PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

maximusrex45

Mushroomancer wrote: »

I really think the simplest solution to this is having a "dual" system for achievements. That means having an account-wide achievements list, alongside a character-specific one. The way I would make it work is that progress towards achievements is counted for single characters first and then cumulated into the account-wide list.
The achievement is considered completed on the account-wide list the first time it is achieved by any character, or the first time the collective "efforts" of all characters are satisfactory for the completion of "complete the listed achievements", "cumulative" ("[blank] adventurer" and the likes), and "collection-style" achievements (monster trophies and the likes). Once an achievement is completed, the related rewards are available account-wide, including titles.
At the same time, each achievement can still be completed on a single character, allowing for people to re-obtain them multiple times, pretty much like it is in the current system.

This isn't a compromise as it removes what people for account wide achievements mostly want, not to feel like playing an alt is delaying completing achievements because progress is getting split across the account.

There are a lot of issues with the current implementation, account wide achievements shouldn't change the Zone Guide completion, delve completion, or eliminate quest availability.

maximusrex45

IronWooshu wrote: »

I feel like any achievements that need an accumulation of something and monster trophies should be account wide. Quests/Dungeons should be individual.

250 dolmen completions, account wide please, 1000 pick pockets, account wide please, 1000 treasure chests, 10,000 crafting nodes harvested, account wide please.

Things like that. Not individual character accomplishments. I will go thru the lists of achievements for base game later today and try and make a list of what should and shouldn't be.

Pretty much anything in zone guide shouldn't be.

This and Holiday/Event stuff I would like account wide, Zone/Delve/Dungeon stuff I am fine with being character based, perhaps with an Account Wide roll up listed who has done it so you know.

anadandy

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just to add my 2 drakes to this, here are some honorable mentions of the people who worked on ESO at launch and are no longer there: (There are many many more, these are just a few of the major ones.)
Nick Konkle - Lead Gameplay Designer
Lawrence Schick - Lore Master (He also worked with Gary Gygax at TSR)
Brian Wheeler - Lead PvP Designer
Eric Wrobel - Lead Combat Designer
Wynne McLaughlin - Lead Writer

Wait. Wheeler left?

Well, haven't seen anything posted by him since about 2017, so I think so...
PS.. REALY miss Paul's shirts! Lol

Wheeler got promoted to combat lead when Wrobel left in 2019. Whether he's still around, idk.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453748/combat-team-news-and-updates/

silvereyes

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just to add my 2 drakes to this, here are some honorable mentions of the people who worked on ESO at launch and are no longer there: (There are many many more, these are just a few of the major ones.)
Nick Konkle - Lead Gameplay Designer
Lawrence Schick - Lore Master (He also worked with Gary Gygax at TSR)
Brian Wheeler - Lead PvP Designer
Eric Wrobel - Lead Combat Designer
Wynne McLaughlin - Lead Writer

Wait. Wheeler left?

Well, haven't seen anything posted by him since about 2017, so I think so...
PS.. REALY miss Paul's shirts! Lol

He posted before Update 30, but he's been lying low since the pandemic hit. Probably took a lesson from Wrobel and is trying to not be everyone's favorite target. I hope he's okay.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

silvereyes wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just to add my 2 drakes to this, here are some honorable mentions of the people who worked on ESO at launch and are no longer there: (There are many many more, these are just a few of the major ones.)
Nick Konkle - Lead Gameplay Designer
Lawrence Schick - Lore Master (He also worked with Gary Gygax at TSR)
Brian Wheeler - Lead PvP Designer
Eric Wrobel - Lead Combat Designer
Wynne McLaughlin - Lead Writer

Wait. Wheeler left?

Well, haven't seen anything posted by him since about 2017, so I think so...
PS.. REALY miss Paul's shirts! Lol

He posted before Update 30, but he's been lying low since the pandemic hit. Probably took a lesson from Wrobel and is trying to not be everyone's favorite target. I hope he's okay.

Good to know. Hope he's ok too!

AlnilamE

maximusrex45 wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

I feel like any achievements that need an accumulation of something and monster trophies should be account wide. Quests/Dungeons should be individual.

250 dolmen completions, account wide please, 1000 pick pockets, account wide please, 1000 treasure chests, 10,000 crafting nodes harvested, account wide please.

Things like that. Not individual character accomplishments. I will go thru the lists of achievements for base game later today and try and make a list of what should and shouldn't be.

Pretty much anything in zone guide shouldn't be.

This and Holiday/Event stuff I would like account wide, Zone/Delve/Dungeon stuff I am fine with being character based, perhaps with an Account Wide roll up listed who has done it so you know.

But the events are repeated every year, and since you want tickets you end up doing it, so getting achievements on the next alt is a way of reducing the grind.

silvereyes

Cleveland521 wrote: »

Will pvp titles be Acct wide in update 33
I didn’t see a question on it.

