please revert heals being group only in pvp (WE DID IT! its being rolled back!)

Wing

i dont mind heals within a group only hitting the group, thats fine even if its a dumb band aid that solves nothing, like giving a musician a spoon on the titanic and being like "NAILED IT, problem solved, next!"

but i wandered into Cyro as a fresh level 10 to look at the height of the flames on that dumpster fire after not going in for around a month.

went in as a warden with a resto staff, no sets, with the 3 base skills, first two resto skills, and the heal tree ult.

i was fully aware of the group heal changes but kind of wanted to really feel it, as i have exclusively played Cyro solo since launch i wanted to throw myself into the changes.

needless to say, its garbage.

-try to regen people around you? nope.
-cast illustrious healing on people hit by siege? nope.
-enchanted growth on noob burning to death in oil? nope.
-secluded grove ult on a group getting run down by a blob? nothing.

on the flip side

blob groups

stack on crown? yup.
spam only purge on everyone? yup.
spam radiating on everyone? yup.

[snip]

EDIT:

I want to see twitch streams of ESO devs playing pvp, stream it! show us you all playing it live, and then look us in the eye (through the camera) and explain!

[Edited to remove Bashing]

KitLightning

Wing wrote: »

I want to see twitch streams of ESO devs playing pvp, stream it! show us you all playing it live AS A SOLO PLAYER, and then look us in the eye (through the camera) and explain!

Fixed!

Wing

KitLightning wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

I want to see twitch streams of ESO devs playing pvp, stream it! show us you all playing it live AS A SOLO PLAYER, and then look us in the eye (through the camera) and explain!

Fixed!

true, if anything it might be cathartic to see the devs also getting run down by ball groups.

Raevyness

Wing wrote: »

i dont mind heals within a group only hitting the group, thats fine even if its a dumb band aid that solves nothing, like giving a musician a spoon on the titanic and being like "NAILED IT, problem solved, next!"

but i wandered into Cyro as a fresh level 10 to look at the height of the flames on that dumpster fire after not going in for around a month.

went in as a warden with a resto staff, no sets, with the 3 base skills, first two resto skills, and the heal tree ult.

i was fully aware of the group heal changes but kind of wanted to really feel it, as i have exclusively played Cyro solo since launch i wanted to throw myself into the changes.

needless to say, its garbage.

-try to regen people around you? nope.
-cast illustrious healing on people hit by siege? nope.
-enchanted growth on noob burning to death in oil? nope.
-secluded grove ult on a group getting run down by a blob? nothing.

on the flip side

blob groups

stack on crown? yup.
spam only purge on everyone? yup.
spam radiating on everyone? yup.

[snip]

EDIT:

I want to see twitch streams of ESO devs playing pvp, stream it! show us you all playing it live, and then look us in the eye (through the camera) and explain!

I dont understand the issue? Are you saying you dislike that pvp heals are group only? Or that they arent group only??
I've also run heals before in cyro but didnt really like it because:
1. Its only fun when your with a group healing
2. when you cant get into a group, you can't do much else.

Wing

Raevyness wrote: »

I dont understand the issue? Are you saying you dislike that pvp heals are group only? Or that they arent group only??
I've also run heals before in cyro but didnt really like it because:
1. Its only fun when your with a group healing
2. when you cant get into a group, you can't do much else.

currently if your solo in cyrodil you are a group, just a group of 1, yourself, so if you try to heal anyone, you cannot, though any means, you can be standing my 20 almost dead people, and spam heals, and nobody but yourself will receive healing.

if your in a group you can spam away, ball groups are unaffected in any meaningful way.

random solo players however cannot heal or be healed by anyone while they are all being zerg'd down by a ball group, that itself is purge and hot spamming to its hearts content.

AcadianPaladin

Back when I initially sort of learned my way around Cyrodiil as a casual pve player, I'd look for castles on fire and run to join in, fighting and healing those around me. That is no longer possible. With groups limited to 12, you need to be a decent pvp'er to get into them and without a group, you're not likely to ever become a decent pvp'er. Used to be easy to join a group but not anymore. As a casual pve'er I'm certainly not comfortable enough to start and lead my own group. Therefore, my healer is totally done in pvp. Though I suspect that was not the desired outcome of the smaller groups and heal only group members, that is my reality.

