Overland Content Feedback Thread

casparian

baratron wrote: »

Cadwell's Silver and Gold was terrible NOT because it was too hard, but because it was too empty.

Strong agree. Seems to me they are really misunderstanding what went wrong during the 1T days. The old Cadwell's was bad because of the convoluted mess of a progression system they had back then -- there were so many hoops you had to jump through to manage to play with your friends. I can't remember anyone ever complaining that Cadwell's was too hard. But don't take my word for it! Here is a forum thread from 2015. Out of 600 players, 2% said Cadwell's was too hard, 45% said it was just right and 40% said it was too easy. And keep in mind those players weren't benefiting from the enormous levels of power creep that folks have nowadays.

A difficulty toggle, challenge banners, instances, or any of the other ideas in this thread would be far simpler to understand and navigate, wouldn't prevent players in different alliances from playing together, and wouldn't involve the level-gating that was the core problem pre-1T. The old Cadwell's system is a red herring.

Elsonso

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, when you're creeping up on 80-ish, your reflexes are shot, and you're playing over satellite with massive ping, I imagine you'll finally understand.

What does 80-ish think about you creeping up on them?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

IKYMI: Rich's Quote on Overland Content
"That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it. So it's a challenging subject and a difficult question to answer. All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."

Thanks for the quote. Indeed, I did miss it and was just about to search this thread for that information.

I agree with Rich on this subject, but I do stand by three thoughts on the subject that he does not mention...

1) While overland content should not be significantly harder, across the board, I think that Devs could apply some form of what they did in Deadlands (roving bosses) to base game. Not necessarily roaming around, but something new on the map that is challenging, but isn't one of the already-present world bosses.

2) There is a gap.. maybe cliff face is more applicable... that players have to overcome on the way to harder content. Base game and overland really don't prepare players for that, and if they don't jump on the party wagon (LFG, guilds, etc) they just get left behind.

3) I do think that there is some need for scaling up world boss and dolmen difficulty based on the strength of players participating. Dolmens can be a joke, as noted by someone above, when newbies try to participate in a dolmen dominated by players with powerful characters. As more powerful characters join, the activity should scale in progress to meet the challenge. Make Molag Bal able to respond to increased resistance on the Nirn side. The purpose is to make it so that the powerful characters do not make the dolmen experience so short that it is trivial to the new players.

Shagreth

baratron wrote: »

The old Cadwell's system is a red herring.

My thoughts exactly, I found it strange to say the least that he had to mention one of their biggest failures. A little disappointed with his response there, I mean, I understand, it's a difficult issue to tackle, but come on..

spartaxoxo

baratron wrote: »

Cadwell's Silver and Gold was terrible NOT because it was too hard, but because it was too empty.

It was both. There was a TON of feedback back in the day about it being too difficult. The devs back then collected a ton of feedback to try and save their game, and this was one of the most common complaints. When they did their soft relaunch, it addressed all of the most common pain points.

Destai

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, as many of you have noted already from Rich's interview, there are no current plans for changing the structure of overland content. It is something we will continue to look at, so constructive feedback is always appreciated.

The purpose of this thread is to collect constructive feedback so if there is an opportunity to make changes, we have feedback from players to possibly incorporate. However, if the conversation continues to be users arguing with each other, we will lock this thread. We understand not everyone will agree with the statement. However, you can disagree and voice it without pushing the buttons of other forum users.

As always, please follow the community guidelines.

IKYMI: Rich's Quote on Overland Content
"That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it. So it's a challenging subject and a difficult question to answer. All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."

So some feedback here @zos_kevin:
1. Thanks for telling us and closing the loop. However, I think it'd reflect better on ZOS and ultimately Rich if he came here and responded on these threads. He needs a presence here, it's his game.
2. When Rich says, "All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty.", can he talk about what they are looking at exactly? What does he consider major, what is being considered etc. I think it's a point of frustration - his communication feels dismissive at best. It feels like any of the nuanced solutions like roving bosses, optional sliders, etc. aren't being addressed because of the shotgun approach to answering our questions.
3. The forum community needs to better understand the parameters of the difficulty discussion. Why are threads about dungeon difficulty being treated as discussion belonging here? Dungeons are very specifically not overland. And of course, those discussions can't be linked, they're just lost after closure. Again, the community management feels callous.

baratron

SilverBride wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

Cadwell's Silver and Gold was terrible NOT because it was too hard, but because it was too empty.