Titles, yes. Ranks, no. You still have to work alts up through the ranks - and you still get skill points for doing so - but you can stick a Grand Overlord or Former Emperor title on a raw recruit, if you want.

ealdwin

At the risk of rehashing already argued and debated points, I've come to understand the points of view in favor and against account-wide achievements (in general, not just the current flawed implementation) as stemming from two desires:

- A desire for sense of accomplishment with a specific character
- A desire for sense of accomplishment by a specific player

Based on that understanding, I still retain the belief that the two tab system (Character-Specific, Account-Wide-Overview) would fulfill those desires.

Most photo-editing software, such as Photoshop operate with what are called Layers. These layers contain their own individual data and can be manipulated without affecting the contents of the other layers. When all the layers are toggled on, they form the complete picture, that if one were to hit File>Export, would be then exported as a flat image. The key being that any changes on an individual layer have no effect on the others, just the complete picture.

Characters need to be thought of and treated like layers. They each have their own information and achievements earned by those characters. Some people have characters for specific purposes. Much like a layer may be used for specifically editing an eye, some have characters for specifically thieving. Ideally, each character wouldn't have an impact on the other. A no-kill character wouldn't have their record marred by the DB murderer, just like the eye layer shouldn't be affected by an edit on the hair layer.

What ZOS's current implementation is doing is merging all those layers into one singular layer/image. Such a command exists in Photoshop, and the process flattens all the layers into one that contains all the data from each of the layer but removes the differences. The individual color-balance or hue-saturation masks that were on the eyes and hairs and teeth can no longer be tweaked individually. Trying to make the eye blue will now also change the hair color. No-kill characters lose their distinctions to prove their status, and thief characters now provide achievements to the stand up citizens. Sure, it satisfies the desire of accomplishment by the player, but at the cost of accomplishment by a specific character.

An Account-Wide-Overview tab would be akin to making all the layers visible on Photoshop so one can view the whole picture. They can see the changes to the eye and the teeth and the hair all at once, but still be able to go in and edit each component specifically. The layers are retained and with them their data and information. But the complete picture can also be viewed and exported if needed. It's never wise to flatten all the layers in the Photoshop into one, because once the application is closed the changes are sealed. The layers that once were are gone and cannot be edited anymore. In a similar vein, it would not be wise of ZOS to simply merge all achievements into one. That sacrifices the first desire to satisfy the second. An Account-Wide-Overview, however, would allow players to see their complete picture while retaining the information of their character layers. It allows both desires to be satisfied at once.

I say this as one who wants to be able to see that entire picture. When I heard that account-wide achievements were going to be a thing, this is what I pictured. That I would be able to see the complete picture of me as a player, the achievements of my account, while still being able to see the individual layers that are my characters.

I know that I am just continuing to beat a dead horse, but in ESO horses never really die, so... My point is this. Please, ZOS, listen to what the players are saying and reconsider the implementation. Flattening all the layers in Photoshop is something that I never do when editing photos. When I need the complete picture I merge them into a new layer or export it as a PNG. I don't delete the data of the individual layers. Don't rush this through and remove the achievements of the individual characters. Delay this feature if need be, it won't be the unpopular decision. 30 pages of a forum thread can attest to that.

DarcyMardin

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

SalamanNZ wrote: »

Can someone tell me if crafting and pvp achievements are part of this. Eg. I have spent hours harvesting to have almost 10000 on one character. I don't want the harvesting from my other characters to add together to make 10000

On PTS V7.3.0/7.3.1, I logged-on all 18 of my North American characters, then deleted 1 character and created a new (level 3)
(Snip)
PvP:
In short, the achievements for Alliance War rank are character specific, but the Titles for Alliance War rank are account wide. For Player-vs-Player achievements, most seem to be account wide, with the exception of the PvP/Alliance War achievements for Aliance War rank. However, the new character may display the Title for alliance war rank earned by other characters. For example, your new level 3 character may display the "Grand Overlord" title, even though the new character doesn't have the "Grand Overlord" rank achievement. Also, the correct symbol for the character's actual Alliance War rank will be displayed over the head of its avatar.

Personally, I think it’s totally bizarre and messed up that a level 3 character, who can’t even enter Cyrodiil until level 10, can display the title of Grand Overlord.

wolfie1.0.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Please stop speaking for everyone.
"This game will lose replay value", "all veteran players will leave", "why new characters are needed" and so on. We have explained why this is not the case. It's really sad that this is such a tragedy for you. But there are not a few of those for whom it is a tragedy to receive achievements past the general progress.

Look I am speaking for me. This is what I feel. But you are also speaking for people when you say what you are saying.

Jaraal

DarcyMardin wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

SalamanNZ wrote: »

Can someone tell me if crafting and pvp achievements are part of this. Eg. I have spent hours harvesting to have almost 10000 on one character. I don't want the harvesting from my other characters to add together to make 10000

On PTS V7.3.0/7.3.1, I logged-on all 18 of my North American characters, then deleted 1 character and created a new (level 3)
(Snip)
PvP:
In short, the achievements for Alliance War rank are character specific, but the Titles for Alliance War rank are account wide. For Player-vs-Player achievements, most seem to be account wide, with the exception of the PvP/Alliance War achievements for Aliance War rank. However, the new character may display the Title for alliance war rank earned by other characters. For example, your new level 3 character may display the "Grand Overlord" title, even though the new character doesn't have the "Grand Overlord" rank achievement. Also, the correct symbol for the character's actual Alliance War rank will be displayed over the head of its avatar.