Raevyness

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Back when I initially sort of learned my way around Cyrodiil as a casual pve player, I'd look for castles on fire and run to join in, fighting and healing those around me. That is no longer possible. With groups limited to 12, you need to be a decent pvp'er to get into them and without a group, you're not likely to ever become a decent pvp'er. Used to be easy to join a group but not anymore. As a casual pve'er I'm certainly not comfortable enough to start and lead my own group. Therefore, my healer is totally done in pvp. Though I suspect that was not the desired outcome of the smaller groups and heal only group members, that is my reality.

Yeah right Im with you guys now. Back when I started you could heal anyone. I didnt even realise they removed that... I liked helping pugs out

Faded

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Back when I initially sort of learned my way around Cyrodiil as a casual pve player, I'd look for castles on fire and run to join in, fighting and healing those around me. That is no longer possible. With groups limited to 12, you need to be a decent pvp'er to get into them and without a group, you're not likely to ever become a decent pvp'er. Used to be easy to join a group but not anymore. As a casual pve'er I'm certainly not comfortable enough to start and lead my own group. Therefore, my healer is totally done in pvp. Though I suspect that was not the desired outcome of the smaller groups and heal only group members, that is my reality.

Maybe it was. It's a predictable outcome, so either intentional or an acceptable trade for ... whatever it is they like so much about adding a combat advantage for the people who need it least.

Narvuntien

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content.

If you want to solo... duel.

If you are a solo player in Cryodil just type lfg in group chat, if no group picks you up the next thing is to collect a PUG group from other people spamming lfg in chat.

I have had some of my best pvp running pug groups.

Pauwer

I also want to see devs playing cyro pvp like right now.

Animus-ESO

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

UGotBenched91

I’m nervous myself. I started leveling a healer for PvP but from what I hear it’s difficult to get into pug groups with the current meta.

UGotBenched91

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

@Thrusts-His-Spear

So, I haven’t been in cyrodil for a couple months but I hear with the proc set groups are still unkillable despite the healer changes?

VaranisArano

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content.

If you want to solo... duel.

If you are a solo player in Cryodil just type lfg in group chat, if no group picks you up the next thing is to collect a PUG group from other people spamming lfg in chat.

I have had some of my best pvp running pug groups.

This is a very insufficient answer to the concerns of healer players like me.

1. Cyrodiil is not just 12 man content. It supports everything from faction stacks to solo players, and only now has a hard limit of 12 players in a group. Prior to this update, this was a faction-based PVP mode where every player could heal and be healed by nearby allies. Prior to this update, Cyrodiil supported informal grouping when players went organically to important resources or keeps and could heal each other without having to stop first and group up so they can heal.

Before this, I could pop into Cyrodiil and quickly answer the call to defend a home keep from attack without having to group up. Now, I have to group up before I can do anything, and by the time I've found a group, the keep battle is probably over one way or the other. Heck, I can't even heal an ally who arrives to help me retake a resource without stopping to group up first!

2. "If you want to solo...duel."
For real?
Every other build except for healers in Cyrodiil can still solo zergsurf as long as they accept getting no heals from others. Slap on a Pale Order ring and solo zergsurf to your heart's content!
Healers?
They are forced to group up, unlike everyone else.

3. Ah, the old "If you can't find a group, just make your own!"
Look, you say your best PVP was while running PUG raids. That's wonderful! Good PUG leaders are a treasure for their faction.
Mine was not. I have led PUGs and I stopped doing it because it became very stressful and thus not fun anymore. And this was after I'd been playing with a guild raid for about a year in Cyrodiil, so I felt experienced enough to lead. Before that? Haha, no way.


So when you say this, what I hear is: "Hello, VaranisArano! You've mained a PVP healer for years, but now you have 5 choices of how to spend your PVP playtime!
A. You want to solo and decide when and where to fight and heal? "Go duel!" Oh, wait, I'm a healer. Nvm, dueling requires a different character.
B. Hope that your PVP guild is on. If it's not raid time, sorry! Try another option.
C. Join a random PUG raid who may or may not be competent and hope that what they want to do is enjoyable or at all aligned with the type of objective-focused play you enjoy (that you used to be able to do on your own time before this update.) If they aren't, try another group and hope they're better? Oh, and hope the PUG raid can beat any ball group opponents? Haha.
D. Lead a PUG raid yourself even though this is very stressful for you and not fun. Since I have the experience, I can and have done it, but leading PUGs well requires a great deal of energy, requires my performance to be fairly decent - nobody wants Crown to be crashing after all - and sometimes more time commitment than I can spare. Don't have fun, stress myself out, this is a great recipe for a good time!
E. Don't play your main healer. Play your alt Stamwarden instead.