It was terrible for me because it was too hard. I died a lot just fighting random mobs that were in my way as I was travelling to my quest location and it got very old very fast. This is why I only did it once on one character, and ended up leaving the game when Craglorn (which was like veteran overland on steroids) was introduced.

Struggling is not fun for a lot of players.

No, of course it isn't fun to struggle. I remember finding this game impossibly hard back in the February 2014 betas too. I was extremely upset that there was no difficulty slider as there was in Skyrim - I wanted to play on Novice difficulty and there wasn't an option for it. I also found it very difficult that - being an MMO - I couldn't pause the game while I figured out what to do next. I almost gave up before I even bought the game.

But playing with friends, I quickly learned how to play by myself.

My ability at ESO has never been the greatest. I have bad joints and in particular bad hands, and have always had to play with a controller (with a third-party app before official controller support was added). My DPS has never been more than about 30k regardless of which patch we've been on. I do best as a Healer in group content.

But we're not talking about enforced Cadwell's Silver or Gold. We're talking about the idea of an OPTIONAL difficulty slider. Something for people who feel no challenge in Overland content, and want to make it harder. Short of unslotting all my Champion Points and wearing random (non-set) white pieces of armour, currently there is no way to add any challenge back to the game.

baratron

Shagreth wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

The old Cadwell's system is a red herring.

My thoughts exactly, I found it strange to say the least that he had to mention one of their biggest failures. A little disappointed with his response there, I mean, I understand, it's a difficult issue to tackle, but come on..

I didn't write that, casparian did. Please be careful when you're trimming your quotes.

SilverBride

baratron wrote: »

But we're not talking about enforced Cadwell's Silver or Gold. We're talking about the idea of an OPTIONAL difficulty slider. Something for people who feel no challenge in Overland content, and want to make it harder. Short of unslotting all my Champion Points and wearing random (non-set) white pieces of armour, currently there is no way to add any challenge back to the game.

I fully support debuff foods or sliders and challenge banners for quest bosses because these affect no one but the player using them. The only things I don't support are increased difficulty for everyone and a separate veteran overland.

Gaeliannas

I started a new character on a brand new account from scratch... overland is a joke unless you fell asleep or went afk at a spawn. If the game had some basic tutorials about combat, weaving and whatnot, absolutely nobody would struggle with it. In random looted white/green gear and zero CP, I was destroying everything but world bosses in overland without a thought.

I was hoping to find a new challenge, but there wasn't one.

Uvi_AUT

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

IKYMI: Rich's Quote on Overland Content
"That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it. So it's a challenging subject and a difficult question to answer. All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."

That statement infuriates me so much, I am having trouble not to curse here.
[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Snamyap

Arunei wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, as many of you have noted already from Rich's interview, there are no current plans for changing the structure of overland content. It is something we will continue to look at, so constructive feedback is always appreciated.

The purpose of this thread is to collect constructive feedback so if there is an opportunity to make changes, we have feedback from players to possibly incorporate. However, if the conversation continues to be users arguing with each other, we will lock this thread. We understand not everyone will agree with the statement. However, you can disagree and voice it without pushing the buttons of other forum users.

Apologies, it's a trap I fell in myself. I should have given my opinion (which I did) and stop there, I still think overland is broken and the opposite of fun and nothing will change that, it's sad that the developers themselves can't see it.

p.s. there should be an option to unsubscribe from a thread you've participated in. (aware of the current option, but it's too general) just an idea, that would help some people from getting drawn into pointless conversations.

Obviously the devs can see it, though, given how Rich said the majority of people find the content challenging. They have access to statistics and numbers that we players can't see. It's completely valid if people think overland is too easy, but it's another thing to claim it's broken entirely and the devs are unaware.

He said "a large portion", he did not say "the majority".

spartaxoxo

He said "a large portion", he did not say "the majority".