Personally, I think it’s totally bizarre and messed up that a level 3 character, who can’t even enter Cyrodiil until level 10, can display the title of Grand Overlord.

ZOS knows that many people don’t want to work to actually earn titles on alternate characters, so this whole thing is basically catering to that mindset.

Elsonso

Jaraal wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

SalamanNZ wrote: »

Can someone tell me if crafting and pvp achievements are part of this. Eg. I have spent hours harvesting to have almost 10000 on one character. I don't want the harvesting from my other characters to add together to make 10000

On PTS V7.3.0/7.3.1, I logged-on all 18 of my North American characters, then deleted 1 character and created a new (level 3)
(Snip)
PvP:
In short, the achievements for Alliance War rank are character specific, but the Titles for Alliance War rank are account wide. For Player-vs-Player achievements, most seem to be account wide, with the exception of the PvP/Alliance War achievements for Aliance War rank. However, the new character may display the Title for alliance war rank earned by other characters. For example, your new level 3 character may display the "Grand Overlord" title, even though the new character doesn't have the "Grand Overlord" rank achievement. Also, the correct symbol for the character's actual Alliance War rank will be displayed over the head of its avatar.

Personally, I think it’s totally bizarre and messed up that a level 3 character, who can’t even enter Cyrodiil until level 10, can display the title of Grand Overlord.

ZOS knows that many people don’t want to work to actually earn titles on alternate characters, so this whole thing is basically catering to that mindset.

If it was just that, I think fewer people would be upset concerned closely monitoring the situation.

Fennwitty

DarcyMardin wrote: »

HumbleThaumaturge wrote: »

SalamanNZ wrote: »

Can someone tell me if crafting and pvp achievements are part of this. Eg. I have spent hours harvesting to have almost 10000 on one character. I don't want the harvesting from my other characters to add together to make 10000

On PTS V7.3.0/7.3.1, I logged-on all 18 of my North American characters, then deleted 1 character and created a new (level 3)
(Snip)
PvP:
In short, the achievements for Alliance War rank are character specific, but the Titles for Alliance War rank are account wide. For Player-vs-Player achievements, most seem to be account wide, with the exception of the PvP/Alliance War achievements for Aliance War rank. However, the new character may display the Title for alliance war rank earned by other characters. For example, your new level 3 character may display the "Grand Overlord" title, even though the new character doesn't have the "Grand Overlord" rank achievement. Also, the correct symbol for the character's actual Alliance War rank will be displayed over the head of its avatar.

Personally, I think it’s totally bizarre and messed up that a level 3 character, who can’t even enter Cyrodiil until level 10, can display the title of Grand Overlord.

How long do you intend that character to remain level 3?

If you're using it, you'll hit level 50 eventually ...

It's a little weird if you think about it, but so is a lot in this game.

In the scheme of things, replayability is more concerning to me.

peacenote

ealdwin wrote: »

At the risk of rehashing already argued and debated points, I've come to understand the points of view in favor and against account-wide achievements (in general, not just the current flawed implementation) as stemming from two desires:

- A desire for sense of accomplishment with a specific character
- A desire for sense of accomplishment by a specific player

Based on that understanding, I still retain the belief that the two tab system (Character-Specific, Account-Wide-Overview) would fulfill those desires.

Most photo-editing software, such as Photoshop operate with what are called Layers. These layers contain their own individual data and can be manipulated without affecting the contents of the other layers. When all the layers are toggled on, they form the complete picture, that if one were to hit File>Export, would be then exported as a flat image. The key being that any changes on an individual layer have no effect on the others, just the complete picture.

Characters need to be thought of and treated like layers. They each have their own information and achievements earned by those characters. Some people have characters for specific purposes. Much like a layer may be used for specifically editing an eye, some have characters for specifically thieving. Ideally, each character wouldn't have an impact on the other. A no-kill character wouldn't have their record marred by the DB murderer, just like the eye layer shouldn't be affected by an edit on the hair layer.

What ZOS's current implementation is doing is merging all those layers into one singular layer/image. Such a command exists in Photoshop, and the process flattens all the layers into one that contains all the data from each of the layer but removes the differences. The individual color-balance or hue-saturation masks that were on the eyes and hairs and teeth can no longer be tweaked individually. Trying to make the eye blue will now also change the hair color. No-kill characters lose their distinctions to prove their status, and thief characters now provide achievements to the stand up citizens. Sure, it satisfies the desire of accomplishment by the player, but at the cost of accomplishment by a specific character.

An Account-Wide-Overview tab would be akin to making all the layers visible on Photoshop so one can view the whole picture. They can see the changes to the eye and the teeth and the hair all at once, but still be able to go in and edit each component specifically. The layers are retained and with them their data and information. But the complete picture can also be viewed and exported if needed. It's never wise to flatten all the layers in the Photoshop into one, because once the application is closed the changes are sealed. The layers that once were are gone and cannot be edited anymore. In a similar vein, it would not be wise of ZOS to simply merge all achievements into one. That sacrifices the first desire to satisfy the second. An Account-Wide-Overview, however, would allow players to see their complete picture while retaining the information of their character layers. It allows both desires to be satisfied at once.

