Overland Content Feedback Thread

vilio11

SilverBride wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Dungeons and Trials are designed to give players a challenge beyond overland so it makes sense that they offer multiple difficulty levels. Technically the same could be done with overland but that doesn't mean it should be.

So you have to grind many hours of fetch quest and kill many mobs in a boring and easy combat go get to the fun parts(trials and vet dungeons). So most new players that are finding the game easy do not want to waste time on a MMO with easy overland just to get to the endgame fun.

No one has to play overland to level. If all a player cares about is end game they can level by dungeons or getting in an Alkir group and power leveling, then continue their leveling and gearing in normal dungeons and Trials and arenas until they are ready for veteran modes.

So you are saying that this new players should skip the questing and story content and just go straight to old fashion grinding and killing boars for levelling and reaching the endgame?

SilverBride

vilio11 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Dungeons and Trials are designed to give players a challenge beyond overland so it makes sense that they offer multiple difficulty levels. Technically the same could be done with overland but that doesn't mean it should be.

So you have to grind many hours of fetch quest and kill many mobs in a boring and easy combat go get to the fun parts(trials and vet dungeons). So most new players that are finding the game easy do not want to waste time on a MMO with easy overland just to get to the endgame fun.

No one has to play overland to level. If all a player cares about is end game they can level by dungeons or getting in an Alkir group and power leveling, then continue their leveling and gearing in normal dungeons and Trials and arenas until they are ready for veteran modes.

So you are saying that this new players should skip the questing and story content and just go straight to old fashion grinding and killing boars for levelling and reaching the endgame?

I am not recommending anything. I was answering another poster who said:

"So you have to grind many hours of fetch quest and kill many mobs in a boring and easy combat go get to the fun parts(trials and vet dungeons). So most new players that are finding the game easy do not want to waste time on a MMO with easy overland just to get to the endgame fun."

I was showing this poster how players who do not enjoy overland and only wish to reach end game can do so.

vsrs_au

casparian wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

I know I already mentioned it in this thread, but I still think that some of the unused areas of the zones could be turned into mini-challenges for those who wish to participate, simply by adding enemies of various types and/or abilities in sufficient numbers into such areas. This shouldn't be any different to the world bosses, except perhaps a bit easier, and could probably be implemented in much the same way.

This way, everybody gets what they want, because they can accept the challenge, or simply go around it (or use wayshrines). It may not be a perfect solution, but it should be relatively easy to implement.

I don't think that would give a lot of us what we want. Like you say, this is basically world bosses 2.0. Ask yourself: why don't the already exiting world bosses suffice to make overland challenging? And why would adding more of them (in the form you suggest) in optional areas work any differently?

Actually, if you read my last post, I'm proposing something in-between world bosses and normal overland enemies in difficulty. Personally, I have major problems defeating world bosses solo, but an enemy (or group) with about 1/3 (or at most 1/2) difficulty I could probably handle.

My point was that as long as whatever difficulty system doesn’t affect quest enemies, which yours doesn’t, it will be beside the point of what most folks here are asking for. Maybe it would be good to have something intermediate between normal enemies and world bosses; I personally think that would be cool. But the main thing most of us are asking for is challenging enemies in quests.

Sorry, didn't realise you spoke for most people, I'll stop interjecting then. I thought I was providing a suggestion that might be useful.

Aardappelboom

By reading the last few pages I started realising that it's not the lenght of the battles (except for boss battles) that I'm bothered with, it's the fact we can't die.

While I'm still very much for optional sliders I think they should first up the damage then think about making the numbers higher.

I really miss the questing experience from my first playthrough, where you can still kill stuff easily but if you slip up, at least you die.

BahometZ

Long time player here.
Overland quests have been trivial for a long time. There is nothing close to a challenge.
I think that's fine, if you want a challenge, there are solo arenas, veteran dungeons and trials, and pvp.

Overland engagement would then come from the quality of the narrative. Unfortunately I feel like the last few expansions have been lacklustre when it comes to story/character. I dragged myself through Skyrim, and have stalled in Blackwood because it just doesn't grab like Morrowind or Summerset. That's fine, maybe it's just not my bag. There are a lot of things to do in this game, so I'll do those while I wait for the drive to quest again.

I honestly can't fathom the effort it would take to make all overland have a veteran level, and it just doesn't seem worth it, especially as this game is constantly looking to engage new players, who would have little to no interest or capacity to engage with it. Also, don't give the devs more work to do, when so many other aspects need attention.

I also doubt that most people who say that overland is too easy would actually engage with overland content if it was harder. The harsh truth is that people think they know what they want and also like to express opinions. I think they'd find veteran overland content more tedious, because now the annoying npcs that are guarding the four locations where you have to pick up some parts to an item to unlock a door to get another item just take more hits before they die.

Leave overland to the questers, and look elsewhere for your kicks.

If anything was to be done to make new expansion quests engaging for veteran players, introduce an option to make the quest bosses much more difficult, healthier, and do more damage, and then make the reward item gold quality.

SilverBride

BahometZ wrote: »

If anything was to be done to make new expansion quests engaging for veteran players, introduce an option to make the quest bosses much more difficult, healthier, and do more damage, and then make the reward item gold quality.

