif, nobody else could share it too. Worm Wizard on your alt by mistake? Your main is never getting it! [heavily restrictive but why not eh?]
3. Everything is shared. No character is an individual, it's just your account showing what you've done. [each character is just a number]

Now, looking at all 3 of those... they each look crazy to some people and rational to others. It's a problem with shared space and the belief that if 10 people share your opinion, you're right. Account-wide may hamper your own ability to tell a story with your characters, but it's not impossible. There are plenty of people who set up spreadsheets for various reasons in game (trading, for example) and while you may not WANT to do the work... it'd be real simple for you to track the achievements yourself if it was that much of an issue. Sure, it'd be tons of work and super dull, but it's an option that exists. Yes it sucks that you'd have to put more work in to repeat Master Angler on a second character, but as it's the player completing it and not the character... the story is up to you

For those who think a character matters in terms of 'link achievement' that's definitely a fallacy, because I could earn a trifecta achievement as a tank, then re-spec to another role and they'd never know! (Having once raided 4 raids in a single day as 3 specs on the same character, it's definitely a possibility )

Overall, this change is something which will definitely make some people's lives worse and may see dozens, if not hundreds of people leave the game. Leaving a game is a good thing if it's not fun anymore, and it sucks if you're the one no longer having fun. I think AWA is excellent for me, and if I didn't make it clear I am in favour of it I'd be doing a disservice to others posting this, and think that it simply has far too many benefits to not be brought in! Though I'll be sorry to see those who cannot cope with the change leave (and yes, there will be many who do not wish to separate the fantasy of each character from the reality of them being controlled by a single person who puppeteers their every move).

You're talking about WoW...

Mounts, dyes, style pages, etc... are account-wide already in ESO. It's a nice anecdote, but literally doesn't apply to this situation.

Not only that but when WoW added AwA, they did it the way we wanted ESO to do it. Both. Character achievements were not deleted in the process. There’s a nice article linked in this thread detailing how WoW did it right.

jle30303

Consider a comparison with Steam Achievements on Skyrim.

You can get the achievement for "completing the Dark Brotherhood quest storyline".

If you start a second character, you still have that Achievement - but the quest storyline, because it is remembered separately, is still incomplete.

So, on that second character, you might choose to destroy the Brotherhood instead, and get the Achievement for that.

Now you have both Achievements. Even if you delete one or both characters. But the characters exist(ed) in separate instances, separate timelines, you aren't in a state where you have both destroyed the DB AND completed the questline on any specific given character.

And when you start a third character, and decide that THIS time you really are going to play a pure caster-type mage and not end up converting it into yet another stealth archer after the first three quests... You still have the Achievements, which are global and account-wide, BUT, your actual quest progress starts off at the beginning.

Account-wide achievements are good. Account-wide COMPLETION is bad. Completion - of any quest line, or side quest, or even individual features such as Dolmens, WBs, Dungeons, Delves - SHOULD BE DIVORCED FROM ACHIEVEMENTS.

ghastley

Now it has gone live, I'm amazed that the basic math wasn't corrected.

If two characters each know four crafting styles, and they both know two of those four. e.g
Character 1 knows Orc Bretom, Wood Elf and Redguard
Character 2 knows Orc, Breton, Argonian, and Dark Elf
then the account as a whole knows six styles. NOT EIGHT!

The same failure seems to apply in several other situations where it should be counting distinct occurrences but is simply adding instead. Quests completed in a zone is another, unlocking housing if you just have enough characters who've all done the same few quests.

Was a DISTINCT keyword left out of some SQL request?

code65536

ghastley wrote: »

Now it has gone live, I'm amazed that the basic math wasn't corrected.

If two characters each know four crafting styles, and they both know two of those four. e.g
Character 1 knows Orc Bretom, Wood Elf and Redguard
Character 2 knows Orc, Breton, Argonian, and Dark Elf
then the account as a whole knows six styles. NOT EIGHT!