I say this as one who wants to be able to see that entire picture. When I heard that account-wide achievements were going to be a thing, this is what I pictured. That I would be able to see the complete picture of me as a player, the achievements of my account, while still being able to see the individual layers that are my characters.

I know that I am just continuing to beat a dead horse, but in ESO horses never really die, so... My point is this. Please, ZOS, listen to what the players are saying and reconsider the implementation. Flattening all the layers in Photoshop is something that I never do when editing photos. When I need the complete picture I merge them into a new layer or export it as a PNG. I don't delete the data of the individual layers. Don't rush this through and remove the achievements of the individual characters. Delay this feature if need be, it won't be the unpopular decision. 30 pages of a forum thread can attest to that.

OK, as I love photography I had to comment and say that I really enjoyed this comparison. When people talked about "account-wide" achievements I, too, assumed that this is what we would get. An added layer.

maximusrex45 wrote: »

Mushroomancer wrote: »

I really think the simplest solution to this is having a "dual" system for achievements. That means having an account-wide achievements list, alongside a character-specific one. The way I would make it work is that progress towards achievements is counted for single characters first and then cumulated into the account-wide list.
The achievement is considered completed on the account-wide list the first time it is achieved by any character, or the first time the collective "efforts" of all characters are satisfactory for the completion of "complete the listed achievements", "cumulative" ("[blank] adventurer" and the likes), and "collection-style" achievements (monster trophies and the likes). Once an achievement is completed, the related rewards are available account-wide, including titles.
At the same time, each achievement can still be completed on a single character, allowing for people to re-obtain them multiple times, pretty much like it is in the current system.

This isn't a compromise as it removes what people for account wide achievements mostly want, not to feel like playing an alt is delaying completing achievements because progress is getting split across the account.

There are a lot of issues with the current implementation, account wide achievements shouldn't change the Zone Guide completion, delve completion, or eliminate quest availability.

I think if the folks who really don't like shared titles and rewards can come to terms with internally keeping track of whether a character earned something, and choosing not to equip it if they did not, based on checking per-character achievements, and folks who really only want account-wide only achievements could choose to only view the account-wide list and just ignore a per-character list... it's the epitome of a what a compromise should be! This way everyone could "play as they wanted" without the game absolutely, utterly forcing anyone into a play style. All it asks is that everyone is willing to bend a little to "allow" the other views the options they'd like instead of insisting that those options be completely removed. Let people use titles account-wide; you can still choose not to. Let people see their per-character achievements; you could choose to not look at them. Choice is usually better in such a broad game that appeals to so many different kinds of players.

So I do think it's a decent "compromise" for the people on the most extreme sides this discussion. AND I think it was the hope all along for, say, ~50% of the player base (if you oversimplify and say 25% don't want titles shared and 25% are upset if per-character data exists at all). And honestly I'm not sure there is that high of a percentage in either extreme. It's probably more like 15%, 15%, and 70%.

It's been said before, and I know it is true that the forums don't necessarily represent the whole community, nor does it even necessarily matter if we could prove that 100% of the community is unified in a wish if ZOS has a creative vision to the contrary... but anecdotally I have seen more comments by people who said "I joined the forums just to comment on this" or "I thought this feature (account-wide achievements) would give me an extra view, not erase my character's progress" than I have seen, combined, for almost the entire history of major changes that have rolled out to this game. I truly believe there was a significant disconnect between what ZOS thought the whole community wanted vs. what a lot of people actually had in mind, and I really hope a change to the current PTS implementation is considered.

It makes ZERO sense that companions have a per-character reputation grind, while the very next year this concept of account-wide achievements is being considered. ZOS really needs to pick a vision, explain it, and then be consistent with it. Right now it seems like ESO can't quite decide what it wants to be anymore, and it has forgotten why it has had loyal followers NOT playing "those other games" for 8 years, focusing more on trying to scoop up new players, not realizing it might ruin ESO for a good portion of current loyal customers in the process. You expect me to maintain a separate relationship with four companions on each character, while not being able to track when each character gets a speed run or explores an area for the first time?!? This is so illogical I can barely stand it. Account-wide rewards and character-specific progress is the direction this game has been going for a long time. Can we please stick with that?

Here are some related thoughts and features that show the game is not really consistent at the moment.

Account-wide Rewards:

• Bound gear was changed from being character-specific to account-bound many years ago. This was a very significant change to reduce grind and those of us with alts breathed a huge sigh of relief.
• Stickerbook is account-wide. It goes along with gear being account bound.
• Style pages are account-wide. If you consider them an "earned reward," I can get on board with this.
• Collectibles are account-wide. These are "rewards" so, sure, OK.
• Dyes are account-wide. Again, consistent.
• Gold can be passed between characters via the bank. So it's really account-wide. Gold is a reward.
• Event tickets can be earned per day per account. What are they? Oh, right, they're a reward.
• Daily Login Rewards. Any character can accept them, and multiple characters cannot accept them. It's a reward... built right into the name.
• Housing is account-wide. Buy a house, every character can access it, it looks the same no matter who logs in, and all characters can move/decorate the house when they are in it. Houses are something you can purchase or sometimes get... oh, right, as a REWARD in game for a quest or event.