It would be very unfair to the players who may never be strong enough to successfully engage veteran overland mobs if gold quality rewards were given, especially in light of the fact that only reason given for wanting it is more challenging fights. I assume this is the "can of worms" Rich was speaking about.

And to make the distinction clear, veteran content is different because it is end game, whereas overland is the base game and needs to be equally accessible to all.

LashanW

Aardappelboom wrote: »

By reading the last few pages I started realising that it's not the lenght of the battles (except for boss battles) that I'm bothered with, it's the fact we can't die.

I agree. Even in very difficult games like Souls games or Elden Ring, fights against mobs take very little time if you are skilled and have good weapons, you can kill enemies in seconds there as well. It's just that they retaliate hard. You can't stand in front of a normal enemy and go afk for half a minute and still stay alive in those games, you'll be dead in seconds if you don't do anything to defend yourself.

SilverBride wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

If anything was to be done to make new expansion quests engaging for veteran players, introduce an option to make the quest bosses much more difficult, healthier, and do more damage, and then make the reward item gold quality.

It would be very unfair to the players who may never be strong enough to successfully engage veteran overland mobs if gold quality rewards were given, especially in light of the fact that only reason given for wanting it is more challenging fights. I assume this is the "can of worms" Rich was speaking about.

It would only be unfair if those rewards were not obtainable from somewhere else. Gold, legendary materials, and overland gear are not rare like that. You can always buy this stuff for gold.
And gold, can be easily farmed by players of any skill level, ping or other problems.
How? By doing crafting dailies with multiple characters. Every account comes with atleast 8 character slots irrc and you don't even need max level crafting skill lines, level 1 is enough. So it's accessible to all. I always have 10+ million gold by now and majority of that wealth come from crafting dailies, not from hard content. (I actually need that gold to max out my equipment for hard content)

So I don't think such rewards are unfair at all. I'd get it if it were unique mounts/ skins or personalities etc.

BahometZ wrote: »

Leave overland to the questers, and look elsewhere for your kicks.

I want to quest too tho. I just have a problem when the dangerous villains everyone talk about actually happen to be as threatening as 3 mudcrabs chilling in a corner somewhere.

Guess it's my fault for taking my time to talk and listen to the stories.

PS: I only support optional difficulty settings.

SilverBride

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It would be very unfair to the players who may never be strong enough to successfully engage veteran overland mobs if gold quality rewards were given, especially in light of the fact that only reason given for wanting it is more challenging fights. I assume this is the "can of worms" Rich was speaking about.

It would only be unfair if those rewards were not obtainable from somewhere else. Gold, legendary materials, and overland gear are not rare like that. You can always buy this stuff for gold.
And gold, can be easily farmed by players of any skill level, ping or other problems.

It is unfair because it gives an advantage to players who are powerful enough to successfully engage veteran level mobs. Why should they get something that others may never be able to unless they pay huge amounts of gold for it from these players?

The whole point of more challenging overland has been stated as wanting more engaging fights. That is reward enough.

LashanW

SilverBride wrote: »

It is unfair because it gives an advantage to players who are powerful enough to successfully engage veteran level mobs. Why should they get something that others may never be able to unless they pay huge amounts of gold for it from these players?

[snip] I literally said in the next paragraphs about crafting dailies. You get tons of gold and legendary mats from crafting dailies and the resulting surveys. There's no need to pay huge amounts of gold to those powerful players with unfair advantages.

[edited for baiting]

BahometZ

SilverBride wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

If anything was to be done to make new expansion quests engaging for veteran players, introduce an option to make the quest bosses much more difficult, healthier, and do more damage, and then make the reward item gold quality.

It would be very unfair to the players who may never be strong enough to successfully engage veteran overland mobs if gold quality rewards were given, especially in light of the fact that only reason given for wanting it is more challenging fights. I assume this is the "can of worms" Rich was speaking about.

And to make the distinction clear, veteran content is different because it is end game, whereas overland is the base game and needs to be equally accessible to all.

I don't see it as any less or more unfair than any content that gives greater rewards for harder content. We can't avoid good rewards for hard content just because it might offend people. All of us started at level 1. As it is, many veteran players find overland content eye-rolling. As Zos is spending time raising the floor for casual players to engage in veteran content, they could additionally make the floor more rewarding for veteran players.

And I firmly believe people looking for "challenging fights" on overland is disingenuous. Overland mobs are just irritants between nodes. Quest mobs are just speedhumps on the way to achievement unlocks. Making them slightly harder isn't going to give people the challenge they think they're looking for. People want to be meaningfully engaged, either through valid rewards, or a subjectively enjoyable experience, either story-wise, or mechanics-wise. I'd argue a lot of overland and expansion quests severely miss the mark here, and I don't expect High Isle to be any different.

spartaxoxo

BahometZ wrote: »

And I firmly believe people looking for "challenging fights" on overland is disingenuous. Overland mobs are just irritants between nodes. Quest mobs are just speedhumps on the way to achievement unlocks. Making them slightly harder isn't going to give people the challenge they think they're looking for. People want to be meaningfully engaged, either through valid rewards, or a subjectively enjoyable experience, either story-wise, or mechanics-wise. I'd argue a lot of overland and expansion quests severely miss the mark here, and I don't expect High Isle to be any different.