My options suck. Its no surprise that my main PVP healer is finishing some questing, these days.


Now, maybe you meant this to be encouraging! Its not your fault that it isn't, but unfortunately ZOS' choices mean that your well-meaning advice turns into a drumroll beating out the many ways I can no longer play my healer the way I used to during my free time, but instead face a litany of bad options.

Now, if you would like to be helpful, I'd suggest that you compile some tips and tricks for new or inexperienced PUG leaders that you think makes it easier, more fun, and less stressful! If we're going to put forward "Lead your own PUG raid" as a serious solution to LFG problems, I think it behooves the players suggesting it to offer their advice, experience, and suggestions for less experienced players to learn from
And while I realize I sounded rather stressed about leading PUG raids myself anymore, I'm always happy to learn something new from the folks who lead PUGs well and have fun doing it.

Joy_Division

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

@Thrusts-His-Spear

So, I haven’t been in cyrodil for a couple months but I hear with the proc set groups are still unkillable despite the healer changes?

They are even stronger than they were before since they still can heal each other, but many of the players they farm cannot.

Pauwer

Yes, there are unkillable groups. Those who haveth a good healer and all others resto spammeth on back bar. It's the solo players and random groups that suffer, which is a high number of targets in the battlefield. In eso, pvp is the one place hostile to new players. Ultimate plan: end pvp? To sell somekind of pvp protection skill scrolls in the crown store? Who knows?

emilyhyoyeon

My old way of pvping was going in solo and jumping between random keeps & groups that I found, while using a pure heal/CC/support build. Can't really do that anymore obviously so yeah I dislike the heal changes.

Maybe it's because I play on EU but performance has not improved other than in fps. Bad lag with high fps is almost equally as bad as bad lag with low fps though imo

VaranisArano

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Down with the unkillable zerg! Long live the 12-man ball group!

Or something like that, yeah?

Reaper_00

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content if you are a healer

Fixed

Everyone else still gets to play solo if they want to.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

The change about heal ant the reduction of the max size of group are the worst change ever
Revert it back

I do not use seige anymore. Why? Because now no body can back me up. So i'll just stand there waiting for people to use theirs

Also the mahem is comming
Normally my guild has a group of 15 people running in cyro durring the mayhem. well now it going to be 12 +3 rejected people that will need to manage by themselve since they wont get any heal

kringled_1

It's probably not yet available to the OPs warden, but the 5th skill in the green balance tree (the travel vine, nature's grasp and morphs) will heal players of your faction but not your group,or at least the one morph does, I haven't tried the other.

Vevvev

As a solo player its not really effected me that much as now all my heals target me so I'm happy, BUT I've noticed a serious decline in my faction's pug survivability in the field. I've also noticed all factions struggling to keep Rams in action since they can't heal each other, which leads to you watching people get melted by boiling oil who don't have the necessary self healing and purges to stay alive. Its much harder to stay alive in Cyrodiil and this is both a good and a bad thing. Good in that defenders can more easily defend locations against pugs, but bad in that ball groups become even stronger in this current system.

Starlock wrote: »

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content if you are a healer

Fixed

Everyone else still gets to play solo if they want to.

[Removed quoted content]]

josiahva

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Umm, you do realize that if 1 person faced off against a platoon in real life that they would have no chance right? Why do you think it should be different in game? Numbers matter in war.

No, OP has good points here....it really needs to be reverted since it empowers organized groups and nerfs everyone else who just wants to skirt around large conflicts. As for server performance...that is another issue entirely.

The_Old_Goat

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content.

If you want to solo... duel.

If you are a solo player in Cryodil just type lfg in group chat, if no group picks you up the next thing is to collect a PUG group from other people spamming lfg in chat.

I have had some of my best pvp running pug groups.