They haven't explicitly said the word "majority" in relation to vet overland but they use the terms the average player has a good experience and huge portion in earlier interviews. This isn't their only statement.

"Balance is obviously a tricky thing. What is too easy for one player is impossible for another," he tells us. "We try to balance so that the average player can have a good experience, especially with the main story content. That's our critical path.

People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff. I get that there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things.

They also used the phrase "data don't lie" to explain not using it.

I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story

Separately we also have this statement about what the playerbase generally enjoys, separate from discussion about challenge.

The vast majority of our player base loves the exploration, loves the lore, loves the story side of things. So we focus a lot of our time and effort on that. Two of our four major updates every year are focused on story and exploration. The other two are focused on quality of life, are focused on group-oriented activities with the dungeons or adding new systems.

In addition they capped companion dps at something like 5k-10k I want to say, forget the exact number, explicitly because the majority of the playerbase is hitting that number and they didn't want companions to replace real players because they did more damage.

So it's a pretty safe paraphrase of their various statements that it's the majority of players.

Personally I don't think their actions make sense if the majority of players found it boringly easy. I think the only reason they are refusing to anything for us is because we're in the minority. Which sucks because PvPers are also in the minority, but they are doing a server re-architecture for them.

alberichtano

BIackHand wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Eldenring, TES: oblivion, skyrim, morrowind, gothic 1-3 and the majority of singleplayer games with normal not braindead eso overland difficulty are boring?

Imagine those games on eso overland difficulty. They would flop without exception.

None of those games (Elden Ring aside perhaps, I haven't played that one) did not have long, boring "hard" fights, except for a few boss enemies. Especially the Gothic games were not in that style - either you could kill your enemies fast, or you died. But then - the Gothic games had a whole other philosophy of level scaling too - not the daft "same everywhere" style that Oblivion had (which was just horrible to be honest), but more layered. Roads were safe for low levels, everything was a death trap. The more you levelled, the farther out you could come. ESO is not done like that - everything is fairly even in difficulty everywhere overland. Like it or not, that is the design philosophy of the game.

alberichtano

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Who said they have to be long and boring?

You people! You complain that it is too easy. And the only way to make it harder is to boost NPC damage and/or health, meaning longer, more tedious fights.

spartaxoxo

alberichtano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Who said they have to be long and boring?

You people! You complain that it is too easy. And the only way to make it harder is to boost NPC damage and/or health, meaning longer, more tedious fights.

Longer sure, but more interesting too because they engage more of your skills. Though that's pretty subjective.

alberichtano

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...Not everyone remain new player for long. We learn and improve to overcome harder challenges but we can’t experience them in majority of released content because it’s essentially starter areas.

Every zone is set up so that even new characters and players new to ESO can succeed in them. This is by design and has been a very successful formula.

tonyblack wrote: »

Dungeon and trials can be experienced in both settings, why is it such strange concept for some naysayers that same could be done with zones?

Dungeons and Trials are designed to give players a challenge beyond overland so it makes sense that they offer multiple difficulty levels. Technically the same could be done with overland but that doesn't mean it should be.

"has been a very successful formula" - so long as you ignore all the people who leave because they find it boring, disengaging, or otherwise a waste of time. You and your friend group enjoy it as is, and that is a good thing, everyone here benefits from more players enjoying the game, but if you aren't willing to listen to those outside your social group you won't understand that your enjoyment isn't applicable to everyone.

"that doesn't mean it should be" - but if anyone has a vested interest in playing ESO for the long term, then the long term health of the game should matter. Issues causing people to leave should matter. Such issues should be addressed, not ignored. If someone cares for this game to last as long as it can, addressing the issues and concerns of other players should be a priority, regardless of if they play the game differently. For myself, I came to ESO because I was already invested in the world, but now that very world is so off-putting to experience that I avoid it entirely.

SilverBride wrote: »

BIackHand wrote: »

Its not about how my actions effect others.

If creating a separate veteran overland splits the player base and gives out better rewards and takes time and resources that could have been used for things that benefit all players then it does negatively affect others.