Looking for more challenging fights is what most of us in this thread have wanted, not just an excuse for better rewards. Most of us have expressed wanting to find more challenging and engaging quest content before anything else, and a lot of people have also expressed not caring if it was more rewarding. There's nothing disingenuous about wanting harder fights for me. I think maybe some just want more rewards but some of just don't want the story fights to feel anti-climatic.

Snamyap

SilverBride wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

If anything was to be done to make new expansion quests engaging for veteran players, introduce an option to make the quest bosses much more difficult, healthier, and do more damage, and then make the reward item gold quality.

It would be very unfair to the players who may never be strong enough to successfully engage veteran overland mobs if gold quality rewards were given, especially in light of the fact that only reason given for wanting it is more challenging fights. I assume this is the "can of worms" Rich was speaking about.

And to make the distinction clear, veteran content is different because it is end game, whereas overland is the base game and needs to be equally accessible to all.

There is nothing stopping people who can't handle the mobs alone to team up. I am a dedicated solo player but it is still a MMO. And I regularly help out people with world bosses as it is.

Volsers

My opinion on this:

I love the world and the stories in this game, I loved doing the quests. However I did not enjoy Greymoor, did not buy Blackwood and despite being really interested in the world, the story and the lore regarding High Isle I am considering not buying this chapter either, why? I am afraid the quests difficulty level will just make the story fall flat, just like it did with the previous chapters. I can not immerse myself in the world and the stories anymore because as previously stated in this thread the threat of the story does not align gameplay wise with how big the threat is story wise. I remember the last boss of the Elsweyr story. I just light/heavy attacked it to death while barely taking any dmg so I could artificially drag out the fight a bit to hear all his dialogue lol. It does not feel like the world is in any real danger and you ask yourself why you have to do this when they could instead just fetch the nearest stable boy to go and smack that dragon down.

Now, I am a veteran player and I am not gonna remove my CP, gear or skills because that simply takes away from the gameplay elements that makes the combat fun and it takes away your sense of progression. You might say then go do dungeons or trials or pvp, but questing was tbh what I enjoyed the most and I want to be able to enjoy that again, I want to be able to experience the amazing story and world the team at Zos has built with High Isle without the easy difficulty taking away from that world and story they built.

But why focus on veteran players instead of new players and the more casual players? Most new players who struggle will at some point be veterans and with each new expansion coming out we have new veteran players who will be annoyed at the difficulty being too easy.

With that said however. Many new players don't struggle at all and this is where the argument that "easy difficulty is for the sake of the new players" fall flat. I played with my friend who had never played the game before during the last free play event. When we got to somewhere near the end of the bleakrock Isle questline I remember he got bored (so did I) and asked when the quests are gonna become more challenging. I had to be brutally honest with him and I said never. We have not played this game again since that session. The ones who enjoy the current difficulty will stay and voice their opinion, but there is a large number who you don't hear from.

As a conclusion I am fine with people liking the overland difficulty and it is great for people with disabilities. But just as an increased difficulty would hinder them from enjoying themselves, so does the current difficulty hinder me and also MANY others from enjoying the game. It takes away your immersion in the stories which I already stated, but of course it also makes the gameplay element simply less fun, many people think it's fun being challenged, it makes you have to think more. This is why I think this game needs an optional harder overland difficulty.

(P.S The difficulty itself was not the largest problem pre one tamriel. in the vet zones you could only play with/see people above level 50 in your own alliance making them empty, same with Craglorn but apart from suffering the same problem, Craglorn forced you to group up even though you could handle the challenges and have fun solo. A sort of difficulty debuff would work wonders today. But even if you decided to bring back the vet zones a lot of the underlying problems with those would be gone now making them far more populated if they were to be added back in the present.)

vsrs_au

I'm still a relatively new player, and I'm slowly building my ability (and points) to levels where I can take on challenges that were previously out of my league. Just now, I managed to solo the Trial of the Air in the quest Trials of Rahni-Za in Craglorn, and it was a classic fist-punch yelling with glee moment for me Take that, crazy bird man! I had previously tried the same challenge, but got killed over and over again by the bird man and his crazy harpy cronies. This time, I rearranged some skills on the bar and gave Bastian some more healing-oriented skills, and it worked well enough.

That's what I like about Craglorn, which I'm still progressing through: it has some tougher challenges, but you can also bypass most of them if you wish. In other words, this zone can be as difficult as you WANT it to be. It's a pity there aren't several more zones like it.

Callosum

SilverBride wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It would be very unfair to the players who may never be strong enough to successfully engage veteran overland mobs if gold quality rewards were given, especially in light of the fact that only reason given for wanting it is more challenging fights. I assume this is the "can of worms" Rich was speaking about.

It would only be unfair if those rewards were not obtainable from somewhere else. Gold, legendary materials, and overland gear are not rare like that. You can always buy this stuff for gold.
And gold, can be easily farmed by players of any skill level, ping or other problems.

