PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

silvereyes

Salmeyna wrote: »

i just want the possibility taken from me to grind something to reearn something that is missing. The missing part is what bugs me and makes me obsess towards a nigh-unreachable goal. And two different tabs/overview tab/whatever you want to name it is not a solution, nor a compromise.

I think the discussion has mostly moved on from the separate tab being just a rollup report. Lots of people have expressed support for aggregated achievement unlocks - at the very least for grindy unlocks like monster trophies, slayer dyes and achievement furniture - and based on the PTS implementation, it's obviously the direction ZOS is going. Fighting against the concept of no account-wide unlocks is bit of a straw man. They are coming, in some form. Most of us realize this, and - with the exception of titles, which are kind of their own controversial subject - advocates for a separate tab are mostly advocating for the ability to track character activity, not to have any of the achievement rewards unlock separately on each character.

In fact, tracking character-specific progress - in addition to true account-wide unlocks - would allow many of those things on the exceptions list to be added to account-wide achievements. More achievements would be able to unlock at the account level, not fewer.

The Undaunted and Antiquities grinds on second characters would also be far reduced vs. what it is on PTS now, since large parts of their reputation rewards come from achievements. Granting that reputation only once per account makes the grind for those skill lines worse, not better.

Tandor

Jaraal wrote: »

cynaes wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

The problem is that ZOS has always catered to the casuals, usually at the expense of the hardcore end gamers. And it’s the casual mentality of “I don’t wanna have to do all this work, give me my achievements now” that has fueled this change in how the game works.

This attitude about casual players being lazy is exactly why I have a hard time understanding most arguments against account-wide achievements. These arguments often sound very elitist and along the lines of "if you're only casual, you're enjoyment of the game probably shouldnt matter".

Although I'm more than 5.000 hours into the game, I consider myself a casual player and I don't consider myself lazy. Account wide achievements bring a host of advantages to me, that's why I'm all for them.

And yet many people have stated in this thread and others that 'I want X title for my other character, but I don't want to have to do it all over again so let me have account wide titles.' Or 'But I don't wanna have to get monster trophies on individual characters, let me lump them all together so I don't have to do as much work.'

I never said anyone was lazy (those are your words only), but the theme is that people just don't want to play the game as it's been intended for the last eight years. They want shortcuts. So let's not try to whitewash it.

That's absolutely correct, except that in your first post you hit the wrong target. It's not casual players who want to rush through alts to endgame without running the quests and achievements but instead levelling up at a dolmen and then benefitting immediately from sharing their main's achievements, that's actually the hardcore players including some, but not all, endgamers. The casuals want to play all their characters individually through the game, that's why they play multiple characters.

I'm a case in point ! I've played since launch, have 50 characters all actively played through overland questing, and I don't do any competitive gameplay such as PvP or dungeons and trials etc. I probably play on average 2 or 3 hours per day. There's no way I could be described as hardcore, I'm just a typical casual player who wants to play each character equally and individually. I don't want one character to be barred from doing certain quests because a different character has already done them, I don't want some achievements like zone angling ones barred from one character because a different character has done them, and I don't want a new character entering a zone for the first time and finding it fully revealed on the map and the zone guide half completed because other characters have been in that zone first. There's nothing hardcore in holding those views, but all of those restrictions are imposed on me currently on the PTS, and they take away a massive part of why and how I play the game. I don't want to take away the benefits that some would derive from account-wide achievements, I simply want that way of playing the game to be optional so that those who have played the game the present way for 8 years can continue to do so.

Katinas

Here is an extremely simplified MMORPG Game that has a total of 17 Achievements that grant between 5 and 50 Achievement Points, adding up to a grand total of 410. Michael plays the Game and he enjoys doing all kinds of activities, he has six characters and does not feel overly attached to any one of them in particular. It so happens to be that Michael's character B - Bobby, a Khajiit Necromancer - has the most achievement points, 110. This is nowhere near the grand total of 410 but when Michael relogs through all of his characters A to F, he finds out that with the newest Update the Developers of the Game now consider that Michael has accumulated a total of 350 Achievement Points throughout his entire Account. This is quite close to the grand total of 410 and should Michael ever wish to go for those last 60 achievement points he would not feel pushed into playing one particular character, he could do some achievements on any of his characters, or even create a new character if he so chose. Michael likes this new Update and is looking forward to the challenge of "completing" the Game and earning those last 60 missing points. Michael does not yet know what character he will play but Michael's friend Silvia she's already told him she will do it on her "main" character because that's the one character she cares about and wants all 410 achievement points on her "main character". Michael and Silvia are friends and even though they don't always share the same view about what is fun and what is more fun and what is less fun, they look forward to doing some of these achievements together! Michael and Silvia like the Game and want the Developers to make the Game fun and rewarding to play.