BIackHand wrote: »

Nowadays you dont need anyone for overland content, doesnt matter you gear or cp. Its simply not needed...

That is one of the positive changes that One Tamriel brought. Players can now play their own way at their own pace and not be dependent on others to do simple quests and enjoy the story. But they do still group for the more challenging overland content such as World Bosses and Harrowstorms and Dragons. I group with others for these things every day because I want to, not because I have to.

"Splits the player base" which, as has been mentioned already happens, between different overland instances, players going to trials or dungeons, or players flat out leaving. What difference does it make if people are either in a dungeon or trial, offline or in a separate overland instance?

"Gives out better rewards" which is compensation for the increased time that it takes to clear the content, a concept applicable to every single piece of pve content in the game already.

"Takes time and resources" despite the fact that ZOS is making a card game. I don't know the numbers, but I would guess that the number of people who would participate in some version of harder overland, whatever form it may take, is more than those who are interested and will actively entertain the card game. There are entire years of content in zones I have skipped, if this were done I could go back and do all of it, while enjoying it, and I'm probably not alone in that.

...which will happen if every overland fight is a miniature boss fight as well. I find constant fighting to be boring, so being able to quickly dispatch uninteresting randoms on the way is a good thing. If I want hard, i try other things than doing overland.

alberichtano

Elsonso wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, when you're creeping up on 80-ish, your reflexes are shot, and you're playing over satellite with massive ping, I imagine you'll finally understand.

What does 80-ish think about you creeping up on them?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

IKYMI: Rich's Quote on Overland Content
"That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it. So it's a challenging subject and a difficult question to answer. All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."

Thanks for the quote. Indeed, I did miss it and was just about to search this thread for that information.

I agree with Rich on this subject, but I do stand by three thoughts on the subject that he does not mention...

1) While overland content should not be significantly harder, across the board, I think that Devs could apply some form of what they did in Deadlands (roving bosses) to base game. Not necessarily roaming around, but something new on the map that is challenging, but isn't one of the already-present world bosses.

2) There is a gap.. maybe cliff face is more applicable... that players have to overcome on the way to harder content. Base game and overland really don't prepare players for that, and if they don't jump on the party wagon (LFG, guilds, etc) they just get left behind.

3) I do think that there is some need for scaling up world boss and dolmen difficulty based on the strength of players participating. Dolmens can be a joke, as noted by someone above, when newbies try to participate in a dolmen dominated by players with powerful characters. As more powerful characters join, the activity should scale in progress to meet the challenge. Make Molag Bal able to respond to increased resistance on the Nirn side. The purpose is to make it so that the powerful characters do not make the dolmen experience so short that it is trivial to the new players.

1) This is an interesting and proactive idea. Unfortunately it would only apply to new areas and not old ones, so the changes would be near nil for general overland anyway.

2) Maybe they want to get left behind?

3) Yeah... I can see this idea being massively abused by griefers. Uber CP 3000 player jumps in on a Dolmen where new players are fighting, upping the difficulty radically, and then just stand there and watch the newbies get slaughtered. We have enough issues with griefers without giving them more candy to toy with.

alberichtano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Who said they have to be long and boring?

You people! You complain that it is too easy. And the only way to make it harder is to boost NPC damage and/or health, meaning longer, more tedious fights.

Longer sure, but more interesting too because they engage more of your skills. Though that's pretty subjective.

When I go overland, I want to get from point A to point B ASAP. Having epic fights with every tiger, goblin and bandit would be a nuisance, not a challange.

Snamyap

alberichtano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Who said they have to be long and boring?

You people! You complain that it is too easy. And the only way to make it harder is to boost NPC damage and/or health, meaning longer, more tedious fights.

Longer sure, but more interesting too because they engage more of your skills. Though that's pretty subjective.

When I go overland, I want to get from point A to point B ASAP. Having epic fights with every tiger, goblin and bandit would be a nuisance, not a challange.

"Coming with update 35 we will remove all hostiles from the world in order to not inconvenience a large portion of the player base. All references to wilderness will be replaced by milderness to properly reflect this quality of life upgrade."

spartaxoxo

alberichtano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Who said they have to be long and boring?