It is unfair because it gives an advantage to players who are powerful enough to successfully engage veteran level mobs. Why should they get something that others may never be able to unless they pay huge amounts of gold for it from these players?

The whole point of more challenging overland has been stated as wanting more engaging fights. That is reward enough.

This new mythic is comming with the upcomming DLC

(1 item) Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected. Current Bonus: 0 Critical Chance 0% Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience

Would you really think that it was so unfair if they made a mythic/food/scroll that gave the something like this but based on a certain level of debuff? Some could collect books at get these benefits and some of us could get a debuff instead.

peacenote

Sylvermynx wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

<snipped for brevity>

But it is too easy now. It needs to be made a little harder. Too much, and new players will get frustrated. Compromise and give options? It will result in little- used functionality which just takes away from new content which is imperative for the survival of an MMO.

But who is to determine what "a little harder" actually is? I'm not a new player - but I do have issues which prevent me from "managing" combat as easily as many: I'm old (74 soon) and my reflexes haven't been good enough for this game for many years now; twitch combat was never anything I found fun in any case; and my only available connection is satellite - with the attendant high ping which means nothing really works the "way it should work" for people with great connections.

I love this game. I spend a LOT of money on this game. I don't want this game to be completely out of reach for me - and even a "little harder overland" will probably accomplish that....

Yes, I would try it. And considering what I know about the game (and believe me, The Deadlands is already way too hard for me....) I would be devastated to discover that the "little bit harder" would mean I couldn't play any more.

Well, you've been around a while right? I was mostly thinking it should be tuned back to its intended difficulty before power creep is all. Say, what we experienced around One Tamriel ish. Can you think back to a time when you played this game and overland WAS too difficult for you? If yes, then I guess we disagree a little. If no, then I think our stances are compatible. I'm talking early game content, not new DLCs. If, five years ago, it took 4 light attacks for most characters to kill an NPC, they should fix it so it still takes 4 light attacks today (instead of one). This is obviously an over simplification but just for illustrative purposes.

Literally all I really want is so that if I'm questing with a friend, the "last boss" in a story line isn't such a pushover that it is dead before I catch up to the friend I am following! This drastically takes away from the feeling of accomplishment. I wouldn't want stuff to be so overtuned that dailies take hours or something. I just want named villains to be able to withstand more than one heavy attack before falling over.

I do think ZOS would be better served by restoring our ability to track harder repeatable content in dungeons and trials with an update to character tracking than changing all of overland. I personally am fine with going to instanced content to find harder enemies. The issue (which I don't really know how to fix) is that ESO is losing some players who want to wander and run into challenging content, solo, before they get into organized play and with less of a time commitment than an arena. Either because they don't want that or they are too new to know about it. They are turned off that overland can't provide this. I'm wondering if the addition of harder wandering mobs, with an option to be invisible to them if we want, could help the community meet in the middle. They could also add summoning stones or something which "call" harder packs of mobs amd a mini boss similar to the ones in the area you've been fighting, that count up to some kind of achievement but could be ignored. Kind of like the ones that appear in Crag and have multiple waves... I know on my healers I can't solo them and avoid them! I also really like the idea of challenge banners for the bad guys at the end of instanced quest content, with a global setting that they are on or off by default for you.

Anyway, I definitely think re-doing overland or having an alternate one and splitting the community doesn't seem worth the effort and would be counterproductive. I was just envisioning adding a tiny bit more armor or something to get the world back to where ZOS originally intended its difficulty to be, as I believe current state of the older content is not by design but just a result of power creep. So I guess my answer is ZOS would decide what is a little harder, from my perspective, but only based on decisions they have already made in the past, as opposed to tuning things to a NEW level of difficulty, which I would be against as I think it would alienate too many players.

Sylvermynx

@peacenote - overland is frequently too hard for me now. There are days when I die to "only" two overland mobs, and mostly anytime there's three, I'm not going to survive. I don't know how difficult it was at 1Tam release; I didn't start playing until June of 2018.

I can't get past quest line bosses like Mulaamnir, Vandacia etc. without many deaths. I can't remember how many on either of those, but I had to spread attempts on Mulaamnir across 3 days because it was so wearingly exhausting. That was the most miserable experience of my entire computer gaming life....

I haven't ever found the "last boss in a story line" to be a pushover - not even Molag Bal. It's pretty soul-destroying to have people putting me down for not one-shotting bosses - because that's just not possible for me, 750+ ms ping alone makes that not possible.... Though I repeat once more, optional harder, however much that is, is absolutely fine with me. Instanced overland is fine with me. I just don't care to be forced to deal with anything harder than it is now.

SilverBride

Callosum wrote: »

This new mythic is comming with the upcomming DLC

(1 item) Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected. Current Bonus: 0 Critical Chance 0% Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience

Would you really think that it was so unfair if they made a mythic/food/scroll that gave the something like this but based on a certain level of debuff?

Yes I do think it would be unfair. If the whole reason for wanting more difficult overland is so some players can feel more immersed then why do they need better rewards? Getting a gold reward doesn't make the story more believable.