Now this is the sort of example I would very much want to see happen. Achievements tracked individually on each character as they are now, and additional tracking of the entire account's progress which is seen as a total account achievement points. @ZOS_Kevin this kind of Game that Michael and Silvia play is what ESO's new account-wide achievement system should look like!

CitrumTheGod

I think account wide achievements/Titles might be the greatest quality of life improvement to this game since release. Ive been a tank since day 1, but since I find it easier to raid lead as a dps all of my trifectas are on a dps with a few scattered on different tanks. This creates toxicity in the end game if I want to tank for a trifecta team that doesn't know me. Word spreads in the community quick though if you're capable or not This is a fantastic improvement with really no negatives.

OleandersOne

CitrumTheGod wrote: »

I think account wide achievements/Titles might be the greatest quality of life improvement to this game since release. Ive been a tank since day 1, but since I find it easier to raid lead as a dps all of my trifectas are on a dps with a few scattered on different tanks. This creates toxicity in the end game if I want to tank for a trifecta team that doesn't know me. Word spreads in the community quick though if you're capable or not This is a fantastic improvement with really no negatives.

If you had read any of the previous comments by concerned players who also love this game, you would have seen that this is provably false.

Elsonso

Casual vs hardcore... End game vs casual... Role play vs end game... Toxic group A vs Toxic group B... these are mechanisms for players to find reasons for things where no reasons are given by those making the decisions, and to lay blame on people who have nothing to do with the decision. [snip]
[edited for baiting]

silvereyes

Regarding "Earned by" tooltips:

• I would prefer that "Earned by" is only displayed for characters that earn the achievement on their own, preferably the full list of characters that did it on their own.
• For tooltips of achievements only earned through the efforts of multiple players, I'd prefer to just have no "Earned by" in the tooltip.
• If there is no character-level tracking to determine which are which going forward, I'd prefer to do away with the "Earned by" in tooltips entirely. A character that opens one chest out of a hundred needed for the achievement didn't earn it, and shouldn't get credit. If the information can't be trusted to be accurate, it's useless anyways, and confusing besides.

Tandor

Elsonso wrote: »

Casual vs hardcore... End game vs casual... Role play vs end game... Toxic group A vs Toxic group B... these are mechanisms for players to find reasons for things where no reasons are given by those making the decisions, and to lay blame on people who have nothing to do with the decision. [snip]
[edited for baiting]

An understanding of the different playstyles and approaches to a game such as ESO is essential for the developers to recognise how a change such as they currently propose to a game structure that has been in place for 8 years is so divisive to the playerbase. I agree that there is, of course, no justification for that to turn into toxic arguments between those different groups of players and, given the circumstances, I'm impressed at how constructive, balanced, and calm this thread's discussion has been over some 550 posts.

As for the point about no reasons being given by those making the decisions, that is something that I hope ZOS will now address as it is clear that all of us are pursuing our own points of view with not the slightest idea why this divisive measure was suddenly dropped on us after 8 years with no warning or explanation.

AlnilamE

This is Stonefalls on Live with my AD character



And this is Stonefalls on the same character on the PTS



So Delve, World Boss and Dolmen completion is being tracked via the achievements and that means you can't use the Zone Guide to actually guide your character through the zone.

Gelmir

Please don't go forward with global achievements feature. Or at least provide a way for us to track character-based achievements.

Araneae6537

(Edited to remove first two paragraphs. Main point remains below.)

I really hope that ZOS reevaluates how achievements are handled and can give the most players what is most important to them. I care about the enjoyment of players with very different goals and playstyles than me as well as the overall health of the game. If that means I must sacrifice many of my character achievements, little goals and happiness in meeting them, so be it. Make nothing have to be repeatable and no reward or even acknowledgement for doing so. BUT I must be able to interact with the world anew on each character, do any quest I want and not have NPCs interact with my character as if I’d previously done xyz. I have never even heard of an MMORPG that doesn’t at least allow that, however much may be accountwide.