Character-specific Settings:

• Hireling mails are per-character. This makes sense. It is based on each individual character's crafting progress and if you have points in that skill.
• Outfit slots were stubbornly kept character-specific, despite many objections. Well, OK. It kind of makes sense, even though it seemed too much like monetization. Since how a character looks is character specific...
• Pack space upgrades are still per-character. Since they are individual characters who wouldn't all magically carry the same bag, while annoying, it makes sense.
• Daily repeatable quests are per-character. This makes sense, since in the world they are individual entities.
• Companions - unlocking and reputation. I find this frustrating, but it DOES make sense if we still take the stance that each character is different in the world of Tamriel. Really Companions are like US. They are the same skill level, loadout, etc, no matter who they travel with, but they would have a different relationship and feelings about each person.
• Builds in the Armory - same thing as outfits.
• Tokens to change race/appearance can only be used on a specific character, as opposed to being able to activate a token and letting us change ALL characters with one token. This of course makes sense because race and appearance are specific to each character!
• Character-specific defaults: From individual names, to what pet and mount is active, to what's in the quick slot, to equipped gear, to CP point allocation... each character has individual settings which "stick" until changed while logged into the character. If I have a pet indrik out on my stam sorc it doesn't replace my terrier with an indrik when I swap to my necro tank. This makes sense because each character is considered a different entity in the game.

Stuff that is a bit of a stretch now (inconsistent):

• Horse training. It made sense to be per-character when we bought mounts per-character, and we were making the ACTUAL HORSES better. Now we're expected to look at it as if it is a skill (I think?) - each character needs to learn how to ride fast, with stamina, and hold things. I mean, it's kind of OK, but if we were training our mounts before, and our mounts are account-bound now, why do we still do this per character? Either way, it's a grind that maybe serves little purpose except to be a gold sink at the worst possible time for anyone - when they are first starting out. And it makes no sense that the same mount, usable by all characters, can't hold as much from character to character. It is the exact opposite logic of Companions. Of course, the equivalent logic would have us train each and every collectible which would be way, way worse.
• Per character motif knowledge. OK, we used to have crafters and swap to our crafters and that is something that's a traditional MMO thing. But now we "win" styles across the account. You could make the argument that since motifs are books and knowledge, it should be character specific, but frankly I've been done with the motif-specific idea since the second styles were introduced. Nobody cares that your crafter knows a motif. Update how master writs work (use another way to judge crafter experience, like writs completed as opposed to motifs known), and make the motifs account bound. Let's pretend that access to knowledge of a style and a motif happens the same way in the game... whatever allows all of our characters to see the styles, they can see motifs too.
• Per character recipe knowledge. Again, if I deconstruct an item and suddenly anyone on my account can reconstruct it, why if I learn how to make a measly soup is this knowledge hidden from everyone else?
• Research traits / transmutation: I can understand why each character must invest in the skills per craft to be able to get a hireling, get deconstruction bonuses, and so on. But somewhere along the line, when transmutation was introduced, we got a bit of a bait and switch - even though I'm a crafter and I researched everything, I can't transmute other people's gear like I could craft 9 trait gear. Researching traits switched from a crafting-specific benefit to something that everyone who wants to change traits must do. Earn your own crystals, unlock your own traits. OK; then why can't all the characters have access to this when anyone learns it? That's what happens with style pages. That's what happens with dyes. It's crazy inconsistent and a grind that's a hold over from a different time. I say give up the per-character research, make it account-wide, and give the people who did it per character something special, like Crowns or Endeavors or a special title like "Researcher" which unlocks account-wide but can't be unlocked after research is collapsed to be account-only.
• AND... if PTS goes live as-is... taking away the ability to track when each character does something when ALLL of these other things are still character-specific, many of them much more nonsensical and more of a grind than achievements, which are required for almost nothing now (except titles and purchasing furniture). It's a self-enforced grind. I mean, folks are excited, feeling that account-wide achievements are removing a grind when the biggest per-character time sinks with ACTUAL ramifications are still in the game!

For things like motifs, if it really seems too painful/costly to make them account-wide, give us a dialog that states "which character should learn this?".

Only ZOS knows how much money they actually make from research scrolls, horse scrolls, and motif purchases to build out multiple characters. I feel like it can't be TOO much - I'd bet they take in way more with Skyshards and skill line purchases. However, it seems ironic that the thing that seems to make the most sense to stay character-specific (character-specific data) is being eliminated and praised as reducing grind while almost all of our ACTUAL grind remains, because they are things customers will pay for to go away.

Come to think of it.... there WOULD be another compromise, then. Open up the ability to buy achievement completions on characters in the Crown Store. We could buy sections as soon as one character did them. I bet the "let's keep both views" compromise seems like a much better one in comparison.