And if some players feel that overland is too easy because they have gotten stronger why do they need better rewards to make them even more powerful?

As Rich stated "Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms."

Aardappelboom

SilverBride wrote: »

Callosum wrote: »

This new mythic is comming with the upcomming DLC

(1 item) Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected. Current Bonus: 0 Critical Chance 0% Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience

Would you really think that it was so unfair if they made a mythic/food/scroll that gave the something like this but based on a certain level of debuff?

Yes I do think it would be unfair. If the whole reason for wanting more difficult overland is so some players can feel more immersed then why do they need better rewards? Getting a gold reward doesn't make the story more believable.

And if some players feel that overland is too easy because they have gotten stronger why do they need better rewards to make them even more powerful?

As Rich stated "Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms."

I'll say it again, and I'll probably keep saying it but the aformentioned can is a non-issue if you don't open it.

This is, as you say correctly and I agree with you, just about immersion and it should be just that, end of story.

Effectively implementing this as an optional slider with no rewards divides the playerbase in two categories. Everyone who wants better rewards or likes it just the way it is won't play higher difficulty. Those who want the extra challenge for immersion or for fun will.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say ESO is a single player, story driven game, and let's be honest, ESO is an awesome game because it comes close to a never ending single player RPG with grouping abilities. (I love PVP but still)

Which single player game has better rewards, aside from a trophy or achievement, on higher difficulty? None, I played Baldurs' Gate and mass effect on highest difficulty because it was fun, and I lowered it when it wasn't, that's it, that's what most people are asking for.

I love the direction Rich takes with this game but honestly, if unsure about what we really want or in doubt about the return on investement of a specific feature, just start a survey and do some quantitive research. If you want to open the can of worms, ask the playerbase and collect some data to base your decisions on. It really is that simple.

CP5

BahometZ wrote: »

Long time player here.
Overland quests have been trivial for a long time. There is nothing close to a challenge.
I think that's fine, if you want a challenge, there are solo arenas, veteran dungeons and trials, and pvp.

Overland engagement would then come from the quality of the narrative. Unfortunately I feel like the last few expansions have been lacklustre when it comes to story/character. I dragged myself through Skyrim, and have stalled in Blackwood because it just doesn't grab like Morrowind or Summerset. That's fine, maybe it's just not my bag. There are a lot of things to do in this game, so I'll do those while I wait for the drive to quest again.

I honestly can't fathom the effort it would take to make all overland have a veteran level, and it just doesn't seem worth it, especially as this game is constantly looking to engage new players, who would have little to no interest or capacity to engage with it. Also, don't give the devs more work to do, when so many other aspects need attention.

I also doubt that most people who say that overland is too easy would actually engage with overland content if it was harder. The harsh truth is that people think they know what they want and also like to express opinions. I think they'd find veteran overland content more tedious, because now the annoying npcs that are guarding the four locations where you have to pick up some parts to an item to unlock a door to get another item just take more hits before they die.

Leave overland to the questers, and look elsewhere for your kicks.

If anything was to be done to make new expansion quests engaging for veteran players, introduce an option to make the quest bosses much more difficult, healthier, and do more damage, and then make the reward item gold quality.

But the issue I continue to take with this mentality is both that dungeons, arenas, and trials offer choice in how you engage with them, they aren't purely 'end game' as some have labeled them, they can provide choice, and they do. Overland, or more accurately, the entire world of tamriel, it doesn't. The largest piece of content in the game that encompasses the world that likely brought many of us to this game in particular fails to engage many players because every zone is a beginner zone, every quest line could very well be someone's first quest line.

It isn't about 'getting your kicks,' it's about having a meaningful experience in the world you enjoy. And besides, questing and story in content doesn't mandate that content must be easy. I've brought several examples of how games can incorporate meaningful gameplay to enhance the story, but like has been said many times, when the main antagonist is just a nuisance it's hard to take the entire story seriously, for some players.

SilverBride wrote: »

Callosum wrote: »

This new mythic is comming with the upcomming DLC

(1 item) Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected. Current Bonus: 0 Critical Chance 0% Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and monster kill experience

Would you really think that it was so unfair if they made a mythic/food/scroll that gave the something like this but based on a certain level of debuff?

Yes I do think it would be unfair. If the whole reason for wanting more difficult overland is so some players can feel more immersed then why do they need better rewards? Getting a gold reward doesn't make the story more believable.

And if some players feel that overland is too easy because they have gotten stronger why do they need better rewards to make them even more powerful?

As Rich stated "Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms."

Rich also said, in response to the question "Aren't you worried that the activity will take away players from the game world?" that "We’re not worried because we want the game to be full of options. The more ways players have to enjoy the world, the better."

The more ways players have to enjoy the world, the better. Why not here?

Snamyap

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@peacenote - overland is frequently too hard for me now. There are days when I die to "only" two overland mobs, and mostly anytime there's three, I'm not going to survive. I don't know how difficult it was at 1Tam release; I didn't start playing until June of 2018.