You people! You complain that it is too easy. And the only way to make it harder is to boost NPC damage and/or health, meaning longer, more tedious fights.

Longer sure, but more interesting too because they engage more of your skills. Though that's pretty subjective.

When I go overland, I want to get from point A to point B ASAP. Having epic fights with every tiger, goblin and bandit would be a nuisance, not a challange.

I mean then don't do it? Most of us want a way for it to be optional.

alberichtano wrote: »

Yeah... I can see this idea being massively abused by griefers. Uber CP 3000 player jumps in on a Dolmen where new players are fighting, upping the difficulty radically, and then just stand there and watch the newbies get slaughtered. We have enough issues with griefers without giving them more candy to toy with.

Geysers already dynamically scale and it's not abused in any appreciable way.

Saefti

I agree that the overland questing is way too easy. Melting away mobs and Defeating quest bosses with a few hits withiin 3 seconds just doesn't feel right and good.

While we can of course send away our companion and unequip items (Did not test it yet, will do once I come back home again and are able to play) it definately would be nice to have an optional thing like instanced quests or just the quest bosses or some kind of toggle or simply a debuff food which will decrease your stats for those who want having overland content more challenging and fun again.

A debuff food item might be the most simple way to acquire this in the near future. You could add like 3 items like novice, veteran and hardcore which decreases less to more stats. You wouldn't split the player base, it's quite easy to implement and I can't find anything that would speak against it.

lazarusrevives

You could add a "mayhem mode" similar to Boarderlands 3. Turn it on and it randomly buffs/debufffs your stats. It also imbues your weapon with buff attacks, meaning each hit applies a random buff or two to the enemy that scales off of their current hp.

Toggle it on or off as needed once per hour. each hour. Have it be teired. Level 1 easy buffs. Level 10 multiple harder buffs/debuffs

Taraezor

I've been playing off and on since the first weeks of launch. More off than on.

I always come back due to the fact that ESO offers the most, by far, immersive MMO/single player RPG experience along with the best sense of believability in terms of ambience and art.

Part of that is to do with the quality of questing. The Overland questing experience, including delve questing is a major feature.

Let's now consider difficulty as many people have missed something in the "not heard enough" debate.

If I want a challenge, at the level I play, I will try to solo certain dungeons. There are lists online which rank dungeons according to solo-ability. For chad players, they will do the highest end trials and good for them. For less committed players... soloing a delve boss is quite sufficient.

Baby Taraezor:
When I first started playing, a week or so after launch, I was stuck on a quest in Auridon. I was on Errinorne Isle, to the east of Skywatch. This one mob inside a crypt or vault (I forget) killed my character over and over again. I was so discouraged. I almost quit. I had thought I could play any "specialisation" and I thought that loading up on pure damage making abilities with a mix of stamina and magicka would be great. And my weapon looked cool too.

Stubbornly... I came back another day... not realising I had done everything wrong in my approach but determined to play as I really enjoyed everything alse about the game. I abandoned melee, went in with ranged fire attacks and trivialised the fight.

I am not suggesting that anyone reading this was as bad as me. But newer players will surely struggle at times.

Now that I am a better player, and having 600+ CP helps a ton too, I STILL enjoy questing. The fighting is often, but not always, trivial and not really a great way to learn to play well.

So I just want a walk in the park? Sometimes... yes! I work hard during the day. Forgive me for just wanting to blank out and relax in Tamriel. Sometimes I just potter about. A quest or two, a daily, my (non-master) writs.

But don't forget the questing is MUCH MUCH MORE THAN JUST ABOUT DIFFICULTY. It is also about lore / story immersion. From uncovering a sibling plot in Eastmarch, to assisting a scallywag khajiit help Ayrenn, to helping the captain of the Perfect Pounce (and his first mate!), or uncovering a huge dragon "plot" in Northern Elsweyr. There is so much variety and it is all to do with lore / story. It needs to be accessible to all, not just chad players

Difficult fights will distract players from crucial and entertaining lore and story. Keep the important stuff accessible to all! Allow the minority of players a chance to flex by offering hard mode trials.