If it were exclusively 12 man content, wouldn't you be required to be in a 12 man group when entering, much like a trial? Cyrodiil was designed for groups of any size, be it solo or more and the recent healing change is a slap in the face to many people that have played it that way for years.

renne

Vevvev wrote: »

As a solo player its not really effected me that much as now all my heals target me so I'm happy, BUT I've noticed a serious decline in my faction's pug survivability in the field. I've also noticed all factions struggling to keep Rams in action since they can't heal each other, which leads to you watching people get melted by boiling oil who don't have the necessary self healing and purges to stay alive. Its much harder to stay alive in Cyrodiil and this is both a good and a bad thing. Good in that defenders can more easily defend locations against pugs, but bad in that ball groups become even stronger in this current system.

Yeah, one of my favourite things to do as a healer was keeping my alliance's ram team alive in the face of strong opposition regardless of whether they were grouped with me or not. That and supporting a hard-fought keep defence. Being able to keep someone alive regardless of if their bar was green or blue, because we were all on the same side and green bars deserve support too, because they're part of my faction, even if they can't get into a group. Or you know, I can't get into a group. Or I don't want to group up because I'm there for a good time not a long time.

Waseem

My allies in Cyrodiil NEED HEALING

aetherial_heavenn

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content.

If you want to solo... duel.

If you are a solo player in Cryodil just type lfg in group chat, if no group picks you up the next thing is to collect a PUG group from other people spamming lfg in chat.

I have had some of my best pvp running pug groups.

I think all DPS should only affect the enemy player actually targeted and hit with a weapon by the soloer or someone in the group before they use a skill.

No Zerg members' aoe dps skills should count to AP/kills unless you/your group has targeted the enemy first and then they should only affect the enemy targeted at the time/or dotted previously by you or a group member.

ie No cross dpsing outside group.
ie No zerg surfing using random ground AOE's to rack up AP.

This should also apply to soloers. If they don't like it they should form a group. If DPS want their tags from aoes to count for more AP they should form a group.

The server would calculate only the damage you do when you have used your weapon to target and damage someone first (or your group does.) This would ACTUALLY remove most lag. Server calcs would be so reduced.

Have fun DPS. It will improve your game and the performance.

Let me know how you like it.
}
On a more realistic note, I healed my way to GO. It took ages so I've seen most combat changes in the past 4 years from a healers PoV. I see no improvement in performance since they stopped me healing people dying in seige, etc. I see regular healers running remade characters as dps tanks or specialist niche builds.

TL:DR NO ONE WANTS HEALERS IN PICK UP /LFG GROUPS BECAUSE EVERYONE CAN SELF HEAL/self cleanse and self sustain and group size is limited. Have you even tried LFG as a healer? You'll be in Grey Host a week waiting for a reply.

And yeah we used to pick up from zone in our guild. Every few days for nearly six months last year we did that. We have over 200 names in our discord for our little guild, just from doing exactly that. Since the changes we have stopped running zone pugs. The groups max of 12 means there is no way we are going to take a healer to help them learn the ropes when we always have that covered already.
A better solution to lag, the alleged reason for the change, might have been to make it so resto bar heals (Or just rapid regen) are self/group only and class heals work on anyone. This would at least give 'proper' heal specced new healers a chance to learn because they'd bring something to a group not available from slotting a resto bar and purge....

Daffen

josiahva wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Umm, you do realize that if 1 person faced off against a platoon in real life that they would have no chance right? Why do you think it should be different in game? Numbers matter in war.

No, OP has good points here....it really needs to be reverted since it empowers organized groups and nerfs everyone else who just wants to skirt around large conflicts. As for server performance...that is another issue entirely.

because it is a game? A game where skill actually matters. There have been real life situations where 1 man has killed 8 people with only a pistol with 8 bullets (Thomas Baker, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Baker_(Medal_of_Honor_recipient) Another example is CS:GO a skill based and tactical FPS shooter, even against professional players, people have managed to clutch a round in a 1v5 because they played better.

So why shouldnt we be able to kill 8 less experienced players alone when we are clearly way more expierenced and skilled than them. However this is almost impossible in this pvp meta because everyone is stacking proc sets and you die from armor sets, not players, but armor sets. There is no skill in using 1 skill and proccing 3 dots on 1 person and its really boring to fight with/against. Now imagine 3 players with full proc set damage trying to kill you, you cant do anything other than delay the death you will have. I miss the good old times when people had to use skills to kill people and had to follow them closely to kill them instead of just spamming 3 skills to proc them to death.