RaddlemanNumber7

Kari's Hit list is not repeatable in any form. My second character to get into the Thieves Guild cistern could read the book on the table, but all the objects were already on display there and not in the places they are stolen from.

That's 100 easy TG rep and an enjoyable quest gone.

Jaraal

I've seen the terms "opt in" and "optional' used a lot regarding this issue. I can 100% assure everyone that ZOS will not create a system where part of the player base is using one mechanic and the rest another.

Whatever implementation they settle on will be game wide. It's a nice idea to suggest choices, but that's essentially a waste of time.

Danikat

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Kari's Hit list is not repeatable in any form. My second character to get into the Thieves Guild cistern could read the book on the table, but all the objects were already on display there and not in the places they are stolen from.

That's 100 easy TG rep and an enjoyable quest gone.

Things like this I think should be fixed.

In general I like the idea of account wide achievements, but I don't think it should prevent you from repeating content on different characters if you want to.

I assume it can be fixed by linking progress to a quest rather than an achievement, or by keeping it character specific.

Pearly

It would be cool to be able to wear titles on different characters, but I think there should also be some way to show that you earned a certain title on your current character. Something like a symbol next to the name of the title could work.

E.g., I got Godslayer on a different character than I'm wearing it on, so the title appears as "Godslayer". Then, I get Godslayer on the same character, so the title appears as "Godslayer*". Something more inventive than an asterisk would be better.

Wolf_Eye

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Kari's Hit list is not repeatable in any form. My second character to get into the Thieves Guild cistern could read the book on the table, but all the objects were already on display there and not in the places they are stolen from.

That's 100 easy TG rep and an enjoyable quest gone.

I'm not surprised. Kari's Hit List is a type of "Museum quest", so it's progress is connected specifically to the achievement itself just like the others.

maximusrex45

Yuualun wrote: »

I thinking about this for days now because this whole thing don't let me sleep anyway.

I try to understand why people are against two views where one works exactly as the pts and one is the old character specific view and I think it is like this:

Let's say I got the god slayer but I had to do it on another char and actually want it on my main.
But as long as there is an optional second view there is still "proof" that this character in fact never got it. That's why they also want the "earnd by:" tooltip erased.
[snip]

It's is kinda ironic in the end of the day they also don't want real account wide achievements where all the achievements belong to the account not the characters. They want all achievements on their favorite char and pretend this char did it.

I don't really know what to do with this "realization" but it kind of explains why we fail to find a common ground

Because while one side don't want to lose their individual characters, the other side want's exactly that: Erase every individuality in order to pretend all their chars did the same.

[edited for baiting]

I have read every post on this thread and have seen exactly one person ask for character names to be removed. Villainizing people who want account wide achievements isn't going to help your cause.

SerafinaWaterstar

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Been thinking about the ‘character v player’ and *who* has done the achievements.

Those who say its the player, and the individual characters don’t matter, don’t seem to understand the enjoyment & fun in mastering a different class & skill line.

[Quoted Post Removed]

[snip]

It is a response to numerous posts in this and other threads that say they can’t see see the point in repeating what they consider the ‘grind’, and don’t seem to care that all people’s different characters progress & achievements will be obliterated.

I have repeatedly said that whilst I do not like this change, & do not subscribe to the view of it being all about the player, I would like there to be a compromise, to try and find a way to sort this out in a way that allows those who do want account wide, and those that want to keep their individual character achievements satisfied.

Which shows I do acknowledge other players motivations.

[Removed response to Removed Content]

kind_hero

Pearly wrote: »

It would be cool to be able to wear titles on different characters, but I think there should also be some way to show that you earned a certain title on your current character. Something like a symbol next to the name of the title could work.

E.g., I got Godslayer on a different character than I'm wearing it on, so the title appears as "Godslayer". Then, I get Godslayer on the same character, so the title appears as "Godslayer*". Something more inventive than an asterisk would be better.