The same failure seems to apply in several other situations where it should be counting distinct occurrences but is simply adding instead. Quests completed in a zone is another, unlocking housing if you just have enough characters who've all done the same few quests.

Was a DISTINCT keyword left out of some SQL request?

That's one of the quirks of the merger process, as the achievement data that was being merged is just a simple count--uniqueness data was not preserved in and could not have been taken into account.

This also affects achievements for number of completed unique quests.

ArchangelIsraphel

Jimbru wrote: »

Guild Wars 2 takes the approach that almost everything on characters is shared -- bank, dyes, achievements, titles, etc. -- EXCEPT achievements related to map exploration and completion of the story. Those are unique to each character. So while all the background infrastructure type stuff is shared so you don't have to redevelop all of it on each character, each character still has their own unique story, re-discovering the world and playing through the story content. You could almost think of your characters as sort of their own mini-guild, sharing their base of operations but each on their own path. That's the system I think ESO should emulate.

I agree. This and, to some extent, the system present in WoW was what a lot of people were referencing when we were discussing better ways to implement AwA, so that independent character tracking and goals could still exist while there were account level achievements. In my opinion, these games did AWA correctly. Even if I still prefer the old character tracking on ESO and feel it is more robust/fun, I would have found a solution like those in GW2 or WoW far more acceptable and professional on the part of ZoS. But, instead, we're left with a very broken game and poor world continuity for alts that really spoils ESO's beautiful narrative cohesion.

Sadly, there are those in this thread saying we're requesting something that "defeats the purpose of AWA" when really...we're asking for something no different than what other games who DID AWA RIGHT have, instead of a horrid system that nullifies content for alternate characters. ESO's AWA is inferior to the tracking in these games by a long shot. Heck, its inferior even to Skyrims, where although you could get an account level achievement, you still had independent tracking present every time you started a new game.

As for those still using the "the player achieves things not the character" argument, as a player, I'd like to be able to actually track my characters progress on a new alt without jumping through hoops in order to do so. Having the zone guide already filled in for certain things on new characters is unacceptable, and although addons have been created to solve the issue, it should not have been one to begin with. What has been implemented is not QOL, it's an inconvenience. We used to have a working system where you could easily see, as a player, what you have and have not done on a new character in terms of delves and bosses. Now we don't.

And on that subject, going off on a bit of a tangent, as someone who would have liked to retain independent character tracking for story purposes, I know very well as a player I'm the one driving my characters behind the wheel. So does everyone else in this thread who has had "the player achieves things, not the character" repeated at them. We're aware of that. Why? Because we're the one creating a story through our characters, and having that independent tracking gave us, AS A PLAYER BEHIND THE WHEEL, the ability to make choices as to how we wanted to steer the car.

As a player, I could choose how I felt my character would reach in a situation, what they would pursue, where they would go. AS A PLAYER, I was crafting the story I wanted to create through my choices by using the achievement system as a tool. We are wholly and completely aware that we are achieving things AS A PLAYER- but we are doing it on independent characters to create each story. Having my choices AS A PLAYER made null by AWA to the point where, in some cases, I cannot even choose alternate endings to quests in order to pursue independent paths for different characters is unacceptable. Yes, we are the ones achieving things- on characters we crafted as individuals, and having our achievements and efforts on those individuals AS PLAYERS removed to the point where our accounts have become a seamless mush without add-ons is ridiculous. I can't track -what I as a player need to track-

Yes, indeed THE PLAYER is achieving things, and THE PLAYER is very annoyed that they can no longer do so on a per-character basis. We've had this quoted at us so many times, and its a huge misconception as to how we actually feel and what we actually want. So, yes, I agree- the player does achieve things! And as such, as players, we wanted to be able to do that multiple times on separate characters in order to make alternate choices so that we, as players, could craft individual stories, not have the entire account treated as if every single character we make is part of some kind of weird meta.

I as the player behind the wheel, I want to steer the car, not have it set on per-determined tracks for me from the moment of character creation simply because I once made a choice in the past while driving a different car.