And please remember that even if we are capable of more difficult content, that doesn't mean that we want to play that content. Many of us come to relax and immerse ourselves in the game world.

CP5

alberichtano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Who said they have to be long and boring?

You people! You complain that it is too easy. And the only way to make it harder is to boost NPC damage and/or health, meaning longer, more tedious fights.

In some instances, removing skills from npcs would make them more engaging to fight, since they would be spending less time casting skills that are deliberately designed to delay themselves. Those who are in favor of something being done generally seem to agree that just giving the enemies more stats doesn't make for an engaging fight, so if you're interested I'll just take this part from a thread I made trying to propose a solution that got locked in favor of this thread to consolidate feedback.

"[In regards to removing abilities from enemies that only serve to show off fancy visuals or delay the enemy from accomplishing anything]

Don't have tanks leave the fight and let their allies die, only to return a few seconds later to be killed off themselves. Instead, let them use guard more, and chains and roots, plus a healthy amount of armor to make people actually understand why armor pen is a thing.

Take the literally worthless conjurer bubble and replace it with any other summon.

Have necromancers raise multiple undead at once then use an aoe buff rather than a single target one. That would make any fight with multiple necromancers more interesting, more so if there are already some undead in the area.

Have npc healers actually heal. Give the standard healers the same aoe heal some elite mobs have, like the ones in White Gold Tower. Let them use the single target heal without cooldown unless interrupted so they don't waste time trying to do pitiful damage.

Let fire mages summon large fields of fire that deal more damage, encouraging players to work around the hazard rather than just being amused with the fire puddle placed on a random crate away from the fight.

Give frost mage shields the same trait that the druid totems in Selene's web have, encouraging ranged mobs to stack behind it for protection. The AI doesn't need to be overhauled, just passive synergy would be enough."

It's already been refuted that raw stats won't solve the problem, otherwise using poor quality gear would already be a solution. Enemies deliberately wasting their own time, all having the same level of threat and thus being equally nonthreatening, those make every encounter feel the same, and when that level of same is set to be approachable by new players no matter where they go, despite levels in a rpg providing players with more tools to solve combat situations, an experienced player ends up with a large number of cool and interesting answers, but with no question being asked.

Tyrion87

alberichtano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

enemies die so fast it's just boring now. Questing is no-where near as fun as it could be because every enemy just dies nearly instantly, it doesn't feel like there's real stakes to anything. I wish there was a way for me to increase the difficulty without ruining my build but at the same time, without ruining the fun of other players who don't want harder difficulty

And long, meaningless fights with random mobs all over the maps is not boring?

Who said they have to be long and boring?

You people! You complain that it is too easy. And the only way to make it harder is to boost NPC damage and/or health, meaning longer, more tedious fights.

Longer sure, but more interesting too because they engage more of your skills. Though that's pretty subjective.

When I go overland, I want to get from point A to point B ASAP. Having epic fights with every tiger, goblin and bandit would be a nuisance, not a challange.

Then use a wayshrine and/or try to avoid the mobs, just like everybody does in any other game where they don't want to engage with enemies. People in this game are used to having no challenge at all. At this point the nuisance is every braindead easy mob that demount us or chase us endlessly.

As for the latest dev comment - nothing can express my disappointment. High Isle is my 4th chapter in a row I don't intend to buy and even if it's included in ESO+ I'm not going to play it. Questing experience is just way too boring and not engaging at all. And it seems it will stay like this...

Callosum

An idea would be to implement debuff options during an event. Possible the explores event which does not offer tickets. The event would stay the same with no debuffs but the rewards and XP gain would increase when you applied a debuff scroll/food that you could get during the event. The rewards would increase with the amount of debuff applied and involve increased XP gain, gold, quality of gear/mats and transmutes. Maybe even let players restart zone quests during the event and increase quest rewards during the period.

It would be optional, easy to implement (compared to other options) and only for a period so that players who are against increased overland difficulty would not feel a great impact on their gaming experience. Maybe some of these players would even try it out

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO

Way to much to read everything.