Yes, a smiley, like in "Godslayer "

I understand where you are coming from, but this opens up issues like level 1 chars having such titles, which is more like a joke. When I started playing, right from the beginning, there were no outfits, no skins, no fancy costumes, and for a while it was great, I loved ESO back then because you felt like a true Elder Scrolls hero (which always starts as a prisoner or from rags), and looking at players you could tell how much they advanced. Time has passed, we can't go back, meanwhile I am a big fan of the outfit system and have lots of costumes, but titles and achievements still represent the progress a character has made. Seeing trifecta titles on low level alts seems broken to me.

wolfie1.0.

silvereyes wrote: »

Nemezijus wrote: »

My gut feeling is that the switch to global achievements is to reduce the database management and ease up on the servers. Upon merging character-based achievements they could reduce database count up to 18-fold. I don't think that adding another layer of complexity - keeping track of global progress on a separate tab - is in any way beneficial for the servers.

It would be good to hear from ZOS as to what their goals are. All this talk of reducing server load is pure speculation.

Agreed. Until zos confirms that this is the case than it's a red herring and is not a valid excuse.

There are many other ways that zos could reduce database strain including the stopping of new account creation, reducing crafting mats, reducing sets, reducing crown store releases, not implementing a tcg, removing redundant recipes, allow larger item stacks, removing craft bags, even eliminating all trading, banning all addons, no new furnishings., etc. There are a lot of other options they could use to simplify the database.

silvereyes

maximusrex45 wrote: »

Yuualun wrote: »

I thinking about this for days now because this whole thing don't let me sleep anyway.

I try to understand why people are against two views where one works exactly as the pts and one is the old character specific view and I think it is like this:

Let's say I got the god slayer but I had to do it on another char and actually want it on my main.
But as long as there is an optional second view there is still "proof" that this character in fact never got it. That's why they also want the "earnd by:" tooltip erased.
[snip]

It's is kinda ironic in the end of the day they also don't want real account wide achievements where all the achievements belong to the account not the characters. They want all achievements on their favorite char and pretend this char did it.

I don't really know what to do with this "realization" but it kind of explains why we fail to find a common ground

Because while one side don't want to lose their individual characters, the other side want's exactly that: Erase every individuality in order to pretend all their chars did the same.

[edited for baiting]

I have read every post on this thread and have seen exactly one person ask for character names to be removed. Villainizing people who want account wide achievements isn't going to help your cause.

If y'all are talking about me, I couldn't care less about what other people see on my achievement tooltips. I just want accuracy on them, and seeing one of my writ mules get credit for something my main did 99.99% of the work for just because I logged in in a particular order is stupid. I'd prefer to have no tooltip name than one that is inaccurate.

CombatCoati

AlnilamE wrote: »

This is Stonefalls on Live with my AD character



And this is Stonefalls on the same character on the PTS



So Delve, World Boss and Dolmen completion is being tracked via the achievements and that means you can't use the Zone Guide to actually guide your character through the zone.

Can someone please explain to me how this is a desireable thing?

silvereyes

kind_hero wrote: »

Pearly wrote: »

It would be cool to be able to wear titles on different characters, but I think there should also be some way to show that you earned a certain title on your current character. Something like a symbol next to the name of the title could work.

E.g., I got Godslayer on a different character than I'm wearing it on, so the title appears as "Godslayer". Then, I get Godslayer on the same character, so the title appears as "Godslayer*". Something more inventive than an asterisk would be better.

Yes, a smiley, like in "Godslayer "

I understand where you are coming from, but this opens up issues like level 1 chars having such titles, which is more like a joke. When I started playing, right from the beginning, there were no outfits, no skins, no fancy costumes, and for a while it was great, I loved ESO back then because you felt like a true Elder Scrolls hero (which always starts as a prisoner or from rags), and looking at players you could tell how much they advanced. Time has passed, we can't go back, meanwhile I am a big fan of the outfit system and have lots of costumes, but titles and achievements still represent the progress a character has made. Seeing trifecta titles on low level alts seems broken to me.

In all seriousness, though, titles always mean way more to the person wearing them than they do to anyone who sees another player wearing them. To many people, they are already a joke. Where we have arrived now is just the inevitable destination we have been heading towards for years.

silvereyes

CombatCoati wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

This is Stonefalls on Live with my AD character



And this is Stonefalls on the same character on the PTS



So Delve, World Boss and Dolmen completion is being tracked via the achievements and that means you can't use the Zone Guide to actually guide your character through the zone.