I can't get past quest line bosses like Mulaamnir, Vandacia etc. without many deaths. I can't remember how many on either of those, but I had to spread attempts on Mulaamnir across 3 days because it was so wearingly exhausting. That was the most miserable experience of my entire computer gaming life....

I haven't ever found the "last boss in a story line" to be a pushover - not even Molag Bal. It's pretty soul-destroying to have people putting me down for not one-shotting bosses - because that's just not possible for me, 750+ ms ping alone makes that not possible.... Though I repeat once more, optional harder, however much that is, is absolutely fine with me. Instanced overland is fine with me. I just don't care to be forced to deal with anything harder than it is now.

In your case I would try a character build with lots of passive healing or damage shield procs. Bahraha's Curse, Winter's Respite, Hatchling's Shell, Hexos' Ward, stuff like that. (https://eso-sets.com/)

vsrs_au

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@peacenote - overland is frequently too hard for me now. There are days when I die to "only" two overland mobs, and mostly anytime there's three, I'm not going to survive. I don't know how difficult it was at 1Tam release; I didn't start playing until June of 2018.

I can't get past quest line bosses like Mulaamnir, Vandacia etc. without many deaths. I can't remember how many on either of those, but I had to spread attempts on Mulaamnir across 3 days because it was so wearingly exhausting. That was the most miserable experience of my entire computer gaming life....

I haven't ever found the "last boss in a story line" to be a pushover - not even Molag Bal. It's pretty soul-destroying to have people putting me down for not one-shotting bosses - because that's just not possible for me, 750+ ms ping alone makes that not possible.... Though I repeat once more, optional harder, however much that is, is absolutely fine with me. Instanced overland is fine with me. I just don't care to be forced to deal with anything harder than it is now.

750+ ? Ouch! That's quite high, and I thought mine was bad. Mine typically averages about 400, and I'm in Melbourne.

Sylvermynx

@Snamyap - I do use Hexos' Ward when I can find it cheap. I don't see much overland gear, and nothing from dungeons (as I don't do group content) so I use whatever crafted seems to fit. I think I've got a tankier build sort of worked out, but I need to not have events all the time so I can mess with it!

@vsrs_au - that's satellite for you, and other than dial-up (yeah....) that's the only connection available to me. I have people tell me all the time to just "tether my phone and use that" - well.... the mobile phone doesn't work here at my house either.... Living in the back of beyond does have its benefits, but access to broadband is NOT one of them!

Snamyap

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@Snamyap - I do use Hexos' Ward when I can find it cheap. I don't see much overland gear, and nothing from dungeons (as I don't do group content) so I use whatever crafted seems to fit. I think I've got a tankier build sort of worked out, but I need to not have events all the time so I can mess with it!

@vsrs_au - that's satellite for you, and other than dial-up (yeah....) that's the only connection available to me. I have people tell me all the time to just "tether my phone and use that" - well.... the mobile phone doesn't work here at my house either.... Living in the back of beyond does have its benefits, but access to broadband is NOT one of them!

All four sets I mentioned are from overland/questing.

Sylvermynx

Yes, I know. And IF I had a lot of transmute crystals I could reconstruct the sets.

Hexnibbler

A difficulty selector is very important to reach the broadest audience possible.
This is highlighted by a known theory often refered to in video games : theory of flow (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)



In vertical progression paradigm the individual player has access to a difficulty selector through leveling and gearing. It occurs in overland.

Because the player has access to monster with higher and lower levels, someone who wants a higher challenge can simply attack stronger monster and someone who wants a lower challenge can attack a weaker one until he gets the XP and gear to move on to higher content.

At some point there are no more stronger monster, better gear or more XP to gain. So the only way to re-enable that difficulty selector is through "more content". This creates the "power inflation" issue.
To produce content fast enough to prevent players from reaching that situation imply to make it more grindy.
In turn, this "grind" create a fragmentation of the customer base where less and less people are able to reach the new content . This means that producing new content has a diminishing commercial returns.

The usual solution is through devaluation of old content that allow players to "burn through" the content faster to reach the point where the new content is available. This, again, feed the power inflation issue and devaluate the old content produced.

The alternative solution is to create "end game content", but it suffers from the exact same problems where its either too hard or too easy. It also keeps the issue of "fragmentation of the player base", where there is a diminishing return of investment for new content. Because the content itself is instrinsically bound to its difficulty, it locks itself from a sub set of the entire customer base. This does not occurs with "normal content" during the progression phase of a mmorpg where players can consume content at different difficulty level that they select individually (through more XP/better gear).

Going from vertical to horizontal doesn't change that.
What horizontal progression solves is that old content is not devalued.
As it is right now, the game has the exact same issue as a mmorpg with vertical progression where everyone has reached max level.
Simply because "power inflation" IS the mechanism that provides such a difficulty selector that enable individual to find the desired challenge.

Without such a mechanism the game content will always be either too easy or too hard.

Crafting such as mechanism for the horizontal progression paradigm is complex but I don't think it is impossible.
It would be extremely worthwhile for the game itself as a product because it would multiply the value of the existing "normal" content by a stronger quality factor in the commercial sense. And because of the horizontal paradigm, the value of new content produced would "stack up" with the old content rather than replace it.