I'm sure i said it in this post pages and pages ago but i still think a debuff food (or slider) would be simple to add, each player could choose his debuff level (for those wanting a little challenge up to those "leet" types who want every mob to be a raid boss), if it gets hard or boring you can click it off, etc.... Chicken leg +10 attack ---> Rancid chicken leg -10 attack

No new servers, no new modes, everything already in game just add a reversed debuff type of food or drink or whatever.

casparian

Regarding debuff foods and similar solutions: I'm highly skeptical this would work. I can already debuff myself on the live server, and many of us in this thread have tried exactly that to achieve an immersive overland experience. It doesn't work: you just end up with exactly the same fights as we have now, except they take longer. If there's anyone who wants that, they can already get it by doing things like wearing white gear and deactivating CP. Same goes for just giving enemies more stats. Just giving us an easier way to do what we already can is not going to be a real solution anymore than the existing self-debuff options are.

Doing this right would require making combat against quest NPCs exciting. The ideal outcome would be for enemies in overland and delves to behave more like enemies in dungeons. There need to be more of them, they need to put out more damage, and they need to have actually important mechanics.

I'm skeptical that the devs would implement anything like this. It would simply take an enormous amount of time comparable to a "quick fix" like a debuff food.

An easier way to do something like this would simply be to increase enemy damage and attack/cast speed. Make them attack more often/more quickly and make those attacks much more damaging when they connect. And if possible, simply place more enemies, too. This might get closer to a simple numbers tweak, which is likely all we can expect from ZOS.

Another idea that could help is to increase enemies' tether range. Right now enemies don't chase for very long, so that even if I did get in trouble I could simply move a short distance away and the enemies would reset. But imagine a fight in which line of sight is actually important (because of the above increases to damage and attack speed) and a challenge to pull off, since enemies will actually give chase. That could go a long way toward making questing and traversal for interesting and immersive, for those of us who find challenge an important part of immersion.

Deter1UK

[quote="CP5;c-7574206"

despite levels in a rpg providing players with more tools to solve combat situations, an experienced player ends up with a large number of cool and interesting answers, but with no question being asked.[/quote]

An interesting post

Making mobs a little more realistic and interesting in the way you describe would go quite a long way to making overland more engaging in combat without necessarily making it too difficult.

Callosum

casparian wrote: »

Regarding debuff foods and similar solutions: I'm highly skeptical this would work. I can already debuff myself on the live server, and many of us in this thread have tried exactly that to achieve an immersive overland experience. It doesn't work: you just end up with exactly the same fights as we have now, except they take longer. If there's anyone who wants that, they can already get it by doing things like wearing white gear and deactivating CP. Same goes for just giving enemies more stats. Just giving us an easier way to do what we already can is not going to be a real solution anymore than the existing self-debuff options are.

Doing this right would require making combat against quest NPCs exciting. The ideal outcome would be for enemies in overland and delves to behave more like enemies in dungeons. There need to be more of them, they need to put out more damage, and they need to have actually important mechanics.

I'm skeptical that the devs would implement anything like this. It would simply take an enormous amount of time comparable to a "quick fix" like a debuff food.

An easier way to do something like this would simply be to increase enemy damage and attack/cast speed. Make them attack more often/more quickly and make those attacks much more damaging when they connect. And if possible, simply place more enemies, too. This might get closer to a simple numbers tweak, which is likely all we can expect from ZOS.

Another idea that could help is to increase enemies' tether range. Right now enemies don't chase for very long, so that even if I did get in trouble I could simply move a short distance away and the enemies would reset. But imagine a fight in which line of sight is actually important (because of the above increases to damage and attack speed) and a challenge to pull off, since enemies will actually give chase. That could go a long way toward making questing and traversal for interesting and immersive, for those of us who find challenge an important part of immersion.

I don't think wearing white armor and no CP is the same as using some kind of debuff. With different debuffs your gear and CP choice would still matter which I think is an important part of making you feel like you progress. Also a debuff is not necessarily just decreased damage output but could also include increased damage taken an so on as you suggested. That being said I totally agree with what you are suggesting. I just think debuffs are our best chance of getting something because a bigger part of the player base would support it and can come with different options that fit different skill levels.