VaranisArano

Daffen wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Umm, you do realize that if 1 person faced off against a platoon in real life that they would have no chance right? Why do you think it should be different in game? Numbers matter in war.

No, OP has good points here....it really needs to be reverted since it empowers organized groups and nerfs everyone else who just wants to skirt around large conflicts. As for server performance...that is another issue entirely.

because it is a game? A game where skill actually matters. There have been real life situations where 1 man has killed 8 people with only a pistol with 8 bullets (Thomas Baker, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Baker_(Medal_of_Honor_recipient) Another example is CS:GO a skill based and tactical FPS shooter, even against professional players, people have managed to clutch a round in a 1v5 because they played better.

So why shouldnt we be able to kill 8 less experienced players alone when we are clearly way more expierenced and skilled than them. However this is almost impossible in this pvp meta because everyone is stacking proc sets and you die from armor sets, not players, but armor sets. There is no skill in using 1 skill and proccing 3 dots on 1 person and its really boring to fight with/against. Now imagine 3 players with full proc set damage trying to kill you, you cant do anything other than delay the death you will have. I miss the good old times when people had to use skills to kill people and had to follow them closely to kill them instead of just spamming 3 skills to proc them to death.

1vX exists. Of course, its generally successfully done by an experienced player against far less experienced and very disorganized opponents.

And what you ignore here is that the current healing changes should make 1vXing easier than ever. Now, its an experienced player vs far less experienced players who often aren't grouped up and thus can't heal each other.

Daffen

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daffen wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Umm, you do realize that if 1 person faced off against a platoon in real life that they would have no chance right? Why do you think it should be different in game? Numbers matter in war.

No, OP has good points here....it really needs to be reverted since it empowers organized groups and nerfs everyone else who just wants to skirt around large conflicts. As for server performance...that is another issue entirely.

because it is a game? A game where skill actually matters. There have been real life situations where 1 man has killed 8 people with only a pistol with 8 bullets (Thomas Baker, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Baker_(Medal_of_Honor_recipient) Another example is CS:GO a skill based and tactical FPS shooter, even against professional players, people have managed to clutch a round in a 1v5 because they played better.

So why shouldnt we be able to kill 8 less experienced players alone when we are clearly way more expierenced and skilled than them. However this is almost impossible in this pvp meta because everyone is stacking proc sets and you die from armor sets, not players, but armor sets. There is no skill in using 1 skill and proccing 3 dots on 1 person and its really boring to fight with/against. Now imagine 3 players with full proc set damage trying to kill you, you cant do anything other than delay the death you will have. I miss the good old times when people had to use skills to kill people and had to follow them closely to kill them instead of just spamming 3 skills to proc them to death.

1vX exists. Of course, its generally successfully done by an experienced player against far less experienced and very disorganized opponents.

And what you ignore here is that the current healing changes should make 1vXing easier than ever. Now, its an experienced player vs far less experienced players who often aren't grouped up and thus can't heal each other.

i did say that you 1vx less experienced players, however the less experienced players tend to just stack full dot sets and the healing changes doesnt matter when you cant even go offensive because you have 10 dots on you while you are kiting.

peacenote

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content.

If you want to solo... duel.

If you are a solo player in Cryodil just type lfg in group chat, if no group picks you up the next thing is to collect a PUG group from other people spamming lfg in chat.

I have had some of my best pvp running pug groups.

Besides the fact that obviously dueling is not an answer to solo players who want to help the campaign, get campaign rewards, gain AP, capture keeps and resources, or even simply focus on PvP in a PvP area where like-minded players will be...

It is also inaccurate to paint this as an issue for solo players only, even if you WERE to take the stance that solo doesn't belong in Cyro. It is a horrible change for small groups, maybe worse in some ways. I have a small guild with people I know IRL and we would sometimes group up as two or three or four and go to Cyro. We will find the action and help the bigger groups. As a healer I feel so useless only being able to help heal a couple of people in a big battle. There is no group merge feature and the groups of 12 often only have one spot open, forcing us as friends to split up or me to just accept being less effective or bringing another toon. I never pick the first "option" because I'm there to play with my friends.

Pug groups can be great and fun but that still doesn't change the fact that this greatly reduces the ways healers can be relevant in Cyro and negatively impacts dynamic teamwork and cooperation.