I have given some thoughts about how it could be done in realistic ways. I consider that it is a matter of balancing the existing system, not adding new "systems" or heavy work for multiple reasons.

It helps a lot to consider an approximate abstraction of the combat system to spot the intricacies.
We can see that there are two main components to it : it's economy and it's diversity.
While the ability to select a difficulty that fits one's preference is part of the quality of the experience, the difficulty itself is strictly a quantitative matter and has nothing to do with the experience in the qualitative sense.

The diversity comes from the skills available, the monsters variety, etc. It's production work that is the domain of creative people.
This creativity must be bound ( or more pleasantly said : "must be creatively expressed") within the constraints of the combat system economy. So the question is : what are those boundaries and how to make sure that they allow for the needed individual difficulty selector mechanism.

The combat system can be described as a scoring system.

A fight is an exchange of blow between the player and the monster. The goal of the player is to block the monster attack and take advantage of idle frame to attack it himself.
So in effect, the player attack, then block waiting for the monster's attack.

The "pace" of a fight is the amount of point you must score to win. Or in other terms, how long it takes to win the fight. It can be approximated by the relation between the player DPS and the mob health bar.

The "difficulty" of a fight is the amount of mistake you can make before losing. Or in other terms, how many attack the mob makes that you fail to block are allowed. It can be approximated by the relation between the mob DPS, the player health bar and the effectiveness of "block" action.

Such a description might seems overly simple and dull but it imply many things.
First, the "pace" and the "difficulty" are different things but are related to each other.
If it takes 10 points to win but only 1 mistake to lose, it is hard.
If it takes only 1 point to win but 10 mistakes to lose, it's probably both too easy and too fast.
If it takes 1000 points to win but only 100 mistakes to lose, it's probably way too long and too difficult.


The same logic apply to telegraphed attack with higher stakes : Failing to avoid such attack costs multiple "mistakes" and taking advantage of them rewards with multiple "score" points. (I.E. a yellow spark blocked allow for a free heavy attack, followed by a round of attacks before we go back to the exchange of blows)

The value of the telegraphed system is to shift part of the difficulty of the fight into a mechanical domain where the "weight" of the characters numerical stats on the outcome of the fight is reduced compared to the player's performance itself.
In the context of horizontal system where the scaling makes everyone virtually the same in terms of power, it's becomes an even more important mechanic than it was.

One step back and it becomes clear that fighting one mob is easier than fighting two concurrently. This is because the points required to win are doubled while the mistakes allowed are unchanged.

Moreover, because the player cannot attack while blocking, there are simultaneously more opportunity to suffer from a mistake and less opportunity to score.

However if you need to score more points but have less opportunity to do so, it takes less time to kill 2 mobs consecutively than it takes to kill them concurrently.

This is what the telegraphed attacks system should allow for.
By design it is meant to open up "big opportunities" for the player and the frequency of their occurence is defined by the game. Fighting more enemies trigger more of those opportunities faster, allowing to score faster (exploiting those rewards more) and to kill more mobs faster at the cost of increased difficulty.

Balancing that aspect could serve as an individual difficulty selector. The "can of worms" about rewards is also left untouched because killing two monsters already provides twice the rewards of killing only one. It needs to be made worthwhile in terms of "time". This should be the goal. If it is mathematically impossible for people to kill 2 mobs concurrently faster than it would be to kill them consecutively through exploitation of the telegraphs*, then this difficulty selector mechanism simply won't be used. (*not talking about AoE because that would be a restriction in terms of builds.)

I heard the argument that it is "as it should be" and I strongly disagree.
Thrash mobs roles is twofolds :
- they are there to creates rythm between stronger encounters.
- they are there to adds a small difficulty inside a fight with their annoying presence.

An overland filled with thrash mobs makes no sense since they are skippable through teleportation, and it contradict the goal of horizontal progression that also aims at preserving the value of "old content".

I think that the current speed at which the mobs are killed is a relic of the vertical progression paradigm.
As explained above, to solve the issue of the fragmentation of the customer base due to the power inflation, the solution often used to regroup the different players groups so that the new content can reach them is to reduce the grindiness of "old content" so that they can burst faster through it.
However, it isn't as problematic as it is in our case since in the case of transitioning to "new content" in the vertical paradigm a) it isn't endless b) "higher level" monsters are still common in overland zones to those who wants more challenge during that process. c) the worthiness of the challenge is kept inline with the difficulty.
So I understand when someone says "it's normal". It is the norm indeed. My point is that it is an outdated norm that lost its purpose and is now hurting the game. Just like an appendicitis.

The core solution would be that bigger fights in a purely quantitative sense is a correct, natural and intuitive way of solving the lack of a difficulty selector for overland. People could actively adds more mobs to their fight or deal with the "units" (single/small groups) at their own discretion, but the current balance doesn't support this as explained above.

I also believe that the current balance is made really difficulty by the speed at which the mobs are killed right now.
I do agree with the first answer to this thread : The combat ends too quickly and yet the solution isn't simply to add more HP (although it may be part of a solution). Allowing to kill more mobs concurrently in less time than it takes to kill them consecutively at the cost of the implicit added difficulty requires that the speed to kill the smallest unit possible (a single normal mob) be sufficiently high (edit: low) to provide a margin of improvement.
And this "pace" of fight isn't the same as the "difficulty" itself as demonstrated above.