I'll admit that was a bit of a tangent, but it is part of what's been frustrating me about this whole thing. ZOS has made a lot of consistent choices about account vs. character over the years, such that the direction seemed clear, but this change doesn't align with the exhibited philosophies at all. It seems to be a complete change and in direct conflict with the message we were given last year, considering how companions work.

Fennwitty

By the way: Even with achievement sharing across 10 characters and more than 2 years of uninterrupted play ... I have only unlocked TWO of the EIGHT monster trophy achievements.

silvereyes

ealdwin wrote: »

At the risk of rehashing already argued and debated points, I've come to understand the points of view in favor and against account-wide achievements (in general, not just the current flawed implementation) as stemming from two desires:

- A desire for sense of accomplishment with a specific character
- A desire for sense of accomplishment by a specific player

You forgot the third category. People who aren't overly concerned about achievements, titles or dyes, and just want our game to not break.

maximusrex45

maximusrex45 wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

I feel like any achievements that need an accumulation of something and monster trophies should be account wide. Quests/Dungeons should be individual.

250 dolmen completions, account wide please, 1000 pick pockets, account wide please, 1000 treasure chests, 10,000 crafting nodes harvested, account wide please.

Things like that. Not individual character accomplishments. I will go thru the lists of achievements for base game later today and try and make a list of what should and shouldn't be.

Pretty much anything in zone guide shouldn't be.

This and Holiday/Event stuff I would like account wide, Zone/Delve/Dungeon stuff I am fine with being character based, perhaps with an Account Wide roll up listed who has done it so you know.

But the events are repeated every year, and since you want tickets you end up doing it, so getting achievements on the next alt is a way of reducing the grind.[/quote]

It also forces a player to only play one character when doing the event or have partially done achievements all over. And the Achievements also add even more requirements outside of what you need to do for tickets to complete them, that is more grind, not less.

DeathStalker

I think it is a shame that so much was missed with this attempt. I wish for example that Cladwell's silver and gold were made optional and not auto pop up in your quest book. this would be a perfect opportunity to do it.

iyx

At first I liked the idea of ​​having account-wide achivements, but now, after reading how all of this implemented on pts... no, just no, it's one big mess and includes things that should not be merged.

I've been slowly going through all the zones and story quests along with a friend who has the first character, while I have the second. I like that you can enjoy the game again by creating a fresh character without investing champion points, have a zero progress in zones in order to be on equal terms with a novice party member.
Now I'm starting to worry that the new system will ruin this experience and make it uncomfortable and uneven for us, that I'll have to look for some other way to track progress, and I don't even know how. Or I'll just won't login on my main.

But I don't mind at all if account-wide achivements will be made optional, OFF by default.

Dayhjawk

You know what, I earned the achievements, so i'm hyped for account wide achievements so they wil be easier to track. I do not see, oh I did this on this toon, or on that toon. I see it as I earned this achievement. I hate that it's character based, and rather looking forward to it being account based.

Khenarthi

I'm very worried about being locked out of skill points on this change (example of the Rimmen 2-queens-one-throne situation), and having no way to track which character has earned which skill point when it goes live. I PLAY 18 characters, I guess I will screenshot all their current completion and skill points earned before this goes live... such a hassle.

RaddlemanNumber7

Account-wide Achievements come hand-in-hand with a heavy dose of planned obsolescence.

Up to now Achievements have been "do it once, then do it all again, as many times as you like". The very essence of buy-to-play.

With Update 33 almost all Achievements will be "once and done", for all time, never to be repeated.

For someone like me, who has already done it all many times over, Achievements will largely be an obsolete game feature. If I want to have any more Achievements to aim for, if I want to experience the quiet satisfaction of achievement in ESO again, I'd need to buy an expansion, or buy another account. I'd have to buy to play again.

It'll be interesting to see if the introduction of this bit of planned obsolescence is addressed in the upcoming Q&A. But, somehow, I don't think they'll be saying this quiet part loud.

Jaraal

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Account-wide Achievements come hand-in-hand with a heavy dose of planned obsolescence.

Up to now Achievements have been "do it once, then do it all again, as many times as you like". The very essence of buy-to-play.

With Update 33 almost all Achievements will be "once and done", for all time, never to be repeated.

For someone like me, who has already done it all many times over, Achievements will largely be an obsolete game feature. If I want to have any more Achievements to aim for, if I want to experience the quiet satisfaction of achievement in ESO again, I'd need to buy an expansion, or buy another account. I'd have to buy to play again.

It'll be interesting to see if the introduction of this bit of planned obsolescence is addressed in the upcoming Q&A. But, somehow, I don't think they'll be saying this quiet part loud.

Seems odd that they would want to curtail replayability at the same time as pushing such an aggressive development schedule. I could see them phasing out the game in this manner if it were on it's last legs, but there seem to be as many players as ever. Hopefully they'll address why they chose to limit gameplay going forward in the Q and A.