Can someone please explain to me how this is a desireable thing?

Pretty sure it's just a bug. Patience, grasshopper.

IronWooshu

Can anyone check Cyrodiil devles for me, I usually refrain from completing them on my PVP toon so the delve boss spawn but with my main they are all complete and now no delve bosses are spawning in Cyro and I can't get my AP buff.

Wolf_Eye

IronWooshu wrote: »

Can anyone check Cyrodiil devles for me, I usually refrain from completing them on my PVP toon so the delve boss spawn but with my main they are all complete and now no delve bosses are spawning in Cyro and I can't get my AP buff.

I do not travel into Cyrodiil that often and so I am not sure I understand. Do delve bosses not respawn there if you already completed them?

IronWooshu

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Can anyone check Cyrodiil devles for me, I usually refrain from completing them on my PVP toon so the delve boss spawn but with my main they are all complete and now no delve bosses are spawning in Cyro and I can't get my AP buff.

I do not travel into Cyrodiil that often and so I am not sure I understand. Do delve bosses not respawn there if you already completed them?

Apparently not I've checked a few and ran to all boss locations and not a single one spawned.

wolfie1.0.

Salmeyna wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time, this just sucks the fun right out of the game for me. Because it removes replayability of alts and it also gives me an "easy way out" for achievements that would be more challenging my main than on some of my alts. And that lowers my motivation to play and get better. What's the point if you can just use an easy-mode class and get the same result?

I've played ESO pretty much non-stop since launch. For the first time, I'm considering stopping, because the loss if individuation of my characters completely changes the game for me.

I don't doubt that. Every major change has people happy about it and people against it. And with all the different playstyles many players have different motivations, which results in different arguments too. I am well aware that there are people who only enjoy the game if they can repeat the same thing over and over again, and there are people like me, who need to have everything. Completely different playstyles. And it's not about possibility, as someone stated. What both niche groups have in common is, that both of our groups work towards something. For my group accountwide achievements make this target seem more possible.
The grind has sucked the fun out of the game for me, this change would bring it back.
I don't choose easy-mode class, each of my chars has a backstory and a playstyle.
Fun fact, i haven't been able to finish story content with more than one character yet, because of grinding everything else.

I'm all for optionality. I don't want to take away a gameplay style from anyone, so i expect that noone keeps me from getting a change that makes me enjoy mine.
I won't threaten with stopping to buy every single CE since launch, cancelling my sub, not buying any more crown crates or leaving the game. I will keep playing, i will keep paying. I'll just be really disappointed if we don't get it.
But this is my view. I want real unlocks, with no option to re-unlock it. I don't care about details. You can have counters. You can have names. You can have markings. I don't care, i just want the possibility taken from me to grind something to reearn something that is missing. The missing part is what bugs me and makes me obsess towards a nigh-unreachable goal. And two different tabs/overview tab/whatever you want to name it is not a solution, nor a compromise.

What would be a viable compromise? What would tou propose that would appease both groups? Zos supporting two separate systems as others stated is likely not a viable option from their view point. With that assumption What would you being willing to compromise to work with the character only folks. For whom many see the overview and aggregate with character achievement tracking as their compromise?

deleted221106-002999

.

IronWooshu wrote: »

Can anyone check Cyrodiil devles for me, I usually refrain from completing them on my PVP toon so the delve boss spawn but with my main they are all complete and now no delve bosses are spawning in Cyro and I can't get my AP buff.

This is already identified as an issue by myself and others: if delves have been completed at account-level any subseuqent characters are treated as having completed it - so have to stand around and wait for boss spawns.

Without a fix the trick[edit: i.e. leaving delve bosses not done until you need the ap boost] of using undone delves for the +20%ap battle spirit bonus is gone - you'll have to wait around for the full 5+ mins for boss(es) to respawn. [edit: the ap boost is still awarded when you kill a delve boss; the bug identified is that delves show as complete at the account level so a newer character would see the delve as complete and not trigger the instant boss-respawn we currently see].

edits for disambiguation.

Bootstomp

silvereyes wrote: »

Pretty sure it's just a bug. Patience, grasshopper.

We wouldn't need to be "pretty sure" about any of this if ZOS would just weigh in on whether these issues are bugs or "features".