The goal being to allow everyone to be able to enjoy overland content.
The 14 years old me went through Dark age of Camelot at its release. Couldn't read english. Had no clue about what to do, how to do it, where to put points. Wiped again and again because I was lost in some god damn forest with purple Spriggarn everywhere that even solid snake n his box wouldn't have managed to avoid .
That's not the experience I wish for anyone.
But I do wishe them the experience of comfortable yet interresting fight that doesn't end in a matter of seconds with the occasional thrill of some add that wasn't expected.

TL;DR : TESO could benefits from an appendicectomy. Avoid sprigarns.

BIackHand

SilverBride wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Dungeons and Trials are designed to give players a challenge beyond overland so it makes sense that they offer multiple difficulty levels. Technically the same could be done with overland but that doesn't mean it should be.

So you have to grind many hours of fetch quest and kill many mobs in a boring and easy combat go get to the fun parts(trials and vet dungeons). So most new players that are finding the game easy do not want to waste time on a MMO with easy overland just to get to the endgame fun.

No one has to play overland to level. If all a player cares about is end game they can level by dungeons or getting in an Alkir group and power leveling, then continue their leveling and gearing in normal dungeons and Trials and arenas until they are ready for veteran modes.

Usually people dont know that the endgame is fun or not. When they start playing the game and see how fart dry easy it is, they dont endure that easy and low experience. I know dosens of people wich quit the game because that reason, before they even reached endgame. One of my friends who quit aswell in the halfway of to LvL 50, said last year to me: ''Why should i play a game where is zero challenge. Only for Lore? hell no, i better read a fantasy book instead, while chillin on the bed. I am new to the game and know nothing about it, but can easly kill everything without any effort. the whole questing experience felt like an occupational therapy. It feels like a total timewaste. Going out and mowing the lawn keeps me at the same lvl of entertainment with the benefit of being productive''

SilverBride

BIackHand wrote: »

Usually people dont know that the endgame is fun or not. When they start playing the game and see how fart dry easy it is, they dont endure that easy and low experience. I know dosens of people wich quit the game because that reason, before they even reached endgame. One of my friends who quit aswell in the halfway of to LvL 50, said last year to me: ''Why should i play a game where is zero challenge. Only for Lore? hell no, i better read a fantasy book instead, while chillin on the bed. I am new to the game and know nothing about it, but can easly kill everything without any effort. the whole questing experience felt like an occupational therapy. It feels like a total timewaste. Going out and mowing the lawn keeps me at the same lvl of entertainment with the benefit of being productive''

This may be the experience for some but far from everyone. According to Rich many players find overland challenging and there are currently no major changes planned for overland.

Onigar

With One Tamriel there is the statement "Play the game how you want".

Basically some will want harder content and some maybe want something easier.

Many games have 3 difficulty levels and players may like to repeat the game in progressive higher difficulty.

How you choose difficulty as Dev is hard when there is so much content already it would mean a major rework of everything above ground. This may not be financially feasible.

However you could introduce a difficulty scale setting that is player modifiable and perhaps it should be from the current playable content as "Easy" through steps to a "you really wont do this level of Mad Dog Difficult"

A slider approach is another choice and basically you have that sort of mechanism already in the game with the scaling difficulty as players progress through levels.

BIackHand

SilverBride wrote: »

BIackHand wrote: »

Usually people dont know that the endgame is fun or not. When they start playing the game and see how fart dry easy it is, they dont endure that easy and low experience. I know dosens of people wich quit the game because that reason, before they even reached endgame. One of my friends who quit aswell in the halfway of to LvL 50, said last year to me: ''Why should i play a game where is zero challenge. Only for Lore? hell no, i better read a fantasy book instead, while chillin on the bed. I am new to the game and know nothing about it, but can easly kill everything without any effort. the whole questing experience felt like an occupational therapy. It feels like a total timewaste. Going out and mowing the lawn keeps me at the same lvl of entertainment with the benefit of being productive''

This may be the experience for some but far from everyone. According to Rich many players find overland challenging and there are currently no major changes planned for overland.

Im sure everyone in this thread knows already what Rich said, after you repeat it countless times. With the difference that he didn't get the feedback from the players themselves, but from the data in the game that shows who has quested and who not. And that changed drastic after people played through the content with their main characters and were too lazy to get more characters through it once again. Of course he said that to answer that question. Especially with no plan on that in the future. He also said fixing lag in cyrodiil for 7 years. so that's left undecided, but how convenient for you to cling to it xD

You cant prove that this experience is far from everyone. The only people i know are you and few others that i can count on one hand, have the opinion about overland content is to easy and nobody else. The the overwhelming majority had no problem with the dificulty itself.
The reason for the dislike, was to get all their classes/chars fast and easy to max level for the endgame, after they did it with their mainchars. And the Mainreason for the people against cadwells silver/gold were empty zones because of factions were instanced.