Xarc

well i've got former emperor on 15/18 chars, nothing will be changed about this achievement for me, since it was already global for my account, but the idea to have done this just for a kind of glory is like giving a candy to an athlete at olympics games who ran for gold medail, got the 1st place, and just because he already got it previously, this time and next times the reward will only be a candy ! [snip]


[edited for profanity bypass]

Mephit

Xarc wrote: »

well i've got former emperor on 15/18 chars, nothing will be changed about this achievement for me, since it was already global for my account, but the idea to have done this just for a kind of glory is like giving a candy to an athlete at olympics games who ran for gold medail, got the 1st place, and just because he already got it previously, this time and next times the reward will only be a candy ! [snip]

Or your younger brother gets the gold medal, without having to enter, cos you did...
[edited to remove quote]

Elsonso

Mephit wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

well i've got former emperor on 15/18 chars, nothing will be changed about this achievement for me, since it was already global for my account, but the idea to have done this just for a kind of glory is like giving a candy to an athlete at olympics games who ran for gold medail, got the 1st place, and just because he already got it previously, this time and next times the reward will only be a candy ! [snip]

Or your younger brother gets the gold medal, without having to enter, cos you did...

I am just thinking about how much money I could have saved on raising kids over the years. No nappies after the first kid; the new ones all come with that achievement. No duplicate birthday parties. Birthdays are a meta construct, like leveling up. They don't actually exist, and the kids don't have to know about such things. We aren't actually different between the two days, so once it is celebrated for a given year, none of the other kids need to celebrate it. Many things are already achieved once one of them does it. Achievements like legal drinking age and voting age, would be no problem for the younger kids. I could have gotten them into school, then college, easier. It would just be the grind for "skill points", as all degrees and academic achievements are out of the way. Things get complicated with concepts like "marriage", so I leave that to your imagination.

Yes, I am having a bit of fun this sunny Wednesday morning. Under all that surreal humor is my core point, but you have to earn it. The great news is that once one of you earns the achievement, y'all do!

Fine... TL;DR... I agree with the implied statement I quoted. Not all achievements should be account-based, or even relevant at the account level as "done" or "not done". Some are character-based and need to stay that way. This is the way of the RPG.

[edited to remove quote]

Artemis_Jade

I think making Achievements & Titles Account Wide is a really HORRIBLE ideal! It's going to completely DESTROY Character Immersion! & Without Individual Character Achievements WHAT REASON would players have to REPLAY any of the content on their ALTS?

Is ZOS actually trying to DO AWAY with ALTS? Achievements & Titles are the ONLY REASON to actually REPLAY the content with Multiple Characters!
The Character Achievements & Titles are what makes this game WORTH PLAYING year after year after year! The REPLAY ABILITY gained from Individual Character Achievements & Titles is what makes ESO so much more IMMERSIVE & more fulfilling than "all those other games" that you can literally beat in a week or two! I've personally been throwing my hard earned money at ESO for 6 years straight now!

It really seems like ZOS is catering to Casual/New Players *INSTEAD OF* listening to THEIR LONG TERM BASE & It's unfortunate because it's NOT the casual players that are buying $140 USD Houses from the Crown Store. Casual Players DO NOT buy 15 crown crates at a time. Casual Players AREN'T paying subscription fees every month. Yet, it's the Casual Players that are getting what THEY want from ZOS while dedicated, long term players PAY THE PRICE, literally & figuratively!

The Long-Term Players that pay big $$$ to play this game are same exact Players that have likely played thru the game on MANY different ALTS & have Multiple Characters with Multiple Achievements & Titles & it's a real life SLAP IN THE FACE to those LOYAL Players!!!

8 YEARS into a game & you guys want to totally DO AWAY with all those HARD EARNED Achievements that took your most Loyal Players YEARS to earn??? I've never felt so LET DOWN by a video game before!

I really hope that ZOS implements a GILDED SYSTEM for Achievements, That way Achievements & Titles can still be "Account Wide" but can also be EARNED INDIVIDUALLY on multiple characters. That's the ONLY way I see everybody getting what they want.
However, if given a choice to side with casual/new players OR your long-term loyal base (the players that spend tons of $$$ money & actually log in everyday) I just really hope you guys DON'T end up alienating your loyal base by catering to casual/new players. Altho, just from looking at these comments & that poll, it seems that you already have.

Tandor

Elsonso wrote: »

Mephit wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

well i've got former emperor on 15/18 chars, nothing will be changed about this achievement for me, since it was already global for my account, but the idea to have done this just for a kind of glory is like giving a candy to an athlete at olympics games who ran for gold medail, got the 1st place, and just because he already got it previously, this time and next times the reward will only be a candy ! [snip]

Or your younger brother gets the gold medal, without having to enter, cos you did...

I am just thinking about how much money I could have saved on raising kids over the years. No nappies after the first kid; the new ones all come with that achievement. No duplicate birthday parties. Birthdays are a meta construct, like leveling up. They don't actually exist, and the kids don't have to know about such things. We aren't actually different between the two days, so once it is celebrated for a given year, none of the other kids need to celebrate it. Many things are already achieved once one of them does it. Achievements like legal drinking age and voting age, would be no problem for the younger kids. I could have gotten them into school, then college, easier. It would just be the grind for "skill points", as all degrees and academic achievements are out of the way. Things get complicated with concepts like "marriage", so I leave that to your imagination.

Yes, I am having a bit of fun this sunny Wednesday morning. Under all that surreal humor is my core point, but you have to earn it. The great news is that once one of you earns the achievement, y'all do!

Fine... TL;DR... I agree with the implied statement I quoted. Not all achievements should be account-based, or even relevant at the account level as "done" or "not done". Some are character-based and need to stay that way. This is the way of the RPG.

Well put.

As for your analogy about the younger kids having to grind for the skill points to earn their degrees and academic achievements, I think in that scenario you'd find that once the oldest had got his/her degree the others would be able to buy it in the University Store !

As for marriage, well there are civilisations that practice polygamy, so I guess that's a sort of "account-wide marriage" !

[edited to remove quote]

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Artemis_Jade wrote: »

I think making Achievements & Titles Account Wide is a really HORRIBLE ideal! It's going to completely DESTROY Character Immersion! & Without Individual Character Achievements WHAT REASON would players have to REPLAY any of the content on their ALTS?

Is ZOS actually trying to DO AWAY with ALTS? Achievements & Titles are the ONLY REASON to actually REPLAY the content with Multiple Characters!
The Character Achievements & Titles are what makes this game WORTH PLAYING year after year after year! The REPLAY ABILITY gained from Individual Character Achievements & Titles is what makes ESO so much more IMMERSIVE & more fulfilling than "all those other games" that you can literally beat in a week or two! I've personally been throwing my hard earned money at ESO for 6 years straight now!

It really seems like ZOS is catering to Casual/New Players *INSTEAD OF* listening to THEIR LONG TERM BASE & It's unfortunate because it's NOT the casual players that are buying $140 USD Houses from the Crown Store. Casual Players DO NOT buy 15 crown crates at a time. Casual Players AREN'T paying subscription fees every month. Yet, it's the Casual Players that are getting what THEY want from ZOS while dedicated, long term players PAY THE PRICE, literally & figuratively!

The Long-Term Players that pay big $$$ to play this game are same exact Players that have likely played thru the game on MANY different ALTS & have Multiple Characters with Multiple Achievements & Titles & it's a real life SLAP IN THE FACE to those LOYAL Players!!!

8 YEARS into a game & you guys want to totally DO AWAY with all those HARD EARNED Achievements that took your most Loyal Players YEARS to earn??? I've never felt so LET DOWN by a video game before!

I really hope that ZOS implements a GILDED SYSTEM for Achievements, That way Achievements & Titles can still be "Account Wide" but can also be EARNED INDIVIDUALLY on multiple characters. That's the ONLY way I see everybody getting what they want.
However, if given a choice to side with casual/new players OR your long-term loyal base (the players that spend tons of $$$ money & actually log in everyday) I just really hope you guys DON'T end up alienating your loyal base by catering to casual/new players. Altho, just from looking at these comments & that poll, it seems that you already have.

This as absolutly nothing to do with veteran vs newer player as not all veteran player care about redoing acheivement, they like replaying the game for the game not the little candy at the end

TiaFrye

Elsonso wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

It's a byproduct of most of the current developers not being the same developers that had the original vision when the game was first laid out. Everybody thinks that they can do a better job than those who came before, and it hurts continuity when everything is being changed for the sake of change. Of course, it's up to us as players to decide if it's worth sticking around for or not. It's not like there are a lot of better options currently out there. However, I don't think I've ever seen such a drastic game change that has players using terms like "disgusted", "disrespected", "sick to my stomach", etc.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

"It's a byproduct of most of the current developers not being the same developers that had the original vision when the game was first laid out". Yeah, that's why I keep seeing dev people on the front celebrating their 10th and bigger anniversaries working on this game.
Please stop spreading misinformation just because you are salty.

It is not a completely false statement, though. The original creative director was Paul Sage, and he is the one that laid down the original creative vision for the game. Shortly before launch, he left and Rich Lambert took his place, and the game started to reflect his vision for the game.

Now, I won't say that the current situation is because of any change in vision. I can't say that because I really don't know what all is driving this change. My gut instinct is that it is more than just a few streamers who have been pressuring Rich/ZOS, coupled with people campaigning in here. For a change like this, as it exists on PTS, there is more to it.

One thing is having people who worked on the game since the beginning still being in the lead of its direction and complitely the other thing is having Bioware-like or Blizzard-like situation where with veterans leaving everything started to crumble.

I wouldn't mind if we kept the good old progression model with the story being given to you in the one and only correct order, but again - many people here in this very thread would be really upset because this leaves them on one single path - being the Vestige. You can't skip MQ and pretend like nothing has happened. Roleplay ruined.

As I said before in this thread - every major system rework before had issues, on its own and with people being "disgusted" by the changes. People are angry about anything that touches their comfort zone. But without changes there's only stagnation.
I was among the original 2014 players and I was feed up with people rambling how horrible